Tibetain martial arts

[alergatto]

Hi all,
Have you news on tibetain martial arts? I've seen a site that shows a kung fu style from tibet: kung fu tao lung,
http://www.kungfugeneve.ch
I would have more news on tao lung, and on tibetain martial arts :up:

[Sochin]

ummm, alergatto,

you must sign your full name somewhere in your post or your sig, as you agreed when you signed up. :)

Now, I do a tai chi like form called Lok Hup Ba Fa that some relate back to Tibet but I have not found any indiginous kung fu to the country of Tibet in my research.

That a country that hates China as Tibet does to call it's martial art, kung fu, seems ridiculous...off hand, anyway.

[W.Kent Bergstrom]

I am not going to say anything more than I have asked one of my senior teachers of Buddhism who is a native Tibetan about Tibetan MA's.
(not because of this thread either ;) )
He is a big fan of American Boxing and Martial arts of the world.
He said very clearly that "if there was such a thing as Tibetan Martial Arts" he would have heard of it" because all during his youth he wanted to study these physical arts.
He said there were none that he knew of. He's in his 80's and is the Abbot of KTD Monastary. So there is little that he has not been exposed to as far as his country.
I would be very skeptical. Could be a kung fu style that migrated to Tibet?

[Musubi Dojo]

Seems possible. There's a lot of Chinese military there isn't there?

[sean_stonehart]

The closest things to Tibetan MA is Lion's Roar/White Crane/Lama Pai nowadays...

The guy with the nunchucks in the pics is a little sneaky suspicious to me... :up:

[SRK85]

I thought tibetan monks were peaceful?

[Sochin]

Methinks somebody was just trying to promote their website...?

[Mad Max]

Tibetan White Crane. This form of White Crane is different from the Southern White Crane of China (I think at least).

[lightninrod]

In the back of Ninja vol.4, there is an interview with Stephen Hayes where the interviewer asks him some questions about his relationship with the Dalai Lama. He mentions something there about a Tibetan martial art, which he was studying on and off at the time. You might ask him through his Quest website about this. The address is www.skhquest.com . He has answered questions for me on other subjects through this site, so I don't see why he wouldn't answer yours.


Justin Mears

[DvividYMAA]

Shaolin White Crane Kung Fu (soft-hard style) was brought to Northern Tibet, where it is now known as La Ma, by a monk named Xinglong who was sent from Shaolin to study Buddhism. Buddhist Monks are peaceful of course, but martial arts back in ancient times were a matter of life and death, and invasions were frequent. Ancient martial arts included the training of qigong, so it was interrelated training for meditation anyway.

Also, remember that Chinese martial arts were created as defense. The original word in China 'Wushu' meant "To Defend Against Weapons"...it has changed over the years.

Tibet had extremely advanced Qigong practitioners as well, and there are stories of very advanced abilities in Tibet, which of course are the root of the many 'mystical' and false statements re: Qigong. We are so far removed from this energetic sensitivity in modern times it is hard to believe what the human body is capable of.

For instance, more recently when the Chinese went to invade Tibet (because their "Religion Is Poison") often times the Tibetans were able to forsee the arrival of the troops and move out of harm's way. (Eventually they stayed and fought, but guns and extreme destructive violence usually "win".) When you are connected with the Tao, truth is infinite. You are aware of all things. Like when the animals in Africa suddenly leave the lowlands months before an earthquake.

Also, Liu He Ba Fa literally means, “six combinations eight methods.” it is one of the Chinese internal martial arts, its techniques are combined from Taijiquan, Xingyi and Baguazhang, created by Chen Bo between 960-1279 A.D. rarely trained, because you have to completely master Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua first, which should take several decades if done properly.

[alergatto]

Hi all,
Thanx for your answers about Tao Lung.
I've found another site at : http://www.shop-pa.com/lehighvalleymartialarts/Site/Showcase%20Detail%201.htm.
I think that only today exists the division in martial arts from japan, china, vietnam etc. in the past martial arts were developped and transmitted inside the village, or family, and were really a lot, infact not only warriors learned the way to fight, but martial arts belonged to the culture of chinese, japonese, mongolian people etc.
In the past the Tibet was a free country, with a chief, with a religion, a language, with laws, inside the monasteries, monks had all functions, also police tasks.
To mainteign freedom Tibetain had to defence, their status, so they had also military forces.
It's true that tibetains were pacific people, but they had to defence themselves.
Now we all know that kung fu started in monasteries...Bodhidharma was also a monk...another example of monaster is shaolin.
For all this reason I think not only martial arts existed in Tibet, but there were also more then one .
Then we can discuss on what is arrived to our days, what we call karate, or kung fu or vietwodao to generalize, but a lot were the schools in the past.
I sent an email to kung fu tao lung web site asking news about his style, because I'm interessed in martial arts.
Someone answered that kung fu tao lung is a martial art from tibet, because tibetain were the monks that taught tao lung to his master, and his master (Ivano Bonocore) use to call this style kung fu, so easily people can understand what is tao lung: a martial art, close to chinese styles, complete of meditation, weapons, tao, and so on.
Now the fact that it was secret until now , was due to chinese invasion.
Infact until the Tibet was invaded from chinese, tibetain were inside Tibet, and they remained there, after, most of monks (pay attention: monks were women, and men) moved and escaped to other countries, a lot is living in USA, but also around the world, and their mission became: to develop knowledge of their culture to the world.
The Dalay Lama, decided: Tibetain are without a country, but not without a culture.
And Tao Lung as explained is not just kick the face of an enemy, but also meditation, studies, medicine...
I would know if someone has news of Ivano Bonocore, or more about other tao lung styles...
Many thanks to all again, your knowledge and opinions will be helpfull, I'll appreciate them.
Regards
:up:

[esterno]

hi
I'm ernesto, I write from italy

I'd like to say something about Ivano Bonocore but my english is very limited, sorry, I'm going to be as clear as possible
I studied kung fu for two years from a teacher who studied from Ivano Bonocore, I met Bonocore a lot of time.
I can't write now all about this experience but surely i can say that Ivano Bonocore is a bad person.
He built up a sectary organization called Centro di Studi Teosofici Avalon (something like: Avalon, Teosofic Studies Centre), here he teach a lot of things and practice the hypnotism on his students with (as he says) terapeutic pourpouses.
I think in the past he was a very good martialist, however he doesn't teach any more because he is a fat old man; all his valid students/teachers are gone away: someone because wasn't blind, someone else because asked too much about the origin of this kung fu: Bonocore dismisses who doubt his words. My teacher was dismissed because he refused to enter in the Avalon Centre like student. Bonocore didn't do anythig for us, now without teacher, neither an e-mail, he abandoned us, The Great Master!!!
I think Bonocore's Tao Lung is a lie, he invented it.
thanks
ernesto

P.S. the internet site from switzerland reguard probably the school opened by a Bonocore's student who left italy same years ago, he is a good person

[jwinch2]

Welcome to Budoseek Ernesto... Thanks for remembering to include your full name in your profile. Sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience.

On this site you will find many knowledgable Martial Artists (Myself EXcluded), who will be more than willing to hopefully help you find something that gives you a better experience in the future...

Enjoy your stay!

[aplonis]

I too am a long-time student of a Tibetan-born Rinpoche. There is no such thing as a secret, Tibetan, martial art. The borders between various Tibetan/Chinese regions have ever been in duspute, however. What is one century part of Tibet might be Chinese in the next and vice versa. There is also considerable cross-cultural influence on both sides.

But if Tibetans were so devoted to violent combative arts, they would have fared less disasterously during the Chinese invasion of 1959 and since. My own guru studied Aikido for a while. He liked that very well. He took it incognito so that there would be one social venue in which people would not defer to him, and would not fear to lay hands on him...in short, would treat him just as anybody else. And it was good exercise. The hours and hours of meditation, although good for the mind, did not benefit the cardio system.

In good humor I might point out that perhaps one might care to read a little less T. Lobsang Rampa and so be less vulnerable to all manor of absurd claims about this or that ultra-secret Tibetan method of whatever-it-is.

[ling hou]

Ok sorry this is all from memory because I don’t have any of my books with me here in China…..

Tibet was not always passive as we would like to believe…During the Tang Dynasty… the only region that could stand toe-to-toe with the Chinese were the Tibetans…
Because of this fact the Emperor (can’t remember which one) of China, got help form other frontier peoples to help stop the warriors of Tibet.
In doing this the Tang Dynasty further gave up more control and resources to other foreign people, which lead to the dynasties down fall.
Tibet has been seen as the backdoor of China, because of the Tang Dynasty.
In my opinion because of the war that Tibet fought with the British, Mao saw this also as the back door of China. He was an avid reader of Chinese history. Mao in all his terribleness was still a great military leader.
So does Tibet have martial arts? Yes.
Is it an open hand style…I don’t know? But because Tibet was not an isolated place and had contact with many different people throughout their history, I would imagine that they did have something.
Plus with one of the many silk roads traveling through Tibet it would be logical that ideas and concepts passed through…cross cultural exchange does not always relay on religion or goods…but also on ways to fight….a good example of this is the bow and arrow, stirrup, crossbow, and even water tight compartments. Throughout history the world has been global, sure it might have taken 100’s of years to cross, but it did cross.
With the concept of 1959, if you (martial artists) get in a fight with someone with a gun, your skills no mater if you know the ninja-phase-shifting-underwater-cloud-stepping-iron-pinky-technique will be very hard pressed to stop a bullet. Superior fire power is always an equalizer. :bow:

[aplonis]

True enough that Tibet was closed only to Westerners at the order of the 13th Dalai Lama...to avoid contention betweenImperial Russia and Imperial Britain as to which empire should wield influence there. Which is how a pair of escaped German prisoners of war got in during WW2...they were so scruffy and ragged by then that Tibetans took them for Berbers.

And indeed, prior to the 11th Century or so Tibet was its own regional power broker, enough so to dictate terms to Imperial China. Even after that they were militarily important for a while. The first thing China did after 1959 was take down the monument in Lhasa commemorating an important victory of Tibet over China from all those centuries ago.

But all that largely came to an end when the Mongols ran roughshod over China and Tibet both. And Buddhism was rising inside of Tibet all the while so that they gradually did become very, very peaceful indeed. The transformation was complete by around the 17th Century. There was virtually no army, nor hardly any need of one from then until the Chinese invasion.

So from the 17th Century until now is a very long time, yes? A long, long period of decline and disuse for practically all things martial. Purely Tibetan ones, anyway. But as decried before, the borders were somewhat indefinite. There may have been areas where some Chinese martial art was practiced which might be...nominally...Tibet. But that does not make it an indigenous Tibetan martial art.

And all manner of foreign enclaves existed in the larger Tibetan towns. Some MA might have been practiced there for all that anyone knows. But I doubt you could call it Tibetan. It is not a common topic of conversation whenever I chance to meet a Tibetan. But the few times I've heard it discussed, all denied there was any such thing as a native Tibetan martial art...unless you want to count those big staffs carried by the monastery police-monks. And even they did not have a rigorous course of study. I doubt anyone would call their practice an 'art'.

That said, there were Tibetan monasteries scattered here and there inside of China itself...and in Mongolia too, of course. If cross-cultural MA influences are to be looked for, I would search there. Uncounted monks, Tibetan, Mongolian and Chinese all had myriad opportunities for study at each others monasteries. No doubt there was cross-pollenation there. But I still would not call whatever might have resulted "Tibetan".

[metankosappo]

hi
I'm ernesto, I write from italy

I'd like to say something about Ivano Bonocore but my english is very limited, sorry, I'm going to be as clear as possible
I studied kung fu for two years from a teacher who studied from Ivano Bonocore, I met Bonocore a lot of time.
I can't write now all about this experience but surely i can say that Ivano Bonocore is a bad person.
He built up a sectary organization called Centro di Studi Teosofici Avalon (something like: Avalon, Teosofic Studies Centre), here he teach a lot of things and practice the hypnotism on his students with (as he says) terapeutic pourpouses.
I think in the past he was a very good martialist, however he doesn't teach any more because he is a fat old man; all his valid students/teachers are gone away: someone because wasn't blind, someone else because asked too much about the origin of this kung fu: Bonocore dismisses who doubt his words. My teacher was dismissed because he refused to enter in the Avalon Centre like student. Bonocore didn't do anythig for us, now without teacher, neither an e-mail, he abandoned us, The Great Master!!!
I think Bonocore's Tao Lung is a lie, he invented it.
thanks
ernesto

P.S. the internet site from switzerland reguard probably the school opened by a Bonocore's student who left italy same years ago, he is a good person




Hi, I am Francesca, from Rome, Italy.
Regarding this post I would like to give my opinion about Ivano Bonocore and Tao Lung.
I've been practicing Tao Lung for the past 5 years and I can say that my experience is simply wonderful: I enjoy myself and have a great time excercising, especially when, three years ago, I changed Sifu (instructor). I now train with the eldest Bonocore's student, Alessio Savarino: I can say that my love for Kung Fu Tao Lung began exactly at this point.
I have fun, I can experience joy, love and peace while training, not to mention respect for myself and my fellow traineers.
Since then, I have learnt values that help me in my everyday life: it's almost 4 years now that I study, under the loving teachings of Ivano Bonocore, in Avalon, which is the cultural and phylosophical background of Tao Lung. My life has changed in many ways since then: I feel more grown up, responsible and caring for others than I was before.
All I can say, is Thank You Ivano, Elisabetta, Alessio and all of you who help me being myself through love, peace, well being and uniqueness.
Tao Lung is not only kung fu, for me it's all this and much more. :)

[aplonis]

I have asked one of my senior teachers of Buddhism who is a native Tibetan about Tibetan MA's. ... He said very clearly that "if there was such a thing as Tibetan Martial Arts" he would have heard of it" because all during his youth he wanted to study these physical arts.

I too am a student of Tibetan Buddhism for many years. My teacher is former abbot of a different monastery in a different order and different region of Tibet. And he too enjoys to study physical arts, Aikido in his case. And he too says very emphaticallly there are no native Tibetan martial arts. Not even their monastery police learnt such an art. They were chosen for size and carried big sticks and that was the extent of it.

Why is this so? Until World War 1, the rise of first modern Russia then modern China...there was no one at all whom the Tibetans needed to fight against.

Tibetan MA's are about as tibetan as himalayan cat breeds. It has been a thousand years since tibetans were known for their martial traditions. Nor was there any military status quo in place to suppress such traditions. They were, quite simply, discarded out of total disinterest.

There are, however, chinese traditions invented by chinese who studied Buddhism, not MA, inside Tibet. Monks went to study in Tibet from all over the Buddhist world. Mongols flocked in droves to Gomang monastery to study. And many tibetans went into China to teach. Any MA connection as may very tenuously exist comes from China. The White Crane Kung Fu tradition claims exactly this connection in one recent doc which I read.

[Sochin]

Quote from post #10:

Also, Liu He Ba Fa literally means, “six combinations eight methods.” it is one of the Chinese internal martial arts, its techniques are combined from Taijiquan, Xingyi and Baguazhang, created by Chen Bo between 960-1279 A.D.

It is my understanding that Bagua Zhang is only a couple of hundred years old at best...don't believe everything you read.