baby black belts

[Wulf]

why is it that in some dojos of any style of martial arts there's little kids with black belts? that's probably not the case in every single dojo but it is in some. i recently read a letter in a MA magazine from a man who was saying the same thing. he really had to struggle to earn his black belt when he was younger and he was 18 when he finally got it. he was also told that he was the youngest black belt in britain. now i go on to read a story in a newspaper about a 7 year old (or probably younger, i can't remember too well) kid who has a black belt in tae kwan do!! what's up with this?!

[Andrew Green]

why is it that in some dojos of any style of martial arts there's little kids with black belts? that's probably not the case in every single dojo but it is in some. i recently read a letter in a MA magazine from a man who was saying the same thing. he really had to struggle to earn his black belt when he was younger and he was 18 when he finally got it. he was also told that he was the youngest black belt in britain. now i go on to read a story in a newspaper about a 7 year old (or probably younger, i can't remember too well) kid who has a black belt in tae kwan do!! what's up with this?!


It's great publicity. Parents love it.

I got a age rule too. I don't give black belts.... ok any belts, to anyone over 13-14. No belts in the adult classes, they're just not needed.

The kids get them, and more often then not never put it on again until they get another.... then same thing.

Belts only mean what you make them mean. If you want yours to mean min 18 years old, min 7 years training, that's fine. But others will make them mean 2 years training (Not min, just 2 years) no age requirements.

At the end of the day all they are is a retention and motivational aid that has no meaning whatsoever outside of your own school, apart from impressing people by telling them you are a 28th degree grandmaster who is 4th in line to some ancient lineage...

But that 7 year old got the school an article in the paper. An article saying how great that school is for kids. You can't buy publicity like that. Maybe they are teaching crap, maybe not. Belts can't tell you that. Problem occurs when people start trying to compare 7 yr old with 2 years black belt to 28 year old with 8 years black belt. They aren't the same, and shouldn't be.

[SRK85]

Thats why there should be a belt system with junior black belts. I think for someone to get their blackbelt they should be at least 8-10. And to get to 2nd degree they should be 13.


Steven Korab

[Fire_Wings]

I help coach at the school I attend, (Andrew's school) we recently had a promotion. It was a younger boy who often got upset when he lost a sparring-type drill to a more experienced student. Since both are fairly young, niether was going to hold back power.

The deal was that for this kid to get his yellow belt he had to lose and not get upset, and still try his best. He ended up getting it, and a great deal of self improvement in the process.

[Chrysophylax]

SRK85,

wow... this may be a matter more of my personal oppinion so please do not take this personally... but...

I couldn't agree with you less. I believe that at that age (8-10), a child does not have the capability (physically or otherwise) that they should be even considered for a black belt. At that age, time restraints being the only consideration, a child would still have to start at about 4 yrs of age. At 8-10, children still do not have the co-ordination necessary to complete the requirements.

Additionally, there are the aspects of responsibility, morals and ethics. Can a child of 8-10 fully grasp these concepts enough to be trusted with such great responsibility.

It is for similar reasons that, in the USA, that people are not allowed obtain their driver's license before the age of 16, or buy a gun before the age of 21. And even then, some are denied these privilages, despite having spent the time, money, and effort for such responsibilities.

I, personally, would feel very uncomfortable allowing a child below the age of 13 to go beyon Blue-belt (mid way to black, in my school).

[ppko]

In my school you have to be at least 18 to recieve a black belt from me I dont give black belts to anyone younger but they do recieve Jr. black belts
JOoe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

[Cliff Hargrave]

Thats why there should be a belt system with junior black belts. I think for someone to get their blackbelt they should be at least 8-10. And to get to 2nd degree they should be 13.


Steven Korab

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff Burger]

Kiddy black belts is Mc Dojo.

You have to be 16 at our school.
So far the youngest balc belt I have had was 19 and he started with me at age 9.

Jeff

[ipscshooter]

SRK85,
I couldn't agree with you less. I believe that at that age (8-10), a child does not have the capability (physically or otherwise) that they should be even considered for a black belt. At that age, time restraints being the only consideration, a child would still have to start at about 4 yrs of age. At 8-10, children still do not have the co-ordination necessary to complete the requirements.

Additionally, there are the aspects of responsibility, morals and ethics. Can a child of 8-10 fully grasp these concepts enough to be trusted with such great responsibility. My views undoubtedly are influenced by my experience. My sons and I started taking Tae Kwon Do a little over 5 years ago. My sons were 6 and 13 and signing up for lessons was the 6 year old's birthday present. The 13 year old had a couple years experience at a school that taught Shotokan technique, but no kata. I believe he had reached green belt at that school.

Within a matter of weeks, it became clear that the 6 year old had the most aptitude for TKD. He learned katas and techniques quickly and took instruction very well. He enjoyed the lessons and would ask to attend classes every day, while his older brother and I were content to attend 3 or 4 lessons a week. He also took several months of private lessons from our instructor. We all tested for black belt together, after almost 4 years of training. My then 17 year old son and I passed. The youngest, one month before his 10th birthday, passed 4 of the 5 sections of the exam. He failed due to a missed break, which was to be two boards with an elbow strike. He took the exam again, at age 10 1/2, and completed the entire test. He was required to perform every aspect of the curriculum that adults perform, except his front punch break was one board instead of two, and he was not required to break a brick with a hammerfist. Instead, he performed a two board break using a 360 kick. For those unfamiliar with the technique, think Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible II, in the big fight scene after the motorcycle chase. (Cruise used wires.... my son used actual physical ability)

If you are going to argue against younger students earning black belts, lack of coordination or physical skill is not your best point. I can understand the argument that they may not be emotionally mature enough, etc., but I think that is really a matter for the instructor to decide on a case by case basis. But, lack of physical ability, balance, coordination, etc... some kids can clearly handle that part of the curriculum. Some can't... There is another kid in my son's class, who started at about the same time, who is still blue belt.

And, before everyone starts screaming "belt factory" and "McDojo" at me, our instructor is a 6th Dan, trained under the chairman of ITF's Masters Promotion Committee. He has been teaching since the late 70's, and has run his own school since 1982. My son is, by far, his youngest black belt. The previous youngest was just short of his 12th birthday (that young man is currently 16, and 2nd Dan, training for 3rd). He has not had any others who weren't at least teenagers.

[Mark Barlow]

18 is our official youngest age to test for Black Belt but I have made 2 exceptions (in 25 years). Both students tested at 16 with at least 9 years of training.

Jr. Black Belts, 5 yr.old Black Belts, any Black Belt that needs a qualifier (well, I know he's only six but we gave him the BB because....) lower the quality and value of rank for all students. If a six yr. old can earn it, how difficult could it be?

Two students didn't earn rank at our last promotion test. One was 8 and the other was 18. Neither have returned to class. Would it have been easier to pass them and collect their fees and hope they "caught up" with the others?
Of course, it would have. Would I have been doing either of them a favor? Not in the least. It's always my hope that a student look at a lost match or a failed test and analyze the experience in order to improve. If they choose to give up and leave the dojo, they forfeit a learning experience. On the other hand, by a time a student has survived 4 to 8 years of training, I'll have absolute faith in their ability when they finally earn their Black Belt. How many McDojo instructors would be comfortable tossing their 6 yr.old Shihan into a situation where "real" martial arts ability is required?

On the other hand, I did get a kick out of attending the Battle of Atlanta karate tournament a few years ago and seeing that they had so many black belts under 10 years of age, they had to give them a seperate division.

Mark Barlow

[SRK85]

O welll I changed my mind to test for blackbelt you should at least be 14. I don't think anyone in elemntary school should have a black belt. Those kids are just too young to understand anything about martial arts. I really hate seeing little kids with black belts it doesnt make me feel as special.

[lightninrod]

If knowing some forms and breaking a few pine boards is all it takes to be a black belt, then that is why children have black belts. I saw a monkey on animal planet the other day that could do the forms and break boards. He was a black belt too. So, all you need to be a black belt in some arts is the brains of a monkey.

If a child can achieve black belt, it shows just how little their chosen discipline has to offer. It's interesting to note that any of the combat-oriented jutsu traditions of Japan take half a lifetime to really learn, and even longer to master. These children haven't lived long enough to even scratch the surface yet.

Don't be decieved by appearances! Just because an art is called "martial" doesn't mean it really is, and just because it's called an art doesn't automatically make it more than a sport. Combat and sport are two different worlds. One doesn't entrust combat techniques to children. (Talk about a lawsuit!!!)

But don't get me wrong. Children need something to work towards so that they will learn what it means to achieve one's goals. If they want to participate in sport, let them. And encourage them to practice and to do well in their endeavors. Just don't overinflate them and let them think they know more than they do. Realistic self-assessment is just as important as self confidence, and should be the root of such confidence. Otherwise, all one has is false confidence. And that's even worse than no confidence. I've seen more than one such child become proud of themselves thinking they had "it", only to see them get badly beaten when they were older, due to trying to use their sport technique in a real fight. Watch some of the early UFC's. They are good examples of what happens when someone doesn't know what they think they know. They are adult examples, but they illustrate my point nicely.

[Chrysophylax]

ipscshooter,

first off, I must kindly request that you include your full name in your posts, as a courtesy to myself and the rest of us, and also in accordance with the rules here at BudoSeek.

for the most part, all of us filter our opionions off of what we have experienced ourselves, myself included. That does not make me right, and it does not make me wrong... it makes me different. And thank God for diversity.

What I said was based off of what I have seen and experienced in my 11+ years of MA training, mostly in combative ITF TKD.

There are children who seem to be naturally gifted in MA, and your son may be just such a child. That is rare (in a good way, of course). My comments were generalized, covering the average (and thereby largest) group of children who practice MA.

Please understand I intend no offense, personal or otherwise, when I state my beliefs on the matter.

In the more specific case of your son, or any child of his age, keep in mind that his body is still changing rapidly, and what may have been successful in the past may not in the future, and what was once unsuccessful in the past may soon become successful. I am not saying that anyone awarded a black belt at such a young age did not put forth the time and effort, or that favor was given them, or even that they didn't really accomplish everything physically.

When I received my 1st Dan, my instructor said to me, "Congratulations. You just graduated from Hight School. Now it is time for College, Where the real learning begins."

I do not believe that a black belt should be awarded for only completing the physical requirments, as hard as they may be. There is so much more to a MA than the physical side. It used to be, at my school that essays were required before one could test for any of the first 5 belts. Each essay was to be on one of the Tenets of TKD (5 in our school). This was not so that we would have additional requirements, but so that we would develop a deeper understanding of the morality and ethics in our MA. It actually something that I wish was required of all levels in our school.

One of these Tenets was "perseverence." I feel that if a student is too young to test for their black belt, it is a prime time to learn perseverence and patience. They should not be given the next belt because it was "time" or "overdue" (as some schools do) but rather they should work on developing what they know. If a student cannot learn to have patience and persevere without some sort of "reward" such as a new belt, they should not be there in the first place.

P.S. The last 2 paragraphs were not directed at anyone in particular... just my rant against fast food MA.

[Chrysophylax]

a slight side note... but by no means a bad one.

If all that is necessary for a black belt are the physical requirements, what separate MA from sport.

If what you study is only the physical aspect, IMO, you study a fighting SPORT.

If it is sport, why, then is it so important to have a belt system at all?


sorry if this is too much of a tangent... i don't mean to hijack... so you can, if you wish, just ignore this.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Here is another angle to look at it.

If a kid can do the same black belt requirements as an adult, then what does that say about the requirements?

Let's get down to the point that not many want to admit. Even if it's not the reason the black belts were invented, we tend to view them here in the west as a badge of toughness. There is an unwritten "aura" around being a black belt. It feeds an ego and gives someone a sense of accomplishment and membership in an exclusive club. If an adult trains hard and achieves that step, and then a 7 year old kid gets the same award, it cheapens that sense of accomplishment.

I am to the point I hate all belt ranks and prefer to train in tee-shirt and gym shorts.

[ipscshooter]

Let's get down to the point that not many want to admit. Even if it's not the reason the black belts were invented, we tend to view them here in the west as a badge of toughness. There is an unwritten "aura" around being a black belt. It feeds an ego...
Toughness, indomitable spirit, perseverence, patience. I think my son demonstrated all of these in the course of his training. As a red belt, he fell while skateboarding and severely broke his left arm just above the elbow. The doctor told us that on a scale of 1 to 4, this was a 5, and that he might suffer permanent damage (thankfully the surgery went extremely well, and he is fine). Three days later, with six pins holding his upper arm together, and wearing a hardcast from shoulder to hand, Derek was begging to go back to class, and, with the doctor's permission, he was back the next day doing kata with one hand and helping the younger kids learn their katas. And, isn't "ego" something that martial arts training should seek to minimize. What about humility and respect? Having a blackbelt is not supposed to be about thinking "Hey, now I'm gonna change my name to Billy Badass." Self-confidence, fine. Sense of accomplishment, that's ok too. But, feeding your own ego? I don't think so. Note that we may have different concepts of the idea of "feeding one's ego." When I hear that phrase, I think of pomposity, arrogance, and braggadocio.

Lightninrod: I hope you were being sarcastic, as there is no way possible that a monkey could perform 9 ITF katas, using proper technique. Breaking boards? Sure, they're a lot stronger than we are, but, come on... In ITF style TKD, being a first degree black belt doesn't mean you have learned or mastered the entire martial art. As Chrysophylax said, earning a black belt is like graduating from high school, you've learned the basics and now it's time for college...

Chrysophylax: Sorry about not adding my name... I visit a lot of forums and forgot about that requirement here. Perseverance and patience, I think, were two of the lessons our instructor was testing for when Derek failed his first exam. I felt that he was much harder on Derek than the three others of us who tested that day. Of course, he was extremely disappointed then, but he didn't quit. He continued his lessons, worked very hard, both in the dojang and at home, and he came into his second testing focused and determined and really put on an awesome performance at the second test. (maybe a little fatherly pride and bias showing here. :) )

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with your assessment, for the most part. Most kids of a young age don't have the kind of drive, focus, determination, and other qualities needed to achieve a black belt. As I said, there are other kids in my son's class who have been there as long, but have only achieved half as much. Our instructor promotes students when they have mastered the curriculum at an acceptable level of performance. Those who have the talent and maturity to achieve a black belt at the age of 10 are very rare. Our instructor has been teaching for almost thirty years and, at his school, it has happened exactly once.

My apologies to those who think that someone of his age having a black belt somehow diminishes their own sense of accomplishment. Frankly, when I see Derek perform, I take a sense of pride that our instructor thinks I have the skills to deserve the same rank as him.

___________________________
Scott Franck

[Cliff Hargrave]

And, isn't "ego" something that martial arts training should seek to minimize. What about humility and respect? Having a blackbelt is not supposed to be about thinking "Hey, now I'm gonna change my name to Billy Badass." Self-confidence, fine. Sense of accomplishment, that's ok too. But, feeding your own ego? I don't think so. Note that we may have different concepts of the idea of "feeding one's ego." When I hear that phrase, I think of pomposity, arrogance, and braggadocio.



Yea apparently we do have different concepts of ego because I wasn't talking about labeling yourself as a "badass." I was talking about a feeling of personal accomplishment. It is part of your ego whether you admit it or not. Thanks for taking my words and displaying them in the worst possible light.

So what would be different if your style had a "junior" black belt that wasn't the same as an adult black belt? Maybe with a stripe down the middle or something? How about some different requirements that you would have to be an adult to accomplish? That wouldn't deminish his accomplishments while preserving the integrity of black belt status.

I am just throwing out ideas here because I no longer really care about belt ranks, so don't take this too seriously.

[ipscshooter]

Thanks for taking my words and displaying them in the worst possible light.That's why I added the qualification of how I perceive the phrase. "Feeding an ego" can be reasonably interpreted in a couple of different ways. A feeling of personal accomplishment is great. But, it seems to me that it should be just that... personal. I didn't feel the least bit diminished when our sahbumnim awarded Derek his black belt. My feelings of personal accomplishment are the result of my knowing how hard I had to work to achieve the rank. My feelings of pride for my son's accomplishment are the result of knowing how hard he worked to achieve it.


So what would be different if your style had a "junior" black belt that wasn't the same as an adult black belt? Maybe with a stripe down the middle or something? How about some different requirements that you would have to be an adult to accomplish? That wouldn't deminish his accomplishments while preserving the integrity of black belt status.For whatever reason, our instructor does not award a "junior black belt". Schools affiliated with ITF and WTF have a junior belt; but, our school is independent (although our instructor teaches ITF-style -- he was trained under GM Van Binh, the chairman of ITF's Masters Promotion Committee). Our instructor has a concept, based upon how he was taught, as well as his nearly 30 years of teaching experience, of what it should take to merit a black belt, emotionally and physically. So, I guess he feels that if a student can perform the curriculum at the appropriate level, with strength, with proper technique, and with proper attitude, it would diminish that student's accomplishment to be given a "junior" rank. Again, in his class, the rank is earned. Belts are not given away to kids just for showing up.

There are a couple of differing requirements in the course of training. In the adult class, the curriculum includes a number of aikido-like techniques that are not taught to the kids because the kids are still developing physically, which results in a high risk of injury if the kids (both attacker and defender) don't perform the technique correctly. The second difference is with respect to the breaking requirements during testing, especially at lower ranks. The size of boards changes based upon the size and rank of the student. When Derek was 6 and testing for yellow stripe, he had to break a 1X12X3 board with a front snap kick. Adults break a 1X12X12. During his black belt test, as stated above, instead of breaking a brick with a hammerfist, Derek had to break two boards with a 360 kick. Instead of two boards with a front punch, Derek had to do 1. In deference to his size/weight (4'6", 60 lbs), the boards he broke were 1X12X8 inches instead of 1X12X12. But, otherwise, the testing requirements are essentially the same. Attendance at four outside tournaments after reaching red belt (this is a real learning experience because you see how other students, from others schools, of ostensibly the same rank, perform... Derek performed well against state-level competitors), black belt essay; demonstration of appropriate techniques; demonstration of appropriate self-defenses; correct performance of all 9 katas from Chon Ji through Choong Moo, sparring, and breaking.

____________________________
Scott Franck

[Andrew Green]

Personal accomplishment should not require external validation, and a symbol that is displayed for all to see (wearing the belt)

Belts do feed the ego, it tells everyone who is above them, and who is below them. People that wear black ones tend to feel even more elevated above the other colours.

Are there exceptions, sure. But where there is an eception there is no need or desire for the belt anyways.

[Gae-Bek]

If you are going to argue against younger students earning black belts, lack of coordination or physical skill is not your best point.

If I were to kick your 10-year-old-son as hard as I could, I don't care how well he executes a block, but he would go flying into/through a wall. So "yes", a lack of physical attributes IS a reason (one of many) as to why children should not be given dan rank.

Cliff has a point about saying that Belts feed egos. I have been involved with Martial Arts at the college level for 11 years now, and I have seen freshmen [who hold dan rank] come in and try to take a piece out of some of the Black Belts in our school. It never happens. It's usually a very messy, ugly thing to watch.

The crappy thing is, that these kids are led to believe that they are fighting machines, and set loose on the world. And of course, they're used to getting all the respect that a Black Belt "deserves". But once they see that they can't hold a candle to one of our blue belts, they learn a lesson in respect. Our students will still respect them, but they learn that "superficial" respect [for someone who can't back-up their rank] isn't the kind of respect that they want.

Unfortunately, instead of trying to improve themselves, they all end-up quitting. And that's the real, underlying flaw in this issue...Black Belt kids aren't properly taught how to deal with failure, or how to work hard to overcome that failure. So when it does find them, they are so overcome by shame, that they do the easiest thing left to do...they quit.


he had to break a 1X12X3 board with a front snap kick. Adults break a 1X12X12. During his black belt test, as stated above, instead of breaking a brick with a hammerfist, Derek had to break two boards with a 360 kick. Instead of two boards with a front punch, Derek had to do 1. In deference to his size/weight (4'6", 60 lbs), the boards he broke were 1X12X8 inches instead of 1X12X12.

While it can be a good training tool, board-breaking doesn't prove anything. One of the main problems with Taekwondo is its pre-occupation with breaking, and what it really means. Does your son use that 360 kick in sparring? If so, how many times has he actually knocked-somebody-out with it?

I could go on and on, but the point is that kids just don't have the physical, mental, and emotional capabilities necessary to handle the responsibilties warranted by the position of an instructor, black belt, or even a "superior", etc...and definitely not in a school that alleges that it teaches combat arts and/or self-defense.

[Cliff Hargrave]

but, our school is independent (although our instructor teaches ITF-style -- he was trained under GM Van Binh, the chairman of ITF's Masters Promotion Committee). Our instructor has a concept, based upon how he was taught, as well as his nearly 30 years of teaching experience, of what it should take to merit a black belt, emotionally and physically.

Mr. Franck,

You seem to be making a effort to "defend" you school and instructor and prove it's not a "McDojo." This is very honorable and props to you for doing it.

However, it's still a Tae Kwon Do school that awarded a black belt to a ten year old. No matter how much you defend it, there are some martial artists here that will never be able to accept that.

It doesn't make either of us right, it just shows we all have different degrees of what we think martial arts should be.

[ipscshooter]

If I were to kick your 10-year-old-son as hard as I could, I don't care how well he executes a block, but he would go flying into/through a wall. So "yes", a lack of physical attributes IS a reason (one of many) as to why children should not be given dan rank.Oh, come on. I don't think that's what he meant. Physical ability to properly perform a technique doesn't translate into being able to take on someone who weighs three times as much as you. Just look at Bob Sapp. He has no martial arts skill whatsoever. My son was watching one of his matches and said "that guy punches like a girl..." But, Sapp manages to beat the heck out of skilled martial artists in MMA competitions because of his massive size. Does that mean that those who he beats aren't skilled martial artists or that, if they hold a dan ranking, they don't deserve that ranking? That's an absolutely ridiculous argument.


Cliff has a point about saying that Belts feed egos. I have been involved with Martial Arts at the college level for 11 years now, and I have seen freshmen [who hold dan rank] come in and try to take a piece out of some of the Black Belts in our school. It never happens. It's usually a very messy, ugly thing to watch.Sounds to me like you are addressing the kind of egos that I said were a problem...


The crappy thing is, that these kids are led to believe that they are fighting machines, and set loose on the world. My son was never led to believe that he was a "fighting machine" and he certainly doesn't think that way.


And of course, they're used to getting all the respect that a Black Belt "deserves". But once they see that they can't hold a candle to one of our blue belts, they learn a lesson in respect. Our students will still respect them, but they learn that "superficial" respect [for someone who can't back-up their rank] isn't the kind of respect that they want.We've had the same thing happen.


Unfortunately, instead of trying to improve themselves, they all end-up quitting. And that's the real, underlying flaw in this issue...Black Belt kids aren't properly taught how to deal with failure, or how to work hard to overcome that failure. So when it does find them, they are so overcome by shame, that they do the easiest thing left to do...they quit.As stated above, my son dealt admirably with severe injury, and failure, during his attempt to reach black belt.


While it can be a good training tool, board-breaking doesn't prove anything. One of the main problems with Taekwondo is its pre-occupation with breaking, and what it really means. Does your son use that 360 kick in sparring? If so, how many times has he actually knocked-somebody-out with it? Yeah, I know.... [bruce lee]"Boards don't hit back..."[/bruce lee]. It doesn't prove anything, except solid execution of technique. Generally speaking, especially with an attempted multiple board break by someone who weighs 60 lbs soaking wet, if the technique is wrong, the boards won't break. And, no, he hasn't used a 360 kick in sparring. I'd bet that the opportunities to use such a kick are extremely rare. What's your point? It's an extremely difficult kick to perform properly.


I could go on and on, but the point is that kids just don't have the physical, mental, and emotional capabilities necessary to handle the responsibilties warranted by the position of an instructor, black belt, or even a "superior", etc...and definitely not in a school that alleges that it teaches combat arts and/or self-defense.Opinions... everyone has one. Generally, I don't like generalizations. I believe the call should be that of the student's instructor. If the instructor believes that the student can perform the curriculum at the appropriate level, and if the instructor believes that the student's mental/emotional state is such that the student will comport himself at all times in a manner appropriate for his rank, then the instructor can allow the student to take the test.

_______________________________
Scott Franck

[ipscshooter]

Mr. Franck,

You seem to be making a effort to "defend" you school and instructor and prove it's not a "McDojo." This is very honorable and props to you for doing it.Well, of course... no one wants to think of their own school as a McDojo. :)


However, it's still a Tae Kwon Do school that awarded a black belt to a ten year old. No matter how much you defend it, there are some martial artists here that will never be able to accept that.

It doesn't make either of us right, it just shows we all have different degrees of what we think martial arts should be.I respect your opinion, and I guess we can agree to disagree, although, to an extent I do agree with some of what you have said. I have seen a lot of kids come and go through my son's class, and have also been an assistant coach for his little league team, and for the most part I would say that it is EXTREMELY rare for kids to possess the kind of determination/focus, etc., etc., etc. needed to do well in martial arts. Derek, at least in my biased father's view, has shown an extraordinary level of focus since his very first class a couple days after his 6th birthday. His focus level at 6 was greater than most of the [non-adult] students I've seen (albeit not black belts), even as teenagers. This is why I still think it comes down to a case by case determination by the instructor.
__________________________
Scott Franck

[tkdcanada]

Someone said that if they kicked a 10 year old as hard as they can, no matter how well the block was executed they would still go flying or something to that effect.

True...but.....I'm an adult. If an average sized man kicked me as hard as he can, I would probably go flying too...no matter how well I blocked. It doesn't prove a point against kids because many women, no matter how tough would be put in the same position.

Someone said that kids can't possess the physical, mental and emotional capabilities necessary to handle the responsibilty of being a black belt...

Obviously not the physical strength stuff although when they are younger they have much better agility than an adult would if he were to try to do some of the same things for the first time as an adult, but as far as the mental and emotional capabilities, some kids have more sense than some adults ever will. They aren't typical, but I have run into a couple who have a widsom about them that can surpass that of many adults.

I'm not defending whether kids should have a black belt nor arguing against it, just a couple of points that caught my attention.

[Chrysophylax]

One of the main problems with Taekwondo is its pre-occupation with breaking, and what it really means. Does your son use that 360 kick in sparring? If so, how many times has he actually knocked-somebody-out with it?

In defense of TKD... many styles of MA have somewhat of a pre-occupation w/ breaking... it is the unfortunate overabundance of McDojos in TKD that makes it an easy target.



However, it's still a Tae Kwon Do school that awarded a black belt to a ten year old. No matter how much you defend it, there are some martial artists here that will never be able to accept that.

With all due respect... in a discussion about "baby black-belts" I don't think that the fact that it is a TKD school should be such a strong factor. I will be the first to admit that TKD has more than its share of McDojos, however, implying that it's a primary reason a child was awarded a BB is just plain style bashing, IMHO.

I would hate to see this thread become a debate on whether TKD, in general, is a "Fast Food MA" or not, as I know it easily could.

cheers

[Cliff Hargrave]

With all due respect... in a discussion about "baby black-belts" I don't think that the fact that it is a TKD school should be such a strong factor. I will be the first to admit that TKD has more than its share of McDojos, however, implying that it's a primary reason a child was awarded a BB is just plain style bashing, IMHO.

I would hate to see this thread become a debate on whether TKD, in general, is a "Fast Food MA" or not, as I know it easily could.

cheers

I don't think it's sunk down to style bashing yet, but the reality is that TKD is the most popular martial art in the US, and there are more TKD schools than all other martial arts schools combined. So when it comes to "baby" black belts, they promote the most. Whether that is because of the style, or because of pure numbers is subject to debate.

[Chrysophylax]

I don't think it's sunk down to style bashing yet, but the reality is that TKD is the most popular martial art in the US, and there are more TKD schools than all other martial arts schools combined. So when it comes to "baby" black belts, they promote the most. Whether that is because of the style, or because of pure numbers is subject to debate.

I agree. Sorry if it seemed accusetory. It was not my intent. Just a fear that the thread would take a turn I have seen too often.

[Gae-Bek]

Physical ability to properly perform a technique doesn't translate into being able to take on someone who weighs three times as much as you. Just look at Bob Sapp. He has no martial arts skill whatsoever. My son was watching one of his matches and said "that guy punches like a girl..." But, Sapp manages to beat the heck out of skilled martial artists in MMA competitions because of his massive size. Does that mean that those who he beats aren't skilled martial artists or that, if they hold a dan ranking, they don't deserve that ranking? That's an absolutely ridiculous argument.


Hardly ridiculous at all. Are people who lose to Bob Sapp lesser Martial Artists or undeserving of Dan Rank? No, no necessarilly. Even skilled Martial Artists have trouble beating much larger people. Some people are better at fighting bigger guys than others.

Does size have something to do with combattive ability? Yes. Is it everything? No.

You bring up a good point, but your argument (comparison of a 10-year-old fighting an adult, to a small adult fighting a larger adult) is flawed when you look at these two facts.

1) Some adults are smaller than other adults.
2) All 10-year-olds are smaller than all adults.

In other words, you really can't compare the two. While size isn't necesarilly an all-encompassing factor in martial powress, lack of physical maturity is. And in my opinion, that is reason enough not to award a Black Belt to a 10-year-old.


but as far as the mental and emotional capabilities, some kids have more sense than some adults ever will. They aren't typical, but I have run into a couple who have a widsom about them that can surpass that of many adults.

A Black Belt should have the ability to run a class in the instructor's absence, with little to no advance notice. Quite honestly, I haven't met many 10-year-olds who I'd trust running class by themselves.

Are they going to know how to run drills safely, and at everyone's skill level? Are they going to be able to answer the why's and why nots of certain techniques? Are they going to know to switch-up pairings for Self Defense and/or sparring when the timid 40-year-old woman is paired-up with the aggressive teenage boy? Are they going to know how to work with a student who has been sexually-assaulted, and what level of discomfort is too much for them? These are situations that all Black Belts need to know how to handle.

How about this scenario: The adult Black Belts decide to have a night-out, and their vehicle is hit by a drunk driver, killing them all. As the heirarchy dictates, a 12-year-old 2nd Dan is now the most senior rank. He's now responsible for seeing to everyone's training, making sure that people are ready for testing, organizing the tests, choosing tournaments, keeping-up affiliations, figuring-out who the new school owner is going to be, finding someone to run the finances...not to mention worrying about his 7th grade Social Studies project.

Is this a bit extreme? Admittedly so. But as any Black Belt should be able to fill the role of instructor for one night, he should also accept his place in his school's heirarchy, and be prepared for the day that he may have to serve as the Head Instructor. I would expect any Black Belt in my school (including myself) to be able to do this. I would not expect that many (any) preteens are ready for this level of responsibility, and thus, not ready for a Black Belt.

[lightninrod]

Posted by Ipscshooter:
Lightninrod: I hope you were being sarcastic, as there is no way possible that a monkey could perform 9 ITF katas, using proper technique. Breaking boards? Sure, they're a lot stronger than we are, but, come on... In ITF style TKD, being a first degree black belt doesn't mean you have learned or mastered the entire martial art.

Ipscshooter,
Yes. I was being sarcastic; but I did see the monkey performing katas with his owner, practicing fancy punches and kicks on focus mits and the heavy bag, and breaking boards. And his techniques were both technically correct and powerful. It was quite a sight to see a monkey doing jumping spinning kicks.
Sarcastic or not, it is still a fitting illustration of how some arts have very different expectations when compared to other arts. My point was that all you must do to have a black belt in tae kwon do is know some forms and break some boards. If this is all that's required, then this is why children have black belts; and this is why I maintain that TKD is a sport, not a martial art.
I am in no way trying to downplay your son's demontration of will and perserverance. I, too, have been injured (much more severely than your son), and I understand the will and determination to keep going. This is an admirable trait that your child displays. It will serve him well in life.
However, the word "martial" implies relevence to war, or real combat. When I study an art, or a jutsu, I expect to learn how to keep someone from killing me. If I enroll my child in a MA school, I expect them to learn the same, but on a scale relevant to their maturity, judgement, and experience. Techniques in the jutsu arts (jujitsu, aikijutsu, ninjutsu) are very serious techniques which are meant to save someone's life. Serious application of these techniques results in broken bones, torn ligaments, hematomas, and other sorts of serious injuries. A child black belt is inconcievable because of this. Children in such arts focus on developing the necessary physical and mental skills and attributes (balance, flexibility, focus, proper movement, distancing/timing, avoidance strategy, etc.) which will later greatly aid them when they are entrusted with real life-and-death techniques.
So what it all really boils down to is - What kind of art are we talking about when we ask if it is appropriate for children to have black belts? If it's a sport art, and black belts are earned through repetition of kata and proper execution of board breaking technique, then fine. Give a kid a belt!!! If we are talking about anything that's really martial, then no - a black belt is not possible for a child.

Sincerely,
Justin Mears

[Mark Barlow]

Mr. Ploetz and Mr. Hargrave both made several good points. Too often schools forget to include the martial element in their martial art.

We hold our yudansha exams twice a year during our national Camps. The test is conducted at the end of the day when the student has already been on the mat for 7 to 8 hours. After performing kata and various requested techniques, they spar full contact with at least 3 black belts. It's rare for there not to be some injury, often broken toes or fingers or a rib or nose, now and then. The test is brutal and we've had a few brown belts choose not to move up rather than endure it. We view Akayama Ryu as a fighting style and demand that our Black Belts be able to fight. I don't see a child, regardless of how precocious they may be, being accepted as an equal member by the yudanshakai. Our adults would not be willing to go full strength against a child and the child would therefore have a false sense of security and achievement.

Why do so many schools say that the child "deserves" a black belt? I could drive my family pickup when I was 10 but no one demanded that I deserve a drivers license. Growing up in the country, I knew many kids who were as handy with a rifle as any soldier but that didn't qualify them for combat duty. Children (and their parents) demanding and receiving black belts are just another aspect of the fast food culture. Give it to me now or I'll find someone who will.

Gee, I didn't realize what a nerve this subject hit. Sorry if I'm ranting.

Mark Barlow

[ipscshooter]

Children (and their parents) demanding and receiving black belts are just another aspect of the fast food culture. Give it to me now or I'll find someone who will.

Gee, I didn't realize what a nerve this subject hit. Sorry if I'm ranting.

Mark BarlowJust so there's not any misunderstanding, neither my sons, nor I would ever even consider "demanding and receiving black belts". When our instructor deemed us ready, he asked us to take the test.


1) Some adults are smaller than other adults.
2) All 10-year-olds are smaller than all adults.

In other words, you really can't compare the two. While size isn't necesarilly an all-encompassing factor in martial powress, lack of physical maturity is. And in my opinion, that is reason enough not to award a Black Belt to a 10-year-old.So, you've changed your position from "lack of physical attributes" to "lack of physical maturity". In your earlier hypothetical about kicking a 10 year old into a wall, it is only size as a physical attribute that prevents a 10 year old from adequately blocking an adult's kick (as pointed out by others citing smaller adults and women as examples). I'm a little curious as to how lack of physical maturity translates into the inability to properly execute the techniques required in a black belt curriculum. Once again, I believe that the argument against young black belts has to be related to their mental/emotional maturity, as, physically, many are capable of executing techniques as well, or better than, their adult counterparts.

[Mark Barlow]

Mr. Franck,

I don't intend disrespect to you or anyone on this discussion board. You've been honest and open and I believe you've made a sincere attempt to see all viewpoints. I commend you. Regardless of whether I approve of black belts for juniors, it is obvious that both you and your son benefit from your training. When all is said and done, what more can we ask for? It is up to the individual to decide what they look for in a dojo or style.

I'll continue to maintain the promotional requirements set by my Sensei and I don't seek permission or approval from anyone. I assume your instructor feels the same way.

Good luck with your training and best to you and your son.

Mark Barlow

[lightninrod]

I'm a little curious as to how lack of physical maturity translates into the inability to properly execute the techniques required in a black belt curriculum. Once again, I believe that the argument against young black belts has to be related to their mental/emotional maturity, as, physically, many are capable of executing techniques as well, or better than, their adult counterparts.

Interesting point, but problematic. If a child can do the techniques better than an adult, then does that not suggest that the art in question is for children? What will a child in such an art do when they are an adult, and they can no longer perform those fancy techniques? What will they defend themselves with?
Like I said two or three posts back, if kata and breaking are all there is to "a black belt cirriculum", then give 'em a black belt. We're talking about TKD here, after all.
As far as real martial arts go, things become less physical and more subtle as one progresses along, and the techniques are dangerous to the recipient. So, yes! It is about maturity. Children simply do not have the necessary adult perspective concerning actions and their consequenses. See my above posting for further elaboration.

Justin Mears

[Andrew Green]

"A Black Belt should have the ability to run a class in the instructor's absence, with little to no advance notice. Quite honestly, I haven't met many 10-year-olds who I'd trust running class by themselves."

Skill and ability to coach are not neccessarily related.

And what would you say about BJJ where Blue belts are often head instructors?

Black belt does not mean the same thing in different arts. But for some reason you seem to think that anyone that does it different somehow diminishes yours. It makes a mockery of your symbol of personal accomplishment. I mean how are people supposed to know how good you are when your symbol is the same as a bunch of kids right?

"If a child can do the techniques better than an adult, then does that not suggest that the art in question is for children?"

No, that's a silly argument. Different things work for different people. Size, strength amongst other attributes determine which ones work for who. Or is your art so narrow in scope that it only works for the average adult male?

"Like I said two or three posts back, if kata and breaking are all there is to "a black belt cirriculum", then give 'em a black belt. We're talking about TKD here, after all. As far as real martial arts go..."

Cause yours is so much better and you have REAL black belts...

Why are you bashing TKD so hard cause it does things different from you?

[ipscshooter]

Interesting point, but problematic. If a child can do the techniques better than an adult, then does that not suggest that the art in question is for children?Of course not. Many techniques come easier for my son than for me. Example, executing a roundhouse kick at head level. I'm 46, and my legs simply won't go that high. My son can execute all of his kicks over his head level.
What will a child in such an art do when they are an adult, and they can no longer perform those fancy techniques? What will they defend themselves with?Most martial arts have a variety of techniques available and can be adapted based on the age/abilities of the practitioner. We have a 60+ year old second dan in our school who can't execute kicks as high as I can, but his defensive and offensive use of his hands is outstanding.


Like I said two or three posts back, if kata and breaking are all there is to "a black belt cirriculum", then give 'em a black belt. We're talking about TKD here, after all.
As far as real martial arts go, things become less physical and more subtle as one progresses along, and the techniques are dangerous to the recipient.There's really no reason for you to bash TKD here. I'm sure there are plenty of places to go where you can get into quite lengthy discussions by posting "My martial art is real and yours isn't."


So, yes! It is about maturity. Children simply do not have the necessary adult perspective concerning actions and their consequenses. See my above posting for further elaboration.

Justin Mears You are talking about mental/emotional maturity. I've been saying all along that that is the better position for those arguing against young black belts. I've also been saying that whether a young practitioner (or any other practitioner) should be given the opportunity to test for the belt should be a case by case determination for the instructor. In our school, students advance when the instructor deems them ready. Not all kids mature emotionally at the same rate. I have seen a teen red belt (of an age that some of you guys would deem reasonable for attaining a blackbelt) demoted by the instructor due to immature behaviors at school and at home. Perhaps my son matured faster than most kids his age because he grew up with two older brothers. I've seen, while helping with his little league team that, despite being one of the youngest on the team, he acts the oldest, by a significant margin. As far as my assessment of his ability to reasonably understand actions and consequences, when he's 12 (as his older brother did), I hope to be taking him with me to shoot IPSC matches. The only reason he isn't now is because of lack of a physical attribute. He can't yet pull the slide back on the pistol he'll be using.


A Black Belt should have the ability to run a class in the instructor's absence, with little to no advance notice. Quite honestly, I haven't met many 10-year-olds who I'd trust running class by themselves.Perhaps that is a requirement in your school. It isn't mandatory in ours. Black belts are expected to be able to assist the instructor during class, and my son regularly runs the opening exercise/stretching session in the kids' class (unsupervised), and helps the kids with their katas and techniques (supervised).

[lightninrod]

Mr. Green,
I stated above that "If a child can do the techniques better than an adult, then does that not suggest that the art in question is for children?"

Your reply:
No, that's a silly argument. Different things work for different people. Size, strength amongst other attributes determine which ones work for who.

On the surface, it souds silly; but it's not. If techniques are such that one must be young and agile to do them, then they will lose their effectiveness as the practitioner ages.

You went on to ask:
Or is your art so narrow in scope that it only works for the average adult male?

No. It is actually so useable that it works equally well for young and old, male and female alike. The techniques emphasise flow, sensitivity, and strategy. These are things that generally improve with age. I never said or implied that my art only works for adults. In fact, I only spoke generally about the jutsu arts, and never said anything about what I study. What I did say, more than once, is that real martial techniques are dangerous, and therefore would not be taught to someone of limited maturity. (That would be... You guessed it! CHILDREN!!!)

Your next quote was:
"Like I said two or three posts back, if kata and breaking are all there is to "a black belt cirriculum", then give 'em a black belt. We're talking about TKD here, after all. As far as real martial arts go..."

You missed the point again. Notice that, in my original posting, I underlined the word martial. I was simply drawing a line between martial and sport arts. There is nothing martial about TKD. If you don't believe me, find someone who studies one of the jutsu arts I mentioned above, and try your TKD on them. See how far it gets you. Your experience will prove my point far better than my words can.

Your reply to this out-of context quote was:
Cause yours is so much better and you have REAL black belts...

I didn't say that a TKD black belt isn't real. I simply pointed out the obvious contrast between TKD's black belt requirements and those of combat-oriented arts. Kata will get you nowhere in a real confrontation, nor will breaking boards. Again I say, if you don't believe me, put it to the test.

You finished with:
Why are you bashing TKD so hard cause it does things different from you?

I'm not bashing TKD because it does things different from me. It has its good points. It's good exercise and it can teach discipline. It has self-developmental qualities. But it is not practical for real life-and-death combat. That's why it's tae kwon do and not tae kwon JUTSU. ( I know the word do is the same in japanese and korean, but I don't know what jutsu would be. The point remains.)

In closing, I want to say everything that exists exists for a reason. If you enjoy doing TKD, then continue to do so. I wish you success. I have no wish to bash anyone or anything. But the question was posed as to why children are running around wearing black belts, more specifically in TKD dojang, and the answer is obvious. What more can I say?

Justin Mears

[lightninrod]

Mr Franck,

You quoted me as follows:
Like I said two or three posts back, if kata and breaking are all there is to "a black belt cirriculum", then give 'em a black belt. We're talking about TKD here, after all.
As far as real martial arts go, things become less physical and more subtle as one progresses along, and the techniques are dangerous to the recipient.

Your reply:
There's really no reason for you to bash TKD here. I'm sure there are plenty of places to go where you can get into quite lengthy discussions by posting "My martial art is real and yours isn't."

I didn't say my "martial art is real and yours isn't". Let me point out again that I underlined the word martial in my posting. Maybe it would have been better to say "really martial arts..." instead of real martial arts..."
What I AM saying is that TKD is not martial. I could say my art is really martial and yours isn't, and that would be a true statement. Don't you know that tae kwon do ends in the word do? Do you know that do means the same in japanese and korean? Do you know what it means as compared to jutsu? If you do, then why do you call it "TKD bashing" when I am simply pointing out the truth as the name dictates?
And it's nice that you can do roundhouse kicks, or that your child can kick higher than his head. But do you really believe these things would be useful in a real fight? Try it and you will end up on the ground. And as for the sixty year old practitioner, do you think his hands and arms are going to be quick enough and strong enough for him to rely solely on blocking and punching when some young buck is attacking him on the street? I promise you - they won't be.
TKD is a primarily a sport, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will change this. Look into the arts I mentioned earlier. (aikijutsu, jujutsu, and ninjutsu) Look at what the older practitioners are capable of doing to the younger ones. They can do what they can do because their arts are combat oriented! Their arts don't rely on blocks, fast hands, or high kicks. They rely on subtle body positioning, strategy and flow. These old fellows can beat a young man senseless without even having to hit them and without causing lasting injury. Show me an example of this in TKD, and I'll eat my words.

Justin Mears

[Paul B]

Whoa!!Touchy,Touchy subject matter here, Lets all take a collective breath.JEESH! Allright,better now First, if the kid put in his time and his instructor says he's ready,do it up!!! BELTS DO NOT MEAN ANYTHING!!!
If they mean that much to you,maybe you should re-examine the reasons your training for, and what you are really getting out of it!Personally, being a "Traditionalist"(stop making those faces), it's not my thing, but that's just how I was trained.No big deal.Oh yeah, the Korean word for "jutsu" roughly, is "sool". I know this probably won't help much, you have to remember that the differences in each Art are what makes every Art. If we all train in a spirit of sincerity and gratitude, that's the common "thread" (pun intended)
that unites us all.


Best Regards,

Paul Bladen-----Midwest Hapkido Group-----Hanminjok Hapkido

[ipscshooter]

I didn't say my "martial art is real and yours isn't". Let me point out again that I underlined the word martial in my posting. Maybe it would have been better to say "really martial arts..." instead of real martial arts..."
What I AM saying is that TKD is not martial. I could say my art is really martial and yours isn't, and that would be a true statement. Don't you know that tae kwon do ends in the word do? Do you know that do means the same in japanese and korean? Do you know what it means as compared to jutsu? If you do, then why do you call it "TKD bashing" when I am simply pointing out the truth as the name dictates?Now, I'm not sure that you know what it means.

Tae - to kick or smash with the foot.
Kwon - to punch or destroy with the fist.
Do - the "art" or "way" of.

So, now I'm confused. Seems to me that, as we are discussing "martial art", you should have no problem with the name of the art containing the word "art". Shouldn't your argument be that "Tae" and "Kwon" have nothing to do with "martial"? I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that "do" somehow implies "only a game". This thread was not intended as an argument about which martial arts are "martial" and which are "sport". It sounds to me like you're saying, if the name of the art has "do" in it, rather than "jutsu", then it is not a "martial" art, it's only a game. I think that your opinion on this issue is in the distinct minority.


And it's nice that you can do roundhouse kicks, or that your child can kick higher than his head. But do you really believe these things would be useful in a real fight? Try it and you will end up on the ground. A roundhouse kick is not a useful technique? I will acknowledge that high kicks, generally speaking, are not the best techniques in a "real" fight. That wasn't the point I was making. The issue arose in the context of discussing young practitoners physical ability to perform techniques. High kicks are a technique that is taught in the TKD curriculum that is easier for younger practioners to perform. Note that we're also taught that in a real fight, kicks are usually best used for taking out a knee, or to the groin. On the other hand, I've seen many people knocked to the ground by kicks to the head, so, under the right circumstances, they can be useful.

And as for the sixty year old practitioner, do you think his hands and arms are going to be quick enough and strong enough for him to rely solely on blocking and punching when some young buck is attacking him on the street? I promise you - they won't be.You talk like all we learn is low block/reverse punch. From now on, when practitioners reach a certain age, and their skills begin to deteriorate, they should turn in their belts. Forget about the idea that practitioners often work on and refine those techniques that are particularly suited to them based upon their own physical abilities and limitations.

TKD is a primarily a sport, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will change this. Look into the arts I mentioned earlier. (aikijutsu, jujutsu, and ninjutsu) Look at what the older practitioners are capable of doing to the younger ones. They can do what they can do because their arts are combat oriented! Their arts don't rely on blocks, fast hands, or high kicks.OK, I concede, TKD practitioners are doing nothing more than a sophisticated game that has techniques that are no more dangerous than a game of pattycake, and the art has no useful techniques for a self-defensive situation.
They rely on subtle body positioning, strategy and flow.I guess you believe that none of these things are practiced in other arts.
These old fellows can beat a young man senseless without even having to hit them and without causing lasting injury.Interesting. I would indeed like to see how someone can be "beaten senseless" without being hit.

My apologies. This thread has now gotten completely off-track.

[lightninrod]

Mr. Franck,
You say above:
"Now, I'm not sure that you know what it means.

Tae - to kick or smash with the foot.
Kwon - to punch or destroy with the fist.
Do - the "art" or "way" of."

Yes, I know what it means. Do also has the meaning of "a path", i.e. "way".
Jutsu means "method".


You also said:
"I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that "do" somehow implies "only a game... It sounds to me like you're saying, if the name of the art has "do" in it, rather than "jutsu", then it is not a "martial" art, it's only a game. I think that your opinion on this issue is in the distinct minority.

I didn't say that. Arts that end in do are self-developmental in nature, whereas arts that end in jutsu emphasise combat application. And that's not an opinion. I have not said anywhere in any of these postings that TKD is a game. Those are your words, not mine. That is why we have aikido and aikijutsu. As the names imply, they are very different in application.
I have a friend who was a two-time Florida full contact champion. He is a 4th degree black belt in TKD. When we put on pads and play by his rules, he is king of the hill. When we play by my rules he loses alot, but he always laughs about it. He knows TKD is mostly for sport, and he's not bothered by it. He's very good at what he does. (My rules consist of "Don't seriously injure your training partner." Anything else is allowed.)


Next was:
"OK, I concede, TKD practitioners are doing nothing more than a sophisticated game that has techniques that are no more dangerous than a game of pattycake, and the art has no useful techniques for a self-defensive situation.

Once again, that's not what I said. Boxing is a sport too, but that doesn't make it a game of pattycake. And I didn't say TKD has no useful techniques for self defence. However, it has been my experience that tae kwon do practitioners are very limited in their ability to defend against anything other than basic punches and kicks. There have been a couple who could, but it was because they also studied jiujutsu.


You quote me with:
"They rely on subtle body positioning, strategy and flow."
And respond with:
"I guess you believe that none of these things are practiced in other arts."

You guess wrong. The arts I mentioned are simply the first examples that came to mind.


Also you quote this:
"These old fellows can beat a young man senseless without even having to hit them and without causing lasting injury."
And respond with:
"Interesting. I would indeed like to see how someone can be "beaten senseless" without being hit."

You obviously have never experienced getting tossed around or dumped unceremoniously on the ground every time you try something. Land badly a few times and you will have been beaten senseless without having taken a single blow. Beat=defeat in this case, not beat=hit.


I, too, am sorry that this thread has gotten off track. I also apologize for the sarcasm in my posts. I didn't mean for things to take off the way they did. Sometimes I could stand to be more humble.
The original question of "Why are there little kids with black belts" could be answered simply with "Because they have met the requirements of their system." I'll leave it at that. Anyone can draw their own conclutions from there.


Justin Mears

[Andrew Green]

On the surface, it souds silly; but it's not. If techniques are such that one must be young and agile to do them, then they will lose their effectiveness as the practitioner ages.


But if you have to be old and beer gutted...




No. It is actually so useable that it works equally well for young and old, male and female alike. The techniques emphasise flow, sensitivity, and strategy. These are things that generally improve with age. I never said or implied that my art only works for adults. In fact, I only spoke generally about the jutsu arts, and never said anything about what I study. What I did say, more than once, is that real martial techniques are dangerous, and therefore would not be taught to someone of limited maturity. (That would be... You guessed it! CHILDREN!!!)


Not many EFFECTIVE techniques can not be taught to children safely.



You missed the point again. Notice that, in my original posting, I underlined the word martial. I was simply drawing a line between martial and sport arts. There is nothing martial about TKD. If you don't believe me, find someone who studies one of the jutsu arts I mentioned above, and try your TKD on them. See how far it gets you. Your experience will prove my point far better than my words can.


Have never taken a TKD class in my life, I train Mixed Martial Arts. Would you like me to tell you how ineffective your jitsu art really is?



I didn't say that a TKD black belt isn't real. I simply pointed out the obvious contrast between TKD's black belt requirements and those of combat-oriented arts. Kata will get you nowhere in a real confrontation, nor will breaking boards. Again I say, if you don't believe me, put it to the test.


You're right, combat orientated systems really have no need for belts at all. What does that have to do with who's is better?



I'm not bashing TKD because it does things different from me. It has its good points. It's good exercise and it can teach discipline. It has self-developmental qualities. But it is not practical for real life-and-death combat. That's why it's tae kwon do and not tae kwon JUTSU. ( I know the word do is the same in japanese and korean, but I don't know what jutsu would be. The point remains.)


Koryo snobbery at its finest...

Read some history, Judo beat the snot out of Jujitsu within a few years of the kodokan opening. The -Do suffix has nothing to do with the training and more to do with the mentality of the culture at the time. It was PR.



In closing, I want to say everything that exists exists for a reason. If you enjoy doing TKD, then continue to do so. I wish you success. I have no wish to bash anyone or anything. But the question was posed as to why children are running around wearing black belts, more specifically in TKD dojang, and the answer is obvious. What more can I say?


Once again I don't do TKD, never have, never will.

Here is my question, why are ther adults running around with black belts telling others how there belt is better. Shouldn't an adult be mature enough to not need that kind of nonsense?

[lightninrod]

Ninja Penguin,
I'm letting go of all this. I apologized in an earlier post for my sarcasm and I apologize to you now, directly. I'm sorry. I think you can probably see why my freinds nicknamed me lightninrod - I tend to be too bold and forceful about the things I believe in. Looking back on my previous posts, I see this more clearly now. Everyone has their own path to follow. Thank you for teaching me. (No sarcasm intended, I promise!)


Sincerely,
Justin Mears

[Ewok85]

People, a belt is a belt, at this present moment im a 5th notch black belt of leather (suck that gut in!). Its what you make of it. I've been doing kendo for 2 1/2 years and am still ungraded. Why? I dont care, I know what I can do and I strive to further myself.


I've met some young black belts (12-14 i think). 2 things matter, can they physically do it and more importantly do they get it mentally? So what, you got a nice black belt now. Well back to work, it only just begins from here. The pair I met understood that as they got older they would have to train harder so that they were at a higher level than other black belts. They weren't given any provisions based on age, they were graded in the same way as everyone else, written exam, basics exam, techniques, kata. To me having a black belt make you a leader, a role model. If I have a question or a problem that nice black bit of fabric tells me you've put in the hard work and know your stuff.



Not many EFFECTIVE techniques can not be taught to children safely.
Yup, grappling in particular is dangerous for under 14 yo's. Ease kids into it and guide them along, let them get older before really hitting the joints hard.

[Andrew Green]

Yup, grappling in particular is dangerous for under 14 yo's. Ease kids into it and guide them along, let them get older before really hitting the joints hard.

90% of my kids classes are grappling, no injuries at all.

Many schools offer wrestling programs for kids younger then 14.

Judo seems to do ok with kids.

[Jeff Burger]

No injuries in our kids grappling either.
Once in awhile you get heabutt or unintentional grind but no real injuries.

Jeff

[Ewok85]

Well can I change grappling to 'wrist reversal's and control using opponents wrists'.

[Jeff Burger]

Ewok85
Per forum rules you please include your real full name.

My kids do chokes, bent and straight armlocks and straight ankle locks.
Advanced kids can even use wristlocks.
I dont allow kneebars or heel hooks, finger locks.

btw
Judo was listed as one of the safest contact sports.

Jeff

[Ewok85]

Sorry, I thought I'd already done it :eek:

I love the idea of Judo, I've seen it used in Japan in real situations with much effect.

[ppko]

Kata will get you nowhere in a real confrontation

Justin Mears[/QUOTE]
Mr. Mears,
This is the only thing I would like to comment on, kata can be very usefull in a self defense situation if you practice them right. Katas should be practiced like a boxer practices shadow boxing, if not than you are right kata is useless, in a Martial aspect. I would like to make one more comment on kata in that you only fight one man and that is what makes your katas usefull.

Joe Morris
P.S.
there are no blocks in kata only strikes and grappling moves

[Ewok85]

"Kata will get you nowhere in a real confrontation"
unless they are doing the opposite kata! :D
(shorinji kempo joke...)

Kata is good for fitness and little else. You need to change what you do depending on your opponent and kata doesnt allow for this. If you want to do kata do it with a partner.

[lightninrod]

I used to study Goju-ryu Karate, and I think my being sour on kata comes from those endless evenings of being made to do kata, kata, kata, with little else to supplement it. I had studied Bujinkan ninjutsu in the early nineties, and aside from the kihon, or basic moves, there was almost no kata. And even these were really short. They are meant to give one the "feel" of how to move correctly, and beyond this, it was technique, technique, technique. A typical class started with doing rolls for warmup, after which everyone would gather around the instructor and watch whatever technique he had for us. We would then pair off and practice the technique, and after a short while, the instructor would show us another. We typically covered about three techniques per class. Needless to say, one covers alot of ground in a very short period of time. They were showing things faster than I could learn them, but I later realized that all the techniques involved the same footwork which was appropriate for the go-dai element we were to be focusing on. It is a very effective teaching method, and after having been exposed to such realistic training, the karate class just drove me nuts. So, aside from the occasional seminar, I'm holding out until I can attend a Bujinkan dojo again.

[ppko]

"Kata will get you nowhere in a real confrontation"
unless they are doing the opposite kata! :D
(shorinji kempo joke...)

Kata is good for fitness and little else. You need to change what you do depending on your opponent and kata doesnt allow for this. If you want to do kata do it with a partner.

I am going to have to disagree once again, if you know how to do kata correctly it is very usefull, it allows for many situations, like I said earlier their are no blocks in kata. It is just like shadowboxing when boxers do that they are not hitting just the air but the opponent that they see and they will chang what they do daily depending how they feel. Do you truly believe that katas were created just for fitness, well they were not they were created to end a fight as soon as it started, Gichen Funikoshi wrote in 1922 that every move in a kata was made to kill the opponent, not fitness. Kata is one way for you to practice your techniques without a partner if you do them right.

Best Regards
Joe Morris

[lightninrod]

My understanding of karate kata is that it teaches the basics, but has "hidden moves" which the practitioner is supposed to find through creative exploration. Obviously, you don't go into a fight and try to do kata. What I don't understand, is why so many karate/TKD practitioners drop the traditional karate stuff and start moving around like kickboxers when sparring or fighting. I don't see any pictures of Funakoshi bouncing around like a kickboxer, and it's a well known fact that he could really kick butt. Why do they practice all those traditional kata and techniques just to drop it all when they need it the most?
I'm just curious because it doesn't make sense to me that people train one way, and fight another way.


...there are no blocks in kata.
There were in the goju ryu kata that I used to do. Why do you say this?


Justin Mears

[ppko]

My understanding of karate kata is that it teaches the basics, but has "hidden moves" which the practitioner is supposed to find through creative exploration. Obviously, you don't go into a fight and try to do kata. What I don't understand, is why so many karate/TKD practitioners drop the traditional karate stuff and start moving around like kickboxers when sparring or fighting. I don't see any pictures of Funakoshi bouncing around like a kickboxer, and it's a well known fact that he could really kick butt. Why do they practice all those traditional kata and techniques just to drop it all when they need it the most?
I'm just curious because it doesn't make sense to me that people train one way, and fight another way.
Justin Mears

There were in the goju ryu kata that I used to do. Why do you say this?
Yes you are right most people don't do kata when they are in a street fight but what kata does is it gives you different situations to go off of when I get into a street fight I do moves from my kata but it does not look like a kata. Most people do not have a Martial understanding about kata to me it is a map of how to attack pressure points therefore their are no blocks would you ever use a "block " from a kata in a street fight no you go to natural insticts.

Joe Morris

[Ewok85]

SK has plenty of blocks in the kata but the kata has little influence in what I do. Training is alot more similar to lightninrod, we'd pair up and practice techniques. I guess if you wanted to be picky you could call them short kumite kata ;)

[ppko]

SK has plenty of blocks in the kata but the kata has little influence in what I do. Training is alot more similar to lightninrod, we'd pair up and practice techniques. I guess if you wanted to be picky you could call them short kumite kata ;)
What I am saying is that what you are or were told are blocks are not but strikes, or locks, or throws. I threw away my katas several years ago until I got into DKI and started to find out how usefull they are. Their is nothing wrong with kumite but look at some of the stuff you do in their than find it in your kata.

Joe Morris

[Ewok85]

Can I call it a deflection? I dont think its a strike because I use my arm to control the attack and repond with a kick or punch of my own. Block is a bad work for the action anyhow, very rarely would anyone block an attack (it hurts :p )

ps- kata = kumite. Being able to practice alone or in pairs, on the same kata, helps you understand what the kata is supposed to do. And makes a great filler for demonstrations :D

[Andrew Green]

And this has what to do with Young black belts? :D

[Wulf]

oh my god, what've i done?! i've created a huge argument!! arrrgh!!!

[Ewok85]

I think its my faults for causing massive thread drift!! So where were we.... young black belts...

Well in some martial arts theres a straight out age restriction, but I dont think it applies until higher levels, like 4th dan, 30 years old..... i dont think thats anycloser to the topic either :eek:

[Wulf]

this is totally off topic, but how do you do the "EEK!!" face? you know, the little face with the eyeballs popping out? is it this? 0o0

[lightninrod]

oh my god, what've i done?! i've created a huge argument!! arrrgh!!!


No you didn't. You asked a good question, and it has caused "spirited discussion". :wink2: You'll have to decide for yourself what the answer is, though. It seems that there is little agreement on the subject. :rolleyes:
Sorry for sidetracking things.

[Wulf]

oh that's good. i only said that cus i remember in one of my other posts (i think it was about defending against guns) jeff and some other fella whose name i forget started having an argument (a real nasty argument) and mandeigh had to close the thread cus of it.

[Ewok85]

:eek: = : eek : (without spaces)

Maybe we should start a new thread for that little side topic.

[Wulf]

:eek: : eek : is that it??

[Ewok85]

yup, thats the one

[nosh276]

I received my black belt when I was just 11 years old. There was another in my class that was around 7 when he received his. I think that under 10 is too young for black. Even at my young age I understood the resposibilities that I had as a black belt. I was not pompous or have a superiority complex. The students were a little less...rowdy back then as well. Nearly all of my classmates were serious and worked hard so they could excell, but as I observe the younger classes now, most students slack off when the instructor is not watching them directly and talk in between drills. I worked in daycares for three years, there, I noticed a difference in the behavior of the kids today and those of my generation. By the way, I was born in 1984.

[nosh276]

I posted this about katas or forms on another thread


I have to disagree. I think forms are very important to "real life fights". Forms not only improve balance and coordination, they improve your technique as well as provide a cognitive knowledge of what move "naturally" comes after what. It also is helpful in training to fight against multiple partners. No you don't move quickly, but that's the point. If you learned to do everything quickly before you could do it slowly and correctly you will waste energy, give away your moves more easily, and have less powerful blocks and attacks. Not to mention, if you perform a move incorrectly you risk severe injury.

[SRK85]

I received my black belt when I was just 11 years old. There was another in my class that was around 7 when he received his. I think that under 10 is too young for black. Even at my young age I understood the resposibilities that I had as a black belt. I was not pompous or have a superiority complex. The students were a little less...rowdy back then as well. Nearly all of my classmates were serious and worked hard so they could excell, but as I observe the younger classes now, most students slack off when the instructor is not watching them directly and talk in between drills. I worked in daycares for three years, there, I noticed a difference in the behavior of the kids today and those of my generation. By the way, I was born in 1984.
Yeah these kids now a days won't sit still. They have no discpline at all I hope at our school for black belt test we make all the applicants do wall sits for 15mins without talking.

[Posiview]

Yeah these kids now a days won't sit still. They have no discpline at all I hope at our school for black belt test we make all the applicants do wall sits for 15mins without talking.
In my opinion that's not always the case. At our dojo we have about 40 under 16s that train regularly and I'd say about 20% are always chatting, fidgetting and being a general pain in the butt; 50% just do what kids do: they mess about some of the time and are very focused the rest of the time. The remaining 30% are always very focused, show respect for the dojo and instructors, and train very hard.

My daughter's 11 and she has been training for over 4 years; she's just been awarded her 3rd kyu in ju jitsu. She falls into the 50% group! I wouldn't be happy with her getting her black belt until she is at least 14 year's old.

As for a 7 year old black belt, I'd like to see what he/she had to do to be awarded their black belt . If their club awards junior black belts for 4 throws, 4 counters, 4 punches and 4 kicks then it's not that difficult to do.

I have to say, my experience of junior martial artists is, all in all, very positive.

[Forbiddenryu]

well my sensei has a junior black belt system.also, he won't give anyone younger than 16 a real chodan. I'm 15 and I got it though, but that's because I have been doing it for 8 years. About discipline, I think that I have a great level of maturity and understanding. Martial Arts is my life and I hope to someday open a school...

[Gae-Bek]

well my sensei has a junior black belt system.also, he won't give anyone younger than 16 a real chodan. I'm 15 and I got it though,

So, your sensei won't grand a full 1st Dan until the age of 16, but he did in your case. And so, you've just invalidated your own statement.


I think that I have a great level of maturity and understanding.

If this was true, then you wouldn't feel the need to remind us that you're "15 and have trained for 8 years" in every post that you've made over the last 2 days. I was amazed that I didn't see you boasting about taking on 4 guys here, too.

This goes to illustrate another problem with "Baby Black Belts". Those that do turn out to be "good" (and I use that term loosely) tend to have enourmous egos. This is especially true with schools that are hardcore into sport karate. They think that because they are "World Champions" in playing tag and doing forms (while kihaping every 2 moves) that they really know something about Martial Arts. What they don't realize, is that before you can REALLY learn, you need to lose your ego, not accentuate it. Big tournaments like Diamond Nationals, NBL World Games, and the Junior Olympics actually hurt our youth (in this respect) more than they help them.

[Forbiddenryu]

sorry, well I am egotistic as is any man good at his goals, but I was mostly trying to fit in this new forum, i don't know anyone.

[sean_stonehart]

sorry, well I am egotistic as is any man good at his goals, but I was mostly trying to fit in this new forum, i don't know anyone.

Having & using your ego to accomplish your goals is one things. Not keeping it in check is another...

To fit in here I suggest the following


Be polite
Use proper grammer
Keep said ego in check
Understand a majority of us here have held Dan ranks longer that you've been around
Don't try to fit in... find your place by gaining experience in listening & contributing

[moogong]

sorry, well I am egotistic as is any man good at his goals, but I was mostly trying to fit in this new forum, i don't know anyone.

At age 15, what makes you a "man"?

[moogong]

This goes to illustrate another problem with "Baby Black Belts". Those that do turn out to be "good" (and I use that term loosely) tend to have enourmous egos. This is especially true with schools that are hardcore into sport karate. They think that because they are "World Champions" in playing tag and doing forms (while kihaping every 2 moves) that they really know something about Martial Arts. What they don't realize, is that before you can REALLY learn, you need to lose your ego, not accentuate it. Big tournaments like Diamond Nationals, NBL World Games, and the Junior Olympics actually hurt our youth (in this respect) more than they help them.

Very well said. :)

[Forbiddenryu]

You want to know what makes me a man? After years of family deaths and traumas, I have finally found something good in my life. I have ability in martial arts and am not afraid to say it. It's the only "light" there. I have matured over years and is ssafe to call me a man, whether you agrre or not. Everybody around me feels the same way. This is the only thing I shine in, so I let it be.

[moogong]

You want to know what makes me a man? After years of family deaths and traumas, I have finally found something good in my life. I have ability in martial arts and am not afraid to say it. It's the only "light" there. I have matured over years and is ssafe to call me a man, whether you agrre or not. Everybody around me feels the same way. This is the only thing I shine in, so I let it be.

When you do actually become a man, I hope this forum is around so you an revisit your post. By then your eyes will be open as to what it means to be a man your words will give you a good laugh. That's the way life works, AJ...you will see. :wink2:

[Forbiddenryu]

you know I would really like a one on one with you some day...

[Cliff Hargrave]

you know I would really like a one on one with you some day...

I don't think so. Goodbye. Come back when you are more mature.

[JujitsuFreak]

you know I would really like a one on one with you some day...


I know you've already said it Cliff, but I just can't get over the above statement. Oh yea, REEEAAALLL mature and Manly. Im beside myself.... most whacked out statement Ive read in awhile.

[moogong]

I'm sorry to see him be that way. However, that's a very typical immature attitude and I take no offense by it. It's a very difficult thing at age 15 to fully realize why you are not a man. To me, being a man holds as much or if not more responsibility than being a black belt. I just hope he stays with the martial arts long enough to mature mentally and emotionally.

You know, life works out kinda funny...it would be awful ironic if by some strange twist of fate he walks into my dojang and he gets his wish. Hey, stranger things have happened!! :D :D

[Cliff Hargrave]

.......................

[jjaje]

This thread has run it's course from the original question, and gone into personal territory.

I'm going to go ahead and lock it down.