sen

[steve watts]

Hi Everyone
I've been lurking rather than posting recently. But now I'm trying to get to grips with the philosophy of SK, particularly the difference between 1) Sen and 2) Go No Sen. I’ve got the Fukudoku-hon Textbook but I'm still not sure of the difference. Can anyone (Tony?) out there explain the difference to me?
Thanks
Steve Watts

[Cebu]

There you are Tony....I had wondered where you went...

For what its worth, I have always seen a great deal of intelligence and conviction in yours posts. You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on some issues, but that doesn't keep me from thinking I would find you a good friend in real life.

With that caveat, I don't think it was so much what you said, but more likely how you said it. It is one thing to have a lively debate with a differing viewpoint and entirely another to fall like a sack of bricks onto the ears of your listeners.

You have obviously educated yourself well, perhaps to a degree far above many folks here. We all come from different backgrounds, different cultures, differing educations, different abilities to rationalize and reason.

From my understanding, the art that you study has a "hard" component and a more "soft" side to it as well. Perhaps if your presentation of the truths you wish to convey had the same balance (truth or fact = "hard" and the delivery or tone = "soft") I believe there would not have been the same fallout.

I hope that you will receive this as constructive criticism and in the spirit that it was meant. I wish that you continue to share the experinence of your art here with us. I find it, and you as a person, intriguing.

Respectfully :bow: ,

John

[Webmaster]

Mr. Kehoe was not banned because he tells the truth or because his opinions differ from others here at BudoSeek!. This is NOT an attempt to silence him or because we cannot handle the truth. Mr. Kehoe's account was suspended (now banned permanently) because he cannot seem to express him opinions and give arguments to support his opinion without insulting his fellow members. I have asked him repeatedly to tone down the insults and to stop calling into question the intelligence of his fellow members just because they have a different opinion. He has not only failed to do so, but in his correspondence to me, he refuses to do so. I will not allow such deliberate disregard for the rules and common civility to exist here at BudoSeek!. Even the suggestion that he show his fellow members the common courtesy and respect due another living being was rebuffed by Mr. Kehoe. This conduct is not only unacceptable as a member of BudoSeek!, but particularly by someone that was placed in a trusted position as a moderator.

Civil debate is welcome. Uncivil debate is not.

[John Bennett]

Kehoe sometimes had interesting things to say.

It's a shame that he never learned the part of martial arts where they teach humility and respect. It's my understanding that Japanese culture places much value on such things, especially politeness. Perhaps I've been misinformed or none ever rubbed off on him.


Humility is based on self-respect. Those who do not have it do not respect themselves.
Humility allows the self to grow with dignity and integrity – not needing the proof of an external show.
Humility allows one to be great in the hearts of others.
Humility creates an open mind and recognition of the strengths of the self.

[Sochin]

Here is one bit that my Sensei, Richard Kim (deceased) wrote about this topic:

Kim:


The three stages in the martial arts are called "Sen," with three distinct levels depending upon the skill and development of the martial artist. The three levels are as follows:

1. Sen - the highest realm on a physical attack; able to defend against any attack, in a totally effective manner.

2. Go no Sen - Late comes Ahead (Ato no Saki). Yagyu Jubei, a legendary swordsman.whose father founded the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (the Yagyu style of Shinkage Ryu) founded the concept of “Go no Sen.” At this level of skill, a martial artist deals with an attack just at the point of being initiated. The attack is stopped before it actually forms into an attack. It is receiving the attack mentally and hitting back. In Go no Sen, your opponent always makes the first move physically and mentally, then your move, which comes after, is ahead of your opponent’s move; hence, Late comes Ahead. This is the stage of Masters of the Art.

3. Sen no Sen - this is the level of Ainoke ('mutual escape', rather than 'mutual death'). It means that the martial artist stops the thought of attack the moment it occurs in the opponent, and that the opponent thinks of something else. Therefore there is no attack, just a mutual passing through. This is a state.generated only by the highest masters of the art and meditation. One must pass through the state of “Kensho” (looking into oneself) and into a higher state of enlightenment to achieve this state. This is the goal of all true Masters of the Art.

[Ewok85]

Excellent post Sochin!

To sum it up:
Sen - Defence against any attack that has happened (blocking a kick/punch etc etc)

Go no Sen - Stopping an attack before it happens. The best example of this I've seen involved a man holding a short wooden stick. As he brought his arm up the defender moved in and took him down.
http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/kempo.htm
Follow the link and its video 7. Video 6 also shows go no sen.