Would you leave your school if contracts were required?

[Jen]

I'll explain the situation to make it more clear.
Tonight I overheard from another student (who is privy to more information then I am by being an assistant instructor) that we might start having contracts beginning next year. This was in a conversation with one of the children's parents. I happened to be sitting around and heard it. This mother said her son would quit if it were required. He's been going at least a year and half, possibly two years, they pay on time. The reason for contracts was stated as too many people paying late. This person who said there might be contracts coming then said that she has paid late before, but has always told our instructor about it if it would be the case. That's not a problem, but people who pay late and don't even bother to let him know I would assume is the problem. I've been a student for a little over two years, and have never made a late payment. We get slips when the payment is due, and I always bring my check the next class.
Some people are on single month payment plans, others 3, 6, and 12 month. I have a 3 month payment plan. I was previously in a contract school. A year into my 2 year contract, the management changed, 6 months later a new instructor came in and it was a new style. I hated the last 6 months there. I don't ever want to be stuck like that again.
I like where I am at, and I don't want to switch to something else again. However, I don't want to be stuck because of a contract if I decide I don't like it anymore because things change.
So, would you start looking for somewhere else (I know quitting altogether is not an option), or stay and hope everything remains alright? I would of course discuss with my instructor that I do not want to be on a contract if it becomes a reality, or if I hear more serious talk about, but I am trying to consider my plan if an exception wouldn't be made. My hope first is that it isn't true, and if it is true, that enough good paying students will voice a concern about it. If that doesn't happen, what is your suggestion on what to do? Do I stay or do I go?

[nosh276]

We have contracts and a billing company. It's really not that big of a deal. It helps out alot with organization and funding.

[Andrew Green]

It is a business, with overhead. Contracts are probably something you should already be on.

If your worried about that ask for some conditions.

ex - Change of main instructor gives you the option to cancel.

Major changes to curriculum / schedule.

You could also suggest an alternative. Instead of signing to a term require so many days notice to quit. Have a start up fee to prevent people coming and going. A holding fee for long vacations. etc.

But if you where to join a gym you would probably be on a contract as well, and a martial arts school is a gym. Other sports Teams require you to sign on for a full season.

[tkdcanada]

I disagree with contracts completely. Life is demanding enough without having to make commitments with respect to past-times. We all make personal commitments and goals...for OURSELVES, but as soon as you have to commit to someone ELSE for an extended amount of time, it crosses the line. The alternative is very easy: you don't pay on time, you don't train and you must wait until the next month to rejoin..plain and simple.

[Mandeigh Wells]

I disagree with contracts completely. Life is demanding enough without having to make commitments with respect to past-times. We all make personal commitments and goals...for OURSELVES, but as soon as you have to commit to someone ELSE for an extended amount of time, it crosses the line. I am going to give the other side of the coin for this. As a full time instructor trying to scrape a living out of teaching, there is nothing more soul destroying that to give a 100% committment to your students and for them to make no commitment to the instructor/school. I have had times when I have turned up to class and many of the students have decided they have something better to do that night and don't appear.....well that has left me paying the hall rent out of my own pocket, no wage for teaching, then there is the advertising costs the travel, the preparation time, Insurance etc.


have to commit to someone ELSE for an extended amount of time, it crosses the line. this is called a student/teacher relationship......its about you show your committment to me, by paying your dues and my committment to you is to teach you and pay all the bills.

Many places have gone onto contracts as a way of holding onto students a bit longer and to squeeze a bit of cash out of them.....but many more have adopted this method because there are enough students who do not appreciate what it takes to get a class together to give them their 'past-time'

Mandeigh

[Ewok85]

I'd say yes, but to be fair my teachers dont teach it to make a living. If I do have to pay for lessons and I'm unable to I talk it over or have a 'holiday' ;)

[sean_stonehart]

It depends on the contents of the contract. Normally no because I understand somebody trying ensure they're paid for what they teach.

However I do know of one system that has a contract that you're required to sign that says among other things:


You'll never learn past level "X" since you're not family, no matter how good you are
You are required to buy all weapons through the school or pay a 115% fine when you're seen with it
Uniforms... see above


So ... it depends ....

[Jeff Burger]

I just opened a full time school last December.
Starting in September I will offer contract and no contract ( no contract being more exspensive).

Here is why....
I contacted people to get some feedback as to why the quit.
The #1 reason by far went something like this....
"well I missed a couple of days / first week of the month so I thought Id just sign up the next month. Then when the next month came I figured I was too far behind".

I had to sign contract with the landlord to have the place.
Im not going to make contract mandatory but like I said no contract is going to cost more.

I always wanted a full time school and now that I got one its more headache than blessing.

Jeff

[Mandeigh Wells]

I always wanted a full time school and now that I got one its more headache than blessing. :laugh: welcom to the fickle world of martial arts students!


You'll never learn past level "X" since you're not family, no matter how good you are You are required to buy all weapons through the school or pay a 115% fine when you're seen with it Uniforms... see above sounds more like a cult when they start putting this kind of stuff on you....

Mandeigh

[RobP]

I think annual contracts would not go down too well inthe UK - though I do have one student that pays an annual fee.

What I have found works best is either students paying monthly by standing order - I give them a form, they fill in the details and take it to their bank - or people buy a block of lessons (they get a card which is ticked each time they attend).

People paying per lesson is a pain - do they pay at the start or end of class, people turn up late, leave early, you have to check everyone has paid, etc. As well as the problems Mandeigh mentioned - what with Wimbledon, the football, summer holidays, my dog is sick, etc you can end up with very low numbers even though you have a large student base.

[sean_stonehart]

sounds more like a cult when they start putting this kind of stuff on you....

Mandeigh

One would think that huh? :up:

It's my understanding that you don't get "hit" with the contract until after your first or maybe second grading. By then you've pretty much decided to stay or go at that point.

My sifu left the organization & style all together because of it. He was about to take "the test" where he would've been earned the title Sifu & all that good junk when the contract was first put together & came out. He read it, packed his stuff & never looked back. The organization is/was (depending on perspective) pretty well respected, but after that, there was a quiet shake up in the ranks I hear.

Contracts can be a good thing to both parties if it's done right, but in the context of the one I mentioned... nobody but the school wins & the student is at a total loss.

[tkdcanada]

.........I have had times when I have turned up to class and many of the students have decided they have something better to do that night and don't appear.....well that has left me paying the hall rent out of my own pocket, no wage for teaching, then there is the advertising costs the travel, the preparation time, Insurance etc..................

this is called a student/teacher relationship......its about you show your committment to me, by paying your dues and my committment to you is to teach you and pay all the bills.

Many places have gone onto contracts as a way of holding onto students a bit longer and to squeeze a bit of cash out of them.....but many more have adopted this method because there are enough students who do not appreciate what it takes to get a class together to give them their 'past-time'

Mandeigh

I generally agree with your ideology, but my point is that it shouldn't be forced. Either the student will be a committed student, or not and it should come naturally. If people pay at the beginning of each month, then the bills are paid whether they show up or not. Committed students will pay on time, without a contract and this is a better student/teacher relationship than forcing a contract on people just to make sure your bills are paid for six months or whatever. I pay monthly, on my own, without being told, and am probably one of the most committed students you will find, and I would resent not having the option to take that responsibility UPON MYSELF each month.

As far as the students who don't appreciate what it takes, and who aren't committed enough to get it togethe without a contract, do you really want that kind of student anyway?

[tkdcanada]

oops, double post.

[SteyrAUG]

Yes, and I have before.

Even more to the point I left one school where I was one of the more senior instructors when they adopted the practice.

It has been my expereinece that the schools that need contracts are the ones who have nothing else with which to retain their students.

The standard SOP of the McDojo is "new contacts" which means new students. New students are constantly required because they don't teach anything of value to keep the interest of old students. So to keep the money flow they essentially hold them hostage with a contract. I don't care when this is done with gym memberships, but when the traditions of the martial arts are pimped out in this fashion I find it personally offensive.

I long ago quite trying to support myslef through the instruction of martial arts. I was constantly having to compromise my teaching and methods in order to "pay the bills." Since it wasn't being taught correctly anyway I simply stopped.

Now I teach for the sake of teaching. I have students who on average have been with me 10 years or more. I am not looking for any new students. Honestly new students are something of a burden and they have to be rather promising for me to consider one.

If a student ever decides I have nothing of value to offer them they are free to leave at any time. The door is over there. I find the idea that they must stay because of a contract ridiculous and offensive.

[SteyrAUG]

I am going to give the other side of the coin for this. As a full time instructor trying to scrape a living out of teaching, there is nothing more soul destroying that to give a 100% committment to your students and for them to make no commitment to the instructor/school. I have had times when I have turned up to class and many of the students have decided they have something better to do that night and don't appear.....well that has left me paying the hall rent out of my own pocket, no wage for teaching, then there is the advertising costs the travel, the preparation time, Insurance etc.

They do not value your instruction and you should dismiss them. I would. If you don't have enough dedicated students to support the hall you should close it. If you don't earn enough income to support yourself you should do something else.



this is called a student/teacher relationship......its about you show your committment to me, by paying your dues and my committment to you is to teach you and pay all the bills.

I don't recall the financial obligations of the kohai/sempai relationship. Honestly the martial traditions do not exist to pay your bills. The student/teacher relationship is this (You teach and they learn). You should carefully screen any prospective students for dedication. If your teachings are not serious enough to attract serious students you should stop. If you accept stuidents that are not serious, don't be surpised when they go to the movies instead.

[jjaje]

Im not going to make contract mandatory but like I said no contract is going to cost more.

I always wanted a full time school and now that I got one its more headache than blessing.

Jeff

Jeff,

This is a good idea. We do something similar. While there is no contract, you can pre-pay to have reduced costs.

If you pay week to week it is one cost. You can pay 3 months, 6 months or 1 year in advance. There are cost benefits for each pre-payment length. However, there is still no contract - so if you stop coming - no refund.

The downside to this is that not everyone has the $$ available to pre-pay like that.
The plus side is that since I prepaid, I am pretty committed to getting my moneys worth.
Even with a contract, if they don't prepay, you still have to collect, it's just that the honorable students will honor the contract.

[tkdcanada]

I give post-dated cheques. It works great, I don't forget and I decide how many to give, etc.... I serious student will be responsible enough to stay on top of it and if they aren't they aren't worth teaching, as Richard said.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Honestly the martial traditions do not exist to pay your bills. actually similar relationships have exsisted throughout MA history....there was a time when the student actually looked after the master, worked for them etc. This is Britain in the 21st century, we all feel that we have somthing of value to teach, but not every student sees it that way due to the western culture of everything can be bought. Many of my students are elderly and some are unemployed, they are not judged on whther they can pay or not, but if they want a nice warm hall to train in, the rent has to be paid end of story, I need to put fuel in my car to get there, there are other over heads which need to be paid. The class at the very least must be self supporting,


If you don't have enough dedicated students to support the hall you should close it why? Its a small town, don't those who are dedicated deserve to have a class?


If you don't earn enough income to support yourself you should do something else. I actually gave up quite alot in order to run the school and give people the chance to learn the art....when the students pay on time there is enough money, unfortunately not everyone is like TKDCanada and pays on time, thats why a I introduced a different payment scheme.

Not all contracts are bad is the bottom line.


It has been my expereinece that the schools that need contracts are the ones who have nothing else with which to retain their students. sorry you have had a bad experience.

I haven't compromised my teaching because of making a living out of my art...infact it has made me study more, go further afield to get better coaching for myself and actually raised my game.........

Mandeigh

[Akuma]

We don't have contracts at our school, but I would not have a problem having one. Primarily, because I feel that it is my responsibility to support my school and my instructors by being a reliable student, coming to class on a regular basis and paying on time. I want my school to continue to be successful, and any way that I can contribute to that, I will do my best to try. If I am ever lucky enough to teach one day, I would hope that my students felt the same way.

[Paul B]

I am soooo with Mandeigh on this one...

If your instructor teaches a MA for a living, I think contracts are justified,being a dependable source of income,however,if you instructor does this "on the side" as a hobby, I don't think that a contract is necessary, with the Dojo or practice hall then being relegated to a "common ground" type of atmosphere, where everyone pays a small fee, just to keep the lights and heat on! My Aikido teacher has this latter type of Dojo, with fees at 40$, just to pay for rent, etc...My Hapkido and Kosho teachers are "proffesionals",this is their bread and butter,so to speak, and they both have contracts to train, but they didn't push them on me..which is the point a lot of people seem to take exception to(myself included). This is my veiwpoint,anything that has good points can be taken and twisted into a negative, but it doesn't make it intrinsically good or bad, it just is one tool to use,and it's up to the Teachers how it's used.That's my 2 c's.

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

[black-gi]

Absolutly not! if I was there like a couple of months....Maybe but if price didnt change and i liked it no I wouldn't



Jason Bryant

[Carl Martin]

There is a third option that my school uses. All you sign up for is to have the monthly fee to be automatically debited from your checking account. It continues to do that until the student decides to stop coming. If the student wants to quit there are some buisness cards sitting out that have the number to call. Our instructor has no control over it.

This has had a couple of really nice benefits. First, it's now more of a pain to stop the automatic payment for a couple of days than to just let it go through. So everyone pays ontime. I'm kind of forgetful anyway and collecting from me wouldn't difficult if it wasn't for that. I assume others would forget to pay on time too but now that's not a concern. The other benefit is that we now get to start class on time rather than wait for our instructor to chase down all the deliquent students and parents.

I think it pretty well solves most problems.

[SteyrAUG]

actually similar relationships have exsisted throughout MA history....there was a time when the student actually looked after the master, worked for them etc.

Well yes but the martial arts were exactly a sold commodity either. If a teacher were talented (or famous) enough he might be sponsored. If he had a large enough following his students would provide a place. But the student/teacher relationship in those cases were far more personal.



This is Britain in the 21st century, we all feel that we have somthing of value to teach, but not every student sees it that way due to the western culture of everything can be bought. Many of my students are elderly and some are unemployed, they are not judged on whther they can pay or not, but if they want a nice warm hall to train in, the rent has to be paid end of story, I need to put fuel in my car to get there, there are other over heads which need to be paid. The class at the very least must be self supporting,

And there you have nailed it. The way you approach and present your teachings is as a "commodity." So your students treat it as such. You may honestly feel you do NOT offer the martial arts in that way, but you do.

I understand the necessities of life, and that is why I no longer teach in that fashion or make my livelihood dependent upon it.



why? Its a small town, don't those who are dedicated deserve to have a class?

Well like you said, if those few students can't support the hall, then who pays it?




I actually gave up quite alot in order to run the school and give people the chance to learn the art....when the students pay on time there is enough money, unfortunately not everyone is like TKDCanada and pays on time, thats why a I introduced a different payment scheme.

I understand. It is no easy living trying to sell martial arts instruction. Don't take this as harshly as it sounds but it isn't easy being an oceanographer, a Marine or a blacksmith. In those cases you are not even guaranteed a way to pay the bills. So you have to really decide if this is what you want to be doing for a living.



Not all contracts are bad is the bottom line.

The idea that a student is obligated to the teacher or school financially is bad. If the student does NOT wish to be there, you shouldn't want them.



sorry you have had a bad experience.

I wouldn't call it bad, I'd call it a learning experience.



I haven't compromised my teaching because of making a living out of my art...infact it has made me study more, go further afield to get better coaching for myself and actually raised my game.........

Mandeigh

Please don't take this the wrong way but what system do you study that you would refer to it as a "game"?

[SteyrAUG]

If your instructor teaches a MA for a living, I think contracts are justified,being a dependable source of income,however,if you instructor does this "on the side" as a hobby, I don't think that a contract is necessary, with the Dojo or practice hall then being relegated to a "common ground" type of atmosphere, where everyone pays a small fee, just to keep the lights and heat on!
Paul Bladen

For perspective this is why I teach.

I was fortunate enough to recieve correct instruction in authentic martial arts (quite a feat in the age of McDojos). I had enough natural ability and opportunity of time to train and become talented enough to progress within my chosen arts. My teachers provided me with continued instruction (and not always for money - in fact some of the best teachers I had would be insulted at the notion that their time could be paid for in cash) and knowledge.

As a consequence of accepting all of the above I incurred a debt of obligation to teach.

[Mandeigh Wells]

And there you have nailed it. The way you approach and present your teachings is as a "commodity." So your students treat it as such. actually no I don't....but I am realistic enough to understand that bills need to be paid, since leaving adult education where the art was open to all and sundry, I now have an albeit smaller but more enthusiastic student base and no longer the purple trouser or everything for nothing brigade. If anything I am now teaching better because I have the kind of students that I not only consider to be friends but also appreciate what I am giving them enough to stay and they also appreciate that I have to travel far afield to keep up my own training with high level teachers. All they have to do is pay their class dues on time........


If the student does NOT wish to be there, you shouldn't want them. if the student doesn't want to be there they tend to leave......I have no hold over them.


Please don't take this the wrong way but what system do you study that you would refer to it as a "game"? 'raising ones game' is a figure of speech, do you not have it in the US?

Mandeigh

[Sgathak]

If the student doesn't want to be there they tend to leave......I have no hold over them.

Isnt that the reason for the contract? To hold onto students regardlss of their feelings? I mean, if I make up a contract, and it says "you will attend classes 3 times a week for 12 months, and you will pay X amount per month for the duration of the contract, if you miss more than 3 classes per month, a surcharge of X amount will be added to that months required fees" is that not, by default, a way to have a hold on students? You require them to show up or charge them more, and dont allow them out of the contract for 12 months.

Granted, there are of course less strict contracts out there, but the point is, the contract is intended specificially and without question to hold onto students (or their money) even if they change their minds about the school.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Isnt that the reason for the contract? To hold onto students regardlss of their feelings? i don't know why don't you ask someone who has the kind of contract you are asking about.....

Our 'contract' is....class fees are paid monthly on the first of the month.....doesn't mean you cant walk at any time.......

Mandeigh

[Sgathak]

kinda snippy there?

I wouldnt consider what your talking about a "contract".

[Paul B]

There is a fine(blurry at best) line between what defines a "contract" and a "payment plan"

When a person hears "contract" what automatically associates with this is:

1.McDojo
2.Horrible Technique
3.No way out,save through litigation
4.Pay money for rank,buy your black belt or what have you.

This is simply not the case in all situations.I am sure that other people have been "burned" by a contract before,but all should not be held accountable for the actions of a few. I, personally, am in a "contract" now,it states I pay X amount on a X date, that's it,plain and simple. I don't feel now,nor when I signed that I "sold my soul". I went in knowing what I was getting into, and was prepared to see it through,because I love my Art and will NEVER stop practicing even when my contract is up,and I don't have any scheduled payments to make,save for annual membership fees to the Hanminjok Hapkido Org. in the amount of a whopping 29$. I can understand everyone's points. But try to remember the context in which opinions are stated.
Just because I have agreed to pay, my Teacher(s) don't own me,nor do they act like it. It is simply a matter of convieniance to them.

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

[Mandeigh Wells]

why snippy?

It illustrates my point that there are many kinds of contract...I don't know of anyone who has the kind that you describe...the closest thing is my payment scheme for insurance...I am bound to it for the year....

I do consider the monthly payment as a contract......thats what you agree to when you join the school.....

Mandeigh

[SteyrAUG]

if the student doesn't want to be there they tend to leave......I have no hold over them.

Then why contracts? That is basically what they are for. I have no problem with payment plans for schools that are commercially oriented. But contracts, in all cases I'm familiar with, exists simply to obligate a student to the school for the length of time stated in the contract.



'raising ones game' is a figure of speech, do you not have it in the US?

Mandeigh

Ok, wasn't sure. Just unaccustomed to serious martial artists using terms like "game" and "playing", that stuff is usually the domain of the TKD crowd. You struck me as the type who see's the arts as a "way of life" (which is why I'm somewhat critical) and the referrence to a "game" seemed odd.

[Jen]

I can see the point behind wanting contracts if you are the instructor. It puts more responsibility on the person paying the bill. We already have to pay in advance. You can choose the length of time you pay for, with a discount for choosing to pay for a longer period of time. When the period is up, you get a slip that says you owe payment again. I think we're supposed to get these a week in advance of that date. However, many times I don't get mine until the date the payment is due. This time I got mine Monday, the date marked as the time the late fee would be assessed. I'm not going to pay it though, as I wasn't given my slip until then. I suppose having a contract would put the responsibility on the students and parents to remember, and not on my instructor to distribute the slips.
I think my opinion on the contract system is based on my prior experience. I don't want to get stuck again.
I don't think I would be able to find anything at a price as low as what I pay in this area. New students do pay more, but it seems as though it's a common practice at least in this area for businesses to charge higher rates for new people. In the time i've been there i've only had a rate increase of $5 a month. I'd be hard pressed to find something in my area at the same or comparable price. Save on organization that my school used to be a member of. It'd be absolutely wrong to sign up with the instructor that my current one left. If I wanted to stay with the person, the proper time would have been when I was told that we were leaving the organization. I'm also not particularly fond of this man, so that's out of the question.
Jeff, the system you are planning of charging a higher price for students who won't go on a contract is something that wouldn't bother me. That sounds perfectly fair to me.

The possibility just puts me in a hard situation. Prior experience has left me wary of signing another contract. I don't want to start something new, i've done that a few times. Time and money are also issues. I'm just hope it doesn't happen, then I can stop worrying about it.

[Lisa]

We don't have contracts where I train but I do have my tuition set up to be automatically withdrawn from my account on a set day each month. This way, my school gets the money and can cover the bills, my tuition is always paid on time and I don't have to worry about making sure I write that check every month. Everyone is happy and we can concentrate on the more important things like training. I pay my tuition regardless of whether or not I am going to be attending for that full month or not. This is part or all of their living. I would not want my boss to ever come up to me and tell me he doesn't need me much this month so here take two weeks unpaid "holidays". I too have obligations to meet. Regardless of whether or not you are teaching to etch out a living or for the love of the art itself, most of the time there are expenses incurred with it and they are providing you a service so paying on time, everytime to me, is very important. That is just MHO. :)

[black-gi]

One of the clubs I used to train at actually did the same thing with automatic withdrawl which I think is a good idea as well as if you were wanting to quit you had to give them 3 months notice.. I think this is a good idea for contracts because it helps keep you a little more organized. However if there is a serious problem I think they should be let out of the contract immediatly if requested. (ie harrassment, personal problem with instructors, etc.)





Jason Bryant

[Ewok85]

The hardest I've ever trained was at a dojo where the teacher volunteered his time to teach. If i missed a lesson he'd chase me up and ask why and was always organizing extra training with other clubs. He'd look after students if they were sick or had issues and even offered me a job so I could stay and train with him. Lessons had a solid structure and they worked upon each one in order.

Meanwhile now that I'm paying per lesson the teacher isn't that bothered if I miss lessons and the lessons dont 'join up', some weeks we'll just do something with weapons, some weeks technique practice, some weeks just sparring.

[Jen]

Well, I know the details of it now. It would have been nice if we were referred to the letter put out the 21st of June about it. I don't think it would have been such a shock to me and the other person had we known the details.
Starting January 1st, all new students, and those who have had 2 or more late payment must sign an agreement to have their payment done through automatic transfer from the checking account. For current students in good standing, we can go under that plan if it's easier for us, or remain under the same payment plan we already have. So, as long as I continue to pay on time, this won't affect me unless I choose to have automatic withdrawal.
Lisa, I wouldn't expect not to pay as much if I wasn't going to show up for a week or two either. Now, if it were an entire month or longer, I might ask for a hold. It would depend on the reason. If i'm hurt for an extended period of time, and it keeps me from going to work, I think that would be a legitimate reason not to pay for that period of time. If I go away next summer for 4-6 weeks, I wouldn't expect to pay for the full month I am going. If I go 6 weeks, I would expect to pay in full for the month I would be in classes, even though it would only be for half the month. Also, if I go to a school where I am travelling to, I would offer to pay them, since I would be staying for more than a class or two. If I was taking a single class, my expectation would be that I would not be charged, unless it is a place that typically charges on a per class basis. If I take class with them a month, I would fully expect to pay for that month. If I stayed 6 weeks, and they had a monthly payment plan, I would fully expect to pay for the second month. So, I would be paying for that month in two places.