View Full Version : Andre the Giant vs. Bruce Lee (is super technique enough against super-size)
Now everyone knows that size and strenght is all you need to win a fight. If you know martial arts, you are most likely to win anyone of any size or stength.
But what if the opponent is nearly 7'5 and weighed over 520 pounds? Hw about someone who can lift cars on it's back with simple ease. What if it is someone like Ander the Giant?
But a unexperianced giant (and pro wrestling back then wasn't that technical) went against fighter designed to beat up people three times his size. Someone who is a martial arts champ. What about someone as super quick as Bruce Lee?
Consider the two. Both have there respected strenghts and weaknesses.
Andre's strength is his huge body which is the size of three large men Or two six foot obese men). And his strenght is off the charts, recording stronger than 12 men combined (he beat 12 men in a tug of war contest) and lift cars to their back with ease. His weakness? He is pretty slow and doesn't know much fighting arts (well if you consider 1970's pro wrestling a martial art then maybe) and he is a large target (especially the throat).
Bruce Lee is a super fast man and is one of the best martial artist ever in modern times and he can kick people's butts twice his size. His skill in fighting was unmatched. And again he is very quick. His weakness? He is pretty small and not even half as strong as weighlifters. His body is also more fragile.
Now if these to met, would the super big strong Andre be able to take out super fast and technical Bruce Lee.
I think Andre would win, cause he is just too big and strong. But if Bruce Lee can keep his distance and avoid big grappling, he can prevail but it would be hard against someone like andre.
Cobra,
First, per forum rules you need to sign with your real full name.
Second, I must be missing the point to this mental exersize as both of your example swere not only beyond exceptional, but were downright freakish in many ways. Further, they are both dead. I guess it may be fun to speculate on the outcome of such an encounter, but not only would it be nothing more than speculation, it would have no meaning to anyone. Few if any are as a fast and adaptive as Bruce Lee was, and NO ONE is the size of Andre the Giant.
You might as well ask who would win in a fight, a Mako shark or a Blue whale.
Not trying to be rude or dismissive... I just dont understand where your coming from here.
Cobra,
First, per forum rules you need to sign with your real full name.
Second, I must be missing the point to this mental exersize as both of your example swere not only beyond exceptional, but were downright freakish in many ways. Further, they are both dead. I guess it may be fun to speculate on the outcome of such an encounter, but not only would it be nothing more than speculation, it would have no meaning to anyone. Few if any are as a fast and adaptive as Bruce Lee was, and NO ONE is the size of Andre the Giant.
You might as well ask who would win in a fight, a Mako shark or a Blue whale.
Not trying to be rude or dismissive... I just dont understand where your coming from here.
I know they are dead, but when they were alive, who would win if they ever fought? Basicly what I am trying to do is generate a discussion between about who would win between super size and super technique. And don't see how that is pointless. Just want to see what people's oponion is.
Josh
The short answer is that it comes down to willpower. Bruce was a fanatic at fighting. Andre was a gentle man who trained so he wouldn't really hurt people. Bruce would win, simply because a fanatic always beats a pacifist.
The short answer is that it comes down to willpower. Bruce was a fanatic at fighting. Andre was a gentle man who trained so he wouldn't really hurt people. Bruce would win, simply because a fanatic always beats a pacifist.
Are you saying that Lee had short man syndrome? lol
The fight could go either way. If Andre actually hit or grabbed Lee that would be the end of the fight. If Lee knocked Andre down that would be the end of the fight. I'ts debatable which would happen first. I can't say.
Cliff Hargrave
06-08-2004, 18:57
Andre would kill Bruce Lee and probably not even break a sweat.
You guys have no idea what someone that big can do. I have a friend that is a Game Warden (I try to overlook that though and forgive him for his career choice). He is 6'9" and weighs 400 lbs. He was an All American college lineman and a knee injury kept him from the NFL. I have seen him rope a ten foot alligator and pull it to his truck with one hand, kneel on it and tape it's mouth shut, and then toss it in the back of the truck like a sack of potatoes. I have seen him pick up 200+ pound men by the front of the jacket with one hand. Someone that big hitting you would be devastating. Not to mention just grabbing you and falling down on top of you. I sure wouldn't want to fight him with a stick, much less empty handed. Heck if I had to shoot him I would want a shotgun slug. And he is 8" shorter and 120 pounds lighter than Andre the giant.
Bruce Lee was a very talented martial artist but he was what, 140 lbs soaking wet on his best day?
Bob Sapp is "only" 350 and he has given some very talented K-1 guys some trouble.
McGrendel
06-08-2004, 20:16
Okay, I have seen biographies on both men and I have respect for both of them. Honestly I would not be suprised if the two of them met that they would be friends. (Somebody correct me if I am wrong but didn't Bruce Lee train Magic Johnson or another famous basketball player who he was friends with and consistently comment on how amazed he was at his reach?) Anyway back to the fanciful route. You can be as big as a house but you will still fall without support. Andrei was cool and Andrei was definately big and strong as an ox but he never looked that fast and suffered from multiple medical problems due to his size. Bruce was very fast and very strong and he knew how to hit and where. He would only need to stay out of reach long enough for the first good lunge andre made, step in, shatter one of his knees with a quick kick letting andre's own weight take care of the rest and that would be that. If Andre got ahold of him the story might be different but I doubt it would happen. In any case I would be all over such a shameless spectacle on pay per view.
Bruce trained Kareem Abdul.
At any event, when it comes to a fight between a rabid wolverine and a bear, I'd put my money on the wolverine every time. I wouldn't want to fight either; but while big guys can do a lot of damage, so can small guys with a fanatical mindset.
Andre would kill Bruce Lee and probably not even break a sweat.
You guys have no idea what someone that big can do. I have a friend that is a Game Warden (I try to overlook that though and forgive him for his career choice). He is 6'9" and weighs 400 lbs. He was an All American college lineman and a knee injury kept him from the NFL. I have seen him rope a ten foot alligator and pull it to his truck with one hand, kneel on it and tape it's mouth shut, and then toss it in the back of the truck like a sack of potatoes. I have seen him pick up 200+ pound men by the front of the jacket with one hand. Someone that big hitting you would be devastating. Not to mention just grabbing you and falling down on top of you. I sure wouldn't want to fight him with a stick, much less empty handed. Heck if I had to shoot him I would want a shotgun slug. And he is 8" shorter and 120 pounds lighter than Andre the giant.
Bruce Lee was a very talented martial artist but he was what, 140 lbs soaking wet on his best day?
Bob Sapp is "only" 350 and he has given some very talented K-1 guys some trouble.
Your right, size does make a big difference. It adds a lot of strenght, especially if you are that big. Andre one time had a tug-of-war match with 13 full grown men and beat them with reletive ease. One time in France, two guys made Andre really ad on purpose and Andre chased them down to their car and before the two men left drove away, he pushed the car completly on it's back with the two men in it. Very strong man. The only animals that could do tip cars over are Rhinos and elephants (and most likely Gorillas).
...I think a big man who has a little bit basic skill would beat bruce lee...but I don't think andre could do that.
WHY?
cause he's just a big sick man...yes he had the power&range,but as much as i have seen the video clips of his wresling "fights" he's not good in any movement he's powerfull but Im pretty much sure that Hugo Gerald(or however his name's spelled)is stronger than andre.what im trying to say is andre was only stronger than the avarage people.And I really don't care how many men he beat turning a wresling mach...If i would become a popular wresler who people really love then I would be able to win against an army too.
everything what Jeff said about the body size&power is right of course but it dosent go for this man i think cause this man was sick he was so big cause he was sick.He had problems wiz basic balance&no matter what wresling fans might say...he has no fighting experience or anything.Just the size&power(If Hugo Gerald would be that big then andre would be a wuss compared to him)
& Bruce was strong I have seen clips were bruce beats up 120kg men who have fighting exp.The thing is I think Andre would just have to get couple bruce's strongest strikes in&it's over...yes&andre is so slow that he would just look at bruce vile he's doing it.
it would be much more interesting to see (for exsample) Bill Goldberg VS C.Norris or Hugo Gerald VS van Damme.
In thouse fight's I would bet my money on da big guy's...
In short I think a healthy man wiz the size of Andre would beat bruce easily a little bit smaller man wiz a little luck&a "normal sized" big man wiz skill
:up:
Mairo Salusaar
...I think a big man who has a little bit basic skill would beat bruce lee...but I don't think andre could do that.
WHY?
cause he's just a big sick man...yes he had the power&range,but as much as i have seen the video clips of his wresling "fights" he's not good in any movement he's powerfull but Im pretty much sure that Hugo Gerald(or however his name's spelled)is stronger than andre.what im trying to say is andre was only stronger than the avarage people.And I really don't care how many men he beat turning a wresling mach...If i would become a popular wresler who people really love then I would be able to win against an army too.
everything what Jeff said about the body size&power is right of course but it dosent go for this man i think cause this man was sick he was so big cause he was sick.He had problems wiz basic balance&no matter what wresling fans might say...he has no fighting experience or anything.Just the size&power(If Hugo Gerald would be that big then andre would be a wuss compared to him)
& Bruce was strong I have seen clips were bruce beats up 120kg men who have fighting exp.The thing is I think Andre would just have to get couple bruce's strongest strikes in&it's over...yes&andre is so slow that he would just look at bruce vile he's doing it.
it would be much more interesting to see (for exsample) Bill Goldberg VS C.Norris or Hugo Gerald VS van Damme.
In thouse fight's I would bet my money on da big guy's...
In short I think a healthy man wiz the size of Andre would beat bruce easily a little bit smaller man wiz a little luck&a "normal sized" big man wiz skill
:up:
Mairo Salusaar
Andre actually only developed those health problems such as a bad back ect. toward the last 10 years of his life.
I would have to go with bruce lee bcause hes a lot faster.
black-gi
06-09-2004, 15:30
I say Bruce because Andre was sooooo emobile that bruce would have danced circles around him. as far as the fighting aspect. A "hogan" style leg drop is not the same as a eye gouge ( if Bruce could get that high) or groin kick. As far as the Bob Sapp thing goes you have to remember that those are rules favoring the bigger guy IE punch and kick only. Again this is just my personal opinion. HOWEVER I think if Andre got a hold of him he would squeeze his melon until it popped like a cherry tomatto. I understand these are extreme opposites and they both have passed on, but it is still fun to offer views.
Jason Bryant
Okay, here's the thing. I'm no shrimp, at 5'10 and 250 lbs; but I've had my butt handed to me by several women who were under 5'3 and 105 lbs. In some of those cases, I've seen those same women take apart men who were over 300 lbs of muscle and 6'4 or taller.
NEVER underestimate someone based on size. You *will* get your butt neatly removed and returned to you on a silver platter.
McGrendel
06-09-2004, 19:49
How do you really feel Chris? :D
So, if you think only size matters... tell you what. Let me lock you in a cage with a starving, rabid wolverine, which weighs in at about 35 lbs. You should weigh many times that amount. We'll tie a piece of steak to your neck, and let you two fight, barehanded. If you happen to survive, I'll gladly buy you a steak dinner.
What, you're not willing to take that risk? I don't blame you; no sane person wants to fight an enraged wolverine. They might be small, but they're deadly. You're certainly smart enough to know that size isn't everything in a fight-- skill and ferocity count for an awful lot. And Bruce Lee, according to everyone who knew him, was not just skilled but ferocious.
Cliff Hargrave
06-09-2004, 21:53
Comparing Bruce Lee to a wolverine is silly. How about a 500 lbs wolverine vrs a 140 pound wolverine. Now it's a good comparison.
To the 250 lbs guy that gets his "butt" handed to him by a 105 lbs woman, in what? Point sparring? If she can do that in a real fight then I suggest you quit you current school and find one that will teach you how to fight.
How do you think I *found* my current school?
Hell, why do you think I started studying martial arts? It wasn't because I couldn't beat off people on my own.
Look, do you think you can handle a guy much larger than yourself? Does all your training and abilities suddenly vanish, and you're completely helpless, just because the guy's bigger than you? Is there something magical about being large that means you can't use any defensive technique, or completely renders every attack you know useless?
I honestly want to know. I'm decent-sized, and if it's true, then I don't need to worry about this sort of thing ever again. Why should I bother training, if smaller people than myself are automatically helpless, and larger people will crush me no matter what I do?
thebigj8
06-09-2004, 23:08
Bruce. Andre was no wolverine.
So, if you think only size matters... tell you what. Let me lock you in a cage with a starving, rabid wolverine, which weighs in at about 35 lbs. You should weigh many times that amount. We'll tie a piece of steak to your neck, and let you two fight, barehanded. If you happen to survive, I'll gladly buy you a steak dinner.
What, you're not willing to take that risk? I don't blame you; no sane person wants to fight an enraged wolverine. They might be small, but they're deadly. You're certainly smart enough to know that size isn't everything in a fight-- skill and ferocity count for an awful lot. And Bruce Lee, according to everyone who knew him, was not just skilled but ferocious.
Actually, a human being can easily take down a wolverine, but with a lot of injuries. The reason why wolverines are so scary is because they are fearless. They have even been known to chase bears away and steal the bears meat. Doesn't mean a wolverine can beat a bear up? Know, but anyone can scare people, but not really be that tough..
Cliff Hargrave
06-10-2004, 09:51
How do you think I *found* my current school?
Hell, why do you think I started studying martial arts? It wasn't because I couldn't beat off people on my own.
Look, do you think you can handle a guy much larger than yourself? Does all your training and abilities suddenly vanish, and you're completely helpless, just because the guy's bigger than you? Is there something magical about being large that means you can't use any defensive technique, or completely renders every attack you know useless?
I honestly want to know. I'm decent-sized, and if it's true, then I don't need to worry about this sort of thing ever again. Why should I bother training, if smaller people than myself are automatically helpless, and larger people will crush me no matter what I do?
You are missing the point. The original post was about a huge freak of nature. 500+ pounds of human that wrestles for a living, fighting a little 140 person. World of difference between that and just fighting bigger people. I assume the original question was about the two squaring off and fighting, not Bruce ambushing Andre with any surprise attack.
Then the comment about a 250 lbs man and a 105 lbs woman that both train in martial arts. Tell me how a woman that small can beat a man without a weapon or maybe a surprise, extremely lucky eye gouge? We are talking about a real fight here, where the man wants to really hurt or kill her.
All the top women self defense trainers emphasis launching specific surprise attacks + escape techniques, because that has been found to be the best response in real life situations. They have found that even well trained females simply cannot match males in strength and the ability to absorb punishment. I have dealt with too many female victims of violence and have seen first hand the results.
I think a recent K-1 match is relevant.
In the Team Japan Vs Team World K-1 burning match between Montahna Silva and Yasuke Fujimoto. Fujimoto was 47cm shorter than the huge 225cm Silva. Silva had no style and had never won a fight and constantly lunged at Fujimoto. Fujimoto had emense speed and style and experience but didnt have the reach to land an effective punch. Silva landed a couple of bear claws and knocked him down. Both of them study karate.
In conclusion the its simple, no matter the skill, if you can't reach your opponent and land an effective and powerfull strike then theres no chance
McGrendel
06-10-2004, 11:57
[QUOTE=Cliff Hargrave]They have found that even well trained females simply cannot match males in strength and the ability to absorb punishment.QUOTE]
Not going to touch that one. I am 6'3, my wife is barely 5', I weigh about twice as much as she does and I train every day. You could still not pay me enough money to even consider ticking her off. :)
Cliff, I see where you are coming from especially in your line of work from what you witness probably on a daily basis. I have just seen women who are trained (who I admit are in the minority for the gender due to social constraints most are raised with from birth) take on men three times their size who are also trained and own them. It all depends on genetics, commitment, training, and sheer force of will. I would tend to be more wary of a female opponent on the mat. If she is there then it generally means she wants to be there, which means she has something to prove, which also probably means she has put in more time and energy in her training than most of the guys. I have actually read that in dealing with terrorists many international security opperatives are instructed to take out female terrorists first due to the fact that to rise through the ranks of mostly male dominated groups they had to be much more commited and ruthless than the males. If you want to go with group statistics overall then yes guys are usually bigger and stronger, but the same stats say that women overall are smarter and faster. It all depends on the individual.
Freaks of nature are even easier to fight, you're wary but not afraid.
Then the comment about a 250 lbs man and a 105 lbs woman that both train in martial arts. Tell me how a woman that small can beat a man without a weapon or maybe a surprise, extremely lucky eye gouge? We are talking about a real fight here, where the man wants to really hurt or kill her.
Well, the first time was surprise. (I snuck up on my friend to surprise her. She surprised me with a judo throw. I ended up doing a face-plant halfway across the room.) The second time was overconfidence. We were in a full-contact bout, and I thought my size would be enough. I was very wrong. The third time was in a demo, and I got cocky again, and got flattened for my efforts. The fifth time, I was doing a bout against an instructor, who simply outclassed me in every way. The sixth and subsequent times, I was phobic, and choked (and was occasionally against an instructor with superior skills in the full-contact bouts).
For the record, the bouts I'm referring to are unofficial, full-contact with pads, fight to surrender or injury matches. No ref, no points.
Small women can easily dismantle a much larger man, particularily if he's overconfident due to size. Because I was overconfident, I ended up in a lot of pain. Someone Andre's size will become overconfident readily, thinking that the huge difference makes him invulnerable. It doesn't, and that attitude can be one's downfall.
My jujutsu instructor was Andre's body guard. He tells a story of people challenging Andre in bars. One time, this guy who was about 6'5" and 250lbs challenged Andre. Andre was sitting at the table with his back to the guy. Andre told him he didn't want to fight. The guy challenged him again. Andre didn't want to fight. The guy cracked Andre in the back of his head (remember that Andre was still sitting with his back to the guy) as hard as he could. Andre swatted the guy like a fly, with the back of his hand, without getting up. The guy flew through the bar window, breaking it and winding up on the street.
As good as Bruce was, I don't think he could hurt Andre. He would need to work Andre for a long time before doing any damage and the longer he engaged, the more chances that he would have made a mistake and that Andre would have been able to land a punch. One mistake would be fatal. The odds would be against Bruce.
The thing about size is that size matters. Skills can compensate for size to a certain degree. However, the greater the size difference, the more of a skill difference there has to be to compensate. With skills being equal, the larger man will prevail (most likely).
I completely agree with Cliff. Anyone who thinks that a 105lb woman can go toe to toe with a 200 or 250lb man is out of their mind. The best you can hope for is to strike to escape. There's no winning in that scenario.
McGrendel
06-10-2004, 16:39
I completely agree with Cliff. Anyone who thinks that a 105lb woman can go toe to toe with a 200 or 250lb man is out of their mind. The best you can hope for is to strike to escape. There's no winning in that scenario.
Consider me out of my mind. I have seen just that scenario several times. You guys must hang out with daintier women than I do. Just out of curiosity what's the ratio of women/men at your schools and how many have you sparred?
Cliff Hargrave
06-10-2004, 19:02
Well I guess we will all have to just disagree then.
McGrendel
06-10-2004, 19:11
Lol, think of how boring life would be if we all agreed on everything? Good points all around though.
Let me give you something to think about, Cliff-- you don't have to give me an answer.
As I understand it, you work as either a policeman or other LEO. Would you, in the course of your duty, want to fight a small woman who was likely on drugs, appeared to be in good condition, and thought you were going to hurt her children if she didn't kill you? Would you want to fight her yourself, or would you want to call for backup?
Cliff Hargrave
06-10-2004, 20:48
Let me give you something to think about, Cliff-- you don't have to give me an answer.
As I understand it, you work as either a policeman or other LEO. Would you, in the course of your duty, want to fight a small woman who was likely on drugs, appeared to be in good condition, and thought you were going to hurt her children if she didn't kill you? Would you want to fight her yourself, or would you want to call for backup?
Yes I am a police officer.
Kind of a silly question. I don't "want" to fight anyone, especially by myself, but I have. I have fought women too. Big ones, small ones, on drugs, beer, and stone cold sober. One of the things I had to get over as a young officer was the pre-conditioning of not hitting or hurting women. It just takes a few encounters to get over that though.
I am sure the woman in your hypothetical situation would be fierce and very committed. She is still going to lose though.
Which leads us to the next question. As an experienced police officer, would you let a very large, but totally green, trainee try and take this hypothetical woman down alone?
Cliff Hargrave
06-10-2004, 22:57
You are really reaching now.
We don't take ANY aggressive person down alone unless you have no choice. You always go for back-up. There is not a situation of me "letting" someone do it. If they did it alone it was because the situation didn't allow time for back-up to arrive.
Keep making your senarios up, it still will not convince me a trained 105 lbs woman can beat up a trained 250 lbs man in a REAL fight.
Andre the giant would KILL Bruce Lee!
and so would almost every current UFC, Pride, and K-1 fighter.
So, in other words, you don't believe that large guys can be overconfident? That being bigger means you'll always win, regardless of training?
Not much point in training, is there?
Gunyo Kogusoku
06-10-2004, 23:44
I just can't believe you guys are getting into a heated argument over a couple of fighters, who are both dead. What relevance does this have?
How about Hulk Vs. Superman? Sabertooth Vs. Wolverine anyone?
:rolleyes:
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 00:05
So, in other words, you don't believe that large guys can be overconfident? That being bigger means you'll always win, regardless of training?
Tony you are really putting more effort into this than you need to, and you are stretching my words beyond their original intent. I have been talking about EXTREME differences in size, weight, and strength, not just someone being "bigger".
Not much point in training, is there?
You know that isn't what I meant and you are just being argumentative. I am almost positive I posted before that we should just disagree. There is no way you will convince me any different so why not move on to another thread.
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 00:08
I just can't believe you guys are getting into a heated argument over a couple of fighters, who are both dead. What relevance does this have?
How about Hulk Vs. Superman? Sabertooth Vs. Wolverine anyone?
:rolleyes:
I can't believe it either.
Tony you are really putting more effort into this than you need to, and you are stretching my words beyond their original intent. I have been talking about EXTREME differences in size, weight, and strength, not just someone being "bigger".
Okay then, let me put it this way:
Do you think you're completely invincible against someone who's much smaller than you? There's zero chance they could hurt you in the slightest?
Do you think you could defeat someone who's much larger than you? Do you think you'd be completely helpless?
Consider me out of my mind. I have seen just that scenario several times. You guys must hang out with daintier women than I do. Just out of curiosity what's the ratio of women/men at your schools and how many have you sparred?
Sparring and fighting are two different things.
Re: training, you need to train to narrow the gap between sizes and to give you a fighting chance. Training will not make you a superman. It gives you a fighting chance against a bigger, untrained opponent. The bigger the opponent, the better your training has to be. If you're fighting a bigger trained opponent, your odds of success are not very good.
Listen to Cliff. He knows what he's talking about.
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 00:18
Okay then, let me put it this way:
Do you think you're completely invincible against someone who's much smaller than you? There's zero chance they could hurt you in the slightest?
Do you think you could defeat someone who's much larger than you? Do you think you'd be completely helpless?
What is your problem?
I have a feeling we're talking to a kid.
What is your problem?
I just want an answer. Do you really think extreme size will always trump skill? Do you, personally, think you'd be helpless against someone who's that much bigger? Do you, personally, think you're invincible agaist someone who's that much smaller?
I think you'll discover I'm not being nearly as agressive about this. You seem to be getting quite hot under the collar when all I'm doing is asking questions.
I may not have your experience, but I have enough to know that no one is ever invincible, regardless of the situation. You seem to be saying differently. I would like you to explain this.
...ok let me try to take this all togheter.
*Tony say's fighters who are small can beat fighters who are big(yes that is 100%right)
*Cliff say's fighters who are small CAN NOT beat fighters who are FREAKISH big.(yes that is 100%right)
*Cliff say's fighters who are women can't beat fighters who are men+twice the size.
*Tony say's women can beat men.
-Max:Yes,both person do make a point in this.First i thought that Bruce would beat Andre cause Andre was a sick man,but then i found out that Andre was totaly ok when he was younger.That makes me over think the situation and i think big size is a really BIG bonus.We will never find out how this fight would have really went,but Andre would have a really big advantage.&big men always win in such situations(yes there are exeptions&maybe Bruce Lee was one...)
-About small women VS big men.One thing is the skill if the big man is retarded and the woman is a skilled fighter then it will be a easy victory for the female,but when both of the persons have martial arts exp.&one of em is just way biger&has way more power then the difference of skill has to be really I mean REALLY big for the female to win.
Why I think so?
1)Women are not as powerfull as men
2)When they both know how to fight&one of them has so much more range&power&can take in way more damage...
3)If you get in a hit by a so much bigger&more powerfull person then blocking dosen't make a difference[example:I weight 85kg&im 186cm tall I would axe-kick a 10year old boy(or when Im afraid i will miss this Id 360spin round house him in the mid section)...] Do you get what im trying to say?
If you fight against different women who beat you up like a little dog then you should check for mistakes in you'r selfe not just say they are so much better than me.I have gotten kiced butt by women too,but not cause Im not a better fighter only cause I couldn't bring my self to hit a female wiz real strenght.Of course there are women who are better fighters than men.For exsample stevens segal had a wife&she was a way better fighter than steve...
-About police men...police units always take on a criminal wiz as much men as possible.It's cause they want to guarantee theyr safety&the safety of the criminal.Police men are not trained to beat the criminal to death.( :up: maybe only in China,but not in europe or as far as i know in the U.S.A).In Japan police men are the only persons who are allowed to carry guns.They are trained in variouse martial arts...but still they "attack"the criminals wiz a team.It's cause they want to show that they are so much superior& any resistance is pointless.
I hope I expressed my ideas the right way and you were able to understand my thoughts and ideas on this. :bow:
wiz all respect Mairo Salusaar
I just can't believe you guys are getting into a heated argument over a couple of fighters, who are both dead. What relevance does this have?
How about Hulk Vs. Superman? Sabertooth Vs. Wolverine anyone?
:rolleyes:
Wolverine would wipe the floor with sabertooth. :D And that's serious!
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 09:18
I just want an answer. Do you really think extreme size will always trump skill? Do you, personally, think you'd be helpless against someone who's that much bigger? Do you, personally, think you're invincible agaist someone who's that much smaller?
I think you'll discover I'm not being nearly as agressive about this. You seem to be getting quite hot under the collar when all I'm doing is asking questions.
I may not have your experience, but I have enough to know that no one is ever invincible, regardless of the situation. You seem to be saying differently. I would like you to explain this.
It's all about the odds.
If Bruce could beat Andre, how often could he do it? 1 out of 100, 1 out of 10? Same with the 105 lbs woman vrs the 250 pound man, and we are talking about two "trained" persons as in your original post, not female NHB fighter vrs. a 250 lbs fat couch potato.
No one said anything about being invincible or helpless so quit stretching this. You are trying to draw me into making absolute statements and I am not going to fall for it. There is never an "always" in fighting, only probabilities. There is a chance for the extremly smaller fighters to win against extremly larger fighters, but those are considered flukes and you shouldn't rely on flukes in your training. Why do you think there are weight divisions in every single combat oriented sport?
I am a realist.
Women vs Men-- yes, women can beat men, even when there's a huge size difference. You forget to factor in the overconfidence factor, which can even things up in a hurry. A large guy who struts is, thinking: "There's no way she can lay a finger on me!", is going to get hurt by a skilled woman. This is true *despite* the guy's level of training.
We've all heard of "skinny guy syndrome" where smaller people are often deadlier, because they won;t give up. This does happen in real life.
Cliff-- Something I've heard from a lot of cops is that while men might be larger, women tend to do more damage in a dispute, because they're more willing to use something other than their bare hands. I can personally testify that when I've had to really fight against a woman-- real self defense, against women who weren't absolutely tiny, but who I generally did outmass by a good weight category or more-- I ended up dodging things like frying pans, coffee mugs, and well-aimed TV sets. Is this as true as I've been led to believe?
tkdcanada
06-11-2004, 14:32
Okay, I've been sitting back and listening to all this talk about if a woman could or could not beat a man in self-defense. I'm with Cliff. The odds are against her. Weight and power are two huge factors. I'm a 150 lb solid woman and I don't even think I could (and I'm considered to be quite physically tough by my friends and family). I think a woman's best chance is using her head and having luck on her side to get a lucky shot in just the right place. But as Cliff said, it would be a fluke. My husband's 195 lbs and I can't even bend his wrist with my two hands, full force and that's just fooling around. Imagine if he had adrenaline rushing through him! You have to be realistic, we are made differently.
As far as being more ready to use things like frying pans, etc...yeah, speaking for myself, I guess I would in an extreme situation (although I've never been put in that position) but I think that's partly due to a woman realizing her lack of physical equality with a man.
My conclusion - a woman could probably successfully defend herself against a larger stronger man BUT she would have to use absolutely everything at her disposal, have a few lucky opportunities for well placed shots and she would likely not be able to do any real damage (unless it's lucky like knocking him out or something), just slow him down so she could get away. Just my opinion as a woman.
First I'm a Bruce Lee and Andre fan. If they met I'm convinced they would be friends. However, there are people who knew Andre who attested to his strength. At the end of his career when Andre let Hulk Hogan beat him, Hogan was worried that Andre would change his mind. Andre knew he was very sick and needed to retire. He kept his word. But as sick as he was, the steroid induced Hogan was WORRIED according to Arnold Scoland- Andre's friend and coach. The fact is if Andre got mad and really hit someone, even someone as big as Hogan, he would SERIOUSLY INJURE THEM. Wrestling was and is showbiz and Andre was careful. In his prime, Andre may not have a speedster, but he wasn't the clumsy slow oaf either. He was playing it out for the crowds. If Lee came close enough to hit, I believe Andre could grab him on one of the attacks. Then it would truly be a one hit kill.
Peace
Dennis
Posiview
06-11-2004, 17:52
Bruce COULD beat Andre (a good front kick by Bruce to Andre's groin with followed up action, if needed) and Andre COULD beat Bruce (if Andre was able to get Bruce in a bear hug).
As far as I'm concerned a question was asked and people gave their opinion. Hypotheticals, although useful as a tool to generate discussion, have to be reasonable and have some possibility of occuring.
My answer would be Andre to win.
With regards men vs women, I've trained with my partner who is lighter than me and about 5" 2' tall (I'm 5" 8'); she usually wins!!
Ron Rompen
06-13-2004, 21:28
Sorry Andy, but I disagree with the technique. I have been kicked in the groin a few times (probably explains my outlook on life, but oh well) and although it was DAMM painful later (to the point of projectile vomiting) at the time it happened I was able to continue standing and at least LOOK like I was still in the fight.
If I were ever up against someone of Andre's size (gods forbid) and I couldn't run, then ONLY chance I can see having is to take out his knees. Once he's down, then I can WALK away, instead of running.
My first sensei was somewhat like Andre...a big hulk of a man, immensely strong, extremely talented (Hap Ki Do), and very dedicated to his art. The only way I could -=EVER=- spar with him was to 'cheat' and go for knees, ankles, etc. The few times he hit me (with control, fortunately) he knocked me across the room. If he had been trying for real, he could have probably punched a hole right through me.
Tripitaka of AA
06-14-2004, 07:44
So far I haven't seen much comparison with Bruce's "Game of Death" on-screen battle with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Would we discount this as cinematic nonsense and irrelevant to this serious(!) current thread? Which techniques does the Screen Bruce do that would work in a real contest against a freakishly tall fellow? Would Jackie Chan's efforts in "City Hunter" be any more use? (He fights a pair of 7-footers in a cinema, while "Game of Death" is being shown on the screen behind).
Perhaps Jeff will come and put us out of our misery. ;)
black-gi
06-14-2004, 12:42
If size and stength is what matters most, then I would not have gotten into Martial arts in the first place, I would be a body builder. I don't and never will by that size makes the difference, it has been proven time and time again that size and strength help but is not the deciding factor......
Jason Bryant
Neck snapping and/or throat chopping. Good fight and good night.
-Fitz
Did anyone see the fight (i think it was in UFC) between the kung fu guy (yes kung fu) who was 5'9" and the sumo wrestler who was 6'8" and weighed almost 400 pounds. Well the kung fu guy won, by tiger striking him on the nose, the sumo wrestler just collapsed.
Although that doesn't really prove a great deal, I still thought it was pretty cool when it happend.
Forget Bruce Lee for the minute, I wonder how the hell a proven great fighter like Royce Gracie would deal with Andre. How the hell would he take him to the ground, it would be impossible, wouldn't it? I don't think you could out grapple someone that big.
Someone like Silva would just keep kicking his legs, but might not be fast enough to avoid being hit. I think you'd just have to go for the knees.
There is a 7'+ Guy in UFC who doesn't do very well, but then he is skinny.
Could anyone answer me my question though, how would Royce Gracie deal with Andre?
Could anyone answer me my question though, how would Royce Gracie deal with Andre?
I think Royce would have to buy Andre many drinks. Get him drunk and then shoot him. :laugh:
Fitz, Mad Max-
remember the forum rule that obligues everyone to sign all posts with real, full name (first and last), or have nic -handle- that contains the full name. If you don't want to type it every time, you can add it to your signature block.
Riku Ylönen
I think Royce would have to buy Andre many drinks. Get him drunk and then shoot him. :laugh:
It would take a lot of drinks to get Andre drunk. I remeber on an interview with the giant, he said ti takes him one liter of vodka to even feel a chill :eek:. I'm sure Andre would figure out the plan before he felt the chill.
I never said it was going to be cheap! :D
lightninrod
06-17-2004, 21:36
Bruce would trick Andre into coming at him really hard one time, step out to face Andre's centerline, and kick him in the nads so hard that they would never drop out again. The winner: Bruce!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just my version of things.
Justin Mears
Andre was on so many sterroids, he didn't have nads! :laugh:
Andre was on so many sterroids, he didn't have nads! :laugh:
If he did, he most probably couldn't see them anyway! :laugh:
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