It's starting......

[Cliff Hargrave]

http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/systems/0,39001153,39186467,00.htm

[Erik]

That's really sinister.

Let's hope it remains visible and removable, like on wristbands or backpacks.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking, though? About surgical installation and/or mandatory use (like you cannot go certain places without a tracking chip)?

[Dennis Monk]

We have established a way to make your shopping easier. Simply have this microchip placed under the skin of your right hand or across your forehead. You will find this a much simpler way to make your transactions. If you don't like it, we will cut off your head.

[De_Franza]

...he loved Big Brother.
(shivers)

[Kiwi]

They should chip everybody and have every person tracked at all times via satellite so it can be proven where exactly you were at any given time, crime would all but disappear, any committed would have virtually no chance of going unpunished, sounds great to me, as long as it can be done in such a way that whatever method of reading the chip causes no interference with the cells of your body, or at least less than cell phones great, then people could pay the location police to tell them the whereabouts of their wife or husband if they get suspicious, alcoholics can`t lie about how long it`s been since they have been to a bar, insurance agencies can make verifiable cases in terms of increasing your premium because you go to MacDs every week, if you call in sick for the day the company can check,if Bin Laden needed to be found it would be a piece of cake......where is the problem?

[muaythaifreak]

That's the way we do things... Trade a little bit of your freedom for a little bit of false security. Hmmm.... seems like the anti gunners work in the same fashion. A little bit at a time. Next we'll have mini cams inserted into our eyes as well so that the government can see everything we do. Hey, next after that, lets just broadcast our thoughts directly to a mainframe computer in Washington, that way any one who even thinks of comitting a crime can be punished before hand. What next??? :confused: :confused: Ever heard of "personal freedom"?

[tkdcanada]

Kiwi, I hope you're joking! :eek:

[Kiwi]

Yes I was joking and no I don`t agree with anyone knowing what we do but as was pointed out it seems to be the way things go....on one hand we want freedom however, not everyone has the same idea of what those freedoms are.You have to bring in some form of policing, and basically where does it stop? The idea seems to be that if you can`t look after yourself then "we the people" will come up with a system that allows us to look after you, you are still free but some things need to be controlled.....that article is about a method that has been developed to control an increasing problem in Japan. I live here and speaking to many parents they are afraid of what their children are doing after school, the pedophilia here is a real problem and you could debate the why of that on another thread...the simple fact is some girls are prosituting themselves before they have left elementary school, its uncommon but happens, junior high is worse and then worse again is high school(they even have a word for it) Just go to Shibuya and you will see girls between 10 and 18 hanging out....plus many businessmen also enjoying the sights, in an article I read in the Japan Times about 6 months ago a 17 year old high school student said she was regularly propositioned.I have a mobile phone here and there are companies that randomly send text messages in the millions soliciting young girls to call up or mail(must be random because I get them)....many parents here have bought phones(unwisely IMO) for their children so that they can keep tabs on them, unfortunately they also provide a means of contact with some very undesirable elements. If you think it`s wrong to keep tabs on the whereabouts of people I agree, but this case was born from necessity, if we fast forward a bit and terrorism for example continues to increase, it would not surprise me if someone did put forward everyone should be chipped because of a need for security, I am hoping it won`t come to that and hopefully enough people won`t stand for it and it will never come about. To summarize I am sorry for the bad joke, I just want to point out the why it has come to this, and that really my joke may not be that far from a reality of the future.

[SteyrAUG]

What about tagging criminals and those who pose a threat instead of the kids?

[thebigj8]

I wouldn't be opposed to "tagging" violent felons.

[tkdcanada]

Kiwi, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive, but I really couldn't tell if you were serious or not. The whole thing's a very scary thought and IMO even tagging criminals opens the door to eventually tagging everyone. Afterall, you don't really know who is likely to become a criminal. No, I will take the risk of not knowing what criminals are doing if it means saving my own freedom.

[Kiwi]

Good point on tagging criminals and those who pose a threat to kids, I assume you are talking about the non removable type? What happens to the "poor pedophile" who finds Jesus, reads Barry Smiths "Warning" "Second Warning" and "Final Warning" trilogy and crys out he will go to hell, the Govt. is sending me there.....and then there is all the guys who have managed to dodge the police...at least thus far.
Unfortunately I think it(crime against children) happens a lot more than we like to imagine, and catching the criminal after he has been found in the area where a child was molested or abducted may not be too helpful to the child, setting up a kind of alarm that goes off if X number goes within X meters of a school is really not going to work, especially here where everything is close to everywhere. You could make the argument too that kids should be policed more by their parents not put on a big brother program, and that still has my vote, unfortunately with greedy companies demanding more here from employees the situation where both parents are working is becoming more prominent. I would bet that this case is being implemented in a junior high, honestly I don`t think this tagging will help all that much, many parents don`t have the time nor want to discipline their children, they work hard and when they come home they want to have a nice chat with their kids, most of the discipline for kids comes from their teachers, couple that with Japan being so lenient in school that it is illegal to suspend a child and of course corporal punishment is illegal also, all added up all I can say is I would not raise my children here. Kids know teachers can`t do anything and parents don`t want to or lack energy to, I am not making excuses here, it`s just the way it is. Back to the point I think Japan is trying its best and this after a long deliberation has been decided to be the best method........I don`t think keeping tabs on kids is such a bad idea myself, I didn`t have freedom when I was in school, I went to a boarding school and our whereabouts were policed very efficiently, sign back in within 20 min of school or sports practise finishing, if we wanted to go anywhere then we had to sign for that too, and it had to be a verifiable location.
Re reading I sound like I am griping...I guess I am, I see the problem but as it happens the world isn`t perfect and likely never will be.....anyone have any good ideas?

[Kiwi]

TKD no worries I agree with ya totally, I was trying to be inoffensive not defensive, and am just pointing things out, I certainly don`t have a perfect answer, actually I don`t think there is one, I just enjoy the thinking out loud thing, my father raised a point once, if you are not doing anything wrong, why do you care if someone knows exactly where you are or what you are doing? I agree in principal but not in reality, I mean, who gets all this info, where does it stop, it gets kind of Matrix-ish, and it may be that not always the information will be in good hands....would the President of America be exempt from a chip? How about all of congress? CIA agents? Anyway I will most likely be dead before it comes about.....how selfish I am.

[SteyrAUG]

Unfortunately I think it(crime against children) happens a lot more than we like to imagine, and catching the criminal after he has been found in the area where a child was molested or abducted may not be too helpful to the child

Honestly there are people who simply don't need to remain alive.

You know the argument that a person who would kill a cop is a greater threat to society because he has no social restraints? Well what about a person that would do something to a little kid? Is there really anything he wouldn't do?

Once you've kidnapped, raped or murdered a child you have gone far out of your way to prove you really don't deserve your life and honestly I don't think we should have to deal with the threat that person poses to our kids.

Also I think this is one of those things that is just not rehabilitable.

If you steal my car but later make amends and get a way to provide for yourself I can forgive you and trust you won't do it again. These are the kinds of criminals we should be concerned with helping.

But if you kidnapped a 8 year old kid, tortured him to death and had sex with the remains, well honestly even if you 'could' become a better person I don't feel you are entitled to the opportunity. You should simply forfeit your life - end of story.

It is kind of like people on death row who find Jesus and are born again. Well that is lovely, unfortunately the "old" you killed 9 people in a liqour store robbery. At least you'll be on speaking terms with Jesus when you get where you are going. I'm not sure the 9 people you killed will have much to say to you though.

And you simply keep getting rid of people who would do these kinds of despicable crimes. Sooner you are going to have a lot fewer to deal with and kids will be able to walk around again. You won't get them all, and new ones will come along, but if you get most of them then that is a hell of a lot more productive than tagging your kid like a deer.

[Mandeigh Wells]

we have electronic tagging in the UK.....then we let the crims out of jail! good move :mad: whatever happened to letting the punishment fit the crime? Oh thats ok, slap on the wrist, wear this little tag and be a good boy.....

bring back the stocks and public floggings and real punishment...then we might see the crime level drop!

Mandeigh

[DanielS]

Kiwi, I dont mean any offense at all... but your posts would be a whole lot easier to read if it wasnt just one great big long paragraph. When I'm reading posts, I find myself skipping over those. And, I'll bet I'm not the only one who does that.

Hope I dont come across as rude, because I dont mean to.

[sean_stonehart]

we have electronic tagging in the UK.....then we let the crims out of jail! good move :mad: whatever happened to letting the punishment fit the crime? Oh thats ok, slap on the wrist, wear this little tag and be a good boy.....

bring back the stocks and public floggings and real punishment...then we might see the crime level drop!

Mandeigh

HELL YEAH! You go girl!! If people saw that kind of stuff on say a public square or on the court house steps, silliness would take a drastic nose turn down. :bow:

[Dennis Monk]

bring back the stocks and public floggings and real punishment...then we might see the crime level drop!

Mandeigh
My how we have changed. Just a few weeks ago you felt sympathy for Hussein. I like what I am seeing. Keep it up.

[Mandeigh Wells]

no I felt sorry for the dictator type of lifestyle...billy no mates.....but ithink crime (real crime that is not the 'new nanny state laws our government come out with) should be punished properly...
I'm all for beating the young to save them from a life of crime! :up:

[John Bennett]

John, my friend, like Daniel says...paragraphs. :)

Years ago I would have called Cliff a right-wing conspiracy nut. Now I am one. :)

15 years ago when I was a leftist university student, I would have laughed in your face if you told me that someday in America a person could be jailed merely for expressing certain political opinions.

The First Amendment is the core of American government right? Such things only happen in the Soviet Union! Right?

So I thought. I now see certain Americans lobbying for just such laws.

Incredible. The times they are a-changing.

[Erik]

Honestly there are people who simply don't need to remain alive.

But if you kidnapped a 8 year old kid, tortured him to death and had sex with the remains, well honestly even if you 'could' become a better person I don't feel you are entitled to the opportunity. You should simply forfeit your life - end of story.

You're from Belgium, aren't you?

And I'm with the Scottish Lassie on tagging violent criminals, especially Belgian Cabinet Ministers.

Then again, all the stuff they did was in their own houses, so tagging the kids in this case would keep them safer, believe it or not. Sheez, this is a tough debate as the sinister Big Brothers have a point.

And John, you're right about how times are changing. America is not the same place it was under before Bush and Ashcroft, that's for sure.

Has anyone seen the movie that came out about Fox News, blasting them for distortion and lies? There was an article about it in the New York Times Magazine insert.

[Erik]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=5&u=/nm/20040713/od_nm/crime_mexico_chip_dc

[Sgathak]

You tag a felon today and its "ok", hes a felon...

Then you tag drunk drivers and its "ok", he drives drunk...

Then you tag shoplifters and its "ok", he steals...

Then you tag truants and its "ok", he might get into trouble...

Then you start tagging all students and its "ok", we need to keep track of our kids...

Then you start tagging everyone and its "ok", its kept kids from getting in trouble hasnt it?


No thanks...

[SteyrAUG]

You tag a felon today and its "ok", hes a felon...

Then you tag drunk drivers and its "ok", he drives drunk...

Then you tag shoplifters and its "ok", he steals...

Then you tag truants and its "ok", he might get into trouble...

Then you start tagging all students and its "ok", we need to keep track of our kids...

Then you start tagging everyone and its "ok", its kept kids from getting in trouble hasnt it?


No thanks...


I wasn't advocating "tag and release" for offenders. But if they are out anyway I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep track of them.

[SteyrAUG]

You're from Belgium, aren't you?

And I'm with the Scottish Lassie on tagging violent criminals, especially Belgian Cabinet Ministers.

Nope, not from Belgium. Why do you ask?

[Kiwi]

Yes sorry about the paragraphs, actually I think I just write way too much, I agree with what steyrAUG says actually, some people don`t deserve the chance to be rehabilitated. In a pedophiles case they probably can`t be anyway, anymore than someone who is gay can be "treated" back to being straight, or a straight person can be convinced to be gay.

[Sgathak]

I wasn't advocating "tag and release" for offenders. But if they are out anyway I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep track of them.

So were you advocating just tattooing a big "PEDOPHILE" on their foreheads and leaving them in their cages?

If you come at it from a point of view that "well, he likes to boink little boys so its ok", then it just becomes a matter of degrees... and how and when it gets stepped up, and you know it will... it always does...

I can equate it to gun laws if you would like?

We can start with the attempted confiscation of military grade weaponry (pre-revolutionary war)... follow up with the ban on general ownership of fully automatic rifles (1920's)... flow on over to the bans on "assault" rifles in California and other lovely locales (today)... then point our emprty trigger fingers over to the UK and Australia for a tip on what comes next!

Give em an inch, they will take everything you got.

[tkdcanada]

I totally agree!

[Ewok85]

I'm quite happy with the gun laws here thankyou.

I have to agree with alot of this but your missing some of the idea and meaning behind this. The tagging is just another knee-jerk, money spending, worry lowering scheme in Japan pressured on by parents. Theres been alot of trouble in schools in japan and its gone up and up lately. The thing before this was special mobile phones that are used to phone the parents if the child gets lost and personal alarms (the old pull the string HUUUGE NOISE ENSURES :eek: ). The tags have little effect, its mainly phsycological, "oh my kid has a high tech tracking chip on him at all times, he's safe".

I wouldnt mind a microchip, I could put all sorts of cool stuff in it. Personal ID and identity theft just went to the next level :laugh:

[SteyrAUG]

So were you advocating just tattooing a big "PEDOPHILE" on their foreheads and leaving them in their cages?

If you come at it from a point of view that "well, he likes to boink little boys so its ok", then it just becomes a matter of degrees... and how and when it gets stepped up, and you know it will... it always does...

I can equate it to gun laws if you would like?

We can start with the attempted confiscation of military grade weaponry (pre-revolutionary war)... follow up with the ban on general ownership of fully automatic rifles (1920's)... flow on over to the bans on "assault" rifles in California and other lovely locales (today)... then point our emprty trigger fingers over to the UK and Australia for a tip on what comes next!

Give em an inch, they will take everything you got.



Allow me to calrify.

I am for the execution of anyone who would prey upon children.

HOWEVER, since we don't seem to do that, and IF they are gonna release them from custody anyway, a tag is better than nothing.

Again, I'd personally prefer to execute them but they haven't left that up to me.

[Oz82]

I am for the execution of anyone who would prey upon children.

I second that motion. The only tag I'm in favor of for these kinds of people is a toe tag.

Capital punishment is a complicated subject, however, and if there's an interest in debating THAT, let's do it on another thread.

[Sgathak]

I'm quite happy with the gun laws here thankyou.


I wouldnt mind a microchip, I could put all sorts of cool stuff in it. Personal ID and identity theft just went to the next level

As the saying goes.... "Nuff said"

[Erik]

Nope, not from Belgium. Why do you ask?
A few years ago (though they're just now having their days in court) several Belgian cabinet ministers (highest level, like their Colin Powell & Co.) were busted for (I'm not kidding) kidnapping children, locking them in the basement of one of their houses, and raping and beating them, then killing them, and burrying them in their yards. This was right out of a Hollywood horror flick.

Two escaped and told the police. It was a HUGE deal. Also, this was the time when the Austrians (my former home) elected Haider's party to parilament, a Pat Bucannon type character, and in France Le Pen, a really harsh racist and nationalist, almost won the general election. Much of Europe kept the press off the Belgians (as they are the capital of the EU) and focused it on Le Pen and, especially, Haider.

That's why I made that little quip. The Belgians I was rediculing, but you I was just teasing a little. I hope it wasn't off sides.

[AstreaEvania]

And you simply keep getting rid of people who would do these kinds of despicable crimes. Sooner you are going to have a lot fewer to deal with and kids will be able to walk around again.
I don't mean to start a debate on capital punishment but I would just like to point out that the figures go against the aforementioned statement. Even if we were to execute all the criminals convicted of a "heinous" crime, as SteyrAUG mentioned, there will always be new ones. The fact is capital punishment does not deter crime thus there would always be an endless supply of criminals to execute. Now if all you wanted to do was punish them by taking their life, that would be a different story but as far as making the world a better place where kids can walk free, uh-uh.

On the issue of RFID chips, perhaps in some places they could be useful. If it were children whose movements were to be monitored, I would say that it is up to their legal guardian to decide. Beyond that I don't believe that the chips should be forced on to anyone.

Always & Forever,
Æ

[SteyrAUG]

I don't mean to start a debate on capital punishment but I would just like to point out that the figures go against the aforementioned statement. Even if we were to execute all the criminals convicted of a "heinous" crime, as SteyrAUG mentioned, there will always be new ones. The fact is capital punishment does not deter crime thus there would always be an endless supply of criminals to execute. Now if all you wanted to do was punish them by taking their life, that would be a different story but as far as making the world a better place where kids can walk free, uh-uh.


Always & Forever,
Æ


OK, here is what I mean in math form.

A. Number of Existing dirtbags who need to die

+

B. Number of New dirtbags who need to die.

=

C. Total Number of dirtbags who need to die

or A + B = C.

If you get rid of A, then C will be a lower number.

If you do it in a productive manner B will never really become A and as a result C will continue to be a low number and in reality C will be B.

You will always have B. These people are not rational, normal human beings to begin with so sadly B is a fact of life.

But A doesn't have to be.

[Jack Stay]

I don't mean to start a debate on capital punishment but I would just like to point out that the figures go against the aforementioned statement. Even if we were to execute all the criminals convicted of a "heinous" crime, as SteyrAUG mentioned, there will always be new ones. The fact is capital punishment does not deter crime thus there would always be an endless supply of criminals to execute. Now if all you wanted to do was punish them by taking their life, that would be a different story but as far as making the world a better place where kids can walk free, uh-uh.

On the issue of RFID chips, perhaps in some places they could be useful. If it were children whose movements were to be monitored, I would say that it is up to their legal guardian to decide. Beyond that I don't believe that the chips should be forced on to anyone.

Always & Forever,
Æ

I am reluctantly against the death penalty because: 1.) The death Penalty is not a deterrent to crime; 2.) The Judicial System is not infallible and will kill the wrong guy; 3.) Powerful men & politicians will mis-use the death sentence as a means of legal assassination, by accusing their opponents of a capital crime (such as sedition or treason during war) and watch the fallible Judicial system put their political adversary to death).

Massachusetts has the second highest record of false convictions and wrongful incarcerations. Several men spent 19 years behind bars for nothing! Some of these men were found guilty in a court of law for murder and would have been executed for naught if Massachusetts had the death penalty.

I feel that is too high a price too pay. Even though it wouldn't bother me to choke to death a rapist or pedephile or cannibal or necrophile or any other sick excuse for a human being, if and only if, they truly commited the henious crime.

The American Judicial system is seriously flawed.
________________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[AstreaEvania]

OK, here is what I mean in math form.

A. Number of Existing dirtbags who need to die

+

B. Number of New dirtbags who need to die.

=

C. Total Number of dirtbags who need to die

or A + B = C.

First I should probably mention that math is my worst subject... ;) In order for your equation to make sense, B would have to be the dirtbags who do not yet exist but who have the potential to turn into scum and probably will. The rest of my post is based on this assumption and if this is not what you meant then discard the rest of what I'm going to say.


If you get rid of A, then C will be a lower number.
True.


If you do it in a productive manner B will never really become A and as a result C will continue to be a low number and in reality C will be B.
Ok so A is removed from the equation. Therefore, as you said there is only B and thus B equals C. The only way to prevent B from becoming A and thus actually existing, is if for some reason something stops them. Here's where things get kind of confusing for me. It is proven fact that killing existing dirtbags does not stop those who want to do evil from doing so. So in order to prevent people from committing a crime, they must be physically stopped. This could happen if they were imprisoned or if they were dead. If the government officials were to operate in such a manner, things would start to bear an eerily uncanny resemblance to the movie Minority Report. I hope that this will never happen.



You will always have B. These people are not rational, normal human beings to begin with so sadly B is a fact of life.

There will always be those who commit evil acts. If we eliminate those who have the potential to do evil, there wouldn't be a single human in existance.



But A doesn't have to be.
Yes A does. Perhaps not for a very long period of time but there has to be A's in this world. Let's say that someone is executed upon being convicted of a certain crime. Fine. But they have to actually commit and be convicted of their crime. If not then we lose everything our countries are supposed to stand for.

On a different note I was wondering if anyone has seen the remake of The Manchurian Candidate and if their thoughts on microchips such as RFID chips had changed since then. I found the movie quite interesting and the last line before the credits really got to me.

Always & Forever,
Æ

[redqueen290]

comming from the students point of veiw in this whole "chipping" debate, i must say that we are not as stupid as we look. i can assure u that unless they actually insert the chip on the body, these kids will find away 2 get around it. and even if they are on the body. i mean, if u can find away to get a house arrest bracelet off, wich u can (believe me you dont want to no). than these kids shouldnt have a problem getting rid of the chips if they want to. and they r definitally gonna want to. no one wants to b tracked like an animal. its very demeaning. its not as ez as they think to controll people, and of all people children at that. im just sayin i hope they realize what they r getting themselves in2 with this whole thing.
-emily nealey

[J.S.T.]

Check this page out: www.infowars.com

[Spartan]

..... no one wants to b tracked like an animal. its very demeaning. ....

yet, wearing dog chains, nose rings (cattle), tatoo (horses, dogs) are not only NOT demeaning, but quite cool actually? :D

[tkdcanada]

yet, wearing dog chains, nose rings (cattle), tatoo (horses, dogs) are not only NOT demeaning, but quite cool actually? :D

To each his own. Why are these things so demeaning? They are only demeaning if someone else puts them on you against your will. I know lots of very respectable people who have some of these things (some on these boards). Why is a nose ring worse than an earring? Why would you only associate tattoos with animals - many use it as a form of self-expression or art. The point was?

[Spartan]

Not necessary demeaning. I was only making a joke. But if you ask me, piecing your tongue, eyelids, nose, or lips, are invitation to easy mutilation in a fight. May be not demeaning, but not particularly well thought out. As for tatoo, it is an artistic expression, with the exception of idiots who make a laughing stock out of themselves by using dumb foreign words . But people also tatoo their dogs and horses for ID. Still, if it makes you happy, then have a ball.

[redqueen290]

But if you ask me, piecing your tongue, eyelids, nose, or lips, are invitation to easy mutilation in a fight.

lol, not everyone is an insane ma like the people on this site, (dont deny it, you know who you are). Whether or not something is going to help you in a fight is the last thing on most peoples minds. Infact, most people never get into a fight, ever. And if I was going to get my nose pierced, then the fact that I'm in ma would not stop me. Infact, I have a whole list of things to get tattooed and pierced the second I turn 18.

oh, and for the record I have worn a dog collar everyday for the past 4 months, and I think it looks super sexy thankyou very much. :p

[Spartan]

lol, not everyone is an insane ma like the people on this site, (dont deny it, you know who you are). Whether or not something is going to help you in a fight is the last thing on most peoples minds. Infact, most people never get into a fight, ever.
You got me there. I have always said that people go into MA looking for different things, ie a religion/philosophy, a sport/recreation, fighting skills. Yet I still routinely make the mistake of imposing my personal MA objective onto others.


I have a whole list of things to get tattooed and pierced the second I turn 18. and then spend the rest of your life trying to erase the tatoos..... :D Yep. I have seen this happened to my friends.


oh, and for the record I have worn a dog collar everyday for the past 4 months, and I think it looks super sexy thankyou very much. :p
PUNK! :rolleyes: :mad: lol