View Full Version : How to find quality self-defense instruction?
Derek Wilson
05-17-2004, 17:21
I apologize in advance for this excrutiatingly long and monotonous post.
Ever since I was a little kid, I have always had a very intense interest in the martial arts. Unfortunately, I was never allowed to take them. Even when I moved out and finally had the freedom to do as I wished, I still could not pursue this great interest of mine because I couldn't afford it.
But I suppose some good came of this poor hand I was dealt in life, as I eventually learned that Martial Arts were not all they were made out to be. Now before you all start flaming me, understand what I'm saying.
I'm not saying all martial arts are bad, but I think that in North America at least, they way they are taught is very poor. For example, I would imagine that in Asia, you could receive very high-quality instruction in a great number of styles and become a highly effective fighter. But thanks to the obscene ignorance and lack of respect towards martial arts in North America, if you try to learn to fight in a typical Tae Kwon Do or Karate dojo, you are likely to become a worse and more unskilled fighter than you could ever imagine.
Case in point, I once saw a Black Belt in Karate reduced to tears after one punch. I also once knew a guy who beat the **** out of two drunken guys, but broke his leg in the process. If I weren't so accustomed to such stupidity, I would be appalled that even a single dojo exists that can promote you to black belt without teaching you a ***damn thing. Or that there are instructors out there that teach you to break your ****ing leg when you kick someone.
And I don't mean to generalize all North American Dojo as poor, fradulent, and inept, but it's my opinion and the opinion of many fighters that as unfortunate as it is, it's the case for about 95% of all Dojo here. But as bleak as my situation is in regard to studying the martial arts, I am holding on to the hope that I will someday find and be able to afford quality MA instruction. But while I have done a lot of research, I am by no means whatsoever an expert. I am still very much a novice to all of this.
I don't know a whole lot about how to distinguish a McDojo from a real one. I know enough to avoid any school that does any tournament-related competition, requires you to sign any contracts, or charges high belt fees/promotes you just to get money and not to teach. I would also like to avoid Dojo that have any belt ranking at all as a fighter should be judged by his skill, and not by the colour of socks he wears. It's absurd to think otherwise. But I won't entirely rule out belt-ranking because it's so common. Is there anything else I should know?
I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the area I live in, but in case anyone here is, and knowing will help them help me, I live in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada. I don't know when I'll even be able to afford instruction, but I'm hoping to know where to go by the time I can. I am considering
http://www.russiansystema.com
And Krav Maga classes at Leo Wong's Tae Kwon Do Institute. I tend not to trust TKD schools, let alone Leo Wong's so called "Institute" (I suppose I'm being harsh, but I just don't trust the place.) but maybe the KM instructor is trustworthy and just rents the space or something.
As for Systema, it sounds really good, in fact, if it's everything it claims to be, this is exactly what I'm looking for. I'd even say it was made just for me. But that's also one of it's problems. Something that's too good to be true usually is. Also, I find the history suspicious. I mean, it sounds good like I said, but it's also just as possible that it's all a load of BS some fat Russian guys made up to scam ignorant people like me. Also, if what I read about Sambo is true, which is that it was originally created during WWII because Russian soldiers were having such a hard time with the Japanese, why couldn't they just use Systema? If it's been "declassified" since the '80s, why have I never heard of it until yesterday?
Also, I saw some demonstration videos and wasn't all that impressed. Although they'd need to be unimpressive for the average person to understand and be able to observe what's going on, but still... (http://www.systema-chicago.com)
Krav Maga is also right up my alley, but some schools/instructors are too McDojo-like for my liking. And of course, I'm open to just about anything as long as it teaches me to fight effectively. So yeah, long story short, I want real fighting/self-defense instruction, not fradulent, sporty instruction. Any help you can provide me with will be appreciated. Thank you.
Foul language modified by Jeff Burger
Please keep it clean.
Go to http://pub205.ezboard.com/bcombatmartialarts, and talk to Dave. He's in (north?) Toronto, just down the hiway from you.
He'll set you straight about your area.
I feel for you man,there's a lot of schools out there,some good,some not so good! You really have to decide what your most important reasons are for pursuing any Martial Art and then go from there. Don't be afraid to ask for background info,any reputable teacher would be more than willing to show you where they learned their art,who they studied under,put you in contact with their parent organization,etc.... Remember though, the practioner makes the art,what good you get out of ANY class is ultimately up to you.Be a good student,show up for class at LEAST 3 times a week,and pay attention because mat time is precious.Hope I helped a little.Good luck! --------Paul Bladen
Andrew Green
05-17-2004, 22:48
Look for contact sparring, and the option to go hard, with limited rules (preferably ground work, clinching, low kicks allowed).
You can't fake that, and that is what you need if you want to learn how to fight.
If the school insists on only light / no contact. No punches to the face, grabbing, low kicks, or anything else that seems odd, or just doesn't spar at all keep looking.
As for Systema, it sounds really good, in fact, if it's everything it claims to be, this is exactly what I'm looking for.
Depends whos making the claims. But, it works if you find the right teacher.
I'd even say it was made just for me. But that's also one of it's problems. Something that's too good to be true usually is.
Usually, of course not always, and no one evr found out the truth by sitting on their butts watching TV and wondering if it was true
Also, I find the history suspicious. I mean, it sounds good like I said, but it's also just as possible that it's all a load of BS some fat Russian guys made up to scam ignorant people like me.
That could be possible, and I too find the "published history" to be questionable... however Ive also been to Russia and seen that if it was just a bunch of scamming fat guys, they managed to scam their way into some pretty top level training programs, and along the way came up with some scammed stuff that HURTS
Also, if what I read about Sambo is true, which is that it was originally created during WWII because Russian soldiers were having such a hard time with the Japanese, why couldn't they just use Systema?
Your sambo history is a bit rough. Your understanding of WW2 Russian training and soldiery is even MORE rough. And if the history of Systema is true, it was suppressed as a national tradition 30 years prior, and most Soviet soldiers wouldnt even know it existed, let alone how to use it.
If it's been "declassified" since the '80s, why have I never heard of it until yesterday?
Maybe you dont pay very good attention? Not that its exposure has been all that glowing, Im not sure theirs a martial arts focused webforum or magazine on the planet that hasnt had at least one disscussion or feature article on Systema. BlackBeltMagazine has run a 1/2 page ad for quite a while... several months if not a year. And before that, TRS sold a few Systema videos back in like... 95, and in usual TRS fashion, they were promoted with BS overhype and the same ad ran in every Martial Arts Rag in the western world for oh... 6 months non stop.
If you have more questions that I can answer in better detail, Budoseek has a Russian Martial Arts subforum. Please post there. Thanks
Jeff Burger
05-18-2004, 05:25
I would say you are going to have to go to schools in your area and see who you believe is the best quality.
In fact try several.
Bring your questions an comments back here to Budoseek.
Sambo is a great art, I have been trying to to get one particular Sambo teacher to come to my school.
Systema....
Never been to a class but after viewing some online clips I bought several tapes.
Very interesting art and Im enjoying playing with it.
Id like to know its true history too as it looks very Chinese, Bagua / Tai Chi-ish, also some kicks I have only seen in Tam Tui. Yin style Bagua has its practitioners develop around their body type.
(Dragon = atheltic, Pheonix = small or tall and long limbed, Lion = aggresive, Bear = heavy set)
Seeing the different Systema teachers move they way they do accoring to their body makes me think the roots could be close to CMA even more so.
But as with many MAs the history is blurry to say the least.
Jeff
I don't know how close this is but it is a start
Canada
Sarah Daley
York Karate-do
7126 Branigan Gate
Mississauga, ON L5N 7L5
sensei@yorkkarate.com
www.yorkkarate.com
416-834-7400
Good luck have any questions e-mail me ppko@ blackbelt.zzn.com
Joe Morris
Derek Wilson
05-19-2004, 05:16
Thanks for the input everyone.
Jeff, I apologize for the use of foul language in my post.
Sochin, I posted on Dave's board. Unfortunately, it seems to be down. Hopefully it's just temporary. Thanks for the link.
Sgathak, I know I probably came off sounding ignorant, but I just meant that if it's so great, I would expect that more people would be aware of it. I mean, everybody knows who Bruce Lee is for example. I haven't followed any MA magazines for awhile, but I have found numerous articles on the internet. Most people/articles speak highly of it. But I'm not entirely convinced, oh well, I'll post any further questions on the Russian MA board. Thanks.
Jeff, (Again.) I will eventually set out to look at Dojo I'm interested in. I'm e-mailing/phoning different people, (Yes, I know actually going there is a lot better, it's just that I know I'll forget to ask important questions or something like that. Using e-mail allows me to think about everything I want to ask.) and I'll follow up the ones that sound promising.
Ppko, thank you, but Missisauga is too far for me as I don't have a car.
Yang Shen
05-19-2004, 11:58
There is another angle you may try, old school, the master picks the student, the student does not pick the master/teacher/ instructor commercialism disinagrates at once. This approach is not an easy task put out the word you seek instruction, research local population to find out who may have the knowledge, ask to be taught, if you are told no you must keep trying in proper fashion or no will remain no and never turn to yes.
You will need to prove yourself not have others prove themselves to you. The teaching is about you not someone else. Take bad training and turn it good if needed to start, if your perceptions are of such a high quality you will no the difference and how to make the training useful. If you slight the art or slight the teacher do not waste your time the transmission will not be passed on to you. The only thing passed will be your money or a passed opportunity to study with a great master.
The way to start is to know what you seek, then it will come to you, if you have fear, not trusting and apprehensions those faults must be weeded out by your self or the proper teaching may not come to you. Good luck and fascinating connection of internal arts with the Russian system Jeff.
Going slightly off topic and following the RMA - CMA idea.
I've trained heavily in both - a lot of tai chi in particular before crossing over to Systema. At first I thought they were very similar, indeed many of the core principles sound the same. However the more RMA I practice the further I move from the CMA. The training methodology is very different and the underlying theories differ too.
I'm not saying there are no similarities, after all we all have 2 arms and 2 legs and things like relaxation and good posture are universal. But the idea that RMA somehow grew or was taken from CMA doesn't hold too much water with me. If it did I'd expect the training methods to be a lot closer. I agree at a high level you may see similar things, though having said that IME it's rare to find the same abilites in CMA people, or at least the same level of adaptability that the Systema guys demonstrate.
cheers
Musubi Dojo
05-19-2004, 13:29
Hi Derek;
I'm in Bowmanville, about 15-20 minutes from you, my friend Glen is running our club, but I drop in occasionally.
www.musubidojo.com
We have students that live in Oshawa so you could probably swing a ride.
Give Glen a call or drop in to try a class if you're interested. (There's a map on the website)
You can email me if you have any questions as well.
musubi_28@yahoo.ca
There's also a great Ninjutsu club in Orno. I can try to find contact info for you if you're interested.
Neither club is a "quick fix" to self defense. You're looking at years of training to gain proficiency, but nothing of value comes easy. :)
Best of luck;
c
Sgathak, I know I probably came off sounding ignorant, but I just meant that if it's so great, I would expect that more people would be aware of it. I mean, everybody knows who Bruce Lee is for example. I haven't followed any MA magazines for awhile, but I have found numerous articles on the internet. Most people/articles speak highly of it. But I'm not entirely convinced, oh well, I'll post any further questions on the Russian MA board. Thanks.
People arnt as aware of Systema because its not a fixation for us to promote our art. Yes, some teachers go out of their way to drum up business, and some students get over-hyped and wag their jaw too much... but on the whole, your average Systema guy is perfectly happy doing his own thing with his little group of training buddies and if someone happens along who thrives on having their butt kicked every now and then, so much the better. All we ask is that people give Systema a good solid run before making up their minds about it.
I would seriously check out Musubi Dojo, as Chris suggested. I checked out the web site, and their place looks pretty good. ( 15-20 minutes each way is easy, I have to drive an hour each way to study )
A few rules of thumb to remember. First, like Chris said, it will take time. Any school promising quick results has a screw loose. Karate, jujitsu, systema, sambo,.... any of them take time and dedication to learn.
Next, does the place exist to make money or does it exist to teach? You want to go to a place that teaches first, and takes money just to keep the doors open. You want to learn martial arts, not marketing. ( I guess I am lucky here, my organization is pretty much volunteer. No one is paid to teach, all time teaching is donated. We do pay dues, but they only go to rent the building and pay the bills. We all have day jobs. )
Don't rule out places just because they use belts. In our system, a persons belt generally tells you what throws they are prepared to take. ( and how high you can throw them ) In BJJ, to move up in rank, you have to submit everyone in your rank. So here, in both cases, the belts actually give useful information. ( not just # of dollars spent )
I would pretty much ignore what Yang Shen said. The master / student relationship is very different now that we are out of feudal Japan. Also, don't waste your time on a poor instructor. There is so little time to devote to good training, that you don't have any time to waste developing bad habits. Besides, as a beginner, how are you going to effectively change bad technique and bad teaching into good technique? With 7 years experience, I still cannot do that.
My last rule would be, find an instructor that does not try to talk in riddles, which seemingly contradict each other, including your soul, the earth, elements, your enemy, love and harmony........ Do not go with an instructor that has found the light and wants to show you all the light today. Find an instructor that talks straight and is easy to understand, one that can easily answer your questions. There will be plenty of riddles, spirituality, contradictions, soul searching times with out the instructor adding to them.
Yang Shen
05-20-2004, 06:40
Wab25 I agree with what you are saying about bad habits formed from bad instruction but my idea was to be humble as a beginner and get a start. I know some that have done MC dojo and it opened the door for them so in bad is good it just takes awareness and experience that’s all.
The other point was that I have trained with a private master that I was referred to. So do not be fooled in past/ present situations, we may walk by some one very skilled that could teach us everyday and not even Know it so it is important to keep an open mind.
Chris's school sounds like a great opportunity and close good luck!
Self defence training:
• if it is not practical, don't train it
• if you can't use it on your way home from learning it, don't train it
• true sd training is easy to learn, easy to remember without thinking or a lot of practice, and easy to do with your personal body.
• sparring is not fighting and fighting is not sd
• an art that contains a / some technique(s) useful for sd is not therefore an sd style - there is more to sd than techniques and a desire to win
Some clubs spar, few fight and even fewer traditional clubs or sport clubs actually teach any sd at all. Not everyone who thinks they want sd are really after it.
There are many more reasons to choos a good strong traditional club than sd, giving yourself years of satisfaction.
Derek Wilson
05-24-2004, 16:38
First off, I apologize for being late to replay; I was gone for a couple days.
Yang Shen: Thank you for trying to help, but even if I could find such a teacher, I probably wouldn't be his or her ideal student. I don't mean to say I would be a bad student, but I can tell you that I am far from the perfect or ideal student. That, and I just don't care for other aspects of the martial arts like the philosophy, tradition, etc; (I may be wrong, but I assume someone not running a dojo would be much more tradition, etc; oriented than someone who does. But maybe I'm just being ignorant and stereotypical again. I don't know.)
No offense to anyone, I don't intend to be rude, but it's just my opinion that all that stuff is a load of BS. If I want to learn about Eastern philosophy and religion, I'll study it on my own time. But when I am in a dojo or with an instructor, I had DARN well better be learning how to fight. If you have time to spout off about things not related to what I want to learn, you have time to teach me how to kick butt. If you guys like that stuff, fine. Like I said, no offense intended, it's just not my cup of tea.
(And just so you all know, I'm not saying I have no interest in Eastern philosophy and stuff, on the contrary, I'm very interested in history and stuff, but I can learn about that on my own time for free. I'm sure as heck not paying for it.)
Chris: I actually happened across MD's site a long time ago. (Back then, I wasn't considering MA as seriously as I am now.) It sounds like a promising school, but with the schedule the way it is, I would only be able to take a class a week. As for the Orono Ninjutsu club, I really appreciate the heads up and all, but Orono is just too far out of my way. And don't worry, I am fully aware that gaining proficiency in the martial arts or anything else worth pursuing for that matter, takes a very long time, and a lot of dedication, etc; I may not be the smartest guy ever, but I would never be so stupid as to assume that something as complex as MA could be learned over night. In fact, I think it's obvious that MA is so deep, that you can never master it, as you are ALWAYS learning. For now, I'm just looking to be able to handle myself in any confrontation I might find myself in.
Sgathak: I didn't think Systema practioners were fixated on promoting their art, I just thought that something as good as what Systema claims it is would have gained more recognition by now. Not necessarily by anyone working to promote it, but just by virtue of it being so great. I don't mean to slam it, I'm just simply being cautious.
Wab25: As I said earlier, I am well aware that MA requires a lot from the student. And, of course I am looking for a place that exists to teach. I wouldn't learn otherwise. Also, I am not ruling out Dojo that use belts entirely, but I would like to avoid it if at all possible. They may have some relevance in your club, but I think that they're meaningless for the most part. That, and I just plain don't like having to pay testing fees.
Sochin: Just how is a traditional club better than SD? Personally, I believe the opposite of that. A club that teaches something that is not applicable to what you are learning it for (i.e. Self-Defense.) is worthless in my opinion. Also, a lot of places think their style is the end all, be all of MA and tend to be insulted at the thought of integrating other methods.
But in a practical, no nonsense art like Krav Maga for example, you find something that doesn't care for tradition and what not, and therefore, does not deteriorate due to arrogance/ignorance. A good SD school/instructor is open-minded, willing to incorporate anything that works into their art, and discard anything that is useless/impractical.
It's like what Jigoro Kano was thinking when he developed Judo. Something that is hard and rigid (i.e. A traditional school.) actually breaks very easily, whereas something that is flexible and goes with the force directed at it is very strong and resilient. (i.e. An SD school.)
Of course, I don't mean to say all traditional schools are bad, and all SD schools are good, I would just prefer to learn what is the most practical.
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Wab25: As I said earlier, I am well aware that MA requires a lot from the student. And, of course I am looking for a place that exists to teach. I wouldn't learn otherwise. Also, I am not ruling out Dojo that use belts entirely, but I would like to avoid it if at all possible. They may have some relevance in your club, but I think that they're meaningless for the most part. That, and I just plain don't like having to pay testing fees.
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I just wanted to address a few things here. You are right that belts are meaningless outside our club/system. Rank is always meaningless outside of the system that rank came from.
While we do have belts, we have no testing fees for the the belts. In fact, my dojo does not have "tests." YOu are always being tested. When sensei thinks you are ready, you are promoted.
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No offense to anyone, I don't intend to be rude, but it's just my opinion that all that stuff is a load of BS. If I want to learn about Eastern philosophy and religion, I'll study it on my own time. But when I am in a dojo or with an instructor, I had DARN well better be learning how to fight. If you have time to spout off about things not related to what I want to learn, you have time to teach me how to kick butt. If you guys like that stuff, fine. Like I said, no offense intended, it's just not my cup of tea.
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No offense taken. What you should consider though, is that many times the stratagy of a martial art and many times the strategy of certain moves in that art are directly connected to the philosophy of the art. In not learning the philosophy of the art, you will not learn fully how to apply the art.
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It's like what Jigoro Kano was thinking when he developed Judo. Something that is hard and rigid (i.e. A traditional school.) actually breaks very easily, whereas something that is flexible and goes with the force directed at it is very strong and resilient. (i.e. An SD school.)
====================
This is very true, however, Jigoro Kano did create a framework, from which to learn his ideas. While his system and philosophy, did go with the force directed at it, it always overcame the force and returned to its proper frame, much like a willow bending in the wind. ( the same wind that would break the mighty oak )
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A good SD school/instructor is open-minded, willing to incorporate anything that works into their art, and discard anything that is useless/impractical.
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Be careful when judging the useless and impractical. Sometimes, things that look impractical or useless and become very practical and very useful once they are mastered. Sometimes, the useless things are training tools, used to develope other much more useful arts. Too many times, I have seen people throw away what they thought was useless, only to find later that it was very powerful.
The bottom line, Mr. Wilson, is that you have to GO!!!Go see for yourself the many styles and different methods of instruction you have available to you!
Many schools offer 2-3 days free,some even a month!If you don't like it,move on!No harm done,but at least you have actually experienced a "taste" of a particular style,and I think everyone here would agree with me that when you're actually on the mat,most of your preconcieved notions go right out the window. Get back to us and tell us how it went!Good luck in your search.
Paul Bladen---Midwest Hapkido Group---Hanminjok Hapkido
Derek Wilson
05-24-2004, 19:52
Wab25: Yes, as you said, rank is irrelevant outside of the system, but that's not quite what I meant to say. I believe I already said this in my first post, but I think a fighter should be judged by his skill, and not the colour of socks he wears. Yes, you can argue that it holds some relevance within the club, but I firmly believe that skill, and skill ONLY is what a fighter should be judged by. Let's say a member of the Gracie family starts at your school, and they start as a white belt, but little does everyone they've been studying BJJ their entire life, so your school's system would be inacurate in this case. (And yes, I know it's a poor example as that actually happening is very unlikely, but it's all I could think of on short notice.)
Or, let's look to the story I told about the Karate BB I knew. Let's imagine that in his club, a belt indicates how well you take hits and stuff like that. Needless to say, a belt doesn't hold any relevance in this case, either.
I could probably go on, but I'll stop for now. I wouldn't mind belts being present in a school if there were no tests or fees associated with them. I still stand by my point about their irrelevance, but I could tolerate them being handled the way your sensei does it, for example. (I had pretty much assumed all schools would charge testing fees, etc; Just another example of my ignorance. My apologies.)
As for your point about philosophy, can you provide any examples? My current stand is that it should be "If some guy tries to do this to you, just do this, or this." or "This is where you hit a guy to knock him out." etc; etc;
But maybe I'm just being ignorant again.
Yes, I know Kano created a framework to teach his ideas, and I have no problem with a set framework, or curriculum, I just meant to say that any good school/instructor is always looking to improve that framework. It should be quite obvious that to attain perfection in anything is impossible, but I think every art should strive to be the best it can. If you insist on teaching something impractical or worthless because of tradition, you're just going to become obsolete. I know people want to respect their ancestors, and cherish their legacies, but one of the keys to MA, as well as real life, is adaptability. By taking tradition too far, or being too arrogant or whatever, you're disrespecting MA as a whole, in my opinion. If it was "tradition" to live completely naked in the arctic with no sources of comfort and warmth, would you do it? If you would, you wouldn't live very long. What happens to tradition then?
As for your last point, I agree with you. But true as that is, I think there are a lot of schools/instructors that teach material that is just plain ineffective. I'm just going to hope I find something good.
Paul: I know that I'll have to look around, and I never said I didn't intend to do so, or otherwise imply that, I'm just trying to figure out what I should look for when that time comes. I'm sure I seem overly hesitant, or any number of other idiotic things, but I'm the kind of person who has to make sure I'm getting the best I can. Isn't it better for me to go in to a school having some idea what to look for as opposed to going in totally clueless? (At least, more so than I already am.)
No Derek, you don't seem overly hesitant,your just doing what any responsible person would do,research.The only comparison I have for you was when I came to Aikido from Karate.I read all the books,talked to people who went to classes,etc...etc.But,like I said reading and talking are worlds apart from doing.It was TOTALLY different when I actually walked on the mat.All the people on the web could type until their fingers fall off and it still would not convey the feeling of first-hand experience.That's all I was trying to say. So keep on searching,but let us know when you find something,I would love to know how it went. Best of luck!
Paul Bladen---Midwest Hapkido Group----Hanminjok Hapkido
Here's some guidelines to help you in your search.
1. Never go to a school advertised as "Master So-and-So's" Anything! A good teacher will never put his or her name in lights on the marquis.
2. Never go to a school that won't let you watch a class. If they give you some nonsense about their "secret techniques", ask yourself this-- how good could their secret techniques be, if they're afraid you can figure them out after seeing it once?
3. Never go to a school without a very clear and easy-to-understand price list. This is your money, after all. Don't be scammed by hidden costs and fees!
4. Avoid any place that makes you pay for more than 3 months in advance. While teachers have the right to demand a commitment from you, it's your money. 3 months seems to be the current standard; any longer, and there's too much that could go wrong, meaning that you're out your money. (YMMV on this one; if a teacher that feels right asks for 4 months, don't worry; but if anyone asks for a one year contract, leave right away.)
5. Avoid any place that doesn't have intro lessons. You won't know if the place is right until you get onto the floor and see how you work with the teachers. Some places can't offer intros, due to insurance reasons-- but they'll typically let you know up front, and even then they usually have some sort of short-term lesson plan.
Remember, this is your money, and you have the right to get what you're paying for. The best thing to have is an instructor that you click with, and there's no way of telling if that'll happen until you get onto the floor and start training. So, take your time, and don't be afraid to walk away from a school that doesn't feel right.
Derek Wilson
05-25-2004, 02:07
Paul: Phew... I'm glad I'm not coming across as an idiot. Just so you know, I am going to try to visit one or two schools in my area this week. Don't worry, I will definitely let you all know how it went. Thank you very much for the well-wishing, etc;
Bun-Bun: Thank you for the advice.
Everyone: If everything goes as planned, I should be able to visit an MMA school, and http://www.russiansystema.com this week. I have listed some questions I have prepared in the second post of this thread, (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5674) if you can suggest any additions/modifications I should make, I would appreciate it.
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Let's say a member of the Gracie family starts at your school, and they start as a white belt, but little does everyone they've been studying BJJ their entire life, so your school's system would be inacurate in this case.
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No, actually, it would be very accurate. While the Gracie would be excellant at BJJ, we don't study BJJ. We study DZR. There are many differences between the two. Many of the arm bars that BJJ has, we teach as throws. The only thing that saves uke's arm is that he knows how to fall. If the Gracie came and put on his black belt, then he is in a dangerous position. If someone tries that technique, the Gracie will be tapping out after tori committed to the throw. Once we get this far there are only two things which can happen, the arm breaking or uke taking the right fall to protect it. The problem here is that the Gracie learning the move as a bar, would not know the fall to take and would be expecting the bar, not the throw. As you said, rank only has meaning in the system that gave it. ( the Gracie guy would learn and advance quite fast, due to his bjj experience )
All schools have rank. Some use belts. Some use jackets. Some use "advanced" vs "beginners". Some just use time in training. They all use something. In order to make training effective, it has to get more intense to match the skill of the person trying to learn. Likewize, you can't slam a beginner into the same intensity as you can the more skilled people. They may not use belts, they may not call it rank, but they do seperate people in the same way.
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As for your point about philosophy, can you provide any examples? My current stand is that it should be "If some guy tries to do this to you, just do this, or this." or "This is where you hit a guy to knock him out." etc; etc;
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This one is hard to find a concrete example for. If it were so easy to find an example, then I would agree with you that we can toss out all philosophy. What it comes down to I think is understanding why. For any given attack, there are countless responses. Why do we respond with a throw? Why don't we land on uke and add our weight to the impact? Why don't we kick him? Why don't we punch him? Why don't we knee him? Why don't we run away? The different responses that are taught in the different martial arts are all good and all bad at the same time. They all offer great advantages but also some disadvantages. Understanding the philosophy and culture and history of the people who developed the art, will help you understand why they chose that particular response to put into their art. It will help you understand what the advantages are and what the disadvantages are. It will help you understand the goal. See, a technique all by itself is very weak. Its easy to counter, it leaves you open to all kinds of attack. Thats why martial arts are taught as systems. Each technique has a before, a during and an after. You need to understand where your technique is going. The better you understand the framework of the technique ( culture, philosophy ) the better you understand how to apply it outside of the kata. This is important because you are never presented the same situations on the street as you practice in the school, no matter how hard you try, you can not practice every possible scenario. Understanding the philosophy and culture of the art allows you to adapt the art to the situation. The better your understanding of the culture and philosophy, the better you can make that adaptation.
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Yes, I know Kano created a framework to teach his ideas, and I have no problem with a set framework, or curriculum, I just meant to say that any good school/instructor is always looking to improve that framework. It should be quite obvious that to attain perfection in anything is impossible, but I think every art should strive to be the best it can. If you insist on teaching something impractical or worthless because of tradition, you're just going to become obsolete. I know people want to respect their ancestors, and cherish their legacies, but one of the keys to MA, as well as real life, is adaptability. By taking tradition too far, or being too arrogant or whatever, you're disrespecting MA as a whole, in my opinion. If it was "tradition" to live completely naked in the arctic with no sources of comfort and warmth, would you do it? If you would, you wouldn't live very long. What happens to tradition then?
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Kano's judo has been around for quite a while. It has been adapted to many other forms that fit particular needs. Many of those adaptations have since dissappeared, but Kano's judo is still here. A good martial art is only a set of tools. You must use the tools, the better you learn to use the tools, the more you can make. Screw drivers, wrenches and hammers have been around for a long time, yet they are still used to make nearly everything we use today. Sure, there have been some improvements made, but a wrench is a wrench, and to use it effectively, you still need to know how to use a wrench. The techniques in any system are not the system at all. They are tools, like wrenches, used to teach you the system. By learning the system and its tools, you will be able to invent your own things when needed on the street. Tradition in martial arts arises from what has been working for many years to teach people a certain system. If the traditions did not produce what the heads of the art wanted, it would be changed. But, so long as the tradition produces what the art wants, they will continue to be used. ( even not having any traditions, is a tradition )
This goes a long way towards helping you to find a good school. Look at the instructors. They are products of that school. They have become what that art hopes to produce. ( or very close to it anyway ) Are they what you want to be?
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As for your last point, I agree with you. But true as that is, I think there are a lot of schools/instructors that teach material that is just plain ineffective. I'm just going to hope I find something good.
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This goes back to our last point. Arts produce what they want to produce. Some want to produce money, they are very good at it. Some want to produce competitors for olympics, for MMA, for point tournaments..... They are very good at producing these. Some schools produce people who are very good at defending themselves on the street. Again, look at the instructor. Is he the kind of martial artist that you want to be?
Derek Wilson
05-25-2004, 17:42
Hey everyone, just making a quick post to let you all know that I just got back from visiting a club. I'll post more detailed information later.
Edit:
As promised, here are the details of my first Dojo visit/inspection today:
Today, I went to Glenroy Browne's Integrated Martial Arts. I had a heck of a time finding the place, but when I finally did, I approached the building and noticed numerous flyers. I suddenly became a little nervous for some reason... I guess I was worried about making myself look like an ignorant jack*** like I did in the thread I made about Systema here, for example. I guess my problem is that when I see someone/something that I feel can't back up what they're saying, I get really angry, and being the immature, childish idiot I am, I let that anger carry me away and I get very... mouthy and accusational. I REALLY overstop my bounds and stop acting like a responsible adult. But I was also a little nervous for some other reason... I don't really understand why. Oh well, just a couple of many things I need to work on to be a better person.
Anyway, I reminded myself I won't achieve my goals without working towards them, and so I told myself to calm down and just try to do my best in my inquiry, and to remain calm if I felt it was fishy. Then after standing outside for about 10 minutes, I finally went in.
The Dojo:
Glenroy Browne's Integrated Martial Arts is located on 25 Bond St. West, about a 30-45 minute walk from my house. GBIMA is both a martial arts dojo and a computer place. They offer instruction in MMA, computer parts, upgrades, etc; and Playstation 2 modchips. The front of the building has a corkboard up with a number of flyers tacked onto it. About 2 or 3 flyers advertise the computer related services and PS2 modchips they offer, and about 4 or 5 advertise the MMA aspect. One of these flyers says you can learn Submission Fighting here and discuss how valuable SF training is as 95% of all fights end up on the ground. I strongly doubt this claim, but moving on. Another flyer says you can learn Kickboxing, Boxing, JKD, TKD, Jiu-Jutsu, and Submission Fighting at GBIMA. Another one advertises the 2 months for $99 special, and I think the other two are just more about MMA instruction at GBIMA. There are also about 4 photos of Mr. Browne training in the lower left corner of the buildings front window. There are also a small number of snacks for sale, and a number of martial arts magazines and videos adorn the shelf beside the snack shelf.
The building is divided into two areas, the first area, the one you enter when entering the building, is a carpeted sitting/standing area I guess. A small chair is by the door, a beanbag type chair to your upper-right, and a desk, at which there are two computers and a chair, sits to your immediate right, right behind the front window. A small television sits up in the corner a bit over and above from the desk. A K-1 fight was on. There are a small number of weights right where the second area of the building begins; the training area.
The training area is covered with mats, and if my memory serves me correctly, a standing heavybag sits right in the middle.
The Instructor:
Mr. Browne is a pretty big black man who appears to be in his mid twenties-early thirties. If I recall correctly, he has a black belt in Jiu-Jutsu and TKD. (First degree in both, I think.) He did Karate (Don't know what style.) for 6 months, KickBoxing for a year, Boxing for 5 years, Aikido for 3 years, and Judo for 3-6 months I think.
He appears to be very nice, friendly, and down-to-earth. I discussed with him my opinions about the MA situation in North America today, which is basically that 95% of all schools are worthless, and he agreed that there are a lot of schools that are sport-oriented and don't teach anything practical. He says he really enjoyed TKD, but found a number of techniques to be worthless. He told me a story about how a guy attacked him with a knife, and Mr. Browne used a wristlock he learned in TKD class. (He may have been talking about Aikido, but I'm pretty sure it was TKD.) He employed the wristlock perfectly, but his assailant was able to defeat the wristlock by simpling closing his fist, cutting Mr. Browne's finger in the process. He says he got ticked that he was cut, and then proceeded to completely unload on the guy. And that was that.
From then on, he constantly questioned his sensei's techniques, asking how effective they really were, and even asking the sensei to use them on him, at which point, Mr. Browne demonstrated how easily they could be defeated. Much to the chagrin of his instructor.
He also believes that Aikido has the absolute best fighting philosophy in the world, but technique wise it's worthless. The one exception being is if you're being held by two guys. Then it's very good.
I also asked him about Systema. I was pleasantly suprised to learn that he was indeed familiar with it and knew the name Vladimir Vasiliev he had heard of Mikhail Ryabko, but didn't know his name. He says about three people from http://www.russiansystema.com come to spar with him regularly. How this all came about was he met a real estate agent one day and the agent told him that he was taking Systema and went on about how great it is, so Mr. Browne said "OK, show me." and sparred with him. He was unimpressed. The agent then said that he should spar with Vladimir Vasiliev.
He told me about when Systema was newly brought here, all he saw in MA magazines were articles about how great it was, how smooth, amazing, and unpredictable Systema practioners were, about how it's the ultimate, modern self-defense art, how skilled practioners could toss you around without touching you, etc; etc; And then he met that agent who also went on about how it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and like me, Mr. Browne is a man who doesn't appreciate those who make claims they are unable to backup. So after hearing all the praise and clamour for Systema, he decided to head to VV's school and spar with him.
Apparently VV said something about grappling not being all that effective, and said he could easily break the arms of anyone who tried to take him down. Confident that he would be able to easily beat Mr. Browne's grappling, he invited Mr. Browne to attempt to take him down. Mr. Browne did so with incredible ease. Twice. He said that he is usually very respectful towards fellow instructors, but he felt VV was trying to show him up, so Mr. Browne said he behaved in a disrespectful manner towards VV, saying things like "Come on, so let's see you throw me without touching me." or "Come on, try to get me off you." He was also unimpressed with the school I'm looking into, saying he asked them to show him all the fancy stuff he had heard about. They couldn't deliver, saying "You might get hurt."
So long story short, Mr. Browne's opinion is that Systema cannot back up it's claims. The very same opinon I have held regarding it since I discovered it. Of course, I will not take everything he says as truth, and I will still check out the Systema school and do my absolute best to remain as open-minded, fair, and analytical as possible. I will do my best to make the best decision I can, I was just saying. My apologies for going so far off-topic, I just wanted to share some of our thoughts and opinions.
Rates and Classes:
The price for your first two months is $99. If, after those two months, you decide to continue at GBIMMA, the price of the kids class is $65 per month, and the adult class is $75 per month. I think that despite my resemblance to a kid, it should be obvious I'm an adult... But I digress. As far as I know, there are no free classes or opportunities to watch a class. I didn't specifically ask "Do you offer say, a free class, or a free month, or anything along that line to allow people to decide if GBIMA is what they want?"
But what he said about the two month special was, like I have already said, you pay $99 for 2 months of instruction. The reasoning behind this is that he feels you improve the most in your first 2-3 months of instruction in his school. He said he could have made the offer last for 3 months, and let people become super good, but he thinks 2 months will allow for a very drastic, noticeable improvement. I don't think proficiency in something as complex as MA can be gained so quickly/easily, but I didn't bother to bring this up. So yeah, with the way our discussion went, I decided it was best to assume the $99/2 months special was all he had in the way of introductory offers.
I believe he said he holds 4-5 classes per week. Every class except the last one of the week focuses on learning technique, with a little sparring. The last class of the week is sparring, sparring, and more sparring.
Sparring:
Speaking of sparring, I will move on to what he had to say about that. In GBIMA, sparring is light. Very light. If you wish to spar hard, you may spar with Mr. Browne and go hard, he will go light. This is to show you that what he teaches works. You may also spar hard if a partner agrees to. If two people agree to, they will wear chest protectors, etc; and go all out. But for the most part it's light.
***To be Continued***
Sochin: Just how is a traditional club better than SD? Personally, I believe the opposite of that. A club that teaches something that is not applicable to what you are learning it for (i.e. Self-Defense.) is worthless in my opinion.
Guy,
read my post, eh?
geese,
Derek Wilson
05-25-2004, 20:57
The curriculum:
Mr. Browne says he teaches what you want to learn. He says different people learn different things from him. Some people like to learn super impractical and worthless fancy kicks. Some people learn grappling and won't even touch on striking. Etc; etc;
He also says he won't reserve certain techniques for Black Belts or anything like that. Although there are some guidelines. For example, you can't do any leg locks until he is sure you're ready. Reason being is that the knees and ankles break very easily.
One of the many questions I asked him was "I'm sure you know that as MMA dominate in things like the UFC, that it's becoming exponentially more popular, and everybody's jumping on the bandwagon wanting to be the next Royce Gracie, so do you teach SD, tournament fighting, or would you place yourself somewhere in between?"
(Those weren't my exact words, I didn't even mention Gracie at all, but that's what I meant to say.) Anyways, he said that he would place himself somewhere in the middle. He says he's really geared towards practical techniques, SD, etc; "I'll even teach you how to bite properly!" he said. But he also said a lot of his students love to compete.
Also, Mr. Browne says you are not required to wear a gi to class, coming to class in loose, comfortable-fitting clothing is appropriate. Mr. Browne also does away with formality at GBIMA. There's no bowing, no calling him sensei, etc; everybody just behaves as they normally would.
Tournaments and Belts:
Participation in tournaments is not mandatory at all in GBIMA. As I said, Mr. Browne said a lot of his students like to compete, but he will not force anything upon you. Your time there is spent doing what you want. As for belts, he does use them, and testing fees of $25 each must be paid for 4 belts; yellow to blue. The rest will be given to you when you earn them. However, he says you don't have to adhere to the belt system. I asked if I could stay a white belt forever but still learn everything he has to teach. He said I cool.
The verdict: Yay or Nay?
Nay.
Mr. Browne seems like a very nice person, but I don't think it's wise to trust someone who can't offer at least a free class or something. $99/2 months doesn't seem like a good introductory offer to me. Maybe as a follow up to attending a few free classes, but not as the only option available.
Also, as I said, I want absolutely nothing to do with tournaments.
As for why I posted all of this only to say "Well, it's not for me.", I just wanted to hear your thoughts. I just want to know if you agree or disagree with me. And hey, if anyone is in my area, and interested in GBIMA, they some reference material.
So if the Systema school doesn't work out either, I guess I will reconsider Musubi Dojo and Peter Phillip's Karate Dojo. (http://www.shorinryu.org)
Hey Derek, good for you,sounds like you made the right choice,but hey man,at least you saw for yourself,right? on a side note regarding Aikido as "ineffective" well..I would like to quote one of my teacher's Teachers Hiroshi Ikeda sensei.."Aikido works, your's doesn't, don't confuse the two!" Oh well, better luck on your next Dojo visit!!
-----Paul Bladen----Midwest Hapkido Group-----Hanminjok Hapkido
You made the right choice, by the only criteria that matters. It didn't feel right for you. If it doesn't feel right for you, then it probably isn't right for you.
Personally, I would have left when I found out that I couldn't watch a class; but that's me personally. Go with your gut.
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So if the Systema school doesn't work out either, I guess I will reconsider Musubi Dojo and Peter Phillip's Karate Dojo.
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Why did you initially pass on Musubi Dojo? I think everyone here respects Chris's thoughts. I looked at the web page for Musubi Dojo and it looks like a great school. I would think it was definitely worth a trip down to see it for yourself.
"Apparently VV said something about grappling not being all that effective, and said he could easily break the arms of anyone who tried to take him down. Confident that he would be able to easily beat Mr. Browne's grappling, he invited Mr. Browne to attempt to take him down. Mr. Browne did so with incredible ease. Twice. ......He was also unimpressed with the school I'm looking into, saying he asked them to show him all the fancy stuff he had heard about. They couldn't deliver, saying "You might get hurt." "
Sorry, knowing Vladimir as well as I do this sounds like complete bull - his attitude is nothing like described here. I've never seen VV be anything other than respectful and polite to anyone, certainly never heard him claim that grappling is not effective (seeing as he teaches grappling), and the "breaking someone's arm" sounds so unlike VV. Something fishy here I think.......
Ive never met Vladimir, but know many who have, and from their impressions this does sound rather out of character. I wont say it DIDNT happen, just that it is extremely unlikely.
Also, since Vlaimir and Oleg Taktarov have collaborated on at least 1 video project, and then went on to cofound the World Federation of Russian Martial Arts, I find the grappling comment unlikely as well.
It could be argued that there was no small amount of story embellishment...
Derek Wilson
05-26-2004, 16:37
Hey, believe me, I'm fully aware that story could be bull, personally I don't believe or disbelieve it. It could be that he was simply saying it to make VV/Systema look bad and make himself look good to me, but I believe it's at least possible. I mean, considering I don't think too highly of Systema right now, it doesn't suprise me that I met someone who agrees with me.
Well, there's no way to know for sure if it's true or not, so I'll reserve judgement on it.
Why dont you do yourself and everyone else a favor and dont waste your time going to se those systema guys. It would be pointless... Your so full of preconceived notions ("crap","lies", and "retarded" come to mind) that nothing less than perfection will change your mind... so, dont go.
Derek Wilson
05-26-2004, 18:32
...
What the heck did I do?
Yeah, I'll admit I have a lot of preconceived notions, but I'm still trying to remain open-minded. I know I can also be very ignorant and through that ignorance, I can sometimes be disrespectful, but it's not intentional, I'm just an idiot. I can't help it.
And I know I've probably gone too far about a number of things, Systema clearly being the biggest one, but you know what? I hate to admit just how pathetic I am, but as ashamed as I am to say it, I'm weak. Superlatively weak. When you grow up as pathetic as I have you think about how wonderful it would be to be a better and stronger person. As disgusting as and lowly, and worthless as I am, at least I'm TRYING to change.
I grew up thinking martial arts were all that, so to speak. But as I got older, I learned through research, friends, and experiences I've witnessed that my original impression of MA was wrong. Sure, they're wonderful if taught properly. It's just hard to find a good school. Sure, like I said, I may go to far with my ignorance, and being accusational, etc; but I'm tired of being who I am and want to change. Therefore, that's why I get so upset when I find something that sounds really good, but is also possibly not all it says it is.
Sgathak, you say I won't be satisfied with anything less than perfection like it's a bad thing. Who the heck is actually satisfied with less?! Or at least the best they can get?
I apologize to everyone I offended. You have every right to be mad at me, and while I certainly have no right whatsoever to go on about looking at the other side of the coin so to speak, as I have quite clearly failed miserably to do it myself, but for what it's worth, I hope you all understand me at least a little better.
You can wallow in your self pity if you want... Im not gonna worry about that right now... but as for the perfection thing... Do you know ANYONE who is perfect? Do you know ANYONE who knows the exact thing to do or say at the exact time it needs to be said or done? Do you know ANYONE who knows all there is to know? Who never misses a punch, who never misses a throw? I dont! Even the best of the best display a little flaw called humanity.
I dont want some auric guru... I want a teacher who is always learning. Who is always expanding. Who is always looking for the better solution. But to be that person, they have to know that they ARNT perfect, that they CAN improve, and that today is just ONE MORE step along the way to getting better.
So, you can look for perfect and NEVER find it... or you can find someone/thing that can guide you to where you want to be, and OWN the road to perfection yourself.
Derek Wilson
05-27-2004, 13:08
OK, there were some points made in this thread that I have not responded to. I apologize to the people that made these points, I'm not ignoring you or being rude, I just wanted to discuss my experience at a school first.
Wab25:
OK, you got me with the belt example. I thought you were studying BJJ until I read your signature, and even then, I didn't know there were such significant differences between DZR and BJJ. I'll concede the battle, but not the war.
You're probably also right in that all schools have rank as well, but I still stand by what I said about belts. It may not apply in your school, but for example, I've seen junior students smarter than senior students, and I have seen students smarter than teachers. I'm sure it's very possible that in MA, there are some lower ranked students better than higher ranked ones, and while I may sound crazy, there may even be some students better than their sensei. (After all, a good teacher teaches his/her students to surpass him/her.)
No matter what is said on the issue, I will most likely always stand by what I said about a fighter being judged by skill. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree, but in my eyes at least, belts, titles, ranks, etc; are worthless. It's not what colour of clothes you wear, what you're called, or how far you've gotten in something that matters, it's what you can do. (Although I'll admit your school sounds like it does a pretty good job in diffrentiating people of various skill levels, but generally speaking, my point still stands.)
As for what you said about philosophy, sorry but I'll have to disagree as well. I can see where you're coming from, but I think the before, during, and after a technique has more to do with an individual's specific make-up, style, and skill. For example, Judo has been said to be an effective art for small people to employ. Bigger people may opt to go the route of a more strength oriented art. Etc; etc; I just don't think philosophy is required to adapt your art to your needs, rather, it's probably better to asses your own make-up, style, and needs as acurately as possible, and then find the art that best caters to that.
As for your point about tradition, I think I may have been misunderstood, and as a result of that misunderstanding, and now that I think about it, I have probably really offended some people. I will try to better clarify my stance on tradition later in this post.
As for your last point, I agree that it can be a very good method of finding what I am looking for, but the problem is that it will probably be very hard for me to acurately judge someone after only metting them once. And for a very brief period of time at that.
Sochin:
Um... I did read your post. About 5 times. I just fail to see how it argues that a traditional club is better than SD. The only conclusion I can make is that SD is something practical and easily learned, whereas, a traditional club, while not catered to SD, can be very useful for SD, but a traditional club, being that a traditional art is much more deep with much more to it than say, "This is how you hospitalize someone.", is much more fulfilling in the long run. (I think I was thinking of other things, but I can't remember them.) Well anyway, if that's what you're trying to say, I just simply don't think that way. If I have completely missed your point, then I'm sorry, but could you please clarify for me?
Paul and Bun-Bun:
Thank you very much again for the advice/encouragement.
Wab25 (Again):
There are a number of reasons I initially passed on Musubi. First, it may be 15-20 minutes by car, but if it is where I think it is, I'm looking at a 2.5-3 hour walk at least. If it's farther than where I think it is, I doubt very much I'll ever set foot there. Yeah, Chris said I could ask someone for a ride... But I still have to get there, and I don't like just asking a complete stranger for something. "Excuse me, I don't know you, but could you go out of your way and drive me to my house despite the fact it would be nothing but a pain in the butt for you, and you don't know if I'll slit your throat while we're in the car or not?"
I don't mean to be disrespectful, it's just not how I am.
Second, they only offer three classes a week. With my schedule being the way it is, I could probably only go to one a week, if I was really lucky, two. And Chris himself even said it's not a quick fix. And as I said, I myself am aware that profiency in the MA is not easily or quickly gained. I don't want to sound impatient, but I don't need to slow down the process.
Third, this is a trivial matter, but I just want to avoid gi and belts. You probably think I'm sounding ridiculous here, but if possible, I just think it's better to train in what you normally wear, like you would in a MMA school for example. That, and I'm just a cheap *******. Why incur extra expenses on myself if I don't have to? Now before anyone gets mad at me, I'm not saying wearing gi or using belts is a sign of a bad school, I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, I'm just saying I'd like to avoid it if possible, but it's not all that important, so I won't get too hung up on it either.
Sgathak:
You misunderstand me. I am not wallowing in self pity. If I were, I wouldn't be working towards change. Yes, I'll admit that in my last post, I was overly melodramatic, but despite what I may have mistakenly implied I am absolutely not a person who just sits around whining "*Sigh* Oh look at me, I'm so worthless, *Sigh* I'm not good at anything, I'm better off dead, nobody loves me, boo, hoo, hoo."
No. Not at all. It's just that if the topic of my value as a person, or my competence at something, etc; comes up, I'm honest. That's all.
In this case all I was trying to say was if you were in my shoes, wouldn't you be angry if you saw something that appeared to be what you were looking for, but might not be?
As for perfection, no, I've never seen anyone or anything that is perfect. But I ammended the question by adding "or at least the best you could possibly get."
Anyways, it's clear that I have greatly overstepped my bounds here on a number of ocassions. In my ignorance, stupidity, and failure to be more mature and better control myself, I have said a number of things I shouldn't have, or at least in a way I shouldn't have. I am sorry for anyone I offended, my behaviour has been poor, but it wasn't intentional. For what it's worth, I will never, ever, bring Systema up here again until I have actually visited at least one school in person. (Although, I hope to go tomorrow, so, it's a very brief respite, but enjoy it while it lasts.) And as I said before, I will try to express my opinions in a more mature manner. Finally, this post has gotten pretty long, so I will have to try to better articulate my feelings on traditional schools in my next post. Sorry everyone.
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As for what you said about philosophy, sorry but I'll have to disagree as well. I can see where you're coming from, but I think the before, during, and after a technique has more to do with an individual's specific make-up, style, and skill. For example, Judo has been said to be an effective art for small people to employ. Bigger people may opt to go the route of a more strength oriented art. Etc; etc; I just don't think philosophy is required to adapt your art to your needs, rather, it's probably better to asses your own make-up, style, and needs as acurately as possible, and then find the art that best caters to that.
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We actually agree here quite a bit more than you think. You are choosing your own route, for your own reasons. You have assessed your position, and come to a conclusion for what you are looking for and what you want to find. Now, lets assume that you find all the peices you are looking for and that 30 years from now you are actually quite good at your set of techniques. You have pulled out of all the systems you have studied in that time, the pieces that are important and effective. Thus, you have created your own martial art. ( all good martial artists do this, they make the arts that they study their own ) Now, if I wanted to learn from you how to fight you could teach me your collection of moves. But, for me to really use your moves, I would need to have an understanding of why you choose those particular moves, how you set them up, where do they lead.... in essence how do you connect the moves that you have gained. The better I understand why you chose certain moves, the strategy you like to use, the goals you were trying to accomplish, the better I will be able to learn from you. Go back and reread your posts in this thread. You have a philosophy for MA, you have a strategy in mind, you know what you are looking for. The difference between you and I here is that, as a student of someone elses work, I want to understand what they were thinking when they decided on this move or that move. You, on the other hand, are trying to do your own work, put together your own system ( only the effective moves ). Just don't pass up the thousands of years of research already done in this area by people with far more martial experience than most of us will ever face. This is not a blanket statement, that it is all good. You should be skeptical about everything you uncover in your studies. But why do you really want to reinvent the wheel? Why not find a way to make it better?
As a side note: Gi's can also be used as a useful tool in learning for the street. There are many throws that we do, where we need the gi in the dojo. But, the reason we need the gi, is to keep uke's head off the ground. Without the gi, we would be headplanting each other. ( which has been known to cause a few minor injuries...) The same throw works without the gi, only the other guy doesn't get back up. So, if you want to practice it more than once, you need a gi.
I do agree though, that many places use gi's in a sporting way, they learn things that only work with a gi. While this is not optimal for the street, it does have a hidden value. In fact, anyone who wants to learn effective street techniques should take some time learning these gi techniques. The reason ( which I learned while studying on the side with some bjj guys ) is that if you can escape from a submission, while you are wearing a gi, you can easily escape on the street, when you are not wearing one. The gi is like lifting weights for your escapes. If you learn to roll and escape with a gi on, then take it off, it will be really hard to hang on to you.
Good luck in your search, let us know what you find.
Derek Wilson
05-27-2004, 14:17
OK, I will now try to clarify my stance on tradition. One of the things that made me realize I may have said something I did not mean to, and consequently offended a good number of people/made myself look more ignorant and stupid than I actually am was Musubi's site. I was browsing it again the other night, and noticed they said they were a traditional club...
I thought "Oh yeah... What I've said could possibly be taken to mean I think all traditional clubs are bad... And Chris and a lot of other people are probably really mad at me... Oh well."
The second thing was the point about Judo Wab25 made.
So to anyone I may have offended through my failure to be clearer, I hope you will accept my apology.
Now, I'm not all that articulate, but I'll do my best to express my opinion on this more appropriately:
OK, this is hard to explain, and I'm not good at making up examples either, but I hope these will suffice:
Let's say in some made up country, it's traditional to fight wars primitively, say, with swords and spears only or something. Now, let's say "Dubya" in his thinly disguised quest to take over the world, decides
"Hmm... That looks like a nice country to relax in while I am being used as a pawn by people/corporations more powerful/influential than I to force "democracy" (Read: Totalitarianism.) upon the entire world."
So, he decides to nuke them into submission.
"The abundance of primitive weaponry is clearly an indication that they are hiding weapons of mass destruction."
And the country's tradition and it's resolve to abide by it no matter what being what they are, they are easily obliterated. A puppet government is installed that somehow pushes them further into poverty, and America lives happily ever after.
(Now, I know that after saying I would make an effort to express my opinions more maturely, this may not seem like a good example, but understand I'm not insulting every American or anything, I just think very poorly of the government. And we can use a little satire in our lives.)
The country's tradition itself was not bad, (Hey, I love swords myself.) the country itself was not bad, but it's obstinance in refusing to adapt to the world around it was.
It's like, say, an MA that states the practioner is to fight from a defensive Cat stance and a defensive Cat stance ONLY. (You'll realize why I used this example later.) Any deviance from this art's strict tradition (Which includes, but is not limited to, fighting in another stance, training in another art, etc) is met with expulsion.
Obviously, abiding by this tradition is not going to get you anywhere except either a hospital or graveyard. Strictly abiding by this tradition is what is bad here. In order for this made up art to become much better it needs to adapt. Some people would think making any change to this would be the utmost wrong doing. This is the kind of thinking I have problem with. It's like what Kano said about a mighty oak tree breaking in the wind when the willow branch bends and returns to it's original form. I can't explain this very well, but I think change and adapting to the requirements of your environment are of the utmost importance. I think in MA, this can be done while maintaining tradition.
For example, did you know there is an offensive Cat stance? Well, the people at Peter Phillips' Karate Dojo didn't until 5 years ago. This is what my friend had to say about Shorin-Ryu Karate one time:
He said the man who brought Shorin-Ryu over here was a very smart man. He was friendly, intelligent, and really knew the philosophy of the art. However, (If I remember this right.) he had not learned everything there is to Shorin-Ryu before bringing it over. Furthermore, nothing you could do would ever get him to spar. Therefore, what was brought over was incomplete. 5 years ago, Peter Phillips met a man named Eihachi Ota. According to what I have heard and read, he is a very powerful individual.
He showed Phillips a great number of things that were being done wrong or that could be improved. One of these things was the Cat stance. In SR, there was just the one. But Ota demonstrated that all you have to do is shift your weight forward, and voila! I don't know about you, but I think a punch thrown from an offensive Cat stance is much more powerful than one thrown from a defensive one. Another thing was kata. In SR, kata was very rigid and structured. My friend showed me one kata where you fight a guy in front of you, then after finishing him off, you turn to face a guy behind you. But the way you turn says you know exactly where the guy is. If you can't see him, you have no idea what he's doing, or where he's going, so now, you look around in that kata. And it was just small things like that that really revolutionized how SR is taught at PPKD now. According to my friend, it's an excellent club. And I trust his judgement pretty strongly, seeing as how I've known him since I was 11, and he's a smart, no nonsense kind of guy.
(And as for why I made this thread instead of going there, again, I think the schedule will pose a problem. It's also pretty far. But I hope to go there someday at least.)
Anyways, I hope this helped. I don't mean to say all tradition and all traditional clubs are bad, just the ones that are blinded by it. (Tradition.)
I thought you said you were bad with examples..... This is a great example for my philosophy point.
======================
For example, did you know there is an offensive Cat stance? Well, the people at Peter Phillips' Karate Dojo didn't until 5 years ago. This is what my friend had to say about Shorin-Ryu Karate one time:
He said the man who brought Shorin-Ryu over here was a very smart man. He was friendly, intelligent, and really knew the philosophy of the art. However, (If I remember this right.) he had not learned everything there is to Shorin-Ryu before bringing it over. Furthermore, nothing you could do would ever get him to spar. Therefore, what was brought over was incomplete. 5 years ago, Peter Phillips met a man named Eihachi Ota. According to what I have heard and read, he is a very powerful individual.
He showed Phillips a great number of things that were being done wrong or that could be improved. One of these things was the Cat stance. In SR, there was just the one. But Ota demonstrated that all you have to do is shift your weight forward, and voila! I don't know about you, but I think a punch thrown from an offensive Cat stance is much more powerful than one thrown from a defensive one. Another thing was kata. In SR, kata was very rigid and structured. My friend showed me one kata where you fight a guy in front of you, then after finishing him off, you turn to face a guy behind you. But the way you turn says you know exactly where the guy is. If you can't see him, you have no idea what he's doing, or where he's going, so now, you look around in that kata. And it was just small things like that that really revolutionized how SR is taught at PPKD now. According to my friend, it's an excellent club. And I trust his judgement pretty strongly, seeing as how I've known him since I was 11, and he's a smart, no nonsense kind of guy.
========================
What Ota brought in the kata, was a philosophy change. He made the kata a little more real to a multiple attacker scenario. With the idea that you look around, perhaps he was trying to say that you should look around after the conclusion of what ever you do, to be certain you are done. And also to be ready for the next attacker. You don't always know that there are more than one attacker up front. The philosophy he brought was to always be looking for more.
Sure, thats pretty simple. But the Karate instructor needed to be shown, as did your friend..... That piece in that kata, that whole idea, though very important, was almost lost.
But, here is the next question. We learn that this particular kata is teaching about multiple attackers. Yet, in this kata, you completely finish one attacker before moving on to the next. Why? In my system, we teach not to focus on any one attacker, because if we get too focused on one, the others will get us from behind. The downside is that we have to face more of the attackers a little longer. So, again, why does that system teach you to finish the first one before going on to the next? It could be because they felt that if they could finish one attacker, then there is one less to fight. Which makes sense, except that no you are too focused on one and not the group. See the trade off? The philosophy, history and culture will tell you a lot, about why they made the trade off that they did. Maybe, they thought finish the first, so that there is one less attacker to deal with. In this case, I should adopt this and use it. Maybe, they got this idea from a battlefield, where you will probably die anyway, so at least you should kill one of them before you go. ( hopefully, you will kill more than one ) In this case, maybe this tactic would not be the best, since we are not on a battlefield, but on the street and our goal is to go home tonight. However, you may be in a situation where if you take out the leader fast enough, the others will back down, in which case this tactic is still valid. Maybe, their culture had this thing with honor, like it would be more honorable to die fighting your enemy than if you had actually survived, would you still value this tactic the same on the street? And yet the kata still teaches the same ideas of being aware and ready at all times for the unknown. Also note here that what is most important is the principal behind the movements, not the movements themselves. They are merely tools to teach you a principal of multiple attacker scenarios.
Hopefully, this will show better what I mean when I say that philosophy, culture and history can help us to better understand and thus better able to apply what we learn.
KZMiller
05-27-2004, 22:00
Just a side note about gis: they spare you a lot of money in the end. If I trained in street clothes I'd go through about three shirts each class and probably a pair of pants a week. Gis are strong and hold together. That's their job.
If you didn't have to go out of your way to train, you'd be training right now, right? Don't let yourself fall victim to too many excuses. One day a week of training is better than zero. I understand it's difficult to ask someone you don't know for a ride, but someone is *offering* and that's different. The etiquette for this situation is "Thank you very much!" and maybe you can offer to share gas money, give them a thank you card (that's a girlie thing to do, but I'm a girl ... mainly posted it because it's an option) or a small gift of some kind.
I sympathize regarding the long walk scenario. It's about a 2 hour walk to the grocery store from my place, never mind getting back with groceries. When it stormed too hard to drive, I was grateful for my freezer and a full pantry. Which brings me to a question. You say you're weak. Do you mean physically? If so, maybe you can come up with a training program until you find your school. Farm work will make you strong quickly and sometimes you even get paid for it. There's all kinds of suggestions throughout this board for home training. Read up on them. They're great.
Good luck on your quest!
Derek Wilson
05-27-2004, 23:53
Wab25:
You are right in that I have assessed myself and chosen my path, but I still disagree that philosophy has anything to do with how one uses an MA they have learned. To continue from your example, if I were to become a good martial artist, and you somehow came to be my student, I could say "Punch a guy in the jaw to knock him out." because my philosophy is to end a fight as quickly as possible.
Now you could understand what I'm saying, and should you get into a fight, you could do as I instructed and go for your assailant's jaw, but all of that has absolutely nothing at all to do with how well you punch. The quality of your punch would be determined by physical factors such as your own strength and speed, whether you snapped your wrist or not, your acuracy, etc;
The quality of your punch is not determined by mental factors such as attitude, philosophy, how smart you are, etc;
As for the wheel comment... I'm not trying to reinvent anything, I'm only trying to be the best in what I want to do.
Sure, Ota really showed PPKD the light in regards to Shorin-Ryu, and yes, the changes he brought made how SR is taught there much better, and therefore the quality of the school and what they produce went up greatly. I think the only mental factor that can influence how well you fight is your own intelligence. But that's just for fighting overall, I still don't think it has anything to do with technique. (So my punching example still stands.)
As for your SR question, I am sorry, but I am just plain not qualified to answer it. What I know about SR amounts to about jack ****. My friend, who knows a lot about it, is currently in Europe for about two weeks, so I'll ask him for you when I see him again.
KZMiller:
About your training comment, I am not falling victim to excuses at all. I said I'm working towards change, and I freaking meant it.
a) I may seem overly hesitant, yes, I've always wanted to take MA, but only recently have gotten into a position where it just might actually be possible. And only have been more seriously considering it for a short while. About a month or 2 at most I'd say.
b) You might say even a month or two is too long to wait, especially with all the time I've lost on top, but I intend to start soon.
(I would give the exact date I intend to start, but whenever I say I'm going to do something... Something happens that keeps me from doing it... If I say I hope to do something, I can usually do it whenever/however I said I'd do it. Yeah, it may sound crazy, but it's true. For example, I could say, win a million dollars, and announce to everyone that "I am buying a house tomorrow. The address is 123 Fake Street." and I swear to god, despite there being no way it couldn't happen, it wouldn't happen. I'd get robbed, scammed, killed, or the house would blow up, etc; It happens every time without fail.)
Anyways, I hope to start soon. I'd say I will for sure, but nothing is absolute, so I will settle for "If everything goes as planned, I will start soon."
So as long as I don't suddenly get hospitalized, killed, robbed, the school I decide to attend closes down, then I will hopefully be good to go. Also, don't you think it's appropriate to shop around? I don't know about you, but personally I think it's pretty stupid to just buy something without doing any research. It would be like buying a used car from someone on impulse, only to find some guy on the next street over has a better car for sale at half the price you bought the crappier car for. I know I shouldn't be screwing around, but I'm not the type to just jump into something.
As for the ride... No one is offering. Chris said I could probably swing a ride with someone... That doesn't say I would definitely get a ride. And I know the proper etiquette to use when expressing gratitude to someone for something.
Yes, 1 class a week is better than none. But 3 classes a week are better than 1. And 5 classes a week are better than 3. (Assuming the quality of instruction at those places is equal.) MD sounds like a good school, but it's not the only one.
I definitely sympathize with you regarding groceries... I live a 40 minute walk from the place I used to shop, and an hour and a half from the place I intend to shop from now. (I found a cheaper store. Yay.) Walking home carrying a backpack that was so full of groceries it was nearly impossible to zip up while the strap cuts into your back like it's trying to tear off your shoulder is not very pleasant.
I am weak in just about every way possible. I was mostly referring to my physical strength when I said I was weak, but yeah, I'm mentally weak and other things too.
As for training, I started to work on conditioning when I started considering MA. You see, from when I started to seriously consider it up until about when I made this thread, I was going for Boxing. My thinking was as I said, "Well, MA themselves aren't bad, but 95% of the schools in North America are absolutely worthless. (Maybe I'm being way too general, but this is based on what I've seen.) So while it's far from perfect, in my opinion, Boxing is very good, and it's more than likely vastly better than anything I'll find in this ********." and as childish as this will surely sound, another factor in my original decision to go with Boxing was a manga (The Japanese word for "Comic".) called Hajime no Ippo. It's a boxing manga about a weak Japanese teenager named Makunouchi Ippo who gets picked on, and because of that, wants to be a Boxer to become strong. (I could elaborate, but I'm lazy.) I'm like Ippo, but just not nearly *that* bad. Anyways, on one hand, it's very crappy. It's a lot like DBZ in how characters get stronger and in how predictable it is. I actually love DBZ, but god, it SUCKS. It just manages to compensate for it's unimaginable lack of quality by being so darn fun. Ippo is a lot like that, but not that bad. Anyways, some of the fights are just incredible. I mean, yeah, it's a fictional story, and as an action oriented story aime towards young men, it's certainly exxagerrated, but, even if they are just lines of ink on pieces of paper, seeing people work so hard to become strong and then violently throwing all of the strength they worked so hard to get at each other in explosive battle just really gets me going. It's incredible. It sounds silly, but I kind of want to be like that.
Well, sorry I got so far off topic, I just love to go on about manga. Anyways, yeah, I was going to take Boxing, so I was working on increasing my stamina so I could endure my lessons. Then, I talked to my friend, and told him about all this, and for the most part, he agreed with me on what I expressed about MA in North America, but he said PPKD is good. And seeing as how my goal is to learn how to fight, and not fitness (I'm weak, but pretty healthy otherwise.) or competition, PPKD would be better as Karate isn't as limited as Boxing.
So then I was going to go to PPKD. But then I decided I would see if I could find something even better... Which I am currently working on. Anyway, I'm now doing a little weight-lifting and bag hitting at my friend's store.
As for gi, I didn't know all of that. They sound better than I originally thought.
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The quality of your punch would be determined by physical factors such as your own strength and speed, whether you snapped your wrist or not, your acuracy, etc;
The quality of your punch is not determined by mental factors such as attitude, philosophy, how smart you are, etc;
===============
Actually, the mental factors have a great deal to do with it. You may practice a punch a million times, but when you try to use it, I can garruntee that you will not be able to punch just as you practiced it. They are not going to stand there and let you get your proper form off. This is the difference between kata and sparring and fighting. They each make you apply what you learned differently. Once a fight starts, you won't be able to walk up and punch him in the jaw. You will have to set it up. How well you set it up depends on how good your strategy is, and how well you understand what is going on, along with how well you adapt your training to the new situation.
The questions I had, concerning multiple attackers, were not specifically for any martial art. Nor was I looking for an answer, I have one that I like. They were part of my example, for what does philosophy have to do with fighting. Well, a fight consists of more than one single move. I was trying to explain that the philosophy that you study, will determine how you put your moves together. If you really think about it, there are not that many punches out there. What makes a karate punch different than a TKD punch or a boxing punch or a muay tai punch or a JKD punch or a jujitsu punch..... is the philosophy. But if you want to limit philosophy to one move, a punch to the jaw, you still need to know your goal, and your setup is determined by your goal. I can show you how to punch someone in the jaw and bloody their lip, or knock them out or dislocate their jaw or break their neck or sever their spinal column. Each one of these requires a different set up, a different technique, a different goal, and different emphasis. Each is a very different outcome. It is your philosophy that tells you which to use. ( like it or not, there are consequences to our actions ) On top of all that, if you don't know when to throw the punch, it does not matter how well you threw it. The philosophy of your art will help you throw the punch at the right time.
I guess this may be a little too advanced for you now, but someday you will look back and agree. A martial art has nothing to do with the techniques it teaches. A martial art is about principals and philosophy. The techniques it teaches, are merely tools to teach you the principals and philosophy, which in fact, are the art. It is not that any technique is the best for this situation because it is the most effective. Most of the time the technique you learn for that situation is the best technique because it teaches the principal the best. Once you understand the principal and the philosophy, you are then free to use any technique at any time, and those techniques will be 100 times more effective, because you know how and when to use them. We have a professor in our system that has put out a challenge for anyone to find any technique from any system that is not on our lists. ( we only have about 300 techniques ) People from all different styles have tried, bjj, tkd, karate, animal forms in kung fu, tai chi, capoiera.... he can show you where every one of their techniques is on our list. This is because he understands the principals and philosophy of our system. I would also bet that most other, good martial arts systems could do the same, providing some one understood it to that degree. Anyone can teach you to punch. But if you don't know how to use it, you will never be able to. ( hint: you will never see on the street, what you practice in the school )
Derek Wilson
05-28-2004, 20:52
Hey everyone. I just got back from my visit at the Systema school. They were kind enough to allow me to participate in class free of charge. I'll go into more detail later, but overall, the experience was good. It hasn't removed all my doubts, but the instructor was very nice and friendly, the students were just as hospitable, and we learned some really neat stuff. (Most of which I've already forgetten or can't do worth ****, but hopefully I'll get the hang of it eventually.)
I still have nagging doubts and concerns, but I wasn't disgusted by the experience as I expected. And like I said, everyone is nice and friendly, the atmosphere is really good, so while I can't say after one class if it's what I'm looking for, my experience was good enough to convince me to further pursue it. Hopefully, I've found a piece of the puzzle.
Enrollment fees are based on a year enrollment, but I don't think you necessarily have to commit to that year. As I understand it, you can pick a plan, and pay the fee for the full year, get a 10% discount and 2 free tapes or DVDs. For example, one plan is a class per week. The cost is $10 per class, $40 per month, or $120 for three months, and $480 for the full year. So, I have the option of either paying $120 every three months, or I pay $432 (Because of the 10% discount.) and get 2 free tapes or DVDs.
I'm thinking of going for the three class per week plan. $6.20 per class, $80.75 per month, and $242 for three months.
I have to say I much prefer what just about all schools offer; a flat rate that gets you unlimited classes. (PPKD = $65/month, GBIMA = $75/month, etc)
But I can see the advantage to this. If you're so busy that you can only take a class a week, at least you're not paying as much. So, I don't know. What do you guys think about this? Good deal?
Personally, I get worried anytime I have to do multiplication in order to figure out how much I'll be paying; but that's a personal thing. I would definitely find out first if you have to commit to a year-- if you do, then leave very quickly. If not, if you can get away with monthly or trimonthly payments, then you're in a much safer place.
Also...
The quality of your punch would be determined by physical factors such as your own strength and speed, whether you snapped your wrist or not, your acuracy, etc;
The quality of your punch is not determined by mental factors such as attitude, philosophy, how smart you are, etc;
Sorry, but the mental factors do determine the quality of your punch. Emotion, focus, and intelligence all contribute directly to accuracy and clean technique. You may be able to punch better than Joe in practice; but if he keeps a cooler head in the real situation, his punches will be stronger.
Well, glad you wernt completely disgusted...
I have no idea why that school chose to set up its scheme like that, but our school is fairly similar. The reasoning for that at our school is we have alot of people who can only attend sporadically... On-call Doctors, SWAT Cops, Military, a few Feds, even the occasional SF guy up from Ft Carson. These guys can rarely commit to much more than the day they are standing there... and even then Ive seen a few guys get called out in the middle of class to go to work. Alternativly... We have College students who put down 3 months worth of dues from say, their student aide money, and pick up a discount so in the long run it saves them money. It provides a flexible payment arrangement if you can buy... say... a 20 class punch card that you can use whenever, OR a month of unlimited classes, OR a single class, OR 3 months for the price of 2, OR a free DVD and a discount when you pay for the year in advance and the peace of mind of not having to worry "did I get my check in this month?". Dont worry - The sky isnt falling.
lightninrod
05-29-2004, 18:40
When I signed up at the Bujinkan Atlanta Dojo way back when, they also had a payment arrangement deal. You had to sign up for a year or a year-and-a-half. You could pay it all up front, or you could pay it out in monthly payments; but you were obligated for the duration of the training contract. The reason for this was to filter out those who weren't willing to make a real commitment to training. The only way out was if you lived more than a certain distance from the dojo, got called up for military duty, or had a medical problem which prohibited further training. (That's why I eventually quit attending.) I've heard of schools that do this just to get your money, but I never felt that I was being taken advantage of because I defenitely got what I was paying for. So it just goes to say - not all schools that work this way are money-grubbing.
Justin Mears
Not all are money-grubbing; but there's an awful lot that can happen in a year. You might lose your job, have kids, move away, or what-have-you. My experience is that 3 months seems to be the standard-- most schools demand that much of a commitment from you. After that time, however, if you and the school aren't working out, it's best for both parties to go their own ways.
It's not that the school is necessarily greedy if they demand such a long commitment (although some are!); it's that it's not a safe investment for you to commit to such a deal.
Derek Wilson
06-02-2004, 18:08
On the subject of technique quality, and the relevance of philosophy to MA:
OK, I was wrong in saying that attitude, intelligence, and strategy are irrelevant to fighting. In fact... I don't know what the heck I was thinking when I said that. (I should know the importance of mental strength better than most, seeing as it's all I have right now.......)
However, I still, and probably will always maintain that philosophy has no relation to how well a person fights. I'm not knocking philosophy, in fact, I love philosophy, but it has no place in combat.
On the subject of Systema:
Well, I decided to go with this for now. I had my free class last Friday, came back Monday, gave them $85 out of the $242 I owe them for three months, so now I have to give them two post dated cheques for $78.50. (They're letting me do this because I can't afford to pay them $242 up front.)
I would have done all of this today and be in my third class right now except that my bank no longer gives me blank cheques. Which makes me wonder WHY THE HECK I'M PAYING FOR A ******* CHEQUEING ACCOUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! But anyways, I have to go switch banks tomorrow morning, get some bloody cheques, then go to the school where I will have an "agreement" waiting for me.
This really worries me, especially since I've already given them some money, and so they can make me sign to things that they never mentioned before, but hopefully it will all work out OK.
===================
OK, I was wrong in saying that attitude, intelligence, and strategy are irrelevant to fighting. In fact... I don't know what the heck I was thinking when I said that. (I should know the importance of mental strength better than most, seeing as it's all I have right now.......)
However, I still, and probably will always maintain that philosophy has no relation to how well a person fights. I'm not knocking philosophy, in fact, I love philosophy, but it has no place in combat.
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Here is a little tip. Strategies are based on philosophies. The strategy that you use in a fight, is based upon your philosophy. When you learn someone elses strategy for a fight, that strategy is based on someone elses philosophy. The better you understand the philosophy, the better you will understand the strategy. The better you understand the strategy, the better you will be able to use it in a fight.
When an attacker rushes in attacks you, there are very many responses that you can use. The philosophy that I study, says to use your attackers strength and momentum against him. Thus, my strategy becomes, get him to rush in or commit to a movement, then use that movement to throw him or apply a lock/break. As a result, I let him come close, I do not stop him, I blend with his motion to find the technique. In the dojo, I throw him. In the bar, maybe I redirect his head into the bar, adding my weight behind it, then I kick the back of his knees as his head bounces off the bar, and punch him in the throat to help him fall backwards to the floor. Understanding my philosophy, helps me to use the strategy that I practice in the dojo, even though my physical environment will not allow me to use the throw which I practiced. Because I understand the philosophy, I can adapt what I learned. When I am practicing, if I understand the philosophy, I can focus my practice. When learning to throw, I am not learning to lift heavy weight, I am not learning to stop someones force. I am learning to redirect anothers strength.
There are other philosophies out there. Some result in using body frame and rooting to stop him cold in his tracks with a punch or kick. Yes these can be effective as well, if you know how to use them. I can punch pretty hard, and kick pretty well. But since I don't understand this philosophy or this strategy of stopping them cold, out at a distance, I would have a big disadvantage if I reacted that way, even if my punch was sufficient to stop him and executed properly. However, people that understand that philosophy and strategy would be very effective by responding in such a manner.
In order to fully understand a technique, you need to understand the strategy it is being used in. To fully understand the strategy, you must understand the philosophy. To fully understand the philosophy, you must understand the culture. To understand the culture, you must understand the history around that culture. These kind of things define for you what winning is, what losing is, what are the priorities, what are the rules. For some martial arts, winning is defined by battlefield success, for some it is defined by honor, for some it is by survival, for some it is by successfully protecting another...... Just this one simple question, what is the definition of winning, tells a lot about the martial art and its strategy and thus technique.
I use different terms than Wab does; but it amounts to the same thing.
In my book, strategy is your overall goal, and tactics are what you do to accomplish that. So, my "strategy" is identical to what he's describing as "philosophy" and my "tactics" are identical to his "strategy". And in order to win any fight, you need to have a strategy.
The philosophy you have will determine how you fight, and what kind of arts will be suitable for you. For example, let's say you want an effective self-defense style. Well, running away is the most effective self-defense strategy there is. Everything you do in combat is therefore geared to making it so you can run away. Your entire philosophy and fighting techniques will be based on you running away as soon as possible, which means you'll prefer to do certain things over others-- you won't be as interested in submission grappling, or trading blows; you'll be more interested in going through him to reach the exit, and crippling him enough to make sure he can't give chase.
I see what you mean-- contemplating one's navel has no place in a fight-- but philosophy and meditation do have very important roles to play in combat.
renegade
11-04-2005, 16:05
Hi Derek. Just commenting on your observations on Leo Wong's dojo. I found this thread because I just happened to be running a google search to find some info on the web about that dojo today. I just finished talking to a young lad at a local sports store while shopping for heavy bags and we started talking about local clubs. This guy was really enthusiastic about Leo's and said he and his 2 brothers have trained there for years and compete across canada. He also said Leo has an impressive olympic background and the club's awards are large and impressive. Sounded pretty good coming from a guy who has no personal stake in the place so I'll be checking it out soon.
I didn't quite grasp what you were looking for. Leo's seems so far like a spot-on place to go if you're looking for a solid amateur sports fighting club, and seems to have some good self-defence programs running so I'd at the very least suggest you at least give a look for yourself and then decide if it's for you. I work in a jail and I can tell you that the inmates with no self-defence training, but who have competed as amateur boxers routinely kick the stuffing out of the kinds of street punks you're likely going to run into from a self-defence point of view, so a club that offers both sure doesn't hurt, and Leo's does. I'll try to remember to reply back here after I've checked it out for myself so I can let you guys know how it looks.
Cdnronin
11-04-2005, 20:18
When I started reading this thread I was going to suggest Glenroy Browne's club. I had the chance the chance to have a private session with him this summer, and was impressed, just couldn't fit it into my schedule.
But you have made the most important step, you have started somewhere.
Keep at it, get a base in an art, then you can expand from there, if you are not satisfied with all aspects of your chosen art(nothing wrong with that).
renegade
11-05-2005, 20:47
anyone know any good muay thai clubs in this area? All the good ones seem to be in toronto, too far for me :(
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