Children and grades

[ppko]

What are the steps you guys/gals take when a student continues to recieve bad grades. How do you go about trying to get them to get better grades without losing a student.

Joe Morris

[Andrew Green]

What are the steps you guys/gals take when a student continues to recieve bad grades. How do you go about trying to get them to get better grades without losing a student.

Joe Morris


Ok, maybe I just don't get this. But we teach Martial Arts, shouldn't that be between the school and the parents?

How about the students you loose because they feel it's not at all within a martial arts instructors right to require you to show them school report cards?

Parents raise kids, school teachers teach school. We teach martial arts, we do not do the other two.

[ppko]

Ok, maybe I just don't get this. But we teach Martial Arts, shouldn't that be between the school and the parents?

How about the students you loose because they feel it's not at all within a martial arts instructors right to require you to show them school report cards?

Parents raise kids, school teachers teach school. We teach martial arts, we do not do the other two.
Yes but by teaching Martial Arts we also incorporate discipline and is it our moral obligation to make sure our kids are doing there best no matter what they do.

Thank You
Joe Morris

[Don Davies]

Yes but by teaching Martial Arts we also incorporate discipline and is it our moral obligation to make sure our kids are doing there best no matter what they do.

Thank You
Joe Morris

It should be the parents moral obligation to make sure they are doing there best.

If a parent pulls there kid out of MA because they think it's the MA teachers fault that they aren't getting good grades they are placing blame on the wrong person.

[Andrew Green]

Yes but by teaching Martial Arts we also incorporate discipline and is it our moral obligation to make sure our kids are doing there best no matter what they do.

Thank You
Joe Morris

No it isn't.

Do you require your adults to show you there performance reviews from work?

Do you not think there is a code of conduct in every other sport?

Martial arts teachers like to think they are above everyone else, but we aren't.

[Jeff Burger]

You NEED a report card that says your passing all classes to go for promotions in our school.

I recommend to parents that if grades drop take away karate classes until they have improved.

We may require some students to improve in some grades.
Example......
We have a student is is very talented and bright.
But she is a bit of a smart ***. All her grades were good except conduct.
We told her it had to improve in order to test for rank.
It did so no problems.

Jeff

[Sgathak]

Thread drift alert!!!


We have a student is is very talented and bright.
But she is a bit of a smart ***. All her grades were good except conduct


This just kills me about the modern school system... grades for conduct? Personally, I think that if a kid is gettig straght A's (or even B's), is working hard, and is doing what needs done, then the school system shouldnt be trying to hold them back because of their personality. If the kid is misbehaving in class, they get to sit out... if they work to get the info/classwork taken care of to maintain their grades then good for them, if not then the kid didnt want it anyway and their grades will reflect that. The kid will either figure out that you have to sit down and shut up and do the work, or their grades go down. Easy.

Back on topic.........

Regarding a Martial Arts teacher thinking that the students grades should be open to them... I disagree. Unless your program is part of the school, then what the student is doing in your classes is EXTRA. Your not giving them grades that go towards their school success. Its not your job to be their Social Studies teacher, their school Principal, or their Parents. Your not their moral compass either... You were hired by the kid/'s parents to impart your knowledge, a task you agreed to when you accepted the money.

Now, being a teacher allows you to also be a role model... You can show them how to be the person you hope them to be. Give them encouragement to do their best. Teach them to take responsibility for their actions. But you dont have the right to say "well, your grades in ABC are bad, so Im going to punish you by not allowing you to do XYZ". Its not your job. Their teachers in school dont say "sorry Jimmy, you failed phys ed so we arnt going to let you take your geography final this term, even though we just KNOW you could do it" do they? Nope, and the school board, if not the parents, would have them on a pike for it! Which is something Im personally very grateful for... I can literally memorize pages from a history book just by reading it once, but I cant do math to save my soul. If having good grades in math were a requirment for me to continue doing something I loved... yes I would have put out the effort, at the extreme detriment to everything else, and eventually would have had to drop out of sports all together simply because everything else had dropped to D's and F's (and trust me, stuff like this happens, Ive got transcripts to prove it)

So anyway, teach your students how to be good people, encourage them in their efforts, show them how to reach their goals... you dont need to see what their reading grades are like, or take on the responsibility of their reading teacher (or worse yet! Parent!) to do this though!

[ppko]

You NEED a report card that says your passing all classes to go for promotions in our school.

I recommend to parents that if grades drop take away karate classes until they have improved.

We may require some students to improve in some grades.
Example......
We have a student is is very talented and bright.
But she is a bit of a smart ***. All her grades were good except conduct.
We told her it had to improve in order to test for rank.
It did so no problems.

Jeff
I have to agree with you Jeff if the parent doesn't want think there kid is doing good I also wouldn't promote them.

Joe Morris

[ppko]

Thread drift alert!!!



This just kills me about the modern school system... grades for conduct? Personally, I think that if a kid is gettig straght A's (or even B's), is working hard, and is doing what needs done, then the school system shouldnt be trying to hold them back because of their personality. If the kid is misbehaving in class, they get to sit out... if they work to get the info/classwork taken care of to maintain their grades then good for them, if not then the kid didnt want it anyway and their grades will reflect that. The kid will either figure out that you have to sit down and shut up and do the work, or their grades go down. Easy.

Back on topic.........

Regarding a Martial Arts teacher thinking that the students grades should be open to them... I disagree. Unless your program is part of the school, then what the student is doing in your classes is EXTRA. Your not giving them grades that go towards their school success. Its not your job to be their Social Studies teacher, their school Principal, or their Parents. Your not their moral compass either... You were hired by the kid/'s parents to impart your knowledge, a task you agreed to when you accepted the money.

Now, being a teacher allows you to also be a role model... You can show them how to be the person you hope them to be. Give them encouragement to do their best. Teach them to take responsibility for their actions. But you dont have the right to say "well, your grades in ABC are bad, so Im going to punish you by not allowing you to do XYZ". Its not your job. Their teachers in school dont say "sorry Jimmy, you failed phys ed so we arnt going to let you take your geography final this term, even though we just KNOW you could do it" do they? Nope, and the school board, if not the parents, would have them on a pike for it! Which is something Im personally very grateful for... I can literally memorize pages from a history book just by reading it once, but I cant do math to save my soul. If having good grades in math were a requirment for me to continue doing something I loved... yes I would have put out the effort, at the extreme detriment to everything else, and eventually would have had to drop out of sports all together simply because everything else had dropped to D's and F's (and trust me, stuff like this happens, Ive got transcripts to prove it)

So anyway, teach your students how to be good people, encourage them in their efforts, show them how to reach their goals... you dont need to see what their reading grades are like, or take on the responsibility of their reading teacher (or worse yet! Parent!) to do this though!
A great post, and argument you have put on, but I would have to disagree only because my wife is a teacher and she knows how these kids are (in school) and after discussing this with her it is to the best benefit of the kid. If the parent and the school is not willing to take action then we could have a conferance with the family encourage the kid, but if things don't improve than its in the best interest of the child to leave the MA's and concentrate more on studying. It is just like if you have an adult that continues to break the law outside of the dojo you would not continue to train them either, but you would give them a few chances.

Joe Morris

P.S. I realize the severity of the two are totally different it is just to give an argument.

[ipscshooter]

This just kills me about the modern school system... grades for conduct? Personally, I think that if a kid is gettig straght A's (or even B's), is working hard, and is doing what needs done, then the school system shouldnt be trying to hold them back because of their personality. If the kid is misbehaving in class, they get to sit out... if they work to get the info/classwork taken care of to maintain their grades then good for them, if not then the kid didnt want it anyway and their grades will reflect that. The kid will either figure out that you have to sit down and shut up and do the work, or their grades go down. Easy.The schools don't "hold kids back" because of a conduct grade, at least not here in Houston. The curriculum is graded on an point/letter grade scale, i.e. 90-100 = A, 80-89 = B, 75-79 = C, 70-74 = D and 0-69 = F. Things like conduct, handwriting, effectively using class time, completing homework, etc., gets rated on a different scale and is not considered in connection with grade point average, grade level promotions, honor roll, etc. These "grades" are E (excellent), S (satisfactory), N (needs improvement), and U (unsatisfactory).

Our TKD instructor doesn't ask to see report cards, but, the kids can voluntarily bring them in. If they make all A's and B's, they can choose from a bag full of small patches. If they make grades three semesters in a row, they can choose from some larger patches.

[Sgathak]

The schools don't "hold kids back" because of a conduct grade, at least not here in Houston. The curriculum is graded on an point/letter grade scale, i.e. 90-100 = A, 80-89 = B, 75-79 = C, 70-74 = D and 0-69 = F. Things like conduct, handwriting, effectively using class time, completing homework, etc., gets rated on a different scale and is not considered in connection with grade point average, grade level promotions, honor roll, etc. These "grades" are E (excellent), S (satisfactory), N (needs improvement), and U (unsatisfactory).

Then whats the point? To tell the child that they have bad handwriting? Teachers dont have enough to do educating children in over filled classes without having to assess the child on how well they do at XYZ non-educational aspect?

Im sorry but I disagree with this immensly. If a child isnt turning in homework, they dont get credit for that work until/unless it gets turned in. Easy nuff. They dont need to see an "N" on "turns in homework" to know that they missed turning in some homework... do they? Doesnt the big round "D" say they same thing? If their work is that shoddy, shouldnt the time saved by NOT assessing the child on intangibles be spent WITH the child developing good habits?

I attended school when they first started working this stuff into grading systems... things may (and probably have) changed since then because of kids like me. I was an excellent student until 6th grade (with the exception of math, of course) and then when they started giving grades for the intangibles my grads dropped literally from A's to F's... Attention in class was a big problem. Especially in reading, history, etc... I was reading (and understanding) Last of the Mohicans in 4th grade, I was an excellent reader with a monumental vocabulary, so when I finished my chapter from Judy Blumes "SuperFudge" or whatever the drivel was for the month I would draw or read what I wanted to read (one semester I even made a written codex based on ideograms, not exactly 4th grade stuff)... I had an average grade in reading of over 95%. Guess who ended up with a 40% overall grade in the class the year they started this?

As I think Ive made clear enough, I disagree with the idea of grading things like attention, conduct, or handwriting.

And as I said when I originally brought this up, its thread drift, and my opinion based on my experiences.

[ipscshooter]

I attended school when they first started working this stuff into grading systems... things may (and probably have) changed since then because of kids like me. I was an excellent student until 6th grade (with the exception of math, of course) and then when they started giving grades for the intangibles my grads dropped literally from A's to F's... Attention in class was a big problem. Especially in reading, history, etc... I was reading (and understanding) Last of the Mohicans in 4th grade, I was an excellent reader with a monumental vocabulary, so when I finished my chapter from Judy Blumes "SuperFudge" or whatever the drivel was for the month I would draw or read what I wanted to read (one semester I even made a written codex based on ideograms, not exactly 4th grade stuff)... I had an average grade in reading of over 95%. Guess who ended up with a 40% overall grade in the class the year they started this?
I'm not sure when or where you went to school, but I can recall receiving "grades" on this stuff in Illinois public schools in the early 1960's. And, my kids have been getting these "grades" since the mid 80's here in Texas public schools. At least if the systems I have seen are being used, I fail to see how these marks have anything to do with your reading grade, etc. The "grades for intangibles" are NOT factored in with your substantive grades. They have no impact at all on your grade point average, etc.

To answer a couple of your substantive questions... There are a few reasons for the intangibles marks. For whatever reason (and I'm not saying it's right), schools are engaging not just in education these days, but also socialization. Hence, we have marks for "works and plays well with others" and "follows classroom rules", etc. No, a "D" doesn't do the same thing as an N in "turns in homework", or "effectively uses class time". The D gives the grade. The N may give some indication as to the reason for the D. Some of the things rated can help give parents an idea of things they should be focusing on to help their kids advance. There's more to being a good student than just making A's on your tests. We don't live in a world that bases all future success on the kind of grades you make (although grades are a big part of it). A kid can have straight A's but, if he has zero social skills, he's going to have problems.

[Sgathak]

This is a fairly useless discussion as, quite frankly, Im not on any school boards nor do I wish to be. The school system here played its games and did its damage well enough... luckily I came out only slightly bitter.

Have a good day.

[Jeff Burger]

I dont feel its a drift.

So far we have not had to hold anyone back on a promotion because of bad grades.
I dont kick students out because of bad grades. Thats the parents decision and its up to them to see any circumstances involved in the bad grades.

We have access to tutoring for students who need it.

The dojo is a low consequence place to learn some of lifes hard lessons.
By low consequence I mean if they are doing poorly they dont get promoted or maybe do some push ups or horse stance.
Its not family, career ....

As far as parent taking a student out, MA training is a luxury and school is a priority. If a parent feels MA training is taking away from homework time or feels its a good leverage point to get good effort Im more than ok with that.
Same as I may pull any other sport or leisure activity.

I have had a few cases when a parent approached me with their child to say homework is not getting done so if things dont change we might not see them for awhile.
So far just that has beeen enough to light a fire under their butt.

While Im saying MA is a luxury I also wish some was mandatory in school.
At a young age abduction prevention / awareness and as they get older some simple self defense skills.
Id like to see knowing how to swim a mandatory skill for graduation as its a life saving skill.

Demanding grades ( tangible or not) I would throw into "Do" art category. And a good aspect of it.
Im not teaching kids how to tear up other people, Im teaching them to better themselves so IMHO grades matter.

Conduct may not be tangible but it matters...ALOT.
If a kid goes from a A to a C its probably because they are misbehaving.

We want people to see positive changes in our youth students.
As a non profit our kids do some community service stuff clean up parks, do demos at fund rasiers ( ours an others) .....
We talk about behaving at home, doing homework or chores when your told, doing what their told in general, maybe taking on more chores, shovleing out a elderly neighbor...
First outside responsibilty I tell parents and kids is their gi.
Dont come to me and say mommy didnt pack my gi or my belt or my pants cause mommy doesnt take karate ( if she doesnt she doesnt wear your gi).
Just do your push ups for it and get in line.
I almost never have to tell students to do push ups for being late or not having their gi or gi parts. After 1 or 2 times they just know.
I tell parents is let them wash their own gi. They got to learn to do laundry someday.

Dont put expectation levels on people and they wont reach them.
Give them expectaction levels and they usually will go beyond them.
So far our most of our kids have really soaked up this type of discipline. Most want to do a good job and the feeling they get from it and going beyond is great for them.

Jeff

[ppko]

I dont feel its a drift.

So far we have not had to hold anyone back on a promotion because of bad grades.
I dont kick students out because of bad grades. Thats the parents decision and its up to them to see any circumstances involved in the bad grades.

We have access to tutoring for students who need it.

The dojo is a low consequence place to learn some of lifes hard lessons.
By low consequence I mean if they are doing poorly they dont get promoted or maybe do some push ups or horse stance.
Its not family, career ....

As far as parent taking a student out, MA training is a luxury and school is a priority. If a parent feels MA training is taking away from homework time or feels its a good leverage point to get good effort Im more than ok with that.
Same as I may pull any other sport or leisure activity.

I have had a few cases when a parent approached me with their child to say homework is not getting done so if things dont change we might not see them for awhile.
So far just that has beeen enough to light a fire under their butt.

While Im saying MA is a luxury I also wish some was mandatory in school.
At a young age abduction prevention / awareness and as they get older some simple self defense skills.
Id like to see knowing how to swim a mandatory skill for graduation as its a life saving skill.

Demanding grades ( tangible or not) I would throw into "Do" art category. And a good aspect of it.
Im not teaching kids how to tear up other people, Im teaching them to better themselves so IMHO grades matter.

Conduct may not be tangible but it matters...ALOT.
If a kid goes from a A to a C its probably because they are misbehaving.

We want people to see positive changes in our youth students.
As a non profit our kids do some community service stuff clean up parks, do demos at fund rasiers ( ours an others) .....
We talk about behaving at home, doing homework or chores when your told, doing what their told in general, maybe taking on more chores, shovleing out a elderly neighbor...
First outside responsibilty I tell parents and kids is their gi.
Dont come to me and say mommy didnt pack my gi or my belt or my pants cause mommy doesnt take karate ( if she doesnt she doesnt wear your gi).
Just do your push ups for it and get in line.
I almost never have to tell students to do push ups for being late or not having their gi or gi parts. After 1 or 2 times they just know.
I tell parents is let them wash their own gi. They got to learn to do laundry someday.

Dont put expectation levels on people and they wont reach them.
Give them expectaction levels and they usually will go beyond them.
So far our most of our kids have really soaked up this type of discipline. Most want to do a good job and the feeling they get from it and going beyond is great for them.

Jeff
A great post thank you for some of your great ideas I will deffinately impliment them into my school.

Joe Morris

[Oz82]

While Im saying MA is a luxury I also wish some was mandatory in school.
At a young age abduction prevention / awareness and as they get older some simple self defense skills.Jeff

Thread hijack, I know, but I so agree with this statement. I've threatened my boys with death and worse :wink2: if I catch them showing off what they learned from the dojo at school, but I've made exception with the escape techniques. I've actively encouraged them to teach them to as many of their friends as will listen, and promised to back them up in the office if some zero-tolerance hippy teacher gets upset about it.

But in reference to the real subject here, my boys seem to be able to bring those grades right up when their dojo time is threatened. However, threatening Playstation time is much more effective :rolleyes:, and I doubt they will ever be hurt by missing a moment of Spyro the Dragon. I do beleive that it would be detrimental to them to miss dojo time.

I have only held them out of class once, and it was an attitude problem :mad: that didn't need to be brought to the tatami. Since then, there hasn't been much attitude difficulty.

[ppko]

Thread hijack, I know, but I so agree with this statement. I've threatened my boys with death and worse :wink2: if I catch them showing off what they learned from the dojo at school, but I've made exception with the escape techniques. I've actively encouraged them to teach them to as many of their friends as will listen, and promised to back them up in the office if some zero-tolerance hippy teacher gets upset about it.

But in reference to the real subject here, my boys seem to be able to bring those grades right up when their dojo time is threatened. However, threatening Playstation time is much more effective :rolleyes:, and I doubt they will ever be hurt by missing a moment of Spyro the Dragon. I do beleive that it would be detrimental to them to miss dojo time.

I have only held them out of class once, and it was an attitude problem :mad: that didn't need to be brought to the tatami. Since then, there hasn't been much attitude difficulty.
A great post I welcome anymore oppinions you have on this subject.

Joe Morris