Kick High?

[spyder man]

I know most taekwondo schools emphasize high kicks, but lately Iv'e noticed that high kicks leave too much of a target open for the opponent to take advantage of. I'm not ruling out high kicks completely, but is it really smart to use an axe kick or roundhouse to the face in self defense? Or should just play it safe and strike low?

[Gae-Bek]

It takes a lot of conditioning to be able to kick high [effectively]. In a sparring situation, you may score a lot of hits (to the head) if you can kick high well, but you'll find that you get run-over or tripped-up a lot more.

As far as self-defense goes, you're right, don't kick above waist-height. Don't use a roundhouse kick, and DEFINITELY don't EVER use an axe kick. Maybe a good rear-leg roundhouse to the knee might do some damage, but if you're dead-set on kicking in a self-defense situation, the side-kick is the way to go. Even in sparring, I occasionally drop people with a good mid-section side-kick...through a hogu, no less.

Of course, self-defense situations unravel so quickly, that you probably wouldn't have time to get a kick off, anyway.

Just my $0.02.

[Good advisor]

I have some clip of karate fighting Tkd and axe kick does work.

1. To do an axe kick is to do it without moving your arms much and do it fast.

[SRK85]

High Kicks do not work in combat. TKD is not too effective for reality self defense. But some TKD dojangs do teach good self defesne but not all.

[nosh276]

Umm TKD was developed for combat. It's highly effective! Anyway round kicks are very effective if you have an opening, sidekicks are basically always effective. On the street though I wouldn't go for the head unless I was absolutely sure. I would do more of a muay thai roundkick to their knee or ribs, spinning heel kick, on the street, would probably work well also.

[DragonMind]

GA

Per forum rules please add your full name in your posts. Most folks just add it to their signatures. Thanks.

[DragonMind]

Umm TKD was developed for combat.
So the story goes...unfortunately it has never been tested in actual combat because modern combat is not hand to hand, except under very unusual circumstances. The closest analogy, though an arguable one, would be personal defense. Many a TKD stylist has wound up in the hospital even though they won on points against a nasty survival fighter.

Before anyone gets their panties in a knot, I am not bashing TKD. After almost 40 years of MA now with 25+ in Korean styles, I love the arts. I've also had enough experience to learn that fighting - not sparring - is not about specific techniques, particular styles, individual teachers, or any of the other myriad of BS you hear slung about by so many martial artists. It is about the person who can reach into their gut and overcome the fear, adrenaline and stress of the situation; who can keep their cool and do what it takes to end the situation quickly, efficiently, and safely. Any technique can work under specific circumstances, but what will you actually use when you need it? Fighting for your life reduces a lot of things - vision, focus, motor skills - to some pretty basic levels. If your only experience is in the ring sparring, talk to some LEOs or security specialists, try out some adrenal stress training, get on the mat with some folks of very different styles (for TKD people I recommend sparring with some kenpo and jj folks), and explore weapons training (especially knife and stick) in some depth. An ax kick to the point of a knife sucks.

[Gae-Bek]

I have some clip of karate fighting Tkd and axe kick does work.

The question was about self-defense, not "karate fighting" (which I assume means sparring). I still maintain that you should not use an axe kick for self-defense.


Umm TKD was developed for combat. It's highly effective!

Last I checked, the art of Taekwondo had a 1-8-0 record in the UFC. Not sure who got us the one win, but I'll betchya he didn't JUST do Taekwondo. I think that you'll need to qualify that whole "highly effective" comment a little more...


spinning heel kick, on the street, would probably work well also.

I normally do my best to be civil on these boards; however, you need to come back from what ever dream-world it is that you live in. Throwing a spinning heel kick in the street is going to result in you lying on your stomach, with your assailant sitting on your back...because he'll rush you and run you down the moment you turn your back to him.

[SRK85]

Umm TKD was developed for combat. It's highly effective! Anyway round kicks are very effective if you have an opening, sidekicks are basically always effective. On the street though I wouldn't go for the head unless I was absolutely sure. I would do more of a muay thai roundkick to their knee or ribs, spinning heel kick, on the street, would probably work well also.

Im not bashing TKD but if someone is in a fight don't try to throw a fancy jump spinning back kick. Instead run or block the punch then strike, throw, or armbar. But however TKD focuses way to much on kicking usually and not enough on striking, throwing, and armbreaks.

[nosh276]

If someone doesn't know what they're doing, aka on the street, then a spinning heel kick, if placed properly, could be extremely effective. The average joe doesn't know what to do in that situation even if they are an assailant. About the UFC, you're completely right. No one said tkd was perfect. None of the martial arts are. Most martial artists take several styles for that exact reason. I'm training, unofficially, in jujitsu (weeping style), and ground fighting for that purpose. Y'all jump to way too many conclusions when I defended the effectiveness of tkd kicks. Also, traditional tkd has just as many, if not more, hand techniques. You need to remember, also, that legs are longer than arms. If your attacker gets a good sidekick to the ribs as they try to punch you, they'll reconsider what they're doing. And if they try, with a lack of training, to kick, you have even more of an advantage. See what I'm saying? You can't just dismiss these things. About point sparring. I don't. At least I havn't since I came back (2 months, 4 times or 5 times a week). It's stupid and only for tournaments.

[DragonMind]

The average joe doesn't know what to do in that situation even if they are an assailant.
Very, very bad assumption. MAs get their heads handed to them more by that "average joe" than by other MAs. That assailant isn't going to stand off and let you get that kick in. He's going to take you down fast and hard and then use that weapon you never knew he had. People like Darren Levin, Marc MacYoung, and Peyton Quinn have made an extensive study of street fights and they don't happen the way the majority of adrenalin-junkie MAs think they do. When it comes to real self defense, I'd bet that 90+% of MA instructors have never experienced it and have NO CLUE what really happens. Personally, I'd like to see professional certification of MA instructors become the norm and the wanna-be's get sued out of existance.

[nosh276]

Wayne, you are wise beyond my years. :bow:

[spyder man]

I think TKD is effective, but only if you train for actual defense, not just sport. Anybody heard of Hee Il Cho? This man trained both the Korean and Indian military forces using TKD and I don't think anyone involved in the military is gonna learn a fighting style that's not gonna work in real life. Also, back then they used heavy conditioning, much like mauy thai fighters. Then the whole dynamic kicking trick demonstrating came into play and it changed the way TKD looked.

Although I am in WTF style Taekwondo, I do train for defense as well as sport. Still don't know much grappling though, but I'll get to that. Great, now I'm all off subject. BACK TO HIGH KICKS! Yes, no, or does it depend on the situation? Opinions, everyone! :D

[moogong]

I would not suggest using high kicks in street altercation but that does not mean they dont have their place. Besides muscle development, they are great for the "art" side of TKD. I think every art has it's orimental techniques that would not be suited for the street. On a side note, I have seen many demonstrations from what I thought were TKD schools that were in fact a karate school.
As for TKD not being proven effective in the UFC, there are so many styles that have not been showcased in the ring yet, it does not mean they suck or are worthless for self defence.

[Akuma]

Hey, I love TKD more than most people...but even I wouldnt be crazy enough to do a high or spin kick in a street confrontation! I like my teeth :) When your in the street, keep the kicks low and the fists moving.

[SRK85]

Agreed Akuma.

[Gae-Bek]

As for TKD not being proven effective in the UFC, there are so many styles that have not been showcased in the ring yet, it does not mean they suck or are worthless for self defence.

I'm not saying that TKD (or any art, for that matter), whose practitioners have not fared well in the UFC, lost because their art "sucks". I was using the UFC comment to challenge the notion that Taekwondo was developed for "combat". As the UFC is somewhat close to "combat", I felt that the record of Taekwondoists [who have attempted UFC competition] to be of some value.

As far as furthering the discussion; as a self-defense instructor I only teach my self-defense students one "kick". And that one "kick" is a knee strike.

Someone asked me once, that if I have over 10 years of experience in Taekwondo, then why am I not teaching any kicks in my self-defense class. The reason is, that unless you've been doing it for a few years, kicking in a street situation will only get you into trouble by compromising your balance. It doesn't make any sense for me to teach legions of 19 year-old college women (97% of which have no martial arts background, other than eight 1.5 hour classes with me) to stand toe-to-toe with a man , and do roundhouse kicks to the head, mid-section, or even the knee.

You could argue that a side-kick is better for self-defense, and I'd agree with that. But it takes YEARS to develop a good side-kick. Again, not something that I can expect someone to throw with expert precision after 12 hours of classes.

[i]Now I know that we weren't really talking about what newbies should be taught for self-defense, but I did want you all to understand where my perspective was coming from.

[tbmonti]

Well Of course it takes years to develope an effective side kick no one ever said that this thing we do is a quick fix to learn how to fight. Any Martial art takes time to learn and once you have learned techniques it takes years to perfect them and develop them into an instinctive movment. Also one of the major reasons that I teach and work on high kicks is to develop more speed and power for my low and middle section kick that I would use in a self defense situation. I agree that it is not the best course of action to attempt a high flashy kick on the street and those dojang that would teach people to do that are doing their students a dis-service.

Respectfully,
Anthony B. Monti

[sidekick]

No disrespect intended here Gae-Bek but just out of curosity, what do you teach the legions of 19 yr old college women? Everybody has their own viewpoints of what and how to teach, but removing the strongest part of a females ability to inflict pain and or damage i.e. the legs, puts them even further behind the power curve don't you think? It's difficult to comprehend why you think it takes years to learn how to kick effectively. I understand that you only have these people for a stretched out 8 hr time frame, but it looks like they must use upper body techniques/strength if there's no kicks. Can't forsee many being in a good position to defend themselves based on that alone, unless you are showing them how to use whatever natural weapons they may have at hand.

Mike Dunn

[Mike S]

WOW!!! I am having a flashback to a similar discussion on another forum regarding the same topic. IMO, everything has its place. That being said, taking into consideration the surface that you're on, your surroundings, the clothing that you're wearing all come into play. If you're a business man, and wear a suit and tie everyday, I really dont think that a jump spinning hook kick is the best thing to do, and most likely you will find yourself on your a**, because unless those kicks are done quick and without any telegraphing, the other guy could see them coming and counter them. Its best to keep them waist level or below.

Mike Slosek

[Mike S]

If someone doesn't know what they're doing, aka on the street, then a spinning heel kick, if placed properly, could be extremely effective.

And that is the key word here folks... if placed properly

The majority of those flashy kicks take quite some time to master. If I had a choice of 2 kicks, jump spinning kick or knee...I dont know about anyone else, but I'm gonna go with the knee.

Mike Slosek

[DragonMind]

No disrespect intended here Gae-Bek but just out of curosity, what do you teach the legions of 19 yr old college women? Everybody has their own viewpoints of what and how to teach, but removing the strongest part of a females ability to inflict pain and or damage i.e. the legs, puts them even further behind the power curve don't you think? It's difficult to comprehend why you think it takes years to learn how to kick effectively. I understand that you only have these people for a stretched out 8 hr time frame, but it looks like they must use upper body techniques/strength if there's no kicks. Can't forsee many being in a good position to defend themselves based on that alone, unless you are showing them how to use whatever natural weapons they may have at hand.

Mike Dunn
Assaults on women rarely take place at kicking distance. Notice I said assaults, not muggings. Muggings typically involve a weapon and that changes the whole self-defense dynamic. In a male on female assault the most common thing is that the male grabs the female and attempts to use his size and strength to put her on the ground and control her. That said, what she needs most is basic grappling skills to neutralize the size advantage and inflict serious pain quickly so she can escape. The weapons she will use most will be knees, elbows, finger gouges and biting. The most important lesson in that self-defense class is how to overcome years of programming that "nice girls don't do that" and to REALLY defend herself. Ask the women in your life if they have ever been assaulted and how it happened. Be prepared to have a lot of pre-conceived notions shattered.

[sidekick]

Assaults on women rarely take place at kicking distance. Notice I said assaults, not muggings. Muggings typically involve a weapon and that changes the whole self-defense dynamic.

Interesting! I guess it would depend on what you mean by kicking distance. There are kicks that can be thrown from close quarters. Front stomp to instep, inside curled sidekick to the knee (Hapkido), front snap kick (picked up in the air), front sidekick rake to shin, sidekick to ankle.
As for muggings involving a weapon. The difference between both lies only in property being taken. In both instances, an assualt has taken place and it can be with or without a weapon.

I agree with the use of knees, elbows, eye pokes and even biting to a degree, but it's not prudent to rule out half of the body as weapon.

Mike Dunn

[Gae-Bek]

No disrespect intended here Gae-Bek but just out of curosity, what do you teach the legions of 19 yr old college women?

Well, I do start them off with a fair amount of hand techniques (with the understanding that doing so will not suddenly empower them to stand toe-to-toe with a larger, more-aggressive man). I guess you could say that I teach them how to throw a punch, just so that they can have some basic understanding of the mechanics behind it, and hopefully (as a result) have a better chance of knowing how to defend against it (I also tell them this). I also make sure that they know how to throw a palm-heel strike, as well as 3 kinds of elbow strikes. The goal of the hand techniques being to provide maximum damage at minimal risk.

I also spend a little bit of time on defense against wrist grabs, and various ways to do damage when confronted with one. Of course, the odds of some guy going up to them and grabbing their wrist to drag them off are minimal (hence the reason why only a little bit of time is spent). But the wrist grab defense comes into play more when they are on the ground, when an assialant may be holding down one or both of their arms.

While we're working on the wrist escapes, I also teach them to defend against a bear-hug from behind with no arms free, while being lifted in the air, (as this is probably the way most of them would be attacked). In addition, I also make sure that they know how to fall.

I have them do a great deal of technique on the ground (as most sexual assaults don't really happen standing-up). The first thing that they learn is how to escape from the mounted position (three ways), as well as a few other escapes to use from various ground positions (such as the guard).

Once they've worked these back-and-forth a few times, I have them line-up and turn-around, where they are promptly grabbed from behind and taken down (by myself and some of my Karate students) and put in an inferior ground position. From here, they must do their best to escape. I find that this is probably the most-effective thing that I have them do, as most of them are just laughing and giggling along, when working with their friends as partners. The laughing tends to stop once they realize that I don't let them go very easily.


removing the strongest part of a females ability to inflict pain and or damage i.e. the legs, puts them even further behind the power curve don't you think?

Well, they might have strong legs, but I'm more-worried about them having a stable base. In self-defense, you should plan on having 80% of what you do fail. A failed kick leaves you off-balance, and being off-balance usually puts you on the ground. Just because I teach them ground techniques, doesn't mean that I want them taken there (because they tried to kick) and to be forced to use them.



It's difficult to comprehend why you think it takes years to learn how to kick effectively.

Well...because it does. Experience is the best teacher. Most people (Martial Artists included) have only ever thrown a kick in a controlled environment. I think that a self-defense situation would be the wrong time to find-out "if" your kicks work, or not (kicking air tends not to tell us that). There's plenty of other things that you could do that aren't as risky. And even if you do happen to land a kick, the chances of your opponent getting a hold of it are still pretty good.

[sidekick]

Gae-Bek, thanks for the reply. Understand where your coming from and lets just say that we agree to disagree. In an 8 to 12 hour time frame stretched out, it's not really enough time for them to develop any real physical upper body attributes. If were lucky, perhaps they can at least come away with a better awareness of how, why and where.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[DragonMind]

Interesting! I guess it would depend on what you mean by kicking distance. There are kicks that can be thrown from close quarters. Front stomp to instep, inside curled sidekick to the knee (Hapkido), front snap kick (picked up in the air), front sidekick rake to shin, sidekick to ankle.
What one would traditionally think of as long range, i.e. outside normal punching range. My intent was to point out that assaults on women are not typically launched like a sparring match. All the examples you cite are valid techniques but - with the possible exception of the foot stomp - require precision to be effective. In a self-defense situation, fine motor skills go right out the window, even for trained MAs. Teaching them in a short seminar is a waste of time and dangerously misleading to the student.


As for muggings involving a weapon. The difference between both lies only in property being taken. In both instances, an assualt has taken place and it can be with or without a weapon.

I agree with the use of knees, elbows, eye pokes and even biting to a degree, but it's not prudent to rule out half of the body as weapon.

Mike Dunn
I was making a distinction between crimes of property and deliberate bodily harm more than the legal definition of assault. Date rape and getting robbed at an ATM are very different and a woman is actually more likely to be attacked due to rape or domestic violence than robbed. Yes, a robbery is a crime of property but the intent is generally more intimidation than causing bodily harm. (And yes there are crimes where both are involved.) It is that intentional harm that I am concerned with. In those dynamics, the assault is typically violent and rapid. There isn't a lot of time for kicking before hitting the ground. Too many "self-defense" techniques have an unstated assumption that the attacker is going to do something - like grab a woman in a bearhug - and then stand there. Sorry guys, we may do that to one another but when a man assaults a woman it just ain't a wrestling match. I'm not ruling out anything, but with limited time and looking at the real dynamics of an assault, it is a grave disservice to waste time on things that would be marginally useful, at best.

Try this exercise. Get someone who outweighs you by 40 lbs or so to grab you and attempt to throw you to the ground without hesitation. Make sure they do it without warning. See what techniques you can actually use.

[sidekick]

Barry, actually I don't care for the foot stomp myself. It's just is a very low percentage, if at all affective. Not that bad as a distractor though. Had it done to me in the course of making an arrest on a female. She actually fractured two toes, but the pain didn't register until about 5 minutes later.

To be perfectly honest, many of the things being taught at short seminars are a waste of time and misleading. As you pointed out, fine motor skills are taxed under the real thing even for MA's. That's just another reason to employ and train the gross motor skills.

When a man assaults a woman it just ain't a wrestling match. I'm not ruling out anything, but with limited time and looking at the real dynamics of an assault, it is a grave disservice to waste time on things that would be marginally useful, at best. Try this exercise. Get someone who outweighs you by 40 lbs or so to grab you and attempt to throw you to the ground without hesitation. Make sure they do it without warning. See what techniques you can actually use.

We actually have done just that and you are right with the grave disservice to waste time on things that don't work or are marginally useful at best. Some people claim that they have or can make techniques work in that situation. Sorry, but their just fooling themselves. You are up and down so fast, your balance and equilibrium go out the window. Martial artists in general just have to admit, that there are some attacks that just cannot be countered.

Thanks for the reply
Mike Dunn :bow:

[twrekx]

When I teach self defence the first thing I do is ask this of the students:

"What is dirty fighting?"

Students: groin kicks, eye gouges, ect

My answer: fighting in the mud.

I first get the notion that self defence has rules out of thier heads. Then processed to teach the groin kicks and eye gouges. I have the ladies empty thier purces and show them how to use the stuff they carry with them every day, ie combs, books and newspapers.

I try to make all the techniques easy to learn and most importantly remember. I teach though constant repition so if the situation arises and the adrenaline hits, they have at least a fighting chance to remember what they were taught.

[Jack Stay]

When I teach self defence the first thing I do is ask this of the students:

"What is dirty fighting?"

Students: groin kicks, eye gouges, ect

My answer: fighting in the mud.

I first get the notion that self defence has rules out of thier heads. Then processed to teach the groin kicks and eye gouges. I have the ladies empty thier purces and show them how to use the stuff they carry with them every day, ie combs, books and newspapers.

I try to make all the techniques easy to learn and most importantly remember. I teach though constant repition so if the situation arises and the adrenaline hits, they have at least a fighting chance to remember what they were taught.

Interesting definition of 'dirty fighting' since jiu-jitsu does include groin kicks, eyegouges, skin ripping, finger snapping, joint cracking, and leg-breaking techniques as part of its normal repetoire of street fighting defense tactics. :burn:

I think you gave a very good answer. :)

Thanks!
--------------------
John 'Jack' Stay
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Rich Sylvester]

[QUOTE=DragonMind]So the story goes...unfortunately it has never been tested in actual combat because modern combat is not hand to hand, except under very unusual circumstances. QUOTE]
Very respectfully I submit that the concept of modern combat being clean and surgical is crap. I am a professional soldier and as civilians sit around the TV at night I direct their attention to the battle of Najaf currently raging. Our men are, as I write this, engaged in hand to hand fighting. I have many friends and aquiantances in Afghanistan as well and they are returning with tales of serious house to house fighting on the combat patrols and in the caves as we continue to hunt Osama. TKD is in its modern form a fantastic way to stay in shape if you only do what you learn in the Dojang. However, it is originally a combat art and the kicks are effective when done well. The round house or soundly delivered side/reverse kicks can bruise and burst internal organs. Kicks shouldn't be delivered in a street fight to the head because recovery requires a few extra seconds that may be required to address another oncoming opponent. Keep them low and fast. The troops are coming back wanting to learn more of grappling martial arts however such as Hapkido and Jujitsu for the combined strikes and throws. I personally combine Judo-Taekwondo. But back to the original point, hand to hand fighting is not out of style nor a thing of the ancient past it is going on as we speak. Pray for our boys over there keeping us safe and free over here.

Rich

[HighOctane]

I would say this
1. Taking your foot off the ground in a street fight is not that smart, unless for a VERY short period of time such as a low kick or perhaps a well placed kick to the midesection.
2. Taking both feet off the ground is asking to get tunnelled.
3. Trying any kind of spinning kick is not that smart unless the opponent is already kind of stunned, so as to "finish" them. Otherwise you turn your back to a opponent who is probably going to charge you the second they see an opening.
4. Most fights will probably end up on the ground. It is unlikely that you will be able to keep someone at bay for very long unless you are pretty skilled in TKD or another kicking art.

[twrekx]

I am glad you liked it John. My whole self-defence philosophy is do what you have to to get away.