Man vs. Beast

[Cobra]

Martial Arts maybe effective against people who want to fight you, but what about crazy beasts who want to kill you in the wild. Sure you can have a gun but what happens if you loose it, and you are in the middle of a forest or jungle.

It is imposable for a human to beat up lions, tiger, and bears (oh my) with their bare body because they are too big and strong, but what about large wolves, cougars, or leapords. Sure thay got big teeth or claws, but an average man is several times more stronger than any of them. Not to mention more flexible. As long as your are quick enough to avoid the mouth or claws and get around and wrestle the beast to the ground and do a armbar or something and break the ****ers leg (which will break easier than a human) crippling the beast and then kick in the head really hard a few times and it should do the trick. Isn't the whole point of martial arts to fight with no weapons? Or you can punch or kick or squeeze the throat causing instant death to any beast. I think that it can be done.

I have a huge 180 pound Great Dane and I'm am so used to wrestling with him when even he is at full strenght (and I mean biting at full force) that i have no fear of dogs of any size cause I am so used to getting bit. This is where I got the idea humans don't need weapons to beat beasts around the same weight (or little bigger) than us if you train at it.

Of course many people could use the exuse that my great dane wasn't trying. Maybe he wasn't, but I am sure I can dominate him if things did get out of hand.

What do you guys think. Also, is there any martial arts (like kung fu which is movements from animals) that deals solley with fighting animals like big wolvesand dogs or big cats (with the exeption of lions and tigers of coarse).

[DoKwang]

I think animal rights would shut that down straight away if a school like that existed.
Theres a huge difference between play fighting a dog and fighting a wild animal.
Why dont you grab the dogs nuts then see how strong and vicous a p****d off animal can be.

[Ice-cut]

...I can't belive you are seriouse.To beat up a dog isn't really hard or is it all a dog can do to you is bite you &this won't kill you when you get bite only couple of times I have seen a young mother protecting her child from a doberman&she did a really good job doing it....but then again some time ago i read a article about a man in germany who got really badly injured by a dog when he tryed to protect a child(his arm was cut off later)...I think it's only the matter of how you do it.A dog is just a stupid animal(yes i like dogs but the sad thruth is most of em are stupid).Fight against a bear or a tiger or something like that... :up: (you MUST be kidding)
But if there would come a fight like that then a human who has some good martial arts training would win.(long time ago chinese monks used martial arts to protect them selfes against animals&it worked)
I think it's kind of funny to think about classes were people teach people to fight against animals... :laugh:

Were do you get thouse ideas anyway Cobra?


Mairo Salusaar

[Ewok85]

I remember reading that Lions are not too much of a problem, and can be 'scared' away, but not always.

Tigers on the other hand..... :eek:

[Cliff Hargrave]

Big cats bite you and hold on and then rip you to shreds with their claws. I can't think of any way to defend against that.

[bifcake]

Big cats bite you and hold on and then rip you to shreds with their claws. I can't think of any way to defend against that.


You got to use your tai-sabakis. :laugh:

[Musubi Dojo]

I remember reading that Lions are not too much of a problem, and can be 'scared' away, but not always.

Tigers on the other hand..... :eek:

Ever see the movie "The Ghost & the Darkness"? :)

Scary stuff.

[Cobra]

I don't mean lions and tigers. They are much too big. I'm talking about maybe smaller big cats like cougars or leapords. And not suprise pounces by the cats either.

Cats however do pose a big threat besides their bite, it's their claws. But dogs you only have to worry about their teeth. So how about wolves. Think this, on humans you go to worry about hands, feet, elbows, knees, ect. While on a wolf or dog you only have to worry about their mouth.

I've also heard of fighters in China who have expertise in fighting tigers. I've heard that they jump on the tigers back and start punching away at the skull. A boxer's punch is very high, I've heard they could reach 2,000 pounds of pressure. So I'm sure a little less is needed to break the skull of a tiger (without the boxing gloves on).

Now I'm not to sure about that story, but I'm sure man can take on animals atleast under 200 pounds if they no the risks and weakpoints of the beasts.

Check out this link (the bull is out cold);
http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~aoki/Kickboxing/oyama/Oyama_bull.jpg

[muaythaifreak]

but what about large wolves, cougars, or leapords. Sure thay got big teeth or claws, but an average man is several times more stronger than any of them. Not to mention more flexible. As long as your are quick enough to avoid the mouth or claws and get around and wrestle the beast to the ground and do a armbar or something and break the ****ers leg (which will break easier than a human) crippling the beast and then kick in the head really hard a few times and it should do the trick. Isn't the whole point of martial arts to fight with no weapons? Or you can punch or kick or squeeze the throat causing instant death to any beast. I think that it can be done.

I have a huge 180 pound Great Dane and I'm am so used to wrestling with him when even he is at full strenght (and I mean biting at full force) that i have no fear of dogs of any size cause I am so used to getting bit. This is where I got the idea humans don't need weapons to beat beasts around the same weight (or little bigger) than us if you train at it.

Of course many people could use the exuse that my great dane wasn't trying. Maybe he wasn't, but I am sure I can dominate him if things did get out of hand.

What do you guys think. Also, is there any martial arts (like kung fu which is movements from animals) that deals solley with fighting animals like big wolvesand dogs or big cats (with the exeption of lions and tigers of coarse).

I think you are a bit disalusioned to just how strong your dog is and can be. Not to mention that of the "smaller" cats you mentioned. Animals are inherently stronger than humans, particularly the predator types you're talking about. Look at the bite strength that a guard dog has. And the endurance that all canines possess. Animals are physically superior to us in every way. They are stronger, faster, and are born with far more natural weapons than we are. If your dog wanted to kill you, and you had no weapon to use to stop him, you would die. Training or no training. You are completely wrong about men being several times stronger than dogs, cats or any other animal of equal body mass. Take a Chimpanzee, obviously much smaller than humans, however if I remember correctly, the average adult male chimp is ten to twelve times stronger than a man. And they weigh significantly less. You may be able to hurt the animal, however I'm sure that in the end, even if you killed it, you'd either die, or you would spend a great deal of time and money recovering from your injuries. Even a small dog,(compared to a Great Dane.), such as a Belgian Malinois can break your arm simply by biting you if he wants to. Put on a bite suit and let a police K-9 tackle you if you doubt the strength of a dog. And your talking here about a dog that weighs 80 or 90lbs at best.

[nosh276]

I agree, humans are very weak. Even body buiilders. The average human is able to lift around their own body weight. Compare that to even an ant and we're pathetic. An ant can lift either 12 or 20 times their weight. It's a disproportioned example, but it gets my point across. Humans, in comparison to other animals, are physically much weaker. That's why we developed weapons and fighting systems. That's why, in ancient times, people hunted in large groups and all of them with weapons.

[muaythaifreak]

As far as people killing bulls and tigers with their bare hands... well forgive my synicism, but I'd have to see it to believe it. I've seen the clips of Mas Oyama chopping horns off bulls with his bare hands and dealing them leathal blows with his fists, but then again, I watched David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear as well. And I know for a fact that it was illusion, or "fake" if you will. I just have a hard time believing a man can punch a bull in the forehead and kill it. I'd have to inspect the bull before, and after without it ever having left my sight in the interim to become a believer. Anything can be faked if there's enough money, power, and fame involved. By the way, no offense to any Kyokushin people here, the art itself is a valid art, I just don't believe everything I read about everyone I read about. :bow:

[Cobra]

You guys underestimate your own species a lot. Humans are much stronger than you think. Great apes (including humans) are much stronger than animals around the same strenght, but lack the strong claws of such predators.

Believe it or not, a human's leg is much more stronger and powerful than Leapords, Cougars, or Jaguar's anything (legs swipes, jaw strenght). And did you know a boxer's punch can be stronger than tiger or lion bite? It is true. The difference is that we don't have sharp claws or teeth. But it would still do pretty bad damage.

Did you also know a human's bite force is around the same as a cougars. Humans is between 200-300 and cougars is between 300-350. Very close bite pressues. I honestly don't think we would be totally helpless if attacked by a wild animal.

[De_Franza]

How about an Ocelot?

[De_Franza]

Don't forget canine psychology... your Dane thinks of you as Alpha Male (assuming you've trained it correctly, which I do) so it won't try to kill you, though it does enjoy wrestling with you. And if it's neutered, it's got some of the mean permanently taken out of it too.
I think if an Ocelot got you in it's guard, it would make you tap out in about 14 seconds.

[De_Franza]

I mean, clearly, I could take a Lynx, but I'd have to be in peak condition to handle the nimble Panther.

[Cliff Hargrave]

But the real question is how would Bruce Lee do against a pack of roving lions?

[Cliff Hargrave]

I mean, clearly, I could take a Lynx, but I'd have to be in peak condition to handle the nimble Panther.

Panthers are suckers for the uchimata - jujigatame combo.

[gzepeda]

To quote a source:

"1. Ninjas are mammals.

2. Ninjas fight ALL the time.

3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people"

This would indicate to me that all of the animals you are discussing are already ninjas, and would just totally shred you guys.

[Don Davies]

This clip shows a man fighting a bear. You must be registered to view the clip.
http://www.subfighter.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetails&lid=36&ttitle=Bear_Fight

[Ron Rompen]

Cobra:

You've made several claims about punching strength, bone strength (in transverse shear loading no less) bite strength, etc.

Please cite your sources. Note that 'National Enquirer' and other such sources are not normally acceptable as legitimate research tools.

You may have a 180lb Great Dane (really? are you sure it's not a pony with a haircut?) that you can beat with ease, but I'd happily pit you, or anyone else here, against my 7.5 lbs Pug/Russel cross. He's like a biker on PCP....just keeps going and going and going...........my money is on him every time.

[Posiview]

Cobra, a wild 180 pound Great Dane would rip you to pieces - NO doubt at all! :dead:

I used to have a domesticated cat that was a bit 'mental' and when it flipped I was out a there. When I was too slow I was in big trouble - bitten to the bone!!

Don't forget canine psychology... your Dane thinks of you as Alpha Male
You got it! :wink2:

That tells me only a fool would try to fight an animal or some one with serious "issues"
Well put! :bow:

I remember reading that Lions are not too much of a problem, and can be 'scared' away, but not always.
It's the "not always" that worries me :D :D

[Cobra]

Cobra, a wild 180 pound Great Dane would rip you to pieces - NO doubt at all! :dead:

I used to have a domesticated cat that was a bit 'mental' and when it flipped I was out a there. When I was too slow I was in big trouble - bitten to the bone!!

You got it! :wink2:

Well put! :bow:

It's the "not always" that worries me :D :D

I think you lack info on animal strenghts and weaknesses. Trust me, I am an expert on predatory techniques and tatics. And there have been many stories o men fighting off cougars and jaguars, as well as failures to do so.

Keep in mind that fighting animals is different in fighting humans. It is all in the mind. If you tell yourslef you can't defend yourself cause you don't have sharp teeth then you are done for. If you are more positive as well as not too cocky, then you can and people have.

[muaythaifreak]

I'd really like to know where your information came from on the bite force of a cougar. The average domestic dog is like 600 to 1000 psi. And they don't have to kill game with their jaws. I think you've recieved some misinformation. Not to mention my Senegal parrot has like 1500 psi or more.
One question, if my legs are so much stronger than a large cat of equal body mass, why is my vertical leap only ten to twelve inches? I mean a cougar can jump several feet vertically. Even my pet cat has a vertical leap of at least six or seven feet and he's only nine inches high at the shoulder. Yet he can leap from the floor to the top of my refridgerator and does so with apparent ease. If your information is correct, I wasted 500.00 on a ladder to clean my gutters when all this time, I could easily jump to my roof. Think about it, my cat can leap seven to eight times his own height. Granted, with increased weight that would probably decline exponentially, but come on. Speaking of discovery channel, I saw a documentary on lions and a gazzelle jumped over a thicket behind which a lion was hiding in ambush. As the gazzelle passed over head at probably better than ten feet, the lion jumped up and caught it in mid air. The lions entire body was at least five feet off the ground. And the lion is the second heaviest of the big cats. Leopards regularly drag 100+ pound prey into the trees so other predators cannot steal their quarry. And it does not seem to be too much trouble for them. You know anyone who can scale a tree with 100 lbs dangling from their jaws? Particularly someone who weighs the approximate equal of a leopard? The leopard averages between five and eight feet in length and weighs from 60 to 210 pounds in the wild. That's pretty close to human body mass.

btw: Leopards, cougars and jaguars are classified as the same species differentiated by geographic location, therefore their bites should have relatively equal force. refer to the part about 100 lbs dangling from their jaws as they scale a tree.

[muaythaifreak]

I think you lack info on animal strenghts and weaknesses. Trust me, I am an expert on predatory techniques and tatics. And there have been many stories o men fighting off cougars and jaguars, as well as failures to do so.

Keep in mind that fighting animals is different in fighting humans. It is all in the mind. If you tell yourslef you can't defend yourself cause you don't have sharp teeth then you are done for. If you are more positive as well as not too cocky, then you can and people have.

Most if not all documented cases of people surviving animal attacks end in the animal running away. Not because it got it's butt kicked. Wild animals have a strong sense of self preservation and will run rather than risk an injury that will reduce their efficiency when hunting.

[Sgathak]

Cobra,

Please provide information on where and how you became an expert in predatory techniques and tactics, I would very much like to see information regarding your schooling in this matter. Which universities have you attended and what was your major? Is your focus more zoological physiological or psychological in nature? Do you perhaps have a thesis available where we can get a bit of a deeper insight into your studies?

During your research did you happen to cross reference the nature of evolution between predator and prey species? What is your position on human development in regards to predator influences? What is your position on brain development in homo Sapiens Sapiens in regards to external stimuli and do you feel that there were other stimuli affecting previous species in the homonid family? Hunting for example.

Further, as Ron asked once before, you have made some interesting statments regarding things such as bone strength and bite pressure, I will again ask you to please cite sources on these claims.

I will trust that you have not only done exhaustive research on the subject, you will also have copious notes. Thank you for your time.

[muaythaifreak]

I too would love to see your documentation and references to back up your claims about human strength.

[Cobra]

Cobra:

You've made several claims about punching strength, bone strength (in transverse shear loading no less) bite strength, etc.

Please cite your sources. Note that 'National Enquirer' and other such sources are not normally acceptable as legitimate research tools.

You may have a 180lb Great Dane (really? are you sure it's not a pony with a haircut?) that you can beat with ease, but I'd happily pit you, or anyone else here, against my 7.5 lbs Pug/Russel cross. He's like a biker on PCP....just keeps going and going and going...........my money is on him every time.

I got the bite pressures from Discovery Channels Animal Face-Off. Just to clarify, bite pressures are below in pounds.

Human: 200
Cougar: 300
Lion or Tiger: 1,000
Polar Bear: 1,700

If you don't believe me or don't want to see the show, search at google and see for yourself.

As far as our bone strenght, I'm sure that you have heard from your instructer already, human bone is 3 times stronger than concrete. If this wasn't true, our bones would shatter everytime you tried breaking concrete.

Our greatest weapon against animals is none other than our brain which can help us stragetise on how to conquer such a feat. A normal cave man might not be able nor will he try to.

[De_Franza]

To quote a source:

"1. Ninjas are mammals.

2. Ninjas fight ALL the time.

3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people"

This would indicate to me that all of the animals you are discussing are already ninjas, and would just totally shred you guys.

You bring up a valid point, shame on me for not thinking of it sooner.

[De_Franza]

I bet Andre the Giant could kick an Ocelot's ass.

[muaythaifreak]

What are wolves capable of and what do they do?
To be happy at -20 below, a grown 120 lb. wolf (1500 lb. jaw strength) likes 25 lbs. of fresh hot meat per day if he has his druthers. http://www.montanasnews.com/articles.php?mode=view&id=1154

[Cobra]

What are wolves capable of and what do they do?
To be happy at -20 below, a grown 120 lb. wolf (1500 lb. jaw strength) likes 25 lbs. of fresh hot meat per day if he has his druthers. http://www.montanasnews.com/articles.php?mode=view&id=1154

Wolves and even cougars can increase there force by charging at the object they are going to bite, up to 7,000! But I am talking about if the beast has no chance to sneak up on the man.

[Cobra]

I'd really like to know where your information came from on the bite force of a cougar. The average domestic dog is like 600 to 1000 psi. And they don't have to kill game with their jaws. I think you've recieved some misinformation. Not to mention my Senegal parrot has like 1500 psi or more.
One question, if my legs are so much stronger than a large cat of equal body mass, why is my vertical leap only ten to twelve inches? I mean a cougar can jump several feet vertically. Even my pet cat has a vertical leap of at least six or seven feet and he's only nine inches high at the shoulder. Yet he can leap from the floor to the top of my refridgerator and does so with apparent ease. If your information is correct, I wasted 500.00 on a ladder to clean my gutters when all this time, I could easily jump to my roof. Think about it, my cat can leap seven to eight times his own height. Granted, with increased weight that would probably decline exponentially, but come on. Speaking of discovery channel, I saw a documentary on lions and a gazzelle jumped over a thicket behind which a lion was hiding in ambush. As the gazzelle passed over head at probably better than ten feet, the lion jumped up and caught it in mid air. The lions entire body was at least five feet off the ground. And the lion is the second heaviest of the big cats. Leopards regularly drag 100+ pound prey into the trees so other predators cannot steal their quarry. And it does not seem to be too much trouble for them. You know anyone who can scale a tree with 100 lbs dangling from their jaws? Particularly someone who weighs the approximate equal of a leopard? The leopard averages between five and eight feet in length and weighs from 60 to 210 pounds in the wild. That's pretty close to human body mass.

btw: Leopards, cougars and jaguars are classified as the same species differentiated by geographic location, therefore their bites should have relatively equal force. refer to the part about 100 lbs dangling from their jaws as they scale a tree.

Not true, a domestic dogs bite force is not that high. I don't know where you got that from. A wolf's bite force is at 500 pounds of pressure, and wolves can bite is more than almost all domestic dogs. Some gamebred pitbulls can however sometimes get higher.

Predators, cats especially can pounce at astonomical heights. It doesn't mean it can do the same pounce unless it was stalking it's victim. What I mean is a person's leg is more powerful than a leapords limbs like it's legs. A human's leg is really large if you have noticed compared to other predators limb.

Cougars, leapords, and jaguars are no way apart of the same species. They belong in the same genus, but different species. Actually, cougars are in a totally different genus and many scientist don't even identify them as big cats. Yup, it is true. And all their bite forces are different. Size too. A jaguar has a different way of killing it's prey, it bites the skull and not the neck. Very different cats each of them.

[Sgathak]

Cobra,

Please provide information on where and how you became an expert in predatory techniques and tactics, I would very much like to see information regarding your schooling in this matter. Which universities have you attended and what was your major? Is your focus more zoological physiological or psychological in nature? Do you perhaps have a thesis available where we can get a bit of a deeper insight into your studies?

During your research did you happen to cross reference the nature of evolution between predator and prey species? What is your position on human development in regards to predator influences? What is your position on brain development in homo Sapiens Sapiens in regards to external stimuli and do you feel that there were other stimuli affecting previous species in the homonid family? Hunting for example.

Further, as Ron asked once before, you have made some interesting statments regarding things such as bone strength and bite pressure, I will again ask you to please cite sources on these claims.

I will trust that you have not only done exhaustive research on the subject, you will also have copious notes. Thank you for your time.

Any response to this would be appreciated, seeing as how you simply ignored it. I would expect an expert to be able to wax philosophical regarding the presented questions, of course you did also cite the Discovery Channel as a source.

[muaythaifreak]

The info I've sited is available on the internet, and the numbers vary greatly. I've seen as low as 75 psi for humans and as high as 350. The fact is, there is no reliable way to gauge the psi of an animal's bite simply because you cannot force an animal to bite with all it's power. You cannot expect a wolf or a bear to bite an instrument and communicate to you that it is exerting all of it's force. For wolves I've seen as low as 400 and as high as 1800. All by scientific study and one method or another of gauging. None are absolute and in fact most studies on the subject will tell you as much in the study itself. As far as cats jumping, you're absolutely right. You can't say that they are trying as hard as they can under any given circumstance. However, I know for a fact that there is not a human being alive or dead that can/could vertically leap seven to eight times their own height, regardless of circumstance. It's just not physiologically possible. The size of the muscle is not indicative of the strength it possesses necessarily. Muscles are structured differently depending upon the species of the animal to which it belongs and the job for which the muscle was developed. Take within our own speicies, the difference between a power lifters leg and a body builders leg. The body builders have humongus legs, but they pale in strength comparison to that of a power lifter. The muscles have been developed for differing purposes. The legs of a sprinter are larger than that of runner. That does not automatically mean that the sprinter has "stronger" legs. It simply means that the sprinters legs are developed for rapid acceleration while the runners legs are developed for endurance. i.e. fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. The same is true for cross species comparison. Animals muscles are denser than humans muscles. They are smaller yes, that does not mean that they are weaker. The densest and strongest muscles in the human body are the jaws and the heart. They are not however the largest. My lifting partner's arms are three inches smaller than my own in diameter, but for some reason, he is stronger than me in curls, tricep work, and forearm work. Neither of us by the way are over weight, so it's not that my arms are fat and his are muscle. I actually have lower body fat percentage than he does. His calves are larger than mine but I calf raise fifty pounds more than he. I'm rambling, but my point is that muscle size is not conclusive to muscle strength.

[Skye]

You can beat animals by making them fear you. I've punched a bull on the forehead and it ran away. But if you have actaully been bitten by animals you know they can bite quite hard. I've been bitten by an eel and even that hurt. I've also been bitten by a dog and it took weeks for the bruising to go away.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'm really hoping this thread continues. There have been some very amusing responses to some ridiculous claims.

Sad to see how many people are willing to wade in with "authoritative" statements based on ... on... on... what was that guy in the pub called? Oh yeah, Big Ron... HE told me that an Anteater can give the worst hickey he ever saw! ... said it was the last time he ever tried bestiality too!

[De_Franza]

I still want some word on my Ocelot.
And while it may be a tad off-topic, what about two dogs fighting an ocelot? What about a "powered up" Ocelot?

[Tripitaka of AA]

I reckon that the chimp that does TKD (or was it an Orangutan, I forget..) could take on the Ocelot and the Anteater... I bet they would both line up for him, so he could demonstrate that scissor-splits-kick thing.


What if we found some turtles (real ones) and gave them miniature Sai, Bo and Nunchaku... would the one with the Katana still go for the Pepperoni?

[muaythaifreak]

what about a blind ocelot that knows kung fu against a three toed sloth on crack?

[Cobra]

I'm really hoping this thread continues. There have been some very amusing responses to some ridiculous claims.


And what claims do you think is false?

[Sgathak]

WOW! And you STILL COMPLETELY IGNORED my questions...

I beginning to think you have no answers.

Some expert. :rolleyes:

[Cobra]

WOW! And you STILL COMPLETELY IGNORED my questions...

I beginning to think you have no answers.

Some expert. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry :bow:, I must of accidently missed your post. I will look back and find your post.

[Cobra]

Cobra,

Please provide information on where and how you became an expert in predatory techniques and tactics, I would very much like to see information regarding your schooling in this matter. Which universities have you attended and what was your major? Is your focus more zoological physiological or psychological in nature? Do you perhaps have a thesis available where we can get a bit of a deeper insight into your studies?

During your research did you happen to cross reference the nature of evolution between predator and prey species? What is your position on human development in regards to predator influences? What is your position on brain development in homo Sapiens Sapiens in regards to external stimuli and do you feel that there were other stimuli affecting previous species in the homonid family? Hunting for example.

Further, as Ron asked once before, you have made some interesting statments regarding things such as bone strength and bite pressure, I will again ask you to please cite sources on these claims.

I will trust that you have not only done exhaustive research on the subject, you will also have copious notes. Thank you for your time.


I have a major in zoology. I mainly work with animals belonging to the order Carnivora. My most recent project is teaching captive tigers how to hunt (not the same organization you might have seen on TV). Trust me; it’s no easy task either. It’s like teaching 6 year children how to eat peas, when they have had an all meat diet.

And as far as your question on early humans, I will try my best to answer though I am not sure what you mean by the question.

I am actually Christian don’t really believe our species evolved from other human-like apes. However the story on it is that no, humans didn’t get bigger brains by try to escape in the beginning from predators. It helped a little, but not much compared to the other ways it stimulated early humans. Lions were in existence back when humans were alive, and it did take a lot of brain power to escape but not much brain development. Instead, turning partially carnivorous is what made human smarter. Why, here are the reasons.

Meat is brain food and makes smarter brains.

It made smart apes like them experiment with bones leading to breaking the bone for the marrow inside (with the help of stones).

It makes early humans think on ways to strategize on how to catch prey despite their slow speed.

There are others, but those are the main. In time humans rose from prey to predators, and were known to hunt the largest of animals. No other animals in the past have ever been more successful. You have probably heard of neatherdals. They hunted animals as large as mammoths (note this is a couple million years later after human-like apes). Hope that is what you are looking for.

As far as bone strength and bite pressures, I will tell some stuff about them. I actually no expert on bite pressures, but I have got info for it from discovery channel’s original series, Animal Face-Off. The bite pressures are correct; you can Google search to make sure. Humans are at 200 pounds of bite pressure, but some have gone up to 600 pounds of pressure if trained hard. World record if 900 pounds for a few seconds. Cougars have 300 pounds of pressure, leopards at 500, and a jaguar ranges from 600-800 pounds. Lions and tigers are at 1,000 pounds of bite pressure. Polar Bears can be between 1,700-2,000 pounds of pressure. American Alligators can get too 3,000 pounds.

As far as bone strength goes, a human’s bone is 3 times as strong as concrete. My Tae Kwon Do instructor told me that. Feel free to search at Google if you don’t believe.

Hope this info helps!

[Sgathak]

Well, I posted it twice, so you must have done some serious missing to have not seen it.

Again, which university(ies) have you attended? Do you have any published works that we can look at?

Your ideas on human brain development are quite Discovery Channel (in fact I saw the Alec Baldwin hosted special where they discussed that theory, and for the most part its well a well developed theory) However my questions had nothing to do with food influences, but rather predatory influences. For example, what behavior patterns where ingrained as survival mechanisms? How and in what way was modern human development influenced by proto hominid experiences? Would these influences express themselvs today and in what forms?

In otherwords, do you think that there may be, just possibly, on the outside chance, be the smallest glimmer of a morsel of evidence to suggest that humans arnt as tough as you seem to think they are and that tool useage was a RESPONSE to this reality? That the ability to construct tools and weapons had a binary benefit of allowing both attack AND defense? That humans are biologically programmed to use the grey matter between their ear to disengage from fights with long toothed, sharp clawed aggressors unless armed themselvs? That while it doesnt take a whole lot in the way of tool useage to ESCAPE, nor does it take an excessive amount of brain power to scavenge (even vultures know theirs good stuff to eat inside bones), it might take a little bit more to ACTIVELY ENGAGE a wild animal in mortal combat? Possibly sticks, stones, spears, and knives? That the human survival instinct is NOT to close with and engage a superior predator?

Personally, I like to think that your average human is smart enough to not go looking for a fight with a leopard, jaguar, bear, or chimpanzee (or whatever else you can come up with) and that as a student of Zoology, you would have the sense to not advocate such stupidity.

And yes, andre the Giant could beat up and ocelot, but only if Bruce Lee didnt let his flying monkeys loose first! :rolleyes:

[De_Franza]

I gotta say that a zoologist who doesn't belive in evolution is sort of like a Nascar driver who doesn't belive in gasoline.

And once the animals are on crack, well, that's a horse of a different color.

[riku]

I gotta say that a zoologist who doesn't belive in evolution is sort of like a Nascar driver who doesn't belive in gasoline---

Talking about hitting the spot..Thank you, Bill :D :D :D .. think I tore something ..

I haven't studied evolution, but I thought that brain development was/is rather complex issue.. remember that I read something about mobility of jaw, and changes in capacity of skull.. that could have something to do with food, but not simply jumping into eating meat.. taking a priori theory out of blue, one could say that brain development goes hand in hand with weakening of main senses: when eyes and ears (visual and aural organs) don't take so much space on skull, the brain starts to work better - and finally we'll have computer geeks :D :D


Riku Ylönen

[Sgathak]

and finally we'll have computer geeks

Which evolved primarily in Finland, or so I hear... :D

[Cobra]

It is so strange of on how animals experts and martial artists think.

I tried this thread in a couple other martial art forums aside from BudoSeek and got the same exact responses. Basicly, martial artist it seems hates the idea of humans having any chance against animals, and think it is illogical to think so.

I asked another forum with a bunch of other animal experts. Some of the members worked with bears for 20 years, while others were expert on lions, tigers, wolves, ect.. And I asked them about man vs. animal and what would be the outcome and they say a different response. They say humans can take animals around the same time only if he is large in size and has some martial arts training.

So strange how martial artists and animal experts have such different views on how using martial arts on animals will result. Which side to believe. Hard to when you are both.

Oh and De_Franza, I believe in the theory of evolution, not just how the Universe and Earth began. Infact, I have created a theory proving Earth is billions of years old, but was still created by God.

[Tripitaka of AA]

This is where I think Budoseek needs to follow an example from the movies... reincarnate an old villain/hero to battle against the latest threat to society.

Bring back Kimpatsu (my old mate). He would no doubt enjoy this discussion and also bring in some scientific (and grammatical) criticism... both of which might prove motally wounding to Cobra's posting.

[Sgathak]

True, but like an evil plague, he cannot be controlled and at LEAST one city will need to be nuked to contain the pathogens.

[Tripitaka of AA]

And what claims do you think is false?


what claim do you think is false? or what claims do you think are false?


Claims which I think are false;


Sure thay got big teeth or claws, but an average man is several times more stronger than any of them.
What do you mean by "strong"? Ability to lift? Ability to jump? Is it just on a limb by limb comparison? Other posters have given some very simple comparisons that suggest that a human's ability to jump, run, bite would all fall short of the animals to which you have referred. If you really are comparing the man's thighs to a Leopard's equivalent, then you are simply picking one component from the whole machine... and that doesn't help anybody, does it (my car might have better tyres than yours, but it has a humdrum low-power diesel engine and a leaky roof... will I beat yours in a race?)


Great apes (including humans) are much stronger than animals around the same strenght, but lack the strong claws of such predators.
perhaps you meant "... around the same height"


I think you lack info on animal strenghts and weaknesses. Trust me, I am an expert on predatory techniques and tatics.



As far as our bone strenght, I'm sure that you have heard from your instructer already, human bone is 3 times stronger than concrete.
Is that Tensile Strength, Hardness, Toughness or Resistance to Torsion/Shear?



As somebody else pointed out earlier, when an animal attack in the wild is successfully repelled it usually involves the predatory creature turning tail and retreating. The part of an animal's brain that decides whether or not to indulge in potentially harmful conflict, for whatever reason, seems to have a fairly sensible cut-off valve.... if only all human beings were still in possession of such a valve... :rolleyes:

[De_Franza]

I think all of us are more in agreement than out of it. (but I've been wrong before :D)
Sgataks comments about Tony were quite funny, though I liked Tony and his contributions.
Lots of people have that compromise where they say god created evolution and everything. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. For me, there's no reason to rely on a supernatural explanation for anything. Just because something hasn't been explained yet, doesn't mean it can't be, you know?

It's funny how you said the zoologists said the martial artists could fight the animals, and the martial artists say it's a bad idea. Reminds me of a line from Kung Fu (the show, with Dave Carradine)."It is said a Shaolin can walk thru walls." (says some guy to Kwai Chang) "It was not a Shaolin who said that," (chang answers). LOL!

Perhaps that demonstrates the public's misunderstanding of MA's or that MA's tend to train for peace and life, rather than actual fighting, or to think that way, at least. You know what I mean? While maybe I could beat down that 6 foot tall dude, but why if I don't have to? There's always unknown risk in a violent encounter.

[Cobra]

I think all of us are more in agreement than out of it. (but I've been wrong before :D)
Sgataks comments about Tony were quite funny, though I liked Tony and his contributions.
Lots of people have that compromise where they say god created evolution and everything. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. For me, there's no reason to rely on a supernatural explanation for anything. Just because something hasn't been explained yet, doesn't mean it can't be, you know?

It's funny how you said the zoologists said the martial artists could fight the animals, and the martial artists say it's a bad idea. Reminds me of a line from Kung Fu (the show, with Dave Carradine)."It is said a Shaolin can walk thru walls." (says some guy to Kwai Chang) "It was not a Shaolin who said that," (chang answers). LOL!

Perhaps that demonstrates the public's misunderstanding of MA's or that MA's tend to train for peace and life, rather than actual fighting, or to think that way, at least. You know what I mean? While maybe I could beat down that 6 foot tall dude, but why if I don't have to? There's always unknown risk in a violent encounter.

People are entitled to their own beliefs. Believing there is a God is really irreverent to what we are talking about.

I undertand what you are saying about fighting animals. Don't get me wrong, I am not looking to pick fights with animals or any humans for that matter.

Why do we train for martial arts? To be prepared for when the situation arises. You are not supposed to go around and show off with your MA, but what I am talking about is if the situation arises. Whether it is being stalked by a human, or a cougar. And if you were attacked by a cougar, you should only know attacks to get you out of the situation, not to kill the cougar. Know what I am saying?

[Cobra]

Let's put a scenario into this.

You are hiking in a mountain, no gun or knife. You all of a sudden cross path mountain lion. He stares into your eyes, as you stare back into his. What would you do?

[Sgathak]

You make yourself big, yell, and back slowly away

You dont go "HiYA!" and try and fight it... for someone who watches alot of discovery channel, you missed alot of "animal planet" :laugh:

[Jeff C.]

Perhaps sight is being lost here on just what comprises "using martial arts" in an encounter.

Physical technique is one small part of it. Knowing your potential enemy, how to move in enemy territory, how to avoid an encounter with a potential enemy, and how to psychologically manipulate an encounter WITHOUT physical technique are arguably more important than physical technique. Unless you are a soldier seeking out the enemy to destroy him, physical technique is a last resort.

All of this applies to human AND animal encounters.

I am a soldier, I am a security consultant, I am a martial artist, AND I used to work with animals at Sarasota Jungle Gardens many years ago - I did the reptile show. I worked with what many would consider dangerous animals; I handled venomous snakes, and I handled alligators on a daily basis. Additionally I was called upon to work with the mammals on occassion, including leopards. I continued to do educational lectures with reptiles, using my own collection, after I left Jungle Gardens.

Animals and people are dangerous if you try to operate outside the safety parameters of their behavior. For instance, while free-handing Chinese monocellate cobras, one might view my free-handing as dangerous and foolish. But I know that if I pick up the snake at the right place and at the right time, with the snake in a hooded posture, my chances of being bit were very small. Conversely I knew when NOT to handle the snake in that fashion (I am oversimplifying cobra-handling procedures for the sake of brevity). I also know that statistically most reptile handlers are bit when they grasp a venomous snake behind the head, therefore I ONLY handled them that way when absolutely necessary. In short, I operated within relatively safe parameters based upon the snake's known behavior.

The same is true of alligators, one of the most benign large reptiles on the planet, but with an unfortunate reputation because most people are ignorant of true alligator behavior, both in the wild and in captivity.

This all applies to humans as well. Humans are more complicated animals, with more complicated behaviors, but those behaviors are still predictable. And as they are predictable, safety parameters can be developed and utilized when dealing with violent individuals (as well as violent animals).

But don't make the mistake of thinking that the procedures are ONLY physical. They are largely psychological, both with humans AND animals.

Did I just muddy the water unnecessarily?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Sgathak]

Did I just muddy the water unnecessarily?

No not at all... However, unless I missed something, Cobras entire arguement has been based on the physical aspects. (bone shearing, jaw strength, muscle size, etc) which is what was being responded too.

I would argue that dealing with animals in the wild is as much proper woodsmanship as it is "martial".

[Jeff C.]

He's arguing about the physical aspects, but the other aspects are inextricably tied to the physical aspects. Thus my remarks.

As a soldier I strongly feel that woodsmanship IS a part of my martial perspective.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Cobra]

You make yourself big, yell, and back slowly away

You dont go "HiYA!" and try and fight it... for someone who watches alot of discovery channel, you missed alot of "animal planet" :laugh:

Very Close! Yes, you would make yourself look big. And don't yell, groul really loud like a beast in hopes of scarying it away. Yelling would only make it excited. Don't back away right away, this will make the cougar want to chase you no matter how slow you walk back.

If that doesn't work and it tries to attack you, go for the eyes and head. If you can, grab the mouth and hold it down as hard as you can, and then strike the throat.

That was told to me from expert I know on bears. Note: DO NOT TRY THIS ON BEARS!

[Cobra]

But the point I am trying to make is it isn't impossible to defend yourself against preadator around your size. Might not be much to you, but you can still inflict serious damage on the beast you fight. It won't be easy, since they can inflict far more damage on you. But your greatest weapon with a fight with such a beast is your brain. The ability to know it's weak spots, or to know it's attacks will help you survive an attack by a beast.

[Sgathak]

DIE THREAD DIE! :laugh:

[Tripitaka of AA]

That was told to me from expert I know on bears. Note: DO NOT TRY THIS ON BEARS!


Yeah, my brother Mike is, like, totally up on Bears. He's seen every episode ever of "Grizzly Adams".

[Jeff C.]

I think we can all agree that this thread has played itself out. If anyone has anything new AND relevant, feel free to open a new thread.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jeff C.]

Thread closed.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu