types of systema?

[hac]

hi guys, still looking 4 somewere 2 train but i was wondering about the styles of systema. what is the difference between Sokoli Stalina, Rukopashnii Boi and apparent ancient styles and are there any more.
Are there sivilian types and how do they differ (as to my knowledge civ ma is no less combative, destructive, or effective-depending on teaching-than any other)
+ what other similar rma does anyone know about.

thanks... :t2:

[Sgathak]

First, Systema just means "system" so even Hung Gar, Silat, Wado Ryu, or JKD are a "type of Systema" (in case anyone was confused)

with Regards to RMA, there are ALOT. Most are virtually unknown outside of Russia.

Sokoli Stalina (what most people call "Systema") was developed for Stalins bodyguards from methods used by the Pre Communist Russians in various villages.

Rukopashnii Boi (literally hand to hand combat) combines alot of the traditional systems (mostly ideology) with Asian techniques. So the skills themselvs look Asian, but the WAY of training is very different.

Kadochnikova Systema, was developed by Alexi Kadochnikov, an engineer, by looking at human anatomy and applying physics to the biomechanical structure as the primary goal.

There are alot of other types of RMA (not including Sambo) like Buza, Skobar, Tropa, and others.

There is more than a little reason to speculate that most, if not all of the above styles have been heavily influenced by each other... Few of the heads for each group will admit it, but its difficult for an objective observer to deny.

[Mouth]

I train in Systema. As I know it Systema is Systema.

I don't disagree that there are many different influences or "styles" presented within the Systema circle, but that is not for me to debate as I am not an authority on the topic of Systema merely a student.

I am pretty sure that they are all interconnected with one another, more complementary. As for disecting them into categories of Systema, it's one thing to throw out names but another to actually "see" the difference.

As I said I am not an authority on the topic of "types of Systema" but I presume that the "differences" can be attributed to the many influences from other cultures into the Russian society. So I ask is it more of a question of type of influence rather then type of "style"?

Also would the name of "style" reflect the region of where the "style" was practiced?

[Sgathak]

Ummmm... are you aware of what Rukopashnii Boi or Kadochnikovs System ARE?

[Stratiotes]

I think a lot of the Systema practicioners would not have a clue of the different styles. All I know is that I'm learning from somebody who learned from Vlad Vasiliev, Sonny Puzikas, and Ken Good - if those three gents are different styles, I am not aware of it. Sonny and Ken visited our little group a few weeks ago and did not mention anything about styles, we just got down to work. My guess is, that's the experience of most.

Sgathak - from what I've seen, you seem most knowledgable on this subject. I'd be interested to know what "style" I am practicing since you are probably familiar with those teachers.

[Sgathak]

Im not THAT knowledgeable, I just have a strong cross reference of different/differing RMA practioners whom I work with to give me a rough idea of whats what.

Vladimir learned from Mikhail, and though their individual interpretations are unique, its pure "Sokoli Stalina" aka Systema. Im unfamiliar with Sonny's history, but from what Ive seen of him in Videos, he too is doing (at least mostly if not totally) Systema, Ken Good is a student of MR/VV if I recall and is also a long time Aiki guy (IIRC) and so there is probably a bit of a blend there, however since Systema makes strong use of many Aiki like techniques/principals, its safe to say that hes doing Systema as well, just with a little bit of a "flavor".

Your teacher is sure to have brought *some* of his previous training (if any) into his Systema work which is completly viable, even encouraged in some circles, if he sticks to the principals of Systema, and you will also bring in some of your previous training as well.

I like your icon, I use it myself on some forums I visit. Its the Vityaz symbol.

[Mouth]

I just wanted to make reference to the "styles" of Systema.

I train under an instructor that learned from VV. However, as for the "styles" of Systema I wouldn't be able to differentiate the difference in "styles".

My experience from Russian history, although minimal, is that the people of Russia throughout history all practiced tribal fighting arts. From this depending on where they lived within the Soviet Union dictated the outside influence on to which their fighting style evolved.

At some point, as I am sure most know when the Communists came to power they oblolished such things as what we now call Systema. It is my presumtion that since the "fall" of Communism that what we now refer to as Systema isn't so much a particular "style" or a set of different "styles" as it is a general reference such as that of Kung Fu.

Personally I don't get too hung up on what "style" it is, but I would be interested in learning more.

Thanks.

[Sgathak]

Welcome to Budoseek Steve!

Linguistically, your absolutly right that "Systema" is sort of in the same catagory as "Kung Fu". Its a generic term, and te word "systema" is used in most "official" names of most RMA.

However in the west, we tend to associate "systema" with the martial art taught by Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko. Which is actually pretty specific and unique.

If you look at Kadochnikova Systema, the two *look* similar and share many principals, but functionally, Kadochnikovs system is very hard and is based on the sciences of biomechanics, physics, etc. Very secular in what it does and it doesnt play around.

Systema Rukopashnii Boi, is also very hard. Its quick and linear. It looks nothing like "The System". It looks very much like Karate or some other direct hard style as that was its main influence.

there are others... each distinct... however they arnt as accesable to the Western world and arnt as well known.

I take alot of interest in knowing the nuances of these arts... Off and on Ive studied RMA for about 7 years. Ive spent the last 3 years studying only RMA. knowing the history and questioning the past are a big deal to me. What goes where? How does this fit into that? Is there more? Does X work well with Y? Since Y shares a history with Z, what can I learn from Z to improve my knowledge of Y? After 3 years of questioning, Im only now starting to get this figured out. I figure Ive got several more lifetimes worth of study to get it all sorted out. Still alot of questions (and not alot of resources).

Part of what Im finding is that even though the different RMA can be shockingly different (Sport Sambo and Draka for instance) there is almost always a connecting force in some other RMA system... In this case, Combat Sambo, which itself has a tradition of both grappling and kickboxing arts in its lineage.

[Mouth]

Thanks for the information. It's nice to see that someone has taken a real look at it's evolution and the differences to the various styles. You really hit it on the head so to speak with the topic at hand.

Once again thanks,

Steve Montgomery

[Derek Wilson]

I doubt this post will be of any value to you, but holding on to the slight hope that you might care, I will say that I asked my instructor about MR's Systema and Kadochnikov's Systema one night.

He told me that Mikhail and Kadochnikov are very good friends and train together alot. He also said that with them being good friends and training together alot and all, that they borrow alot from each other as well. Therefore, at my school, we are getting the best of both worlds.

Well, that's what he said.

[Stratiotes]

Where would ROSS fit in to all this? I have seen references to it but know little about it.

[Sgathak]

I very much dislike talking about that system, Ive heard numerous stories of what this system is, but the most likely story from what I can tell, Retenshki (sp?) was a student of Alexi Kadochnikov who integrated Sambo heavily with his Kadochnkov work... though now, the focus behind this system seems to be more about preparation for general "physical culture" than combat.

[TonyU]

Sgathak,
After we corresponded on the H2H thread on the Systema DVD's I read this thread. I'm impressed with your knowledge on RMA. Question for you. I'm an avid collectors of MA books. Is there, and do you recommend any good books on RMA?
Thanks

[Sgathak]

Thanks...

There are VERY few books in English, and none that are currently available that I would recommend.

Vladimir Vasiliev sells a very small book that has some pretty good fundamentals for his version of Systema... I wouldnt take the historical accounts for gospel, and his approach to spiritualty in RMA is limited to him, M Ryabko, and their "followers". IMHO, Its not to be taken as a true guide to RMA, just one interpretation... www.russianmartialart.com

Matt Powell has written a book on Kadochnikovs system. I have not seen this book, and for that reason cant reccommend it, but I have heard very good things about it... Systema Kadochnikova (or as Powell calls it - "K-Sys") is based on body dynamics, biomechanics, and the destruction of the human body from a perspective similar to taking down a building or a bridge - find its weak points and break it down from there. www.k-sys.org (I think, the site seems to be down at the moment)

[TonyU]

Thanks again.