Goju Ryu Kata

[Gae-Bek]

I know that almost all katas are different from school-to-school, and some schools do certain kata, while others do not...

But is there an actual list of the official Goju Ryu Katas?

By official, I mean that any school [claiming to be traditional Goju Ryu] will almost always do these forms.

If there is, is there a Goju world organization (governing-body) that verifies this?

Many thanks,

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

Gekisai Dai Ichi
Gekisai Dai Ni
Sanchin
Saifa
Seiunchin
Shisochin
Sanseiru
Sepai
Seisan
Kurarunfa
Suparinpei
Tensho

That is the base system . Japanese Goju Ryu also uses 10 Taikyoku :
Jo Dan Ichi & Ni
Chu Dan Ichi & Ni
Ge Dan Ichi & Ni
Kakie Uke Ichi & Ni
Mawashi Uke Ichi & Ni

The Meibukan also has I believe 5 or 6 kihon Kata that they teach . The Shorekan has a 3rd Gekisai , 2 Gekiha , 2 Kakuha , & a Hakutsuru Kata all developed by Seikichi Toguchi Sensei . Then there's American Goju , or USA Goju , as taught by Peter Urban , they use some extra Kata , that he developed . But the base system is above .

[potentpoefie]

Yip, that is the base.

That is what my school teaches. We also have then Gekisai Dai Sun and Gekisai Dai Sun Ni. (open handed kata's)

[potentpoefie]

Talking about Goju kata.....

With our "All styles" competitions we have Shitei kata. Safai and Sepai.

Well, I am all for standardizing kata's and all but we were until the beginning of this year not part of the tournament scene. Now all of the sudden our yellow belts need to know Sepai (traditionally our 3rd dan kata) just to go to round 2.

What does it help teaching a youngster a 3rd dan kata. Some if not most of the traditional application falls away with these shitei kata's. Looks nice but is merely a dance with no real practical applications.

I don't know maybe I am just to conservative.

What are your opinions on the subject?

[potentpoefie]

That is weird. (the fact that where you come from it is a green belt form)

Here the nidans learn it since they need it to grade to sundan.

Funny how the same style can be so different in syllabus.

[Markaso]

Gekisai Dai Ichi
Gekisai Dai Ni
Sanchin
Saifa
Seiunchin
Shisochin
Sanseiru
Sepai
Seisan
Kurarunfa
Suparinpei
Tensho

That is the base system . Japanese Goju Ryu also uses 10 Taikyoku :
Jo Dan Ichi & Ni
Chu Dan Ichi & Ni
Ge Dan Ichi & Ni
Kakie Uke Ichi & Ni
Mawashi Uke Ichi & Ni

.

This is the same as in the Dojo that I trained in , in Kyoto but I am not sure on the variations on the Taikyoku. We had Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake uke and Mawashi but there were no numbers after them. Now I am training in Kyushu and in this Dojo they do not do the Taikyoku.

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

These 8 are Sheitei , or Seitei Gata , which are standadized Kata for competition . They have nothing to do w/ traditional Goju Ryu , as far as being part of the curriculum . Though Saifa & Seipai were taken from Goju . I believe recentlly they added a few more kata to the list , as well . It was on some other discussion groups .

[Markaso]

These 8 are Sheitei , or Seitei Gata , which are standadized Kata for competition . They have nothing to do w/ traditional Goju Ryu , as far as being part of the curriculum . Though Saifa & Seipai were taken from Goju . I believe recentlly they added a few more kata to the list , as well . It was on some other discussion groups .


Mr. Somers

I believe that the Shitei Gata are really just referring to the Kata that one must perform for a multi-Ryu Ha tournament.At least that is what I observed over here. :toast:

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

Yep , they are used within WUKO/WKF competition . I heard they are teaching this Sport type of Karate in the public school system over there , now , could you confirm that ?

David

[Markaso]

Yep , they are used within WUKO/WKF competition . I heard they are teaching this Sport type of Karate in the public school system over there , now , could you confirm that ?

David


I know that there are many high schools, all over Japan, that have Karate clubs as well as other varius Budo clubs. They, the Karate clubs are more geared for the tournaments and Kumite. There may even be some junior high schools with clubs but I am not sure on that one. as for elementary schools ..... probably none. There are however, many Dojos that teach many age groups and are focused on tournaments as well as none tounament orientated Dojos.

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

I was ck'ing out your profile , & seen you are a Goju stylist , as well . Was wondering what group you are with ?

[Markaso]

I was ck'ing out your profile , & seen you are a Goju stylist , as well . Was wondering what group you are with ?

Mr. Somers

I was in Kyoto for about 12 years and I was lucky to be introduced to a Sensei who trained under Gogen Yamaguchi Sensei for a while in Tokyo. Now I am in Kyushu, going on 4 1/2 years now, with another Sensei. Both as so am I are with the Go Jyu Kai. The Dojos name that I belonged to in Kyoto was Genbukan.
:toast:

[Markaso]

I use the English language in my classes.

Well if that is your and your students native language then that is what you should use to communicate your thoughts and ideas.




Karate-Do has been here in the United States for longer than it was in Japan


I am not much of a historian and you may be correct that other forms of Karate have been there in the U.S. for longer than Japanese Karate. Such as Korean Karate, Chinese Kenpo, and other forms of empty hand martial arts. But they are mostly put under one name and that is Karate as it is a very internationally understood word for martial arts.





The use of our alphabet to spell their sounds is simply spelling sounds any way. They use conji characters which if they where used here I doubt there would be much traffic of American Martial Artist reading this thread. Chris McLean

You are probably right that there would not be many American Martial Artists reading this if it were written in Japanese or for that matter any other language other than English. By the way it is Kanji...... not canji. Yes the romanization is a a lot easier than trying to read the Japanese writting.







It is just my oppinion based on my expieriance in Karate-Do, Judo, Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, and Isshin Ryu that many people use the Japanese termanology in an attempt to feel surperior to others.

In my case this is not nor will it ever be true. I have been practicing since 1987( with a teacher), minus two years, in only one style and in one country (Japan) with Japanese teachers( Sensei) and I use the words that I am used to as do you. I teach Karate at a major University here in Japan and I use both English as well as Japanese as the club is both Japanese and multi-national. I do make many mistakes switching from English-Japanese and back again.




They cant perform Kata or kumite as well as they speak Japanese.

In my case My Kata and Kumite are much better than my Japanese.




I teach it and expect my students to know certain terms but to me it is more important that they be able to execute Proper Technique than be able to pronounce Waza.

Just a little advice ...... if you don't mind. If your students ever travel to Japan to train you might want to help them out and teach them the Japanese terms that you use in English as I have not run into many Japanese Sensei (teachers) that speak enough English to get all of their ideas accross to native speakers.



If I where practicing in Japan I would use their language out of respect

You may not have much choice on that one as it would be hard to communicate with someone if you nor they could understand eachother




I feel here we should use our language out of respect to our country.

I think that respect for ones country is great but I think respect for ones students really applys more to this discussion. You can not teach them in a language they do not understand.




The USA has been dominating international cometition for years we have earned the right to use English termanology.

Maybe so, but It is not something that you need to earn the right to. As I said above you need to use the language of the land in order to get you ideas accross to your students. But they should be taught the proper terms in the original language of that style for future knowledge.





We have also earned the right to have discovered new things about Karate-Do based on 60 years of it being practiced here.


Everything changes but someone should not claim it is theirs unless it is. I have been shown many Bunkai(practical applications) to Katas as well as Oyo (hidden applications) and they do change too.





The Japanese came up with all kinds of new terms and changed the Kata after just a few years of it being practiced in Japan.


Yes and that led to some other styles (Ryu-ha) as well. I have heard the same waza (technique) called by different names. Sort of confusing but I just live with it.




So I choose to say technique rather than Waza.
Chris McLean

We all choose what we do and do what we must.

[Markaso]

Mr. McLean

I wish to never lose my student status and I am sure I never will. I was shocked when my Sensei, many years ago(in Kyoto) referred to me as Sensei when talking to his students that I was teaching ........ sort of a mile stone that I was not ready for.

I agree that one can not know all about ones art. That is impossible. I also think that one who claims so has not had much experience through practice of other Sensei.

One of the things that I go by is that I try to learn from everyone ..... even the ones that I am teaching. I love being taught!

[tamiko2]

You asked:
"If there is, is there a Goju world organization (governing-body) that verifies this?"

I could not find a response to your question. I am wondering if there actually is a "governing body" that can "verify" or "regulate" these "senseis" that state they were taught by soandso.

Any help (in regards to the question of governing body) will be appreciated.

Tamiko

[Markaso]

Tamiko

For Go Jyu Ryu in Japan there is the Go Jyu Kai that governs the associations members. As for the world...... I think other Go Jyu Ryu Dojo follow that body and are conneted. There is the Zen Ku Ren that is made up of a few different Ryu-Ha that governs them as well. Sort of confusing. As for a body to check with as to Who taught who ....... that one could be done and it would take a long time to find out. It would also be very difficult. If all participants belong/ed to the Go Jyu Kai and they hold their rank under the Go Jyu Kai it could be varified......but it would not be easy. Hope ths helps.

[swdw]

First,

The list of kata in the first post is the list used by Miyagi when he died. Prior to WWII, you can throw out the Gekisai.

Next, Shitei come from the WUKO list at http://www.wuko-karate.org/eng/rules/rules_kata.pdf
Take a look at the rules and the included list. You should not have to teach a yellow belt a dan level kata unless the promoters have their head up their butts.

BTW, Seitei kata or Seikei gata (as some spelled it) are the set of standard kata used by the Zen Nihon Batto Do Renmei and are often used in iai competition.

My gripe in WUKO is the goju kata usually need to be performed in a "Shito-ryu ish" fashion to get better scores. This has lead to some rather snide remarks on the part of some senior Goju people that started their training in Okinawa in the 50's, 60's and early 70's.

Last,
There is a loose affiliation of Goju schools in Okinawa, but I don't know if you'd call it "official".

[Chunmonchek]

Last,
There is a loose affiliation of Goju schools in Okinawa, but I don't know if you'd call it "official".


Hi Sam,

How have you been? I trust all is well with you and yours.

As you know, over the years there were various Goju Ryu and Okinawan Karate organizations, federations and commitees in Okinawa, on some of which, Masanobu Shinjo served as President or Chairman. Over time many of these organizations evolved, merged, disappeared, etc.

I think more important than the organizations, was the mutual respect and relationships that some of the old Sensei had for each other. I know one American Okinawa Goju pioneer whose Sensei sent him to another Goju Sensei for grading.

Best regards,

Chris

[swdw]

Hi Sam,

How have you been? I trust all is well with you and yours.

<SNIP>

I think more important than the organizations, was the mutual respect and relationships that some of the old Sensei had for each other. I know one American Okinawa Goju pioneer whose Sensei sent him to another Goju Sensei for grading.

Best regards,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Things have been very well. We've moved into the new building and now have a gym to train in.

How are you guys doing? Did Kayo's lyme disease calm back down once he got back east?

I asked Catherine for your and Ed's e-mail address but she's been in the process of moving and said it would probably be mid September before she'd be back in touch.

Lee Gray Sensei came up and did a seminar last weekend. I was able to get several people from different organizations to come and we had a blast. Few had ever been through the kind of workout an old school instructor trained in Okinawa does and there were some pretty exhausted people (including me, but I was expecting it). I'd invited Catherine, but I don't think she got my e-mail. Due to Lee's work interfering, we had to move the date 3 times.

It's funny you should talk about the mutual respect and relationships the old Sensei had cuz Lee noticed that in the group that showed up. We knew each other and were all from different lineages. He noticed no one was trying to prove anything and we all got along. He commented on that to everyone and encouraged us to keep it up.

I had a conversation with Kimo Wall on that very same subject earlier this year and he had the same comment you did about the old attitudes. Hopefully we can have the same relationship among the people out here.

In the process of all this we're even convincing Marc "Animal" Mac Young that there's some very effective karate out there.

As an aside- I've got to meet and talk with Sochin on this board. He's also a personal friend of Marc's and someone that's a great person and excellent martial artist too- even if he is a beaver chasin' Canadian :wink2:

Anyway, could you PM me with your and Ed's e-mail?

For others on this list, I was invited to the Chi-I-Do summer training in Colorado Springs this year where I met Chris. I felt very welcome buy the group and by Kayo and felt almost at home. The attitude of mutual respect Chris talks about was exhibited by all the senior people from the Chi-I-Do organization. There were people from other Goju organizations there too who were treated just as well as I was.

So if someone here gets a chance to meet or work out with any of them, take advantage of it.

Oh and to toot Chris' horn, he's one of those people that you know is top notch and all you have to do is see him walk across the floor. He came in on Saturday and as he crossed the floor to the locker room, it was obvious he'd trained HARD and was GOOD. Didn't even have to see him in a gi to pick up on that fact.

[Chunmonchek]

Oh and to toot Chris' horn, he's one of those people that you know is top notch and all you have to do is see him walk across the floor. He came in on Saturday and as he crossed the floor to the locker room, it was obvious he'd trained HARD and was GOOD. Didn't even have to see him in a gi to pick up on that fact.


Sam,

Thanks for the kind words. It took years and years of daily practice, watching and learning from some of the best, and after thirty-something years of diligent practice, I can finally walk without being embarassed. :laugh: Now if I could only get my Goju in shape:eek:

It was great training with you at your Dojo. It was heart-warming to see real old way Okinawa Goju Ryu still being practiced.

I really enjoyed Colorado, and hope to be back there soon.

I will shoot you a pm with my email addy. Ed just changed his internet provider and his email addy, but I will get it for you.

Chris