Karate from Okinawa to Japan?

[IFKQ80]

Karate is a MA from Okinawa but is it still the same as it was before it moved to Japan. If an Okinawan Karateka from the past enters a Karate Dojo now days will he feel like a stranger or will he feel at home?

If you asked me that Question I would say? I think it did change.

1- The Karate Gi we wear is from Judo.
2- We call the stance, strikes, kicks and blocks with Japanese names not Okinawan “I think there are some differences”.
3- The dojos we train in looks Japanese “some at least“.
4- Karate being a Budo and a Do I think that’s typical Japanese came from The Samurai Bushido way of thinking.
5- Karate it self was called Tode.
6- Did it have any influence from Jujitsu which has been there for a much longer time?

I’m sure there are more examples I hope my point is clear, I practice Kyokushin Kai Karate and I don’t know if that’s only in Kyokushin did SoSai Oyama helped in making it that way or other styles in Japan such as ShotoKan which is older then Kyokushin or other styles back in Okinawa did the same?

Is it because the Karate masters wanted it to be Japanese more then Okinawan because of the Chinese roots in karate (Tode=Chinese Hand)?

Are those changes is to the better or the worst? Can we see it as developing Karate or as changing it to be accepted in Japan regardless of its effectiveness?

I hope to hear what you think about this Subject?

Ali

[bifcake]

The Japanese version of karate is definitely different than the Okinawan Te. In fact, it was changed even before it was exported to Japan. It was changed by Anko Itosu to be a physical fitness exercise to be conducted in schools. It was further changed by Funakoshi when he exported it to Japan. It was modified to accomplish the following:

1) The focus was changed from effectiveness to character building
2) It was modified to allow school children to study it safely
3) it was modified not to compete with native Japanese arts such as Judo/Jujutsu and Kempo.
4) Karate styles are a result of break away students who decided to do things their own way. I think the exception to that is Uechi Ryu, which is really a Chinese Kung Fu system (White Crane I think).

I would imagine that the 19th century Okinawan Te practitioner would find it very different from what it was.

If you want more information, read some historical articles at Fighting Arts Online magazine (http://www.fightingarts.com) and The Shoto Journal (http:// www.shotojournal.com) . Also do a search for articles by Patrick McCarthy and Joe Swift.

[Pero]

In my opinion karate is a lot different now than it was back then in okinawa. Now it is as bifcake said. It is characther building, a way of perfecting yourself. In the past it was an effective self-defence martial art. I think that the changes were to the worst regarding its effectiveness or not.

[Andrew Green]

You are aware that there are still Okinawan schools of karate?

Granteed most suffer a Japanese influence, but there is still a distinct difference between Okinawan and Japanese karate.

[Nyuck3x]

I am inclined to agree with all of what Mr. Olsen said with this additional
thought.

Modern karate as taught in today in Japan and the U.S., has adopted
a militaristic attitude. Originally, (prior to Itosu's plan to teach in the public schools) in Okinawa, smaller groups were taught and more attention
was payed to individual achivement. When Itosu and Funakoshi Sensei
started teaching on a grander scale, they needed some type of structure.
One where many students can learn at one time. Since many karate-ka
were just out of service in the war, many adopted military like training
regimine.

Pero, not all teachers teach the budo aspects only. There are still
some great teachers out there, you just need to seek them out.
I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there are many people
willing to share these teachings, but as Miyahira Sensei says, there
are no secrets in karate, just hard work. I believe in this whole heartedly.
There are times when I'm working out and I do soemthing and a light
goes off in my head. Something I did on accident or on purpose has
shown a new application. Sometimes the best teacher is hard work.

Peace

[TonyU]

Pero? :D Are you thinking in Spanish and Typing in English? ;) Just kidding I know you were responding to him. It's just that it means "but" in Spanish and if you look at the paragragh it would also fit and my Spanish kicked in before I realized it.
I also agree with you there are some good schools out there. IMO that's why a alot of traditional schools get a alot of bad rap it's because they teach and concentrate so much on the budo aspect that they lose the self defense aspect of it and the poor student then wonders why it didn't work on the street.

[Panda]

From my research, karate (at least Shotokan) was changed by Gigo Funakoshi to have a deeper stance, extra makiwara training, and different methods of kicking. Basicly, he changed it to what you see when you visit pretty much every american karate dojo.

Looks like Gichin Funakoshi had a karate more suitable for combat with shallower more mobile stances, faster, although not as powerful, strikes.

[bifcake]

From my research, karate (at least Shotokan) was changed by Gigo Funakoshi to have a deeper stance, extra makiwara training, and different methods of kicking. Basicly, he changed it to what you see when you visit pretty much every american karate dojo.

Looks like Gichin Funakoshi had a karate more suitable for combat with shallower more mobile stances, faster, although not as powerful, strikes.


I thik he changed more than that. He changed the katas, added some of his own, but more importantly, he changed the focus. That means that he took an essentially a combat oriented system and turned it into Physical Education. His son Gigo modified it even more by deepening the stances even more, and turned it into something even more different. The kicks became high, as opposed to low kicks of the original Okinawan Te, changed the katas yet again, etc, etc.

So now we're essentially left to reinvent the wheel. The stuff is all there, it's just buried in nonsense and that nonsense is taught with such ferocity that it's hard to shed it. This is especially true for the younger practitioners who started studying as kids and took a lot of the stuff as gospel.

[n2shotokai]

It is said that Gichin Funakoshi suffered from arthritis and when you see the photographs of him when he is older he is more and more upright as he gets older due to arthritis.

From the twenty precepts:
17. Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.

From this it should be understood that catching a glimpse (i.e. old photograph) does not tell the whole story especially if it is an advanced student.

Shigeru Egami was someone who felt it an obligation to carry own the original teachings of sensei Gichin Funakoshi. So does sensei Ohshima and they all practice low stances. Shigeru Egami and almost all of the shotokai have stances lower than what you would see from Gigo.

IMO to some degree all of the students of Gichin Funakoshi went off in slighty different directions although it was Gigo who is most known for it due to the time frame in which it happened.

[bifcake]

Strangely enough though, in his 1925 book, Funakoshi is much more upright than he is in his 1935 book. Pictures of Anko Itosu also show him in a more upright position. That leads me to believe that the low stances are a more modern interpretation.

[Chris Weisiger]

So now we're essentially left to reinvent the wheel. The stuff is all there, it's just buried in nonsense and that nonsense is taught with such ferocity that it's hard to shed it. This is especially true for the younger practitioners who started studying as kids and took a lot of the stuff as gospel.

Harsh words there. I don't personally think that any martial art is nonsense; you get out of it what you put into it. In this case, according to what you have to say, modern karate has more of a focus on self-improvement than on combat. Now is there anything wrong with that that it must be called "nonsense"? A huge number of people will never need the training they learn for actual combat; why not give them something that's useful in other situations as well? If you really want something more effective on the battlefield, then not only are there plenty of other arts available; it's also not terribly difficult to modify the modern karate methods to be more combat-oriented.

[bifcake]

You're right, Chris. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Do aspect of the martial arts. The problem arises when the Do aspect is being advertised as combat or self defense.

My personal view is that there are more efficient ways and perhaps better ways of self-improvement than MA and MA should be taught as combat/self-defense arts because that's what they're best suited for. Others may disagree about that, but I think that it would eliminate a lot of confusion if the Do aspect was taken out of the MA.

[n2shotokai]

Others may disagree about that, but I think that it would eliminate a lot of confusion if the Do aspect was taken out of the MA.
For clarification, are you suggesting we take the do out of karate-do?

[bifcake]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I think karatejutsu should be taught rather than karate-do.

[Jeff C.]

I agree with Alex. Funny thing is, (generally speaking) when you observe students of -jutsu arts, where the emphasis is on combat, you see the SAME character building as you do with the "do." You just end up with cool, calm, caring and humble people who can actually kick butt. :)

Ah, but you end up with less students. That whole money-thing rears it's ugly head, I'm afraid.....

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[n2shotokai]

I believe the missunderstanding is the way in which people use the word "do". "Do" as in karate-do is used in muliple environments, sport and non-sport. I have practiced karate-do for a few years and the "way" of karate that I was taught was pure self-defense. Fancy kata was not practised, tournament sparring was not practised. Any concept that had no benefit to combat was discarded.

Perhaps my way of karate-do is different that Sammy Sport's karate-do but they are both "do" IMO.

[Jack Stay]

I believe the missunderstanding is the way in which people use the word "do". "Do" as in karate-do is used in muliple environments, sport and non-sport. I have practiced karate-do for a few years and the "way" of karate that I was taught was pure self-defense. Fancy kata was not practised, tournament sparring was not practised. Any concept that had no benefit to combat was discarded.

Perhaps my way of karate-do is different that Sammy Sport's karate-do but they are both "do" IMO.

Hello Steve,

I think you've touched upon the 'do/jitsu' distinction!

If I may interject, please do not connote the Japanese term 'do' with sport. The do/jutsu distinction had/has absolutely nothing to do with sport.

Aikijitsu became Aikido during the Meiji Restoration in Japan (1868-1910) in order to prevent its outlawing (as the Samurai class became outlawed).

As an analogy, bareknuckle boxing in the United States was outlawed, and was replaced by gloved boxing. And gloved boxing is not referred to as a 'sport'. Yet boxers are highly capable of defending themselves in a fistfight, similar with Aikido, and Aikido is not a sport in anysense of the word.

Sorry to drag this on, but I must continue. Now with Ju-do, one of Dr. Kano's great innovations in his Judo was the inclusion of 'randori' over kata, something none of the jiu-jitsu styles could achieve. Judo allows the player to place 100% effort into his throw against his opponent without killing him, which is impossible in any jiu-jitsu style without killing or maiming your uke (practice partner). Even in BJJ tournaments, they've had to remove certain techniques, such as groin kicks or eyestrikes, inorder to compete. In jiu-jitsu eyestrikes are strictly relegated to kata!


Randori gave Judo sport-like qualities, which were emphasized in a shiai (contest). But Dr. Jigoro Kano only gave shiai a 3% emphasis in his Judo training repetoire. Unfortunately, as it turned out, in order to promulgate his Judo, Dr. Kano shrewdly had it accepted into the Olympics (a Western forum) and various nations have emphasized the shiai aspects of Judo a full 100% in some cases of training. This is where Ju-do is now being mistaken as a 'sport' (like tennis or hockey). Ju-do (Judo) is supposed to be a lifelong martial arts practice with physical fitness as just an incidental aspect, not a short term pursuit of mere trophies and medals.

Now to compare Karate-jitsu with Karate-do is comparing a training process to commit homocide with a martial training process as a philosophical way of life. Again, in my humble opinion, I have never considered Karate-do as a 'sport', though it allows one to compete in tournament.

If you haven't done so already, may I suggest a study of the book: 'KARATE JUTSU: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi' (2001) by Gichin Funakoshi and John Teramoto, for some interesting insights into the 'jutsu/do' distinction.

I strongly believe this recent trend referring to karate or Judo as a 'sport' is a destructive politically correct distortion. Karate-do is just a polite form of Karate-jitsu, neither one is a 'sport'.

Thanks for your patience.
_____________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.

[Jack Stay]

You're right, Chris. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Do aspect of the martial arts. The problem arises when the Do aspect is being advertised as combat or self defense.

My personal view is that there are more efficient ways and perhaps better ways of self-improvement than MA and MA should be taught as combat/self-defense arts because that's what they're best suited for. Others may disagree about that, but I think that it would eliminate a lot of confusion if the Do aspect was taken out of the MA.

I agree with your observation. I have a Nidan in Ju-do. If I want to learn how to defend myself in a nasty street fight, then I study Ju-jitsu (I also have a Nidan in Hakko-Ryu jiu-jitsu, very nasty).

It is a mistake to infer that 'jitsu' is equivalent to 'do', which is not the case. Nobody thinks that a shodan in Kendo will defeat a shodan in Kenjitsu, not for a second. A bamboo sword will not defeat a real live blade, that's all there is too it! You don't defend yourself with a paintball gun in a shootout with a terrorist! - just as you don't defend yourself in a gangfight using Ju-do, Aiki-do, Kendo, or Karate-do, of course you defend yourself with Ju-jitsu, Aiki-jitsu, Ken-jitsu, or Karate-jitsu.

This is not a case of simple semantics, there is an actual 'do/jitsu' distinction that is not 'sport', which we as serious Martial Artists must clearly emphasize to avoid a forseeable muddle and confusion in the Martial Arts.

Thanks!
___________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[bifcake]

BTW, someone mentioned boxing before and I would like to make a few points regarding that.

a) Boxing is indeed a sport. It's a nasty sport, it hurts, but it's a sport.
b) Re: boxers being able to defend themselves, yes and no. Boxing, as any other Martial Sport has to be modified for the street. You constantly hear stories about boxers (including Mike Tyson) breaking their knuckles in a fist fight. They're used to hitting with gloves, and thus they hit with their pinky knuckle, which tends to break relatively easily. Secondly, boxers are vulnerable to kicks and take downs. I am not saying that boxing can't be effective. I'm saying that it has to be modified.

This leads me to my next point with regard to Do vs Jutsu. Karate Do and Judo and other arts can be made effective, but they would have to be modified. For example, the kicks in karate-do would have to be low, the strategies and tactics would have to be modified and open hand techniques would have to be practiced and stressed. In Judo, the throws would have to be modified to be nastier for example throwing your uke in seionage with his palm up or doing o-soto gari while holding your uke in a guillotine choke, etc, blocks against punches would have to be introduced, techniques against kicks, etc. Once you do that, once you start modifying the art for street effectiveness as your main focus, rather than self-improvement, physical fitness, etc, then you're essentially transforming it into jutsu.

The techniques are there in any Do. It's the emphasis, the teaching methodology, the focus and the strategies that require modification. Those things are extremely important. Techniques alone are not enough.

[Andrew Green]

Boxing, as any other Martial Sport has to be modified for the street.

I'd still put my money on a boxer over a "martial artist" in a street fight any day

[bifcake]

I'd still put my money on a boxer over a "martial artist" in a street fight any day

You pays your monies, you takes your chances.

Personally, I find the whole "style vs. style" debate to be rather childish. I think more depends on the person, their state of mind at the moment how they train, what they train for, etc. There are some really tough boxers as there are some really tough karate players and jujutsu players. I wouldn't automatically discount one over the other. Alas, that's my opinion and I could be wrong.

[n2shotokai]

If you haven't done so already, may I suggest a study of the book: 'KARATE JUTSU: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi' (2001) by Gichin Funakoshi and John Teramoto, for some interesting insights into the 'jutsu/do' distinction.
_____________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.
Thank you John for the suggestion. I have always meant to get this book but have not. I take it that in essence jutsu has a meaning more of combat rather do as a way or what some people refer to as sport. I will get the book to be clear.

I would like to say that I have studied shotokai karate-do for about 30 years now. A style which shuns sport and competition. Training is purely for self-defense / combat. My instructor called it "do". I have called it "do" for 30 years. I gather from previous posts that perhaps this is the wrong word or it is a word used due to politics. Either way I am reminded of the word "gi". I have used this word for 30 years. Of course the correct word in my case would be "dogi" (uh oh, there's that "do" word). For years many people in the USA have used the word "gi". Is that right or wrong? The purpose of language is to communicate. When I speak to one of my buds do they understand my meaning?

My point is, when people in the USA use the term "do" what do they mean. I think the answer is there are more than one meaning. Is it realistic to think that the use of word "do" will be changed? In my mind the distinction between sport and combat is with the use of "martial art". Just my opinion but I feel combat arts should be called martial arts and people who practice sport should include that word for clarity, as in "sport" karate. Again, just my opinion, but I feel that the origins of the art is combat and if you are practicing something different then you should call it what it is.

Disclaimer: No offense intended to those who practice sport karate.

[Jack Stay]

Hi Alex,

I think we're both pretty close to the same issue.

As soon as you modify a Ju-do throw to make it nastier, you've re-invented ju-jitsu!

Dr. Jigoro Kano developed Ju-do from Ju-jitsu; Dr. Kano took all the nasty throws out of Ju-jitsu and developed Ju-do. Judo is just a humane form of Ju-jitsu.

The Meiji Restoration demanded the removal of all the arts connected with the Samurai, so 'Do' replaced 'Jitsu', the killing, maiming, combat techniques of jitsu was softened into DO.

The thinking is that a highly trained Judoka (Godan and above) need only modify his Judo slightly to become Jujitsu. Yes, modification would be needed, a Kendoist would have to replace his bamboo sword with a live blade to become formidible again, kenjitsu; the karateka would only need to modify his techniques to become lethal again, and the Wu-shu practitioner would also only need a slight modification to practice kung fu again. That is the idea. But in my training and opinion, 'Do' and 'Jitsu' are not sports, they are different than tennis or basketball.

The martial arts became a way of life, i.e. 'Do': a practice of discipline, health, patriotism, stamina, philosophy, religion, literature, and good clean living through the modified combat arts. A lot deeper than 'sport'.

So I agree with you that a slight modification is all it takes to turn a 'Do' back into a 'Jitsu'.

Thanks! P.S. What is a 'guillotine choke'?
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA



BTW, someone mentioned boxing before and I would like to make a few points regarding that.

a) Boxing is indeed a sport. It's a nasty sport, it hurts, but it's a sport.
b) Re: boxers being able to defend themselves, yes and no. Boxing, as any other Martial Sport has to be modified for the street. You constantly hear stories about boxers (including Mike Tyson) breaking their knuckles in a fist fight. They're used to hitting with gloves, and thus they hit with their pinky knuckle, which tends to break relatively easily. Secondly, boxers are vulnerable to kicks and take downs. I am not saying that boxing can't be effective. I'm saying that it has to be modified.

This leads me to my next point with regard to Do vs Jutsu. Karate Do and Judo and other arts can be made effective, but they would have to be modified. For example, the kicks in karate-do would have to be low, the strategies and tactics would have to be modified and open hand techniques would have to be practiced and stressed. In Judo, the throws would have to be modified to be nastier for example throwing your uke in seionage with his palm up or doing o-soto gari while holding your uke in a guillotine choke, etc, blocks against punches would have to be introduced, techniques against kicks, etc. Once you do that, once you start modifying the art for street effectiveness as your main focus, rather than self-improvement, physical fitness, etc, then you're essentially transforming it into jutsu.

The techniques are there in any Do. It's the emphasis, the teaching methodology, the focus and the strategies that require modification. Those things are extremely important. Techniques alone are not enough.

[bifcake]

Here's an example of a guillotine choke:

http://www.survivalguide.com/photos/Curt&Jim1.jpg

[Andrew Green]

I wouldn't use that as an example of a guillotine, That's not to hard to get out off the way he's doing it, and he doesn't have the best leverage....

[bifcake]

I didn't say it was the best example of a guillotine. I just did a quick search to find a picture that illustrated it to give a general idea of what it looks like. You guys are a tough crowd. :D

[Jack Stay]

Here's an example of a guillotine choke:

http://www.survivalguide.com/photos/Curt&Jim1.jpg

Thanks for that picture of a 'guillotine choke'. We used that in my study of Kodokwan Jiu-jitsu (1969) and referred to it as a reverse naked strangle (i.e. Gyaku Hadaka-Jime).

Man I just gots to get betta at this internet thing. That was a very convenient picture! Thanks again!
____________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-jitsu

[bifcake]

Hi Jack,

I figured you had to know that choke. I also figured you knew it by a Japanese name, but I couldn't remember it for the life of me.

[n2shotokai]

I am sorry, but I just cannot resist. The caption on that picture should say "And this mom is how I lost my private parts".

[Andrew Green]

You pays your monies, you takes your chances.

Personally, I find the whole "style vs. style" debate to be rather childish.

You're right, style is irrelevant and a personal thing.

Training methods on the other hand are very important.

And simply based on statistics far more boxers spar hard and continuous then "martial artists". So I'd say that would be the safer bet.

Strangely enough anyone that trains punching technique continous in a full contact environment comes out doing something that looks a lot like boxing.... wonder why that is... ;)

[bifcake]

Once again, I think that equating a sport to a street situation is an exercise in futility. As I stated before, boxing has to be modified to be street effective just as karate has to be modified. That includes techniques and training methods. Bare knuckle punching is quite different than gloves. You also have to be aware of the takedowns and kicks that may present themselves on the street. Debating whether or not boxing as is, without modifications (as any martial art) is street effective is the equivalent of pissing in the wind.

[DuckofDeath]

I wouldn't use that as an example of a guillotine, That's not to hard to get out off the way he's doing it, and he doesn't have the best leverage....



These better?

http://www.grapplearts.com/PhotoOfTheWeek/Feb16to22%202004.htm

http://www.judokanjiujitsu.homestead.com/files/JJ_Guillotine.JPG

[IFKQ80]

Reading the past thread made me confused about the Do and Jitsu terminology, Here is what I think

Do = Way/path. In Karate, the connotation is that of a way of attaining enlightenment or a way of improving one's character through traditional training.

Jitsu = Art, as in Jiu-Jitsu (Gentle art) and there is a book called Tode Jitsu by Gichin Funakoshi.

* He has a book called “karate do” and another one called Tode Jitsu (The art of Chinese hand) so he used both Do and Jitus.

That’s what I think those two words mean, but if we add the Bu + Do which makes it Bodo to me it means:

BUDO= Martial way. In Karate, there is an assumption that the best way to prevent violent conflict is to emphasize the cultivation of individual character. The way (DO) of Karate is thus equivalent to the way of BU, taken in this sense of preventing or avoiding violence so far as possible.

So if you read the above you can see that Do has nothing to do with Martial arts being a Sport, because I believe if you take the bodu out from any type of Martial art then you end up with a sport. You train to compete in tournaments such as K-1 and gain titles and money of course; I believe that’s what you call a sport. But if you train in Martial arts and take it as a bodu then it’s a different thing you train to improve you character, mind, body and soul and of course with what you learn you then can defend you self, love ones and Country.

So that’s to me what makes Martial arts a way of life and not a sport, and I believe if you go back in time and ask Martial Artist why do you Practice it they won’t say it’s a sport, no it’s a matter of life and death!!

Finally I just want to say that Do means a way, Bodu means a Martial way and Jitsu means Art. I can’t understand why some people say that if you change Karate Do to Karate Jitsu then it will be more effective, from my definition I will say Karate Do is the Way of Karate and Karate Jitsu means the Art of Karate But what does that have to do with one of them being more effective isn’t both of them make it a Martial Art and non of them makes it a sport?!

I hope some one would explain what people are trying to say here or is it just different definition for one word or maybe even the wrong definition of it.

-Which Karate Style do you think is still a Bodu Karate not a sport Karate? If you ask me I think Kyokushin Kai Karate is a Bodu Karate? And the Knockdown tournaments we held is to prove to our self that we have the energy, determination and specialist skills to win in one of those Tough full contact bareknuckle Knockdown Tournaments.

Ali

[Jeff C.]

Let me sum up the -do/-jitsu difference by highlighting the first two training priorities of both, listed in order of importance:

-do

1. Character development
2. Effective self-defense/combative technique

-jitsu/jutsu

1. Effective self-defense/combative technique
2. Character development

They both have the same priorities, they just place a different level of importance on them.

Further definitions: "bu" is more accurately defined as "peacekeeping." "Jitsu/jutsu" can also be defined not only as "art," but also as "method."

"Ju" is frequently defined as "soft," but is more accurately defined as "flexible." "Ju" implies situational flexibility, NOT "soft" by any means!

Sporting contests are good exercises to prepare for combat, generally speaking. Sport can be considered just another training drill. I think the confusion between "do" and "jitsu" lies in the way people conduct their training. Many but not all "do" schools train in a way that is not necessarily applicable to modern combat, and "do" is frequently used as an excuse for inefficient/incomplete training. But many "do" schools DO prepare their students for the reality of combat; just because it is not the number one priority does not mean that they still don't accomplish that goal.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

Let me sum up the -do/-jitsu difference by highlighting the first two training priorities of both, listed in order of importance:

-do

1. Character development
2. Effective self-defense/combative technique

-jitsu/jutsu

1. Effective self-defense/combative technique
2. Character development

They both have the same priorities, they just place a different level of importance on them.

Further definitions: "bu" is more accurately defined as "peacekeeping." "Jitsu/jutsu" can also be defined not only as "art," but also as "method."

"Ju" is frequently defined as "soft," but is more accurately defined as "flexible." "Ju" implies situational flexibility, NOT "soft" by any means!

Sporting contests are good exercises to prepare for combat, generally speaking. Sport can be considered just another training drill. I think the confusion between "do" and "jitsu" lies in the way people conduct their training. Many but not all "do" schools train in a way that is not necessarily applicable to modern combat, and "do" is frequently used as an excuse for inefficient/incomplete training. But many "do" schools DO prepare their students for the reality of combat; just because it is not the number one priority does not mean that they still don't accomplish that goal.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Generally, I agree!
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Shorin-ryu Diciple]

My question is then, Is shorin-ryu an okinawan or Japanese style, I had always heard it was okinawan since it evolved from shuri-te which was the karate style of the okinawan ruling families

[Andrew Green]

My question is then, Is shorin-ryu an okinawan or Japanese style, I had always heard it was okinawan since it evolved from shuri-te which was the karate style of the okinawan ruling families

Shorin ryu is Okinawan.

Uechi, Shorin amd Goju are the main Okinawan styles (Isshin ryu too, but not in Okinawa...)

Shotokan, Goju, Kyokushin and Shito the main Japanese ones.

Miyagi taught in both Okinawa and Japan, thats why Goju is in both. But there are differences between the Japanese and the Okinawan versions.

[jabonn]

Yes Shorin is Okinawan. I think they would be very upset if they heard someone refer to Shorin-ryu as Japanese Karate-do.

Andrew provided the bases of the big styles in Japan and Okinawa. Remember this all Karate-do originated from Okinawa.

[TonyU]

Yes Shorin is Okinawan. I think they would be very upset if they heard someone refer to Shorin-ryu as Japanese Karate-do.

Andrew provided the bases of the big styles in Japan and Okinawa. Remember this all Karate-do originated from Okinawa.
Well "I" wouldn't be upset. But you are correct the Okinawans are very proud of their heritage and are insulted easily if mistaken for Japanese.

[BUDO BULLDOG]

The same evolution of the Okinawa to Japanese arts can bee seen in the Korean MA.

Okinawa arts, before the need to convert them to an acceptable form of public exercise, where martial.

Japanese arts post WW 2 has lost the majority of their martial aspect.

Korean MA is no different. Pre-Japanese occupation, the Korean MA where no different than pre-WW2 MA. Their present evolution follows the same track as the Japanese MA. There is more of a focus on sports and artistic expression. These arts are effective in self-defense but the martial emphasis is not a priority.

A fair balance of martial, sport and artistic expression can be found in the American MA. Actually I believe that the majority of American MA has return back to their martial roots without losing the charter building aspects.

Please note that to speak in such generalities, as Okinawa, Japanese and American MA does not do service to those arts that have maintained they’re martial and still have adapted to the modern times.

The bigger question may be, what are you doing with your MA to maintain it’s integrity and advance it’s progression for those that will follow you?
Ed Barton
AN Old American TKD MDK

[Steven Malanoski]

Hello,

In answer to what an old time Okinawan KaraTeKa would think of todays KaraTe, I will quote Hohan Soken when asked what he thought of what was going on in Okinawa when he returned from his long stint in Spain as a photographer,

It's KaJuDo!!!!!!!

[Azato]

The next missing link is in sparring the Japanese dont make as much contact thinking is it is disrespectful.

I am apart of shotokan and we have plenty of contact

[RRousselot]

1) I personaly believe the biggest thing missing from Japanese karate when compared to Okinawan Karate is the breathing, and the isometric type flexing during breathing in certian Kata.
2) There are some drills in Okinawan Karate fro developing the ability to feel your opponents body postion and balance while developing a stronger "Tandien" These methods of training strengthen the joint integrity and make tendons and ligaments more stable helping the practictioner able to practice later in life.
3) A. The next missing link is in sparring the Japanese dont make as much contact thinking is it is disrespectful. B. Then the Japanese do not grab to create off balance before striking. C. There are no sweeps in most styles although some modern American styles have put this back in. The teaching of large groups in military fashion instead of personalized small groups made it difficult to pass on these details.
4) The saddest influence over the Okinawan styles was WWII and the loss of so many major Sensei's during the war. When you concider that it was practiced for 700 years before Funakoshi introduced it to Japan.


Uh…..no, …..most of what you have written is incorrect.

1) Your opinion based on actually training in Japan and Okinawa? Only certain styles in Okinawa do breathing and isometric exercises. Those would be Uechi and Gojo and maybe one or two more. All anyone that has trained for a short time in Okinawan karate need do is look at the kata and the way they are performed to tell the difference. Japanese dojo tend to emphasize more “show” instead of “go” in their training. (meaning making a kata look pretty instead of studying the fighting aspects of it) I base my comments and opinions on training and living in the countries you speak of…..what’s your based on?
2) Can you elaborate on this?
3) A. That’s totally incorrect. Disrespect has nothing to do with it. B. Yes, they do. C. Again you are wrong.
4) Who would those be?

[SteyrAUG]

Is it because the Karate masters wanted it to be Japanese more then Okinawan because of the Chinese roots in karate (Tode=Chinese Hand)?

Ali

At the time (1920-30s) Japan was preparing for and in the process of invading China and they considered the Chinese to be racially inferior.

As a result Japan's new love "Karate" was made more Japanese and overt referrences to it's Chinese roots were eliminated.

[Gene Williams]

Uh…..no, …..most of what you have written is incorrect.

1) Your opinion based on actually training in Japan and Okinawa? Only certain styles in Okinawa do breathing and isometric exercises. Those would be Uechi and Gojo and maybe one or two more. All anyone that has trained for a short time in Okinawan karate need do is look at the kata and the way they are performed to tell the difference. Japanese dojo tend to emphasize more “show” instead of “go” in their training. (meaning making a kata look pretty instead of studying the fighting aspects of it) I base my comments and opinions on training and living in the countries you speak of…..what’s your based on?
2) Can you elaborate on this?
3) A. That’s totally incorrect. Disrespect has nothing to do with it. B. Yes, they do. C. Again you are wrong.
4) Who would those be?


Unfortunately, Rob, Mr. Mclean has left the building in a huff a week or so ago, the door barely missing hitting him in the butt as he left. Perhaps your post explaining his ABSOLUTE misunderstanding of both Japanese and Okinawan karate will bring him out of retirement...eh, maybe not. :bow:

[SteyrAUG]

4) Who would those be?

A LOT of proiminent Okinawan martial artists (along with a lot of civies) were killed during the Battle of Okinawa, especially around the Shuri line. Kyan Chotoku comes to mind.

Kyan died at the age of 76 from fatigue and malnutrition in the northern part of Okinawa in Sept. 20th, 1945 in the wake of the battle of Okinawa. His students say that he died of starvation because he was giving his food to hungry children.

By the way, love the avatar.

[Gene Williams]

Unfortunately, Rob, Mr. Mclean has left the building in a huff a week or so ago, the door barely missing hitting him in the butt as he left. Perhaps your post explaining his ABSOLUTE misunderstanding of both Japanese and Okinawan karate will bring him out of retirement...eh, maybe not. :bow:


Steyr and I cross posted.

[RRousselot]

1) At the time (1920-30s) Japan was preparing for and in the process of invading China and they considered the Chinese to be racially inferior.

2) As a result Japan's new love "Karate" was made more Japanese and overt referrences to it's Chinese roots were eliminated.

1) Some still think that way to this day.

2) Karate has never been that popular in Japan (mainland) and still isn't compared with "Japanese" MAs

[RRousselot]

A LOT of proiminent Okinawan martial artists (along with a lot of civies) were killed during the Battle of Okinawa, especially around the Shuri line. Kyan Chotoku comes to mind.

Kyan died at the age of 76 from fatigue and malnutrition in the northern part of Okinawa in Sept. 20th, 1945 in the wake of the battle of Okinawa. His students say that he died of starvation because he was giving his food to hungry children.

By the way, love the avatar.

I am pretty familiar with Okinawan history.....
Which proiminent ones actually died "during" the battle?

[RRousselot]

Unfortunately, Rob, Mr. Mclean has left the building in a huff a week or so ago, the door barely missing hitting him in the butt as he left. Perhaps your post explaining his ABSOLUTE misunderstanding of both Japanese and Okinawan karate will bring him out of retirement...eh, maybe not. :bow:

Gene,

Thanks.
Didn't know he had left.
If he comes back that'll mean more "work" for me since I will have to correct more inaccurate posts by him.

[SteyrAUG]

I am pretty familiar with Okinawan history.....
Which proiminent ones actually died "during" the battle?

I believe there were a couple, but I'd have to look it up. Top o my head memory is fuzzy.

As much as US Marines tried NOT to target Okinawan civies it was still a pretty small island. I'd imagine a lot of up an commers were killed at teh time. In fact it may be a saving grace that men like Mabuni and Funakoshi went to Japan because they may not have made it in Okinawa.

[RRousselot]

I believe there were a couple, but I'd have to look it up. Top o my head memory is fuzzy.

1) As much as US Marines tried NOT to target Okinawan civies it was still a pretty small island.
2) I'd imagine a lot of up an commers were killed at teh time.
In fact it may be a saving grace that men like Mabuni and Funakoshi went to Japan because they may not have made it in Okinawa.

Well you went from saying:

A LOT of proiminent Okinawan martial artists (along with a lot of civies) were killed during the Battle of Okinawa......

to saying:

I believe there were a couple....

There is a big difference between a lot and a couple.

1) The US Navy bombed the hell out of Okinawa. If you look at the stats it doesn't seem like they tried to distinguish between civilian and military.

2) That's your speculation based on......?



Japanese human losses were enormous: 107,539 soldiers killed and 23,764 sealed in caves or buried by the Japanese themselves; 10,755 captured or surrendered. The Japanese lost 7,830 aircraft and 16 combat ships. Since many Okinawan residents fled to caves where they subsequently were entombed the precise number of civilian casualties will probably never be known, but the lowest estimate is 42,000 killed. Somewhere between one-tenth and one-fourth of the civilian population perished, though by some estimates the battle of Okinawa killed almost a third of the civilian population. According to US Army records during the planning phase of the operation, the assumption was that Okinawa was home to about 300,000 civilians. At the conclusion of hostilities around 196,000 civilians remained. However, US Army figures for the 82 day campaign showed a total figure of 142,058 civilian casualties, including those killed by artillery fire, air attacks and those who were pressed into service by the Japanese army.

[QPQ]

I thik he changed more than that. He changed the katas, added some of his own, but more importantly, he changed the focus. That means that he took an essentially a combat oriented system and turned it into Physical Education. His son Gigo modified it even more by deepening the stances even more, and turned it into something even more different. The kicks became high, as opposed to low kicks of the original Okinawan Te, changed the katas yet again, etc, etc.

So now we're essentially left to reinvent the wheel. The stuff is all there, it's just buried in nonsense and that nonsense is taught with such ferocity that it's hard to shed it. This is especially true for the younger practitioners who started studying as kids and took a lot of the stuff as gospel.

I'm pretty sure that Old style Tode also had high kicks. Matsumura was known for his kicking prowess and flexibility. He could supposedly kick over his shoulder even when in a kneeling position. Chotoku Kyan a student of Matsumura was also known for his high kicks especially his jumping or flying kicks.

Being a former Kobayashi practitioner who eventually switched to Matsumura Orthodox I can tell you that we had to learn every kick imagineable, high and low. Low was emphasized for the street but we trained to have a broad kicking repertoire. High kicks have their place, but hands rule most confrontations.

Later...

[QPQ]

I'd still put my money on a boxer over a "martial artist" in a street fight any day


Many of the best karate-ka were accomplished amateur boxers first. If they felt that their boxing was superior they never would have gone on to become adept karate-ka (Mike Stone and Robert Trias come to mind), and instead would have relied solely on their boxing prowess.

But I do agree with you that most boxers are really tough, conditioned and can take/give punishment. Their hand speed and techs are second to none. The same can't be said for a lot of other modern martial art students.