View Full Version : What to do against the REALLY big guys!
We have this REALLY REALLY big guy in our school. He easily outweighs me by over 100 pounds and has at least 10 inches on me.
He is a really great guy. Wonderful sense of humor and takes everything in stride. The problem I have is I feel totally and completely inept when I am sparring against him or even when partnered with him. Today we were doing this move where I should have had his shoulder pinned to the ground (don't ask me what it was called, I am terrible for remember the names of pins, locks, etc) I am pretty sure I had everything set right and he just sat up leaving me dangling off of his arm. :eek: I felt like I was a little kid. Another time I was shooting at his leg for a take down and when my shoulder hit his leg it felt like I hit a brick wall. My instructor kept telling me to push through. How does one push through solid rock????
Anyways does anyone else have this problem in their class? Any ladies out there with any words of wisdom or perhaps some of you rather large fellows could share some of your weaknesses with me. ;) I am rather worried about my partner not feeling like he is learning when with me.
tkdcanada
07-12-2004, 23:14
I hear ya. My husband is a good 50 lbs heavier than me and a good 8 inches taller and rock solid. Sometimes we fool around and I try stuff on him like wrist locks, etc.. and it makes me realize that if anyone like him were to ever attack me, I'd be toast....no matter what I know. How do you compete with brute strength??
Andrew Green
07-12-2004, 23:30
How do you compete with brute strength??
Lots of technique ;)
It's not easy, but it is possible.
Mobility and technique are the tricks, but you need a rather large skill advantage at a 100 lbs weight difference...
tkdcanada
07-12-2004, 23:56
Lots of technique ;)
It's not easy, but it is possible.
Mobility and technique are the tricks, but you need a rather large skill advantage at a 100 lbs weight difference...
I don't know....I haven't been successful with anything I've tried here at home. Now, I'm nowhere near perfect at it, but I've learned things he hasn't, so I do have some advantage, but still....I'd have to see it to believe it.
Andrew Green
07-13-2004, 00:28
I don't know....I haven't been successful with anything I've tried here at home. Now, I'm nowhere near perfect at it, but I've learned things he hasn't, so I do have some advantage, but still....I'd have to see it to believe it.
To be blunt, The grappling you are learning in TKD is probably not the greatest, that is not what TKD does.
One of the keys to fighting a bigger opponent is you need to be able to set things up. Simply attempting a lock is not going to work, you need to get them to put themselves into the lock or choke. This is not easy to do.
I have grappled with guys that outweigh me by 100 lbs or more, I admit it is a intesting dilemma, but it can be done. Just takes practice. They can get away with things you can't. And you can't get away with things you normally could.
Some people say the key to beating a larger opponent is in grappling (BJJ being a big pusher of this) I believe it is in movement, on the feet and on the ground. Chopping down a much larger opponent with hit and move leg kicks, Staying active in the guard and taking quick shots to wear him down for a submission, etc. On the feet or on the ground its the same thing, you need to learn how to move well to have a chance.
Jeff Burger
07-13-2004, 06:30
10 skills = 1 strength
10 strengths = 1 will
In striking your going to need to be faster in technique and mobility.
If you know constructiive or destructive blocking ( sabaki or gunting) it can help you cancel out some of their reach.
Personally Id rather grapple with a big man. Reason being is I dont fight the whole person but focus on one piece ( example I put my whole body on a heel hook, armbar or choke).
I tend to prioritize my submissions. Leglocks are slightly ahead of chokes and a gap from chokes to armbars.
Reason armbars are at the end of my list is cause I feel people tend to have more dexterity in thier arms and can defend them better.
Chokes are next cause I like knowing I could put them out and end a fight or match with minimal risk of injury. They are not at the top of my list because again people tend to defend them well. Rear chokes are greatbut you have to get behind them first.
Leg locks are at the top of my list cause people tend to not have alot of dexterity in their legs and do not defend them well.
I dont like leg bars cause I dontfeel I could break a bigger man. I dont like straight ankle lock cause again I dont think I can break easily.
I like heelhooks and other twisting movements cause I know I can cause real damage. By real damage I mean he could not chase me, stand to fight me ( or stand well).
Take avantage of the opportunity to train with the big men in your club.
People who avoid them cause they dont want to lose just dont get it.
Jeff
Maybe its me but big guys tend to have stiff ankles.
Get those 'Post Reply' fingers ready folks....
Pressure points. I recently had an encounter with an 'Eastern Block' trained wrestler who really put me through my paces. He even sprained my ankle just before Christmas with a leg lock and I knew that Judo wasn't going to work on him.
HOWEVER, when we switched to a little more self defence and Jiu-Jutsu stuff that caused major pain to small areas he squealed like a 16yo Prom Queen. I was so surprised when this happened that I thought I'd accidently hurt him somewhere else.
Moral to the story: look at all your options and don't concentrate on a set game plan.
Of course, you can't chuch a pressure point in if you're just going through the motions, but don't dismiss their effectiveness against an opponent particularly when you're looking for an opening.
Jim Perkins
07-13-2004, 10:36
Being a large guy myself (6'4'' 225lbs.) what Jeff said is good advice and works you must be faster with your technique. You need to attack at first sign of their movement and try and catch them in movement and off balance. When they have a weight shift (timing) you use that to your advantage this is when the stance is weakest (this is when you can push through) and you can use their size against themselves to take them down. Taking the legs away of course in class we don't want to injury anyone but train to attack the weak points. You know the saying the bigger their are the hard the fall. I hate it when that happens!
This is all great advice. Can I add that you will need to HUSTLE and use your speed against his size? And the more you practice with him, the better you will be on small, more "mortal" human beings.
Keep it up. Don't get too frustrated. And don't forget in reality that you can use other tools like Mike Tyson - bite off an ear or something (but not on your training buddy!)
Don Davies
07-13-2004, 12:40
...bite off an ear or something (but not on your training buddy!)
I had my ear damn near ripped off my head by a training buddy :D
When I'm with a big guy I'll try to stay in tight so it's harder for him to muscle out of things and also you got to move and stay tight. If you just pin him down he will get out and muscle you over but if you stay tight and swich postions all the time he will have a more difficult time getting out.
For a minute there, Don, I thought you were the big guy in question. :)
I would have to say...get behind them as fast as you can and get them in a choke or a very secure pressure point. Everyone I've gone against is larger and stronger. I got a very nice leg choke on my instructor tonight. :) He's 6 foot about 170 and has alot more training....I'm 5-4 and 124 pounds and started jujitsu and ground fighting about 2 months ago...so I was very proud of myself...he's the only one to make me tap out...so far
When I did a lot of traditional type Jujutsu I had a big partner. He would whip me around the mat like nobodys biz. I told him he was a little too rough for just practice, no affect. So I talked to my sensei and he observed and showed me how to escape his strength over technique moves. Once I was able to escape faster and get just one good throw he showed me more repsect. Speed and pressure points equalize!
John Runer
Jeff Burger
07-14-2004, 06:33
Our big guy hasnt been tothe new school since we opened.
I cant wait forhim to get back.
Big Kenny 6' 5" 365 lbs and a whooooole lot of it is muscle.
Jeff
realistaclly if the guy has a bit of a clue what he is doing you cant beat him. There are limits to the human body, I have argued this point many times and th politicallly correct view is that with technique you can do it. In reality if the guy is trying to kill you.........he will.
Guys before you disagree think if you can think of one woman that could beat you. Not in sparring but if you were fighting her for the lives of your children or someone you love that much.
In my younger days I weighed 165 lbs. In our judo club we had one guy who weighed about 220 lbs. We had another who admitted to 305 lbs. I loved to fight them. I got beat alot. But man did I learn. It is really all technique. Keep your balance, move and bring them off balance. On the ground you MUST use technique to survive or your sucked in and crushed. Chokes and arm bars need to be set up. Limit the number of limbs they can use, stay to the side and control the head. Use your legs against their arms. Spend lots of time getting beat by them. It's terriffic training, you will guys your size for lunch.
Peace
Dennis
So there I was in class again last night and rolling with the big guy :D
It went much better this time... okay... so there was one time that I had him in a triangle choke and he just sat up and I was dangling from his neck again :o ... but it was actually quite hilarious from my point of view, I can only imagine how funny it looked to the rest of the class.
Anyways... thanks for all the advice everyone, I really appreciated it and it helped a great deal.
Cliff Hargrave
07-20-2004, 10:36
If you have him in a triangle and you are on your back, pivot to the side and hook his leg with your arm to keep him from standing. Like this:
http://www.tpcjiujitsu.com/klif/tc.jpg
If you miss and he stands, then let go before he lifts you, entangle his legs and sweep him down into a foot lock.
Typing it is alot easier than doing it though :)
Andrew Green
07-20-2004, 17:09
If you have him in a triangle and you are on your back, pivot to the side and hook his leg with your arm to keep him from standing. Like this:
http://www.tpcjiujitsu.com/klif/tc.jpg
If you miss and he stands, then let go before he lifts you, entangle his legs and sweep him down into a foot lock.
Typing it is alot easier than doing it though :)
She knows that, she just likes dangling upside down ;)
She knows that, she just likes dangling upside down ;)
:t2:
Cliff,
Thanks for your words of encouragement and for the picture... I was stuggling so hard to get my legs locked that I didn't have time to lock an arm under his leg... something tells me though that it probably wouldn't have mattered much :( , he is so big that when I have mounted him my knees don't even touch the mat on either side :o
lol, thats funny, id love to see that.
he is so big that when I have mounted him my knees don't even touch the mat on either side
- Deleted comment before I even posted it - :eek:
hahaha ys but i can guess what it was.
lol
nice one
very funny,
lisa any comments???????????? :bandit:
- Deleted comment before I even posted it - :eek:
LOL! You know something funny, as I was posting that I thought, Jim is gonna run with this comment, I just know it! :D
I hate you Jim.
Your getting old and apparently losing all your hair :p
Alot of great responses.
I'm a thin person myself ( think of a pencil in a karate uniform) so a lot of what said also has and aplies to me.
Cliff, I like those pictures keep posting those.
So there I was in class again last night and rolling with the big guy :D
It went much better this time... okay... so there was one time that I had him in a triangle choke and he just sat up and I was dangling from his neck again :o ... but it was actually quite hilarious from my point of view, I can only imagine how funny it looked to the rest of the class.
Anyways... thanks for all the advice everyone, I really appreciated it and it helped a great deal.
Haha! I know how you feel. I have a buddy that works in a disciplinary campus for youths. He's about 6'4 370 lbs. Not exactly buff - more like just naturally big and strong. (I like to surround myself with these types, cause it deters any unwanted attention - lol).
Anyways, we do medieval full contact fighting (SCA) together, and when we're not suited up in our armor, we're usually cutting up on each other and it always comes to a point where he just lifts me up with the greatest of ease (because I'm a smartass ;)). Now, I'm short (about 5'6-5'7) but i'm not exactly a lightweight...about 180 lbs. It's amazing how effortlessly he can toss me around like a ragdoll.
I always think that if a guy like that ever attacked me, I'd be done for. Whenever I'm in a situation where I'm training - for the SCA combat and most recently martial arts, I'm always looking for the best/biggest guy to tangle with (little-guy mentality). I'm hoping with martial arts training I can improve my flexibilty and quickness so I can give guys like that a bit of a surpise.
Lisa - keep working at it! You'll most likely give this guy some grief if you get slippery enough. Plus I think you'll actually give him good experience if he ever has to face someone who uses other skills/strengths besides brute force.
renegade
07-27-2004, 20:18
realistaclly if the guy has a bit of a clue what he is doing you cant beat him. There are limits to the human body, I have argued this point many times and th politicallly correct view is that with technique you can do it. In reality if the guy is trying to kill you.........he will.
Guys before you disagree think if you can think of one woman that could beat you. Not in sparring but if you were fighting her for the lives of your children or someone you love that much.
I have to dispute this one. I think this topic was more based on training scenarios but in a real fight for your life anything goes situation, then I'd have to say the more agile mind between two equally skilled foes of differing size will win. If I was a big ox attacking a small female who had just palmed a very lethal object during the struggle and I missed noticing it... ok I know we're entering the infinitely endless world of 'what if's' but you get my point. Anyway bottom line, in a real situation against a mountain, fight dirty. There is no art, there are no rules. That's what all this training is about in the end isn't it? To finally learn that all these kata, techniques, etc etc are really nothing more in the end but a means to train your mind and body to just move and react instinctively. If I'm fast enough, I can destroy his air supply in 1 hit. I can blind him at least in 1 eye pretty quick too. That kind of thinking is more often on my mind than a huge guy's mind. it's all relative, nature has a way of balancing things out. Take the animal kingdom analogy elsewhere in this thread and add a twist - Know many bears willing to piss off a wolverine? :laugh:
Well I would like to thank everyone for talking about me. :wink2:
Just to set the record straight what I am trying to do at class is use my apparent size as a defense. I try not to use it to crush or squeeze my classmates. This allows/requires others to develop and perfect thier techniques and makes me learn to use them as well.
I really think I could hurt my classmates if I used my bulk to its' full advantage. (It might hurt Andrew as well if I landed on him or picked him up and slammed him) (If he let me of course :D )
As mentioned if this was the street yes try to mame the attacker. But if the attacker is 6' 3" 260+ lbs. and has the same goal; Run Forest Run.
Jay Bell
08-10-2004, 08:30
Hi Krem,
Please sign all of your posts with your full name, per forum rules. You can add it to your sig file to make it easier.
Thanks
I've yet to meet a really big guy that was out of his teens and still had good knees. On the street my basic strategy would be go for the knees (low kicks) then run. In a grappling match its squim and do the best that I could.
I've yet to meet a really big guy that was out of his teens and still had good knees. On the street my basic strategy would be go for the knees (low kicks) then run. In a grappling match its squim and do the best that I could.
Hmmm that would be an assumption that might not pay off. I would suspect that fewer guys walk around with a cup on.
Bruce Mac
tkdcanada
08-10-2004, 22:27
What does walking around with a cup on have to do with kicking to the knees?? :confused:
First, it is all about assumptions and probablilities. Its also about observing and gageing an oponent. Nothing is going to work against all attackers all the time. The perfect defense is a myth. And if you beleive that you have the perfect defense I'm not going to argue with you and I wish you well in your delusions.
But, to get back to the conversation - below I've paraphrased what Krem wrote -
"Big guys on the street are more vunerable in the groin area (since many do not walk around with cups on) then they are in the knee. Therefore, it would make more sense to attack the groin area." Krem if this parapharase isn't what you meant please correct me.
Which if that is what he means, I do find interesting because I've been told numerous times that even a reasonably experienced male street fighter is going to expect an attack to the groin, therefore, it is better to attack elsewhere so the case of big guys I still think the knee is a better target.
Since I'm female I really have no way to judge this for myself. Although if enough big guys want to volunteer I'd be happy to experiment and publish the results :D . But, absent that I'd love to hear what the big guys have to say.
tkdcanada
08-12-2004, 10:53
Wow, Debra, good job decoding that message. (if it's correct) I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
That's an interesting theory and makes a lot of sense. Being female also, I wouldn't know if it's valid, but I do know that if I had to walk around with such a sensitive area exposed the way it is, I'd always be ten steps ahead to protect it. :D A guy would probably not expect an attack to the knee as readily as he would expect one to the groin - and a kick to the knee can debilitate almost as much (enough to make a get away, anyway). Something I will remember if ever attacked. ;)
Cliff Hargrave
08-12-2004, 11:16
The knee is a funny thing too, it all depends on how the foot is planted, where their weight is, how they are standing, etc...
I have seen guys blasted with thai kicks to the knee joint and keep on fighting and I have seen people step wrong accidentally and need knee surgery. Kind of an "all or nothing" target.
Sure- I guess my initial reply was too short. As I said above when it comes to street fights everything is risky which is reason enough to avoid them in my humble opinion.
But in the odd situation (I really don't go around picking fights, honestly I don't) where I would find myself in a serious fight with someone much larger that me that I didn't know anything else about them except that they are large- the knee would be my target of choice. Because at least in my experience with big guys (and big girls for that matter) bad knees are a pretty good assumption and its not an attack most people would expect. But if he were stupid enough to give me a good shot at his groin... l would :mad:
(rest of thought deleted to keep this a children friendly site).
And I also vary my tactics to fit the situation. For instance in the unlikely situation that I was in a bar (I also generally avoid bars...) and a big lad were pawing at me and also assuming I didn't like it (nobody is ugly after 2 am :eek: which is why I avoid bars...anyway) After stating the fact that I didn't like it and giving due warning, I would probably try a pressure point on his hand or elbow. Since I have NO desire to find myself in the middle of a bar fight and the advantages of pressure points that they can be subtle enough to avoid embarassing him in front of friends/acquintances but, it also clearly gets the point across that when I say no, I really mean no and when pushed I can and will back it up.
If I were in a demestic squabble with a big lad that turned violent I would be doing everything I could to get to the weopons first... then to a phone
Back to Lisa's question.....
Generally, try to avoid using strength against strength. Try to go around the strength. In the example you gave of trying to get the leg for the take down and you hit a brick wall, try that again. Only when you hit the wall, hang out there and experiment. You are pushing one direction, and he is pushing the exact opposite direction. Instead of going against his strength, go around. This means, roll the direction you are pushing to be perpendicular to the direction he is pushing. A simple change in the direction of the force will make all the difference.
Also, go with his movement. In Judo, they say "pull when pushed and push when pulled." It works standing and on the ground.
Also, if you think about it, every move is the set up for a counter. Even his counter is a move, which is the set up for a counter. If you get too attached to one thing, sure he can counter it. But, if you relax and go with flow, as he counters, you can counter his counter. ( its a lot harder to actually do, but it is possible, and once you get it, it gets easier ) Practice transitioning from one pin into another.
Another thing to look at is the idea of a wrist lock. In a wrist lock, you use your whole body against a fairly small joint. When that joint locks, it the locks the elbow, then the shoulder. In fact, by controlling the wrist, you can move the entire body. Try to find ways that you can use your whole body to control a small part of his, like his wrist, ankle, head, neck, elbow..... Also remember, that if you move one part to its extreme edge, then moving it more, will necessarily cause the next part of the body to move as well.
Lastly, for the triangle choke where he stood up, its happened to me too. But, I learned a really cool counter to it. Ever do fish-flops? ( its where you roll backwards up onto your shoulder, then arch your back and roll across your front ) When he stands up, do a fish-flop, throwing your head back and through his legs, keeping your triangle hold with your legs. It will pull him into a face fall/head plant. If you keep the arm bar, from the triangle choke, be very careful as you could easily break it here. ( if he is real big, wait till he trys to slam you or put you back down. As big as he is, it is more stress on his neck to hold you up than it is for your legs to hold you up. As soon as he moves forward, or down, fish-flop between his legs. )
Cliff Hargrave
08-12-2004, 15:08
fish flop? huh?
can you post a pic of that one?
are you asking about how to do a fish flop? Or how the fish flop works in this situation? ( I am just not sure which question you are asking )
For the fish flop itself, do a back roll, where you go over your shoulder. But, instead of dropping your knee to the ground, extend you feet straight up, so you are balanced on your shoulder. Arch your back, so that you roll down, chest first, then stomach, then hips, thighs, knees and lastly feet.
In this situation, when you are picked up, while using the triangle choke, instead of curling your body forward, to reach your feet, arch backwards, just like doing a fish flop. Your head should go between his legs, like you are trying to swing through his legs and hit the back of your head to small of his back. If your weight alone does not topple him, the fact that you are applying an arm bar, should off balance him enough to fall forward into the arm bar.
I have seen this move used in MMA, King of the Cage I think. Except that the guy on the bottom was going for an arm bar from the guard as the top guy backed out. The top guy picked up the bottom guy a few times and slammed him down, till he finally arched back. Then the top guy basically slammed the arm-bar on. I will try to find that match to give you a reference.
Luebbers
08-13-2004, 13:18
I believe I have also seen the KOTC match you are talking about. That may have been Jerry Bohlander, but I'm not sure.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, an example would be, let's say I'm trying to armbar Quentin Jackson from the guard. I've got the lock secured, but he's holding his arm and decides to pick me up and slam me to get me to let go. Instead of curling up closer to him (like a sit up), as he brings me down, I sort of sprawl out so that I land face down on the mat. This puts is in the classic armbar position (like from the mount) only upside down - both of us face down on the mat, hopefull, Jackson unable to maneuver out the armbar now. This is a very risky move for several reasons. The first and foremost is that you take a big, BIG chance of coming down right on your face or head during the slam (as opposed to your back or shoulder if you stay tighter). The second problem is that in order to sprawl out very well, you need to have pulled his arm straight enough to give you the room to straigten out. This is why the slam can be so devastating. As I am straightening his arm, I'm basically letting him spike me on my head because I'm not curled up in tight.
Keeping with the example above, if I were trying to triangle Jackson (ie, not reliant on his arms), I think you are better off trying to pick his ankle to cut his lifting power. The big danger with sprawling between his legs as you described is him basically putting a lion tamer on you. Don't laugh, I've seen a video from a BJJ tournament where the guy on the bottom tried to roll face down between the other guys legs when he stood up. All the top guy did was sit down and back (albeit, I don't think he did it on purpose) and put a serious hurt on the bottom guy. Never thought I'd see a WWF submission move in a BJJ tournament.
You understand the move correctly. Thanks for finding the fight for me.
Are you really saying, though, that the move is bad, because it has a counter? Which move does not have a counter?
If you time it right, you pull the guy into a head plant and apply the bar at the same time. In the example of the lion tamer in a bjj match, the guy pulling off this manuever, somehow let the arm bar go and also let the triangle go. The arm bar would prevent the lion tamer, and the triangle would result in a head plant.
The reason I suggested that move was because it is an outside the box move. If the other guy has never seen it before, it has a good chance of working, provided you commit to it. Like any other move, if you know its coming, you can counter it.
Joseph_Bowen
08-14-2004, 00:08
striking against a big guy and wearing him down, sounds good but if he gets you maybe even once you could be in trouble, I know that's obvious but while you're focused on chopping him down or wearing him down or whatever, keep that in mind along with him doing takedowns on you.
JujitsuFreak
08-26-2004, 16:13
This is all great advice. Can I add that you will need to HUSTLE and use your speed against his size? And the more you practice with him, the better you will be on small, more "mortal" human beings.
Like some here, my school has a big motha. 6'3" or 4, and 330 big lbs. Mostly muscle. Former amateur boxer, and wrestler. Great guy. I love to train with him, Im always trying to get some time in against him. The more I learn from this big dude, logically and like the above quote, the better I will be become at mortals. It's a bit of an oxymoron when you think about, what in the blazing heck are these dudes doing gaining valuable training! :D I guess the saying is true that there is always someone bigger and better. Either way, Im glad he attends class.. to everyone he says to give your best shots when punching to the stomach. There are some other big guys there too at 6' or higher that punch him in the stomach and Ive even given all Ive got against that granite. He doesn't even flinch. Oh yea, pressure points don't work on him, at all.
And I also vary my tactics to fit the situation. For instance in the unlikely situation that I was in a bar (I also generally avoid bars...) and a big lad were pawing at me and also assuming I didn't like it (nobody is ugly after 2 am which is why I avoid bars...anyway) After stating the fact that I didn't like it and giving due warning, I would probably try a pressure point on his hand or elbow. Since I have NO desire to find myself in the middle of a bar fight and the advantages of pressure points that they can be subtle enough to avoid embarassing him in front of friends/acquintances but, it also clearly gets the point across that when I say no, I really mean no and when pushed I can and will back it up.
Do you think the odds of this are high? I mean the guy attacking the girl in the middle of the bar... Ive seen it happen only a few times. One guy slapped a girl... lemme just say that that bar was like the Matrix and was completely still for approx 2 seconds only to recoil with just about every guy in the place pouncing on the attacker. Even the other situations, people in large masses have jumped in and given the dude what he deserved.
Chances of a guy attacking me in a bar- low. Chances of a guy pawing at me in a bar when I don't want to be pawed- much higher. But, the point of this post was that I vary my tactics according to the situation. As I said in my orginal post on this thread when fighting a big guy my basic plan is to attack his knees because I have yet to meet a big guy out of teens who doesn't have bad knees.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.