Kyo Jitsu

[Zero]

What are your thoughts on Kyo Jitsu?

I would like to talk about kyo jitsu in the juho context. To be successful in a technique, the attacker must be in kyo. I believe there are four main ways on achieving kyo. I will use maki gote as an example.

1. Atemi kyo. Get the opponent in kyo by doing atemi to their vital points. This does not work all the time among students as they do not hit atemi. Therefore, it is faked kyo, for the most part. In the case of maki gote, the free hand could meuchi during kagite.

2. No jitsu kyo (for lack of a better term). As the opponent attempts to grab, move the grabbing point with a timing so the opponent never gets in a jitsu position. As he is grabing he is already being thrown (or whatever). This way works very well with idori techniques.

3. Violent/relax kyo (for lack of a better term). The oppenent grabs and attains jitsu, defender violently uses strength for a brief moment in a direction and suddenly relaxes. The opponent, who was originally waiting for a stimuli, reacts to the sudden stimuli by trying to grip harder and adjust. By relaxing, the defender fools the opponents reflexes (or whatever, brain, body, reaction) to also become kyo. I can't explain why the attackers body does this, but it works, try it if you like.

4. Absolute speed method. Actually, this method can throw an opponent without kyo. I believe this is too complex and deserves its own thread. But you can get an idea by reading this excellent interview with master swordsman Kuroda Tetsuzan:
http://www.bugei.com/kuroda.html
Very interesting to people who understand what they are reading.

Kyo is something that must be used instanly, as a good opponent will not stay it kyo for long. However, with the absolute speed method, timing becomes irrelevant.

I welcome your original thoughts.

Zero Nero

[Ewok85]

For those of us with rusty memories... whats kyo?

[David Dunn]

Leon - check your Fukudokuhon on "atemi no go yoso."

Zero, I find the subject of creating kyo for juho very challenging. I guess Mizuno Sensei has a 'no-jitsu' approach on the whole, although not exclusively. He explains that kagite shuho is not a fixed position but a sensor that enables you to react to the applied force, so as to make kuzushi in the attacker - a 'no-jitsu' method. However, to initialise a juho technique against a very strong and unyielding grip, the 'push-pull' idea (of Mori Sensei) is one that he uses, although it relies on being completely relaxed and avoiding using strength.

Use of atemi to create kyo is a practical option. However it seems such a lame approach to an awkward training partner - "he'd go down if you kicked him in suigetsu first" is such an unsatisfying approach.

[Ewok85]

The psychological aspect is something I've been looking at lately. In kendo trying to work out what the other person is going to do is very very hard. And trying to land a good shot is also very hard. But I have a couple of times put people off balance by quickly focusing my sight over their shoulder, which confuses them for a moment, just enought to move without being blocked.

How you position you body will affect how your opponent attacks you, and so in a way you can 'create' your own kyo to tempt an opponent (harai uke geri does this if my memory is right). But somple things like being in left kamae means that your left side is more 'open'.

I've trained with some other arts and they find my reflex meuchi interesting. At first it looks like just a supefluous flick but when i explained (and ask my partner if they minded) and showed how its used they thought it was interesting. That and 'throwing' the opponents hand away after katame waza. Can you think of anything we take for granted that aren't quite normal?

[David Dunn]

How you position you body will affect how your opponent attacks you, and so in a way you can 'create' your own kyo to tempt an opponent (harai uke geri does this if my memory is right). But somple things like being in left kamae means that your left side is more 'open'.

Leon, all kamae have kyo in them. It's partly a recognition that we cannot cover all of our weak points in one go (*). Each kamae then tries to limit the possibilities for the attacker. E.g. taiki gamae makes kyo in jodan, hasso gamae makes kyo in chudan.

(*) unless you've got a kevlar body suit.

[Ewok85]

But in this case you are controlling the weakness' so are they still a liability? Or would that now make it some kind of sen?

[Zero]

Kyo Jitsu is not really something that you find in different stances. Those are just open spots with a bad kamae. With a proper kamae with a seichusen, there should be no "open" spots just spots that look open. So, having a bad taiki gamae doesnt mean that the opponent is in kyo. That is called sasoi (inducing an attack). This does not mean that it is actually open, but induces the opponent to sense that it is open, attacks, and loses.

Praciticing attaining kyo by never letting your opponent get jitsu is fine, but one must practice on both. By exploring how to attain kyo once your partner has attained jitsu, one can learn more and gain better technique.

[David Dunn]

Zero,
I'm clear that the "open" areas in kamae are not unguarded. Does that mean that they are therefore also jitsu though? Is the person either wholly kyo or wholly jitsu, or is there an interplay between kyo and jitsu in any given situation? Do you have any comment on this passage from the Baseball profound study goho book:


Taiki gamae is a stance that invites a jodan attack.... Whenever you take up a stance you must be clearly conscious of the areas it establishes as jitsu and which as kyo. In taiki gamae, to invite a jodan attack you make that part kyo, while making chudan and below jitsu to prevent attacks from coming there.

I'm interested in the discussion because I think that kyo-jitsu is one of the most important subjects in Shorinji Kempo, and one that is usually glossed over.

[David Dunn]

I think that it is a mistake to judge kyo as bad and jitsu as good. In fact the expression kyojitsu ichinyo can be found in some old martial schools.

A good taiki gamae has both kyo and jitsu. The apparent opening in jodan is kyo, because it is a falsehood. You want your opponent to focus (jitsu) on hitting there. Another example is jun/gyaku geri chi ichi. The first me-tsuki is kyo - it is a feint and therefore a falsehood. The kinteki geri is jitsu. You try to induce your opponent's jitsu to be covering the jodan attack (your kyo), which makes his gedan kyo, coinciding with your jitsu. If you think about these examples you can see that they include physical and psychological kyo-jitsu.

Understanding kyojitsu is understanding that there is an inter-relation between kyo and jitsu in yourself, and between yourself and other people.

[Zero]

Is kyojitsu ichinyo really just talking about having different parts of kyo and jitsu together in kamae or techniques? If it is that simple (which it very well could be) I don't know if they would make an actual saying for that. Apparent openings and fakes are obviously part of the techniques, so I wonder if it really means something deeper. Could it mean that for techniques to be executed we need uke as jitsu, and tori as kyo, and they must be go ju ittai to attain kyojitsuichinyo, which is the true meaning of kumite shutai? For me, the way these three fit together totally makes sense and seems the most logical.
Zero Nero

[David Dunn]

Zero,
I'm guilty of oversimplification. The expression 'kyojitsu ichinyo' is wider than budo. If you look at the three branches (santei), under 'wisdom' you find that 'kyojitsu' is listed. My Japanese colleague tells me that there is a day-to-day meaning of lying and telling the truth, but that there is also a deeper Chinese, philosophical origin of empty and substantial. Just to show that it is a Zen concept in general, here is a quotation from a paper by Brownstein, discussing Meiji poetry:


Realism and Idealism

Early Meiji discussions of realism and idealism were shaped in part by a native aesthetic that dated back to the Chinese and haikai poetics of the Tokugawa period and is referred to as kyojitsuron. The term kyo denoted the lyrical or subjective element in a poem in contrast to lines of natural description, but also in a larger sense, the fictitious or imaginary as opposed to the true or the real. The statement by the playwright Chikamatsu Monzaemon, 1653-1725, `Art is something that lies in the slender margin between the real (jitsu) and the unreal (kyo),' is an oft-cited version of this concept. But kyo also had a metaphysical dimension derived from Chinese philosophy where it signifies the 'formless' or 'empty' ground of being. The notion that art results from the tension between jitsu, or 'that which corresponds to objective reality,' and kyo, which may be loosely defined as 'subjective coloring', was a critical commonplace for men of letters by the beginning of the Meiji period...

I will dig out a passage that I found by a Tokugawa writer called Kitamura Tokoku, in which he describes michi as kyo and man as jitsu. Anyway, the point I was making is that kyo and jitsu don't have the attributes of bad and good. They simply are two sides of nature in zen thinking. In terms of hokei in Shorinji, it is clear that kyo is as useful or useless as jitsu if used appropriately or otherwise. Just like go and ju.

If you do a google search for kyojitsu in Shiatsu you'll find a heck of a lot of writing about balance of kyojitsu.

[Tripitaka of AA]

David Dunn, "man of letters" :bow:

[Ade]

Evening all, nice to be back, what did Tony do? :eek:

[Ewok85]

No such thing as a 'gi'? ;)

Came down pretty hard on him but he's pretty persistant.

[Ade]

A mere bagatelle in comparison to his pre-cons, is this forum really strict then? If so why does Zero get away with no name? God I miss e-budo. :cry:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hi Ade

George Kohler posted yesterday that E-Budo is being put back together again as we speak. No ETA for the great comeback though.

Tony's departure from here was as a result of various posts (the usual; Gi/Dogi, Religion, .... well those two really), that got out of hand. The advice to "be nice" was met with "should I be nice to the KKK?", the advice to "tone it down" was met with "I speak the truth, should I lie?".... all the usual things.

The Mods tried to persevere via Email but decided that the disruptive behaviour outweighed the positive benefits that having an expert opinion on hand might bring.

As for his banning from Martial Arts Planet, I have yet to hear on that one, but I'll wager that it is a similar story.

Too much Kyo in his Jutsu I guess. Sorry David D, I went a little off-piste there.

[tony_leith]

Back on topic. I like Dave's characterisation of kyo and jitsu as essentially two sides of the coin. In Shorinji Kempo at least the appearance of kyo is essential to effective defence - we have a range of basic stances whose function is to invite specific attacks, both goho and juho, by presenting ostensible weak points. There are different approaches to juho waza, but one approach which commmends itself to me more as I gain more experience is to almost give the attacker their initial attack rather trying to confront it directly. This actually again applies to both goho and juho waza.

What is dangerous is when kyo is presented not as a strategic/tactical move but just as an inadvertant consequence of poor stance/unnecessary movement etc. One point our branch master made in class recently is that most of us will change stance in randori at will and not for any very readily apparent reason, inevitably presenting kyo. Try not changing stance in randori - it's actually a surprisingly hard discipline (unless of course your Shorinji Kempo is much better than mine, in which case it'll be absurdly easy :D )

Tony Leith

[David Dunn]

A mere bagatelle in comparison to his pre-cons, is this forum really strict then? If so why does Zero get away with no name? God I miss e-budo. :cry:

Not sure about strict Ade. I think Zero has got away with no name because there is not as yet a replacement moderator for Tony.

David N - jitsu/jutsu are two different words :D

[Ade]

Try not changing stance in randori - it's actually a surprisingly hard discipline...

Mate I think that's called standing still (or chi-kun) which is a very different skill.
Experts attain the higher level of "playing possum" by lying down during randoori gasping for breath, wheezing and crying "no more" it's a particularly high level form that I've worked on for years.
Then you wait till your attacker's having a shower after training and nick his clothes...oh sweet revenge!

Ade

[Tripitaka of AA]

Too much Kyo in his Jutsu I guess. Sorry David D, I went a little off-piste there.


I could claim to have made the pun with "Jutsu" intentionally... but of course, it was just an inadvertent slip between brain cells. Thanks for pointing it out David.:)

[Ewok85]

Then you wait till your attacker's having a shower after training and nick his clothes...oh sweet revenge!
:laugh: i nicked his towel too!