View Full Version : To limit myself is not martial art
raindown
06-11-2004, 04:13
hey all.
first I would like to say that this is a great thing (budoseek) and its the best way to really dig deep into martial arts (talking to other artists)
ok, now that that’s out of the way.
I was walking with my Shotokan instructor the other day. and i mentioned an interest in ninjitsu and he laughed. i asked him what was so funny and he said that ninjitsu is good, but not for me because i don’t have a nidan yet. he said that i should not study any martial arts accept shotokan until i have a nidan. for those who don’t know the belt growth in the SKA (shotokan karate America) its very slow. a kyu every 6 months, and then a dan every few years. so from where I am it would take about 5 years to get a nidan in shotokan.
I felt that was a hell of a long time to wait before i spread my knowledge base. And i understand where he is coming from but i feel that martial arts is not a linier thing. and that to be good you must understand many levels. i have many years experience in the martial arts (10+) and it has helped me in many ways. example: a few days ago i put a 3rd degree black belt on his back with a double leg take down that i learned from a Greco roman wrestler. i believe that to over simplify yourself is dangerous.
=
this is obvious when you see aikido guys that think they are untouchable or karate guys that think they are unmovable. its simply not true. i spar with aikido guys allot who practice reversals to poor strikes. they don’t practice a reversal with MY strikes in mind. i believe aikido and karate or any other art can be complete if you just view it from more angles.
in this way i feel that him requesting me not to study ninjitsu is almost religious and silly. I mean why would I dedicate my self to one thing so blindly? if he is going to give me an ultimatum like that i would feel disinclined to agree with him and just move on. but i have invested time into my karate. i don’t know what to do.
what do you all think?
raindown
06-11-2004, 05:35
also. does any one have any sugested reading into bujinkan or anything ninjitsu related?
I'll take the bait on this one.
Firstly, if you are studying a japanese martial art, one should respect the teachings of the teacher. This is how it is done in japan and most other places.
However, I would understand that you may not feel this way. Not everyone does.
Secondly, no matter how much previous experience you may have, there is still years of knowledge to aquire in one art. So five years isn't a long time at all.
Lastly, any right minded aikidoka should not think that they are untouchable.
Jeff Burger
06-11-2004, 06:39
I think he is saying to focus on 1 thing at a time.
Jeff
I think he is saying to focus on 1 thing at a time.
Jeff
Thank you Jeff!
If you are worried about not being challenged enough in one martial art... TRAIN HARDER! Its up to you mate.
Jeff Burger
06-11-2004, 07:07
I offer a variety of classes at our school. I get people who say they want to learn self defense and ask what class should they do.
I tell them kick boxing for striking and grappling for the ground work. And come to weekend seminar stuff where we deal with more street oriented stuff.
When I teach kick boxing and grappling we practice that sporty aspect, but we also go thorugh more street variations. This fist in his face could be other hand positions for eyes, throat...
Weekend seminars could be on defending against a knife, using a knife, improvised weapons, escaping common holds, multiple attackers.
With all this seminars we talk about fear, being surprised an other differences between sport and street.
I dont let people take just the weekend seminar stuff.
I see too many "self defense" schools who teach all these tactics but the students lack good singular technique. These schools also seem to like to bad mouth martial art styles.
On the other hand you have "style" schools that have students with awesome indiviual technique but cant put things together well or dont have much if any clue of how a street fight may differ.
Jeff
John Bennett
06-11-2004, 09:24
> "i believe that to over simplify yourself is dangerous."
I believe that too. What are your goals?
Do you want to become really good at Shotokan?
Do you want to learn good self defense?
Do you want to play the amateur tournament scene?
Do you want to fight for money?
Do you want to be well-rounded?
Shotokan has a fairly narrow focus on punching, kicking, with a few sweeps. Thus, in my humble opinion, you need to add some grappling to become well-rounded if that is your goal. My opinion is that Nidan is asking a bit much before beginning to develop your grappling skill set.
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 09:35
I agree, it all depends on your goals.
But just from another perspective, I trained in a Japanese JJ style and a Karate style for six years straight in the same dojo taught by the same instructor. JJ was Mon, Wed, and Fri, and Karate was Tues, Thurs, and Sat. I didn't see any problems with training both at the same time.
I guess each instructor has their own opinions on it.
Raindown, ninjitsu is very appealing, but if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk.
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 11:12
Raindown, ninjitsu is very appealing, but if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk.
That doesn't make any sense. Traditionally ALL martial arts in the East were started at a young age because they were family arts being passed down in feudal societies. He wants to "study" ninjutsu, not be a ninja.
There is a saying one of my instructors was fond of:
To learn fast, you must go slow.
While I agree that to remain content with one fixed art is dangerous, you don't want to try and learn it all at once. You'll slow down your development overall, as you try and absorb conflicting ideas. It's better to learn just one thing at a time, and incorporate new ideas as you encounter them.
He wants to "study" ninjutsu, not be a ninja.
If he did not want to be a ninja, then he would not want to study ninjitsu. I don't devote myself to Chemistry if I don't want to be a chemist. I don't study philosophy if I don't want to be a philosopher. Yes, originally all martial arts were tought at a young age, but not at the extremity that ninjitsu did.
raindown
06-11-2004, 13:34
my goal (for those of you who are asking) is to be a well rounded martial artist. ive never really worried about street fights because using a stun gun or pepper spray would be much easier then mastering a martial art to defend myself. I have participated in tournaments but i am not interested in them at all anymore. i think they do not represent real martial arts well, no matter what the rules. Martial arts is something that gives me balance. it helps me understand my self, others, physics, chemistry, psychology and discipline. That is why i feel i should branch out. and in my opinion, if i spend x amount of hours a week on shotokan, and then add y amount on something else it shouldn’t affect either art. as long as y does not subtract from x, or either way around. that’s my opinion.
about ninjitsu: i get really curious the more i read about it. I don’t expect to be a ninja, but no one should ever expect to be a master in anything. its the "way" not the "end" that we all study.
its the "way" not the "end" that we all study.
Nicely put. I concede.
raindown
06-11-2004, 13:54
thank you :bow:
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 15:51
If he did not want to be a ninja, then he would not want to study ninjitsu. I don't devote myself to Chemistry if I don't want to be a chemist. I don't study philosophy if I don't want to be a philosopher.
That is completly wrong. Did it ever occur to you that some people want to broaden their horizones and try new things? I am sure there are a lack of Japanese Feudal Lords willing to hire him to assasinate someone, so becoming a "ninja" isn't even possible. What he can become is very good at the martial art of ninjutsu if he puts the effort into it.
Yes, originally all martial arts were tought at a young age, but not at the extremity that ninjitsu did.
Really? what movie did you get that from?
Your original post was basically "don't waste your time, because you are too old." I am sure the thousands of folks in Bujinkan and Genbukan would disagree with that.
I guess from your point of view no one should even bother with kenjutsu, iaido, jujutsu, etc., because they were originally started at a young age.
raindown
06-11-2004, 16:18
not to drift too far from topic. should I not peruse other martial arts like my teacher says? i feel like i should just keep doing what im doing (studying allot of different stuff) and if he has a problem with it i can just take myself to any other of the many SKA associated karate schools in nyc. i mean, i can finish what i start anywhere because i a member of SKA.
does that seem to naive or brash?
Cliff Hargrave
06-11-2004, 16:23
I say give it a try. Do what you want. If it seems like too much or one art is suffering for another then you can always go back to what you were doing.
RA Miller
06-11-2004, 18:46
If he did not want to be a ninja, then he would not want to study ninjitsu. I don't devote myself to Chemistry if I don't want to be a chemist. I don't study philosophy if I don't want to be a philosopher.
Hey- I study philosophy, chemistry, history, psychology, geology, biology.... and I have absolutely no desire to be an 'ist'. I just like knowing stuff. And being able to do stuff.
But to the main track- some people jump from style to style to gather skills and understanding, but the vast majority jump around because they lack the discipline to stick with anything.
Some people stick with one martial art because they want the deepest possible understanding they can get from it, but the vast majority stick with it out of intellectual laziness and lack of imagination or initiative.
There are bad reasons for making either decision. This is where the instructor is supposed to step in. A bad instructor will tell you to stay because you are a source of income. A good instructor will tell you to stay because he sees a lack of commitment as one of your biggest weaknesses and it is his job to make you face your weaknesses.
A bad instructor will tell you to check out other styles because you annoy him and he hopes that you will leave, or so that he can see how his students do elsewhere without risking his own reputation. A good instructor will tell you to leave when you get too comfortable and need to be pulled off the teat.
Rory
not to drift too far from topic. should I not peruse other martial arts like my teacher says? i feel like i should just keep doing what im doing (studying allot of different stuff) and if he has a problem with it i can just take myself to any other of the many SKA associated karate schools in nyc. i mean, i can finish what i start anywhere because i a member of SKA.
I would advise against it; but like Cliff said, do what you want. I don't think you'll irreparably damage yourself in any way-- at worst, you'll just slow down your skill development in both arts. But if you're willing to accept that, then I have no right to tell you differently.
That is completly wrong. Did it ever occur to you that some people want to broaden their horizones and try new things? I am sure there are a lack of Japanese Feudal Lords willing to hire him to assasinate someone, so becoming a "ninja" isn't even possible. What he can become is very good at the martial art of ninjutsu if he puts the effort into it.
Really? what movie did you get that from?
Your original post was basically "don't waste your time, because you are too old." I am sure the thousands of folks in Bujinkan and Genbukan would disagree with that.
I guess from your point of view no one should even bother with kenjutsu, iaido, jujutsu, etc., because they were originally started at a young age.
Actually, if you read my entire post you would've noticed the word TRADITIONAL. As for the information it came from here. (http://www.resource-media.com/arts/Ninjitsu/ninjitsu.html)
Did I say he couldn't study ninjitsu? NO
Did I say not to broaden his experience? NO
Next time before you attack my words please read them, and please refrain from making any more unfounded assumptions. As the old saying goes, "When you assume you make an a** out of u and me."
Cliff Hargrave
06-12-2004, 01:47
Actually, if you read my entire post you would've noticed the word TRADITIONAL.
So Bujinkan and Genbukan are not traditional? Then what is? Where is this traditional school that you can only attend when you begin to walk? How in the world do "real" ninjas starting training as children have anything what so ever to do with martial arts now?
As for the information it came from here. (http://www.resource-media.com/arts/Ninjitsu/ninjitsu.html)
Wow, cool website, by a kid with black belts in KENPO styles!
Did I say he couldn't study ninjitsu? NO
No you said... "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
Did I say not to broaden his experience? NO
No you said... "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
Next time before you attack my words please read them, and please refrain from making any more unfounded assumptions.
Silly me, I assumed you said "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
As the old saying goes, "When you assume you make an a** out of u and me."
Ok, so now you want to be a smart-*** instead of engaging in discussion or maybe explaining what you meant. Figures, very junior-high of you. I guess you would prefer if you could just post whatever you wanted and have everyone here completely agree with you. Apparently you are way too immature to engage in discussions here.
Don't worry, from now on when I see posts by you I am going to assume you don't have a clue.
Here is a quote for you! "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
:laugh: <- me LMAO at you
So Bujinkan and Genbukan are not traditional? Then what is? Where is this traditional school that you can only attend when you begin to walk? How in the world do "real" ninjas starting training as children have anything what so ever to do with martial arts now?
Again if you had actually read what I wrote then you would've seen that I said nothing about those two martial arts.
Wow, cool website, by a kid with black belts in KENPO styles!
If you have a problem with his website then confront HIM about it not ME.
No you said... "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
No you said... "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
Silly me, I assumed you said "if you desire to study traditional ninjitsu you're too old. Traditionally you begin almost as soon as you are able to walk."
Like I said in my last post, I was speaking only of TRADITIONAL NINJITSU! I DID NOT say that he COULD NOT NOR did I say that he SHOULD NOT broaden his knowledge or refrain from taking any martial art.
Ok, so now you want to be a smart-*** instead of engaging in discussion or maybe explaining what you meant. Figures, very junior-high of you. I guess you would prefer if you could just post whatever you wanted and have everyone here completely agree with you. Apparently you are way too immature to engage in discussions here.
Don't worry, from now on when I see posts by you I am going to assume you don't have a clue.
Here is a quote for you! "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
:laugh: <- me LMAO at you
Well that's very mature of you. Maybe when I'm 38 I'll be mature enough to insult and attempt to mock those half my age. As for my quote on assuming it was only to prove that you shouldn't make assumptions. Don't bother replying to this because I'm abandoning this thread with as much civility as you've allowed me to retain.
raindown
06-12-2004, 18:24
Again if you had actually read what I wrote then you would've seen that I said nothing about those two martial arts.
this quote was in reference to Bujinkan and Genbukan.
im sorry to tell you bud, but bujinkan and genbukan are both NINJA arts.
so when you said anything about ninjitsu then these two would fall under that catagory. This beeing said, it apears that you may not know as much about the ninja as you may think. so i think it would be wise to simply just move on.
but, i digress (and i think we all did)
Hmm what does ninjitsu have that your dojo doesn't. Yea I too want to learn other arts too. And yes Bujinkan and Genbukan are real ninja arts. I think Dr. Hatsumi is the head of Bujinkan(I'm not too sure about this i thought i read it somewhere). And a good book about Ninjistu would be the book ninjitsu its written by Dr. Hatsumi. Its totally up to you raindown about training in Ninjistu. And if you find a good Ninjistu place have fun at it.
raindown
06-12-2004, 20:39
its just that shotokan, tho i respect it greatly, is very limited in its thinking. no weapons, very little grappling, and so on and so fourth. basicaly im not a religous person when it comes to martial arts if you catch my drift. allot of people belive in their art as if it was the best. they dont care to learn or hear about anything else. all my life ive been in schools where the teachers say how great there art is. its just not the way i think about things. and ninjitsu seems so well rounded, (and needless to say, efective.) i just thought i would give it a try, thats all. plus shurikanjustu looks like fun.
Yea I hear ya. Ninjistu is suppose to be well rounded but i don't have expericne in it so i dunno. And no ground fighting hmm you might wanna try jiu-jistsu. But try ninjitsu and see what its like.
Jeff Burger
06-12-2004, 23:45
So Jim in the making of a proper chilli would one use dried beans or canned beans.
Being Aussie do you use lamb instead of beef?
I can go either way so long as its served with good cornbread.
Jeff
So Jim in the making of a proper chilli would one use dried beans or canned beans.
Being Aussie do you use lamb instead of beef?
I can go either way so long as its served with good cornbread.
Jeff
Gourmets will use goat meat and fresh beans- the original Mexican and SW Chili ingredients.
raindown
06-13-2004, 00:21
indeed...........
Jeff Burger
06-13-2004, 07:19
Mmmm goat meat.
Jeff
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.