Sorros
02-28-2004, 19:15
This is a responce I got on another forum, other than just making baseless accussations. It is one of the most intelegent replies to the subjusvt that I have heard yet.
sorros
Sorros, Ya know... ordinarily, I just get real irritated when someone brings this topic up as it is nothing but an invitation to a meaningless and pointless argument of which there can be no actual resolution.
I am a more traditional practitioner. I /have/ trained in systems which are similar to MMA, though I haven't trained in MMA specifically.
My standpoint has always been thus:
Of course MMA stylists tend to do /very/ well against traditional stylists... the MMA are designed specifically to counteract the majority of general forms that trained fighters take. The philosophy..."He is good at punching and kicking, so grab him and tie up his arms and legs" ...is certainly not rocket-science, nor is it that difficult to understand.
There is also something to be said for training-methods: the fact that the MMA guys go to class, work on drills for a while and then they get on the mat with each other and they actually put their stuff into action (Class after class after class after class) is another important factor.
By way of contrast, I go to my class (TCMA- Internal) and I work on lots of conditioning (and I mean 'lots.') and I practice forms. So, even though I know that Pi Chuan (Metal Fist from Xing Yi), for example... is a devastating fighting technique, capable of being used against all manner of attacks and also capable of mangling an attacker in seconds and blah-dee-blah-dee-blah, there are two other things that I am also fully aware of...
1. I'm not training in such a way as to learn to do use Pi Chuan as the devastating, head-crushing, world-shattering technique that it theoretically is. At least, not yet. (we'll get to the 'not yet' theory in a moment)
and...
2. Pi Chuan /is/ quite useless when I'm laying on my back with all my limbs securely pretzel-fied by some MMA-gorilla. Even though, I myself am a very big guy with lots of muscle,... when pitted-against someone who spends hours upon hours, day after day learning to tangle someone up on the ground and pound their face until they black-out... I just won't have the tools once he/she gets me down there.
Now... hold-up a sec.
Ordinarily, Sorros, here's what I'd do upon reading your post. I'd say..."No, you're wrong. My stuff just takes longer to learn effectively. I have to master the forms and then I can be taught applications. It does me no good to learn to apply a movement or technique that I can't actually perform yet. So, I have to invest the neccessary years in perfecting the movments themselves before I can start applying them against an opponent. So, while you guys might be learning to tie me up and stuff now... In (x-amount of years) you'd better watch out, 'cause I'll be like some Jet Li movie-character on a heavy dose of Liquid Schwartz."
As I said, that's where I would normally go with this.
This time however, I'm not.
You have raised a point that, despite a lot of limp-wristed objections to the contrary /is/ a damned good one.
Do I believe everything I've said about taking time to learn the movement and all it's implications before you learn how it's applied?
Yes.
Do I believe that anyone ever seems to actually get to that point?
...I'm starting not to.
Fellow TCMA-ers, my apologies. But, I must ask... where is the proof?
You are all quite correct in saying that just because someone isn't taught how to use their stuff effectively, doesn't mean it's not effective. That's absolutely correct. I believe that Shaolin (to use the commonly accepted focus of this discussion) is an effective system of fighting arts. Or, at least, I believe that it can be.
My question (which causes me a more and more troubled state-of-mind the longer I consider it) is WHERE, WHEN and BY WHOM are these arts practiced...
...as...
...fighting...
...arts?
All I keep hearing on the matter, from anyone and everyone, is /theory/.
Theoretically, there are people somewhere in the world who do more than just go through forms all their lives.
Theoretically, there are people somewhere in the world who actually practice in free-sparring to apply the various principles of their TCMA skills.
Theoretically, there's a TCMA practitioner somewhere in the world who can fight.
Ok, yes... as I said, I do believe that if these arts are learned as combat arts, they can and will be effective ones.
But, the way most of us train would be equivalent to say...
...this situation:
Hey, Sorros, or International_Waters, or Mofogie... how good would you MMA, Wrestling or Shootfighting guys be in a fight if all you ever did was go through the /form/ of a given grappling principle?
Hey, I_W...What if there were a wrestling class somewhere, in which the coach only had his guys practice bridge-lifts and mount-reversals "theoretically" against an imagined opponent of approximately their own size and weight?
Hey, Sorros... how effective would Krav be if you went to class and only 'pretended' that you had a partner and moved through the theoretical logic of a given arm-bar or knife-defense?
Answer: About as effective as TCMA.
But, these types of training-scenarios would not mean that there was no merit to Wrestling or Krav or MMA... not at all. Just that the merit in question would not be getting implemented in the training and would, subsequently be going to waste.
Now, I challenge all of my fellow TCMA-ers on CK to tell me...
Where is it? Where is the combat-applied TCMA training?
That's where I want to train.
Where are the videos of the guys who actually know how to use (not just "perform" but actually USE) Praying Mantis and actually manage to hold their own against Marsh in a challenge match? (and not just throw some weak, little peewee-league soccer-kick before getting tied-up and broken in half.)
I'll tell you this much... I'm tired of 'Traditional Chinese Martial Arts.' Spinning your wheels isn't fun. But, I do Love the logic and rationale of these systems. What I want now is a different definition of "TCMA."
I want Traditional COMBAT Martial Arts.
I want to learn to /use/ my stuff, not just to put on a good show for the judges.
Where do I go?
Friends, I don't mean to offend you. Ok? I honestly don't.
I'm not some MMA-guy spouting attitude like a hundred others have before me. I'm a TCMA-guy, just like you.
This is a legitimate question and I think we should all be getting just a little bit tired of seeing it dodged and avoided.
Don't just tell me that it's out there.
Tell me where.
Will you?
CAN you?
_________________
Peace ~ Light ~ Love ~ Honor
sorros
Sorros, Ya know... ordinarily, I just get real irritated when someone brings this topic up as it is nothing but an invitation to a meaningless and pointless argument of which there can be no actual resolution.
I am a more traditional practitioner. I /have/ trained in systems which are similar to MMA, though I haven't trained in MMA specifically.
My standpoint has always been thus:
Of course MMA stylists tend to do /very/ well against traditional stylists... the MMA are designed specifically to counteract the majority of general forms that trained fighters take. The philosophy..."He is good at punching and kicking, so grab him and tie up his arms and legs" ...is certainly not rocket-science, nor is it that difficult to understand.
There is also something to be said for training-methods: the fact that the MMA guys go to class, work on drills for a while and then they get on the mat with each other and they actually put their stuff into action (Class after class after class after class) is another important factor.
By way of contrast, I go to my class (TCMA- Internal) and I work on lots of conditioning (and I mean 'lots.') and I practice forms. So, even though I know that Pi Chuan (Metal Fist from Xing Yi), for example... is a devastating fighting technique, capable of being used against all manner of attacks and also capable of mangling an attacker in seconds and blah-dee-blah-dee-blah, there are two other things that I am also fully aware of...
1. I'm not training in such a way as to learn to do use Pi Chuan as the devastating, head-crushing, world-shattering technique that it theoretically is. At least, not yet. (we'll get to the 'not yet' theory in a moment)
and...
2. Pi Chuan /is/ quite useless when I'm laying on my back with all my limbs securely pretzel-fied by some MMA-gorilla. Even though, I myself am a very big guy with lots of muscle,... when pitted-against someone who spends hours upon hours, day after day learning to tangle someone up on the ground and pound their face until they black-out... I just won't have the tools once he/she gets me down there.
Now... hold-up a sec.
Ordinarily, Sorros, here's what I'd do upon reading your post. I'd say..."No, you're wrong. My stuff just takes longer to learn effectively. I have to master the forms and then I can be taught applications. It does me no good to learn to apply a movement or technique that I can't actually perform yet. So, I have to invest the neccessary years in perfecting the movments themselves before I can start applying them against an opponent. So, while you guys might be learning to tie me up and stuff now... In (x-amount of years) you'd better watch out, 'cause I'll be like some Jet Li movie-character on a heavy dose of Liquid Schwartz."
As I said, that's where I would normally go with this.
This time however, I'm not.
You have raised a point that, despite a lot of limp-wristed objections to the contrary /is/ a damned good one.
Do I believe everything I've said about taking time to learn the movement and all it's implications before you learn how it's applied?
Yes.
Do I believe that anyone ever seems to actually get to that point?
...I'm starting not to.
Fellow TCMA-ers, my apologies. But, I must ask... where is the proof?
You are all quite correct in saying that just because someone isn't taught how to use their stuff effectively, doesn't mean it's not effective. That's absolutely correct. I believe that Shaolin (to use the commonly accepted focus of this discussion) is an effective system of fighting arts. Or, at least, I believe that it can be.
My question (which causes me a more and more troubled state-of-mind the longer I consider it) is WHERE, WHEN and BY WHOM are these arts practiced...
...as...
...fighting...
...arts?
All I keep hearing on the matter, from anyone and everyone, is /theory/.
Theoretically, there are people somewhere in the world who do more than just go through forms all their lives.
Theoretically, there are people somewhere in the world who actually practice in free-sparring to apply the various principles of their TCMA skills.
Theoretically, there's a TCMA practitioner somewhere in the world who can fight.
Ok, yes... as I said, I do believe that if these arts are learned as combat arts, they can and will be effective ones.
But, the way most of us train would be equivalent to say...
...this situation:
Hey, Sorros, or International_Waters, or Mofogie... how good would you MMA, Wrestling or Shootfighting guys be in a fight if all you ever did was go through the /form/ of a given grappling principle?
Hey, I_W...What if there were a wrestling class somewhere, in which the coach only had his guys practice bridge-lifts and mount-reversals "theoretically" against an imagined opponent of approximately their own size and weight?
Hey, Sorros... how effective would Krav be if you went to class and only 'pretended' that you had a partner and moved through the theoretical logic of a given arm-bar or knife-defense?
Answer: About as effective as TCMA.
But, these types of training-scenarios would not mean that there was no merit to Wrestling or Krav or MMA... not at all. Just that the merit in question would not be getting implemented in the training and would, subsequently be going to waste.
Now, I challenge all of my fellow TCMA-ers on CK to tell me...
Where is it? Where is the combat-applied TCMA training?
That's where I want to train.
Where are the videos of the guys who actually know how to use (not just "perform" but actually USE) Praying Mantis and actually manage to hold their own against Marsh in a challenge match? (and not just throw some weak, little peewee-league soccer-kick before getting tied-up and broken in half.)
I'll tell you this much... I'm tired of 'Traditional Chinese Martial Arts.' Spinning your wheels isn't fun. But, I do Love the logic and rationale of these systems. What I want now is a different definition of "TCMA."
I want Traditional COMBAT Martial Arts.
I want to learn to /use/ my stuff, not just to put on a good show for the judges.
Where do I go?
Friends, I don't mean to offend you. Ok? I honestly don't.
I'm not some MMA-guy spouting attitude like a hundred others have before me. I'm a TCMA-guy, just like you.
This is a legitimate question and I think we should all be getting just a little bit tired of seeing it dodged and avoided.
Don't just tell me that it's out there.
Tell me where.
Will you?
CAN you?
_________________
Peace ~ Light ~ Love ~ Honor