Kang Duk Won

[black-gi]

I have been studying k.d.w. for a year under a friend and good teacher but no-one around here teaches it or has really even heard of it. I was just curious on what other people thought of it as an art as people have an opinion on other arts.



Jason Bryant

[rmclain]

Kang Duk Won was a school started in 1957 by Park Chul Hee and Jong Pyo Hong in Korea. They were originally instructors at the Chang Moo Kwan (1951) and were students of Byung In Yoon before establishing the Kang Duk Won.

You won't hear much about Kang Duk Won as it was a smaller dojang in Korea. Plus, it is likely you aren't learning what was taught in Kang Duk Won. Many people over the past few years have been tying a name from one of the old kwans to describe the "style" of their Taekwondo without any real links to the kwan.

I could be wrong about what you are learning. If you tell me what you are learning I can let you know for sure.

R. McLain

[black-gi]

I am learning Kung Duk Kwon under Dr. Roger Greene's Assosiation. The system I am learning comes from two very distinct Korean Artists Chil Hi Park and Chung Nam. I was just curious if anyone else knows of it or does it for personal interest because most people say "never heard of it?"



Jason Bryant

[rmclain]

Most people wouldn't have heard of it in America. It was not a major kwan in Korea. It also didn't get assimilated into the KTA in the 1960's with most other kwans during that time.

Sometimes, people use an old kwan name to try and establish their "legitimacy" or background without really having link to the old kwan. Kwan Duk Won was a rare kwan that included Chuan-fa in its curriculum. Some of the forms they taught from the Chuan-fa lineage are called, Doju San, Dan Kwan, Chang Kwon, Han Son Dae Ryon. Otherwise, Kang Duk Won was teaching the same karate forms as taught in most of the other kwans following WWII. A Kwan Duk Won dojang wouldn't be teaching any modern Taekwondo forms such as Palgue, Tae Guek, Chong Hon patterns, etc. unless they are in ADDITION to the chuan-fa and karate forms.

Robert McLain

[thruster]

Dr. Roger Greene's trained in Kang Duk Won is San Jose Calif. under a man named Robert Babich. Bob trained under Dr. Norman Rha (also known as Rha Jong-nam) in San Francisco ( I think they were roommates).

Here is a picture of the Kang Duk Won Martial Arts Association Official Black Belt Test 1958. Can if you can find Dr. Rha?

So his lineage to this art would as they say authentic. :D

[thruster]

http://kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/kangdukwon2.html

[rmclain]

That photo is from my instructor's web site.

If Rha Jong-nam was in your teacher's lineage, then it has a legitimate link to the Kang Duk Won. But, I am curious if the Chuan-fa portion of the curriculum was passed along.

Which forms do you study at your school?

R. McLain

[DragonMind]

Robert, please update your profile (User CP) to put your name in the Full Name field. Thanks.

[thruster]

That photo is from my instructor's web site.

If Rha Jong-nam was in your teacher's lineage, then it has a legitimate link to the Kang Duk Won. But, I am curious if the Chuan-fa portion of the curriculum was passed along.

Which forms do you study at your school?

R. McLain

For beginners it was the Kebons and Pinans but later we had such forms called Sip Su, No Hai, Bot Sai, Um Be and Kima Shoadan. There were other forms but it was my understanding that Bob had made those up.

My background in Kang Duk Won would be from the early 70's. I trained at
Bob school in (House of Espousing Virtue) in San Jose, Ca. as a child.

[Rick Fine]

For beginners it was the Kebons and Pinans but later we had such forms called Sip Su, No Hai, Bot Sai, Um Be and Kima Shoadan. That's great! These are among the karate forms that we still practice, too.

Here's a more recent photo of Dr. Rha, with GM Kim Soo and other, former Kang Duk Won classmates:
Old Friends (http://www.kimsookarate.com/cyrnews/oldfriends.html)

[thruster]

That's great! These are among the karate forms that we still practice, too.

Here's a more recent photo of Dr. Rha, with GM Kim Soo and other, former Kang Duk Won classmates:
Old Friends (http://www.kimsookarate.com/cyrnews/oldfriends.html)

Thank you Mr. Fine for sharing this with me. I wrote Grandmaster Kim Soo a few months back about Dr. Rha to confirm it was really him and he shared the picture with me at that time.
It's really cool to have found you guys as it has brought back many great memories.

:bow:

[Lugh]

http://www.akdwa.org/

http://www.americankangdukwon.com/akdwhome.html

This is the largest martial arts school on the east coast.

[Eliz]

Thanks for providing the links.

Question: What is the difference between Palgay Forms and Palgwe Forms?

What is the difference between old and new Koryo? I didn't even know there was a new Koryo.

I am not that familiar with this particular style, so any explanation would be appreciated.

[rmclain]

Thanks for providing the links.

Question: What is the difference between Palgay Forms and Palgwe Forms?

What is the difference between old and new Koryo? I didn't even know there was a new Koryo.

I am not that familiar with this particular style, so any explanation would be appreciated.

Hi Eliz,

I think that is just a spelling difference with the form names you wrote (Palgue).

The original Koryo form was created in 1967 by the Korean Taekwondo Association and introduced at special clinics for black belts in December of that year. This form starts out with by stepping forward in a left-foot forward back stance with a chungdan sudo makki (center knifehand block), then the left foot shifts forward into a forward stance, right hand strikes throat level with a fore-knuckle strike.....

A newer version of Koryo was created in 1974 by the World Taekwondo Federation to replace the old version. I don't practice this version, but have seen it. It starts with some sort of "looking through the hands"-looking at the sky (like the form "Kong Son Kun"). Then turn 90 degrees to the left back stance with knifehand block, then side kick low then high (same foot)....

I think most people know the 1974 version of this form nowadays. The original version first published in the US in Black Belt Magazine's now-defunct Karate Illustrated Magazine in 1969. The writer and demonstrator was Master Kim Pyung Soo (Now Grandmaster), who attended the Dec. 1967 clinics, then immigrated to the US in Jan 1968. You can still find his Palgue books (first published in 1973) at many MA book stores. Lots of teachers in the US used to send their black belts in 1969-70 to learn the "new" Yudansha forms from him. http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/firstclinic.html

As a note: The Kang Duk Won didn't originally have any modern forms, such as Palgue, Tae Guek, or the Yudansha forms (Koryo, Tae Baek, Ship Jin, Jee Tae, etc.). It was a karate and chuan-fa (kwon bup) school founded in 1957.

R. McLain

[Eliz]

Hi Eliz,
...."looking through the hands"-looking at the sky (like the form "Kong Son Kun"). Then turn 90 degrees to the left back stance with knifehand block, then side kick low then high (same foot)....


Thank you for the info! The teaching seminars we attend on Koryo offer two interpretations of the ready stance. The first is as you said, the second is a break from a double lapel grab to an eye gouge.

Do you know of any links to the older form? I would be very interested in seeing it.

Thanks again.

[rmclain]

I don't know of any links that offer the video of the form, though I'm sure a quick "Google" search would result in several sources.

You could contact Grandmaster Kim Soo, from the 1969 article. He may be able to provide a copy of the original and some insight on the form. His contact info is at his web site: http://www.chayonryu.com He is very friendly and welcomes calls.

R. McLain

[rouse]

I used the new version of Koryo in testing Nov. 1972 For MooDukkwan BB test.
While in Korea, I never saw the (early version) because prior to 1971 Basai was still used for BB testing for The MooDukKwan.
The Palgue Motions were used in testing for gup grades starting in 1972 for MooDukKwan testing, prior to that the Pyeong-An Hyungs were used.
All of these changes were brought on as part of the formation of the KTA in an effort to standardize promotion testing along with the Yudansha Motions for BBs.

Johnnie Rouse

[John Pell]

As a point of information on Norman Rha I have a shodan certificate signed by him January 1962, Bob Babich and I trained together under Norman Rha in San Francisco; he was instructor in schools run by Don Buck of Kyokushin Kai.

He taught pinons and sip so, won shu; know hi; potsai. He was greatly appreciated for his knowledge and ability.

John

[Phillip Rushing]

That photo is from my instructor's web site.

If Rha Jong-nam was in your teacher's lineage, then it has a legitimate link to the Kang Duk Won. But, I am curious if the Chuan-fa portion of the curriculum was passed along.

Which forms do you study at your school?

R. McLain

Hi Mr. Mclain,

My name is Phillip Rushing and I just signed on with Budo Seek. I'm very happy to see some good questions regarding Kang Duk Won. To answer your question about Chuan-fa Forms. I'm a 7th Dan under the direct teaching of Grand Master Park Chull Hee and I have been tought and still practice the traditional forms of Kang Duk Won including the Chun-fa forms.

GradMaster Park is now in the United States and is currentley staying with me. It is a great Honor to continue to learn the traditional ways of Kung Duk Won by the great Grand Master Park Chull Hee.

Keep practicing.


Grand Master Phillip Rushing

[mvoncannon]

Hi Mr. Mclain,

My name is Phillip Rushing and I just signed on with Budo Seek. I'm very happy to see some good questions regarding Kang Duk Won. To answer your question about Chuan-fa Forms. I'm a 7th Dan under the direct teaching of Grand Master Park Chull Hee and I have been tought and still practice the traditional forms of Kang Duk Won including the Chun-fa forms.

GradMaster Park is now in the United States and is currentley staying with me. It is a great Honor to continue to learn the traditional ways of Kung Duk Won by the great Grand Master Park Chull Hee.

Keep practicing.


Grand Master Phillip Rushing

Mr. Rushing,

I would be interested in more information on the Chun-fa forms. I have not heard of them before and am currently in another branch of Kang Duk Won. Any information on them would be greatly appreciated.

[TEA]

The teaching seminars we attend on Koryo offer two interpretations of the ready stance. The first is as you said, the second is a break from a double lapel grab to an eye gouge.

The application I first learned is a bit different, but closer to the second one. I learned it as a break from a double handed two wrist grab, i.e. someone grabs both of your wrists, you pull your hands up towards your chest then push forwards and up towards the underside of your attacker's jaw as you drop your weight. I learned a similar technique in Aikido and someone who studies Tai Chi says that they have a similar technique in one of their forms.

[rmclain]

Mr. Rushing,

I would be interested in more information on the Chun-fa forms. I have not heard of them before and am currently in another branch of Kang Duk Won. Any information on them would be greatly appreciated.

Hello,

Grandmaster Park Chul-hee (co-founder of Kang Duk Won) studied under Yoon Byung-in. Yoon Byung-in studied chuan-fa while growing up in the Chang chun area in Manchuria during the 1920's & 30's. In 1938 he was sent to college at Nihon University, Tokyo, Japan and studied with Toyama Kanken at the Shudokan.

The following is a link to the story of Yoon Byung-in's background. http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

One of Grandmaster Park's early students, Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo, was able to track down Yoon Byung-in's family and find out what happened to him following the Korean War (he disappeared), and where he learned Chuan-fa.

R. McLain

[Phillip Rushing]

Mr. Rushing,

I would be interested in more information on the Chun-fa forms. I have not heard of them before and am currently in another branch of Kang Duk Won. Any information on them would be greatly appreciated.

Mr. Voncannon,

Kank Duk Won has three Hyungs from Chun-fa
Chang Quen, Pal Gi Kwon and To Jo San

I will follow up later with more info regarding Chun-fa. Chun-fa is not a style of martial arts, it a term for martial arts like Kwon bup.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Phillip Rushing

[mvoncannon]

Mr. Voncannon,

Kank Duk Won has three Hyungs from Chun-fa
Chang Quen, Pal Gi Kwon and To Jo San

I will follow up later with more info regarding Chun-fa. Chun-fa is not a style of martial arts, it a term for martial arts like Kwon bup.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Phillip Rushing

Mr. Rushing,

Excellent! Yes, this is very helpfull. I would like to know more on these forms, and I believe you have provided enough for me to start the research.

[rmclain]

Mr. Voncannon,

Kank Duk Won has three Hyungs from Chun-fa
Chang Quen, Pal Gi Kwon and To Jo San

I will follow up later with more info regarding Chun-fa. Chun-fa is not a style of martial arts, it a term for martial arts like Kwon bup.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Phillip Rushing

I'd like to add to this:

Chang Kwon (Chang Quen in the above post) was actually two forms, an offensive form and defensive form. These forms could be practiced alone or with a partner as a sort-of "pre-arranged sparring form."

Doju San (To Jo San) was actually a two-person form (like Chang Kwon), but to my knowledge nobody knows the defensive side anymore - Master Park stopped teaching it.

In addition, Kang Duk Won also had: Dan Kwon, Cheun Yun Kwon (I'll check the spelling on this), Tai Jo Kwon, Kum Gang Kwon (not the WTF form), and Hanson DaeRyon (though this is more of an offensive/defense form drill).

"Kwon Bup" is the Korean translation of "Chuan-fa."

Mr. Rushing:
You should ask Master Park about the forms, Dan Kwon, KumGang Kwon, Taijo Kwon.

Also, mention to him that Grandmaster Kim Soo met with Yoon Byung-in's family and found out what happened to him (yoon Byung-in) after his disappearance in August 1950.

R. McLain



R. McLain

[Phillip Rushing]

I'd like to add to this:

Chang Kwon (Chang Quen in the above post) was actually two forms, an offensive form and defensive form. These forms could be practiced alone or with a partner as a sort-of "pre-arranged sparring form."

Doju San (To Jo San) was actually a two-person form (like Chang Kwon), but to my knowledge nobody knows the defensive side anymore - Master Park stopped teaching it.

In addition, Kang Duk Won also had: Dan Kwon, Cheun Yun Kwon (I'll check the spelling on this), Tai Jo Kwon, Kum Gang Kwon (not the WTF form), and Hanson DaeRyon (though this is more of an offensive/defense form drill).

"Kwon Bup" is the Korean translation of "Chuan-fa."

Mr. Rushing:
You should ask Master Park about the forms, Dan Kwon, KumGang Kwon, Taijo Kwon.

Also, mention to him that Grandmaster Kim Soo met with Yoon Byung-in's family and found out what happened to him (yoon Byung-in) after his disappearance in August 1950.

R. McLain



R. McLain
Thanks Mr. Mclain you are correct Chuan-fa is a direct transation meaning Kwon Bup.
It is great to continue the art of Kang Duk Won.
Thanks for the continued info.

Phillip Rushing

[aplonis]

That style sounded familiar and made me think of GM Carl Stolberg who has visited our org a time or two. Anyway, turns out KDW is his style so I found a link to his org nearby in Muskegon MI for your further reading, etc. I have seen him a couple of times, and been introduced once, but that is all.

Kang Duk Wan in Michigan (http://www.muskegontaekwondo.com/history.htm)

I know that GM Carl Stolberg is well respected in this area by other orgs, and also by our TKD org's own GM, Monte Beghtol, 9th Dan (Kukkiwan) and 10th Dan (UMAHoF). So it is very likely worth a read to anyone interested in KDW.

Gan Uelsi Starling
Kalamazoo MI

[rmclain]

That style sounded familiar and made me think of GM Carl Stolberg who has visited our org a time or two. Anyway, turns out KDW is his style so I found a link to his org nearby in Muskegon MI for your further reading, etc. I have seen him a couple of times, and been introduced once, but that is all.

Kang Duk Wan in Michigan (http://www.muskegontaekwondo.com/history.htm)

I know that GM Carl Stolberg is well respected in this area by other orgs, and also by our TKD org's own GM, Monte Beghtol, 9th Dan (Kukkiwan) and 10th Dan (UMAHoF). So it is very likely worth a read to anyone interested in KDW.

Gan Uelsi Starling
Kalamazoo MI

Thank for sending this link. I looked at the requirements on his web page. He must start instructing Kang Duk Won requirements after 1st Dan (the requirements list only went up to 1st Dan). I did notice a mention of "seven step" in the Gup level drills requirements. There is a seven-step chuan-fa drill (like Hanson Dae Ryon) from the Chuan-fa lineage of the Kang Duk Won. I wonder if it is the same thing?

R. McLain

[MadMonk108]

Mr. Rushing,

My advisor in college was a student of Park Chulhee several years back. Is GM Park still staying with you? It would be a great surprise for him if I could put them back in touch with each other.

[Phillip Rushing]

Mr. Jaeger,

GM Park is back in Korea now, He might be back in February 07.

[YounWha]

Mr. Jaeger,

GM Park is back in Korea now, He might be back in February 07.

I sent you a PM - can you email me or pm me.
younwha_ar@yahoo.com

[prophet224]

So since Chuan fa is a general term, does anyone know what specific style of Kung Fu Yoon Byung-in studied? I have looked for information on these forms (mentioned through this post), just trying to track down traditional schools and I've not had much luck.

[rmclain]

This is a good question. Yoon Byung-in's family relayed that he studied under a Mongolian instructor when they lived near Chan Chun, China. There is still a large Korean community there. They didn't specify if the instructor moved to the area from Mongolia or he just happened to be of Mongolian decent.

One of Yoon Byung-in's students, Hong Jong-pyo (co-founder of Kang Duk Won), had a student that is a doctor. About 15 years ago this student went to Chan Chun, China for a business trip. He reported that there was a group of people practicing the form, Jang Kwon, in a park almost identical to the version he learned from Hong Jong-pyo. He said they called the style, Pal Guek Moon. Roughly translates to "Eight Eternal Gate."

Most of the Chuan-fa forms from this lineage move around quite a bit, which indicates it was influenced from a Northern style. But, there is one form, Palgi Kwon, that doesn't move around much and is more "rooted" indicating it may have come from a southern chuan-fa style.

http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

R. McLain



So since Chuan fa is a general term, does anyone know what specific style of Kung Fu Yoon Byung-in studied? I have looked for information on these forms (mentioned through this post), just trying to track down traditional schools and I've not had much luck.

[falcon325]

Mr Black-gi, My name is Sean McIntosh, not to worry about whether anyone has heard of it or not, I'm one of Dr. Greene's students from way back in the early 80's. The system, or style, he taught was and is a very effective style of martial art. It probably is one of the most complete styles I've ever been fortunate enough to have studied. After he decided to relocate I was unable to follow, and of course in life, most of us never stay in one place long enough. I continued my studies under Master Kiyoshi Yamasaki, you might remember him from the famous exploits of someone a little more famous. He was, in fact the same guy who taught Arnold Swarzenegger how to use the sword in the first Conan movie, he also played in the movie itself, a scene where he teaches Conan (Arnold) how to use the sword.

[TonyU]

Mr. McIntosh,
Please be cognizant of the fact that the original post was more than 8 years ago and the last post more than 4 years ago.
Also, if you take the time to look at Mr. Bryant's (black-gi) profile you'll see he hasn't been active on this board since 2007.

Other than that welcome to Budoseek and why don't you stop in to The Welcome Mat (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?99-The-Welcome-Mat) and introduce yourself.