In what MA is the bokken primarily used?

[Ju-Jack-su]

The bokken is a great weapon to train with. According to some books I have read, Ninja would use bokken rather than real swords because they are lighter, more manouverable, can be easily camoflauged and can deliver bone crunching blows. Also they were easy to make and cheap where as katanas were made by skilled swordssmiths etc

I have seen them used in Aikido, Jujitsu and Ninjitsu. What are the different types of bokken used for, there is that one that has the same proportions as a katana and there is that one that everyone thinks was never used, the "ninja bokken" which isnt its real name. I cant remember the name of the sword that the ninja used. I read that they would use katanas stolen from samurai often. So i suppose they never just used one sword.

shinobigatana and Bikenjutsu ring a bell???

has anyone heard of Genbukan Ninpo Bugei? this is what i am interested in studying. Can someone tell me the difference between ninjitsu and ninpo?

I am very interested in japanese history especially feudal times, including everything about Samurai and Ninja. I have read many books, but i want some proper first hand knowledge can anyone help me learn more? Maybe i need to plan an excursion to japan.

[The Nephilim]

The bokken is a great weapon to train with. According to some books I have read, Ninja would use bokken rather than real swords because they are lighter, more manouverable, can be easily camoflauged and can deliver bone crunching blows. Also they were easy to make and cheap where as katanas were made by skilled swordssmiths etc

I have seen them used in Aikido, Jujitsu and Ninjitsu. What are the different types of bokken used for, there is that one that has the same proportions as a katana and there is that one that everyone thinks was never used, the "ninja bokken" which isnt its real name. I cant remember the name of the sword that the ninja used. I read that they would use katanas stolen from samurai often. So i suppose they never just used one sword.

shinobigatana and Bikenjutsu ring a bell???

has anyone heard of Genbukan Ninpo Bugei? this is what i am interested in studying. Can someone tell me the difference between ninjitsu and ninpo?

I am very interested in japanese history especially feudal times, including everything about Samurai and Ninja. I have read many books, but i want some proper first hand knowledge can anyone help me learn more? Maybe i need to plan an excursion to japan.

We do use Bo ken in training as do Aikido and sometimes Karate schools. It is a cheap alternative to a full sword and the maintainace that is needed to keep the katana in good condition.

Ninjas used offcuts of another sword. If one became available then it would be cut down and used. If you are referring to the Ninja-to sword with the square Tsuba, then that type is more of a 1970's myth than the original swords of the Shinobi. Even though some Tsubas were square or squareish, most were oval. In the Royal Armouries in Leeds there are square Tsubas, but for a shinobi to use what looks like the ninja-to sword is a bit of a grey area.

Genbukan is ninpo. It is another school that sprung up from the Teachings of Takamatsu Sensei, along with Bujinkan and Jinenkan.

If you have an interest in the Japanese history goto www.hanako.co.uk as Paul Richardson from the Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo is well known for his research on history in Japan.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Are there any really traditional ninjitsu schools that will teach all the kind of things that ninja utilized. Like the eighteen levels of training:

for example
Inton-jutsu - escape and concealment
ten-mon - meterology
shinobi-iri - stealth

[The Nephilim]

Are there any really traditional ninjitsu schools that will teach all the kind of things that ninja utilized. Like the eighteen levels of training:

for example
Inton-jutsu - escape and concealment
ten-mon - meterology
shinobi-iri - stealth

Theyare more like add ons. Most will just be concentrating on Taijutsu where as if you need to learn ten-mon then look up book on meterology by the Met office and SAS survival techniques.

As you have said you may be going to one of the uiniversities dojo. Which one are you going to?

[Ju-Jack-su]

its not a university dojo its a dojo that is in the same town. heres the website

http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

after u do the beginning phase u can choose which disipline u want to study, which seems good. You can do a ninpo one which is the one i want to do, or u can do a jujitsu one, which i dont want to do as i have done jujitsu and wish to change.

[The Nephilim]

its not a university dojo its a dojo that is in the same town. heres the website

http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

after u do the beginning phase u can choose which disipline u want to study, which seems good. You can do a ninpo one which is the one i want to do, or u can do a jujitsu one, which i dont want to do as i have done jujitsu and wish to change.

Give it a try. See what you think of the system and compare it to what you have learned previously. Even if you do not end up liking it, you have learned something new.

[Ju-Jack-su]

thing i liked about jujitsu is that it had an age restriction, so no minors with black belts for example. that used to really tick me off at karate.

[The Nephilim]

Same with me Jack. In our Dojo we have Black belts but they are seperate from the adults. It is more nicer to have them seperate as to having a 10 year old saying your waza is wrong.
:eek:

[Ju-Jack-su]

Looking back, from stopping karate (after about 4 years) and transfering to jujitsu 2 years ago was a massive step. It was so much different not just in techniques but attitudes. My karate had the kiddy black belts but there was a sepparte class for seniour people, but i was only around 16 wen this bothered me so I was doing both the class with the kids in and the senior one. I really am very fond of karate. It made me very flexible in my techniqyes and for my height and weight. Because i am tall my sensei trained me to become a good kicker to make use of my long legs.

In jujitsu the sensei was quite terrifyign to begin with. He was taller and much wider than me and very sort of aggressive in nature, he teaches jujitsu to the forces so is quite a rugged man. but he was overly critical, he kept telling my partner to toughen up and to eat more because he is small and fairly skinny. and he generally made out that jujitsu was really for people that are big and wide and tuff. I am quite a timid person for my size and weight to be fair. But now that i have studied both karate and jujitsu i know of the martial art that i think would best suit me, and that is ninjitsu, as it seems to have elements of both in.

this is the website of my jujitsu that i did

www.atemi-jujitsu.com

it is specialised for street fighting i think, it lacked some of the things that i really like in a martial art like all the eticet, like in karate we would meditate before we began and we woudl have to speak a few japanese phrases. in jujitsu the most we did was bow and thats it. no counting in japanses.

[Jack Stay]

A bokken is the most realistic substitute for a live blade that could be made in early Japan, since carbon fiber wasn't yet invented.

When two Samurai wanted to test each others skill in the most realistic way possible, but where not particularly interested in killing the other guy, then the bokken was used. The bokken was stout enough, and handled like a real sword enough, that when expertly used, left little doubt as to the victor.

Yes, as with any other stout piece of wood, the bokken can break bones and sometimes cause a fatality.

Eventually the bokken was modified, some styles of Aikijitsu used a bokken with a leather tsuba, other styles used a smooth bokken with no tsuba.

The bokken is pretty much used universally by any style which incorporates swords techniques, or defense against sword techniques.

Bokkens are used in Judo for the upper dan level self-defense katas.

I've never seen a bokken used in Kendo, the shinai seems to suffice.
_______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Ju-Jack-su]

what is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu or do they mean the same thing?

[Jack Stay]

what is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu or do they mean the same thing?

To the best of my knowledge with the little experience I gained from a Ninpo dojo out in Milwaukee, ninpo doesn't teach things like wall climbing, or fighting with iron hand claws, or poison making, or stream crossing, as in ninjitsu.

The ninpo self-defense techniques are almost identical to some of those found in ninjitsu.
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Oz82]

Same with me Jack. In our Dojo we have Black belts but they are seperate from the adults. It is more nicer to have them seperate as to having a 10 year old saying your waza is wrong.
:eek:

Just say what I do; "My other waza is at the cleaner's!" :D

[Ju-Jack-su]

thats a shame :( oh well.

[kirigirisu]

Hmm.

I take it from some of the other posts you're the fellow what nearly got hisself brained with a rock on account of ignoring his instincts, as well as the fellow what read some of Uncle Steve's earlier efforts (Meh), as well as the fellow what tried a kurroty block before getting hisself Pearl Harbo(u)red by a triumvirate of miscreants with rocks.

Now that we've established that...

Okay.

First, what you need to understand is that NO art is going to instantaneously make you Real Ultimate Fighting Hardcore Warrior FLIP OUT Guitar Whaling Ninjer Super Sokey Guy, be it Kurroty (and its Okinawan antecedents both Karate and Kempo), various iterations of Jujutsu Gendai and Koryu, TKD, BBJ, GJJ, and yes, even Ninpo, Ninjutsu, and its illegitimate round-eye redheaded stepchild, "ninjitsu."

That's what years of work and dedication are for.

And even after that, your best strategy is learning how to achieve Olympian stats in the 400 meter dash.

Unless you've already had half-a-century's worth of "battle" or "experience" under your belt, your last name is "Ueshiba," your first name is "Morihei," and you are a living sword saint or buddha.

Please abandon any ideas of invincibility or immortality at this point.

Plus, your interest in all the movie Ninjer stuff about poisons and "Art of Assassination" stuff is troubling.

Perhaps that's why none of this stuff is taught openly anymore, if at all.

Can't have young, angry, impetuous kids reenacting their own "Columbine" whilst FLIPPING OUT and Whaling on Guitars and Ninjer Teleporting after their two free "introductory lessons."

Plus most competent Shidoshi and their Jinenkan and Genbukan Dojo-cho counterparts worth their salt'll probably sus that sort of predeliction out and do their best to sorely "disappoint" the underaged Uchideshi ;)

[Erik]

Remember, too, that sticks must hit hard to crush while blades can slice to produce cuts. The movement is a bit different.

Also, I know of at least one bokken jitsu school that exists in or near Monterey, CA with a branch in San Luis Obispo, so dedicated bokken-fighting arts do exist.

It's a good weapon, though I still prefer eskrima sticks from Bloodsport.com.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Hmm.

I take it from some of the other posts you're the fellow what nearly got hisself brained with a rock on account of ignoring his instincts, as well as the fellow what read some of Uncle Steve's earlier efforts (Meh), as well as the fellow what tried a kurroty block before getting hisself Pearl Harbo(u)red by a triumvirate of miscreants with rocks.

Now that we've established that...

Okay.

First, what you need to understand is that NO art is going to instantaneously make you Real Ultimate Fighting Hardcore Warrior FLIP OUT Guitar Whaling Ninjer Super Sokey Guy, be it Kurroty (and its Okinawan antecedents both Karate and Kempo), various iterations of Jujutsu Gendai and Koryu, TKD, BBJ, GJJ, and yes, even Ninpo, Ninjutsu, and its illegitimate round-eye redheaded stepchild, "ninjitsu."

That's what years of work and dedication are for.

And even after that, your best strategy is learning how to achieve Olympian stats in the 400 meter dash.

Unless you've already had half-a-century's worth of "battle" or "experience" under your belt, your last name is "Ueshiba," your first name is "Morihei," and you are a living sword saint or buddha.

Please abandon any ideas of invincibility or immortality at this point.

Plus, your interest in all the movie Ninjer stuff about poisons and "Art of Assassination" stuff is troubling.

Perhaps that's why none of this stuff is taught openly anymore, if at all.

Can't have young, angry, impetuous kids reenacting their own "Columbine" whilst FLIPPING OUT and Whaling on Guitars and Ninjer Teleporting after their two free "introductory lessons."

Plus most competent Shidoshi and their Jinenkan and Genbukan Dojo-cho counterparts worth their salt'll probably sus that sort of predeliction out and do their best to sorely "disappoint" the underaged Uchideshi ;)


LOL

with

"Plus, your interest in all the movie Ninjer stuff about poisons and "Art of Assassination" stuff is troubling."

please note that i am genuinely interested in japaneese history and just because I am, and I am young , doesnt mean that i am interested in the holywood portrayl of ninja and samurai blah blah. If this was the case i woudlnt be taking a 4 year university degree in computer science with japan studies. so stop being a terd.

[corsarius]

Ninja would use bokken rather than real swords because they are lighter, more manouverable,

I don't know about this - bokken aren't particularly light - in fact some jujutsu ryuha are known for their use of heavier than normal bokken for training purposes.

I've never noticed my bokken being lighter than a steel blade: good white oak is quite hefty.

[kirigirisu]

LOL
If this was the case i woudlnt be taking a 4 year university degree in computer science with japan studies. so stop being a terd.

Hmm. I've known plenty of comp sci majors with the Ninhongo obsession thing who were pretty damn clueless, so your aspirations at this point mean, well, no pun intended:
JACK :D

Talk to me when you've actually achieved your intended degree complete with the sheepskin, or whatever they print them on these days (vellum?).

At that time, I'll get on your case about your horrendous grammar and spelling, which, in my opinion, sucks TURDs. ;)

: ph34r:

er, I mean,

:NINJERS:

[Ju-Jack-su]

whats

: ph34r:

:confused:

[Ju-Jack-su]

whats

: ph34r:

:confused:

you just seem like some bitter old dude that hates the new generation. BOOOO! :bandit:

[Ju-Jack-su]

and why do you spell ninja - "ninjers" i dont even think you can say ninjas, the singular can also be the plural like sheep, you dont say look at those sheeps do you.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Perhaps you would like to share your age? And the martial art that you study, if you count clown college as a martial art.

[Ju-Jack-su]

these forums always contain at least one invalid like "kirigirisu" who make it unpleasant, sorry to rant on but you have insulted me to be fair. :rolleyes:

[DragonMind]

whats

: ph34r:

:confused:
Rather bad kiddie-hacker speak. It stands for FEAR (ph = f, 3 = E, 4 = A).

[Ju-Jack-su]

I don't understand its relevence, im 18 and I am not a hacker :confused:

[Jay Bell]

Bill...Jack...play nice, please. :cool:

[kirigirisu]

im 18 and I am not a hacker :confused:

Nope, you just spell like one.

Or more likely, like a young illiterate co-opting the hack3rz culture, along with hip-hop, kung fu, and kabbalah (or its "qu" cousin).


these forums always contain at least one invalid like "kirigirisu" who make it unpleasant,

Yes, such unpleasantness... not unlike the same unpleasantness generated by all the juvenile Uchideshi wannabes who insist on speaking out of their posteriors and take themselves waaaay to seriously ALL THE BLOODY TIME...


sorry to rant on but you have insulted me to be fair.

No, I've insulted your juvenile sensibilities.

And your silly obsession with ninjers and their fighting arts (hey, wasn't that an Uncle Steve production?)

And your laughable attempts at compensating for low self-esteem by taking yourself way too seriously.

Then again, being the oh-so-important age of 18, you've not yet learned to separate your sense of self from your ever-changing beliefs yet, have you?


Perhaps you would like to share your age?

Sure.

33.

Ooh, ancient, aren't I? BOOOO yourself, kid.



And the martial art that you study, if you count clown college as a martial art.

My farting in the general direction of your weak and silly attempt at taunting notwithstanding, let's just say it's one of the ones you've been nattering about with all the pretentiousness of a 15 year old girl on her first trip to Paris ;)

And as far as Uncle Steve is concerned, he should have held off committing anything to print for at least decade or so.

Thus, most of his early stuff is what the Germans would call "Mist."


and why do you spell ninja - "ninjers"

Because it's fun?

Because most of us what do study what you claim to love with every part of your body (including your pee-pee) don't take ourselves with such a miserable degree of seriousness found only in socially maladjusted illiterates hoping to use their newfound ninjer powers and "Ninjer Inflation Magic" to seek revenge on other socially maladjusted illiterates who've beaned him on the head with a rock?

Because it really torques the ninjer wannabees?

:D


i dont even think you can say ninjas, the singular can also be the plural like sheep, you dont say look at those sheeps do you

Ah, yes, he with the grammar "skillz" of a poorly educated spastic giving me a lesson on proper use of the word "ninja."

Oh, sweet irony :D

[DragonMind]

Bill,

Let's leave all the insulting out. It is more likely your message would be received without all the ranting and put-downs. If the young man is uneducated, a wise man educates him not berates him for his lack. Now, play nice or some of your seniors might decide to thump on you a bit.

[Ju-Jack-su]

"uneducated"!!! why the cheek of it. If i was uneducated I wouldnt be going to university! grrrr


:mad:

[Ju-Jack-su]

Bill, would you care to explain this recent post of yours:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6325

and how it proves that everything you have said to me is a reflection of yourself.

people like you just make me laugh out loud LOL LOL LOL LOL

[kirigirisu]

Oh, you mean my brilliant response to THIS THREAD (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6239)...

Ah, yes, the whole "humo(u)r" thing young, dedicated disciples of the Secret Shinobi Ways(tm) seem to lack entirely.

Ah, then again, being relatively new to the whole "Ninjer!" thing, you've not yet had the time to FLIP OUT over THIS SITE (http://www.realultimatepower.net).

"Ninja Jeopardy" is just an brilliantly hillarious interactive version.

Tends to cheese off young ninjer wannabee types who don't get that IT'S A BLOODY JOKE started by some dude at my old alma mater, UCLA.

(BTW, to the old-school posse, sorry for bringing up Hamburger's Folly again. I know it's been done to death).

And as far as "reflection" is concerned, it does seem like you harbo(u)r secret desires of becoming asian (hence the Nihongo obsession), but I'm really not the best model to follow.

I'm so twinkied out I'm the asian equivalent of Wayne Brady.

In addition, a single "LOL" would have sufficed.

[Ju-Jack-su]

yes
:confused:

[kirigirisu]

"uneducated"!!! why the cheek of it. If i was uneducated I wouldnt be going to university! grrrr


Means absolutely nothing, these days.

You wouldn't believe some of the idiots they let into university these days.

One of my friends who's a professor over at the School of Engineering was nearly driven to tears recently by the sheer amount of ignorance and lack of education in one of his lower-division freshman classes.

Loves the tenure, loves the research... lecturing lower div, though, is like pulling teeth.

Thankfully, most of the dimmer ones wash out within the first two years.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Some people (mainly the older generation) argue that the value of uni degrees are diminsihing now because more people are going. But shouldnt that be considered a good thing? that more people get the chance to further their education. Also there is an increase in the crappy degrees like film and hotel and catering etc.

I think it would depend on the university too. Not just anyone and everyone can go. You need sufficient grade entries to get into the good ones, for example I need to get ABB for my degree course.

But i think its good that more people can furthere their education, as long as they will actually do it and will be commited.

[Sgathak]

As a blissful a walk down Hamburger lane as this has been, can this thread die now? Its redeeming qualities already kicked the bucket on page 1.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Well it was good ol' bill that ruined it, he was making false accusations and insulted me. lousy bill.

[kirigirisu]

Some people (mainly the older generation) argue that the value of uni degrees are diminsihing now because more people are going.


No, they are diminishing because the quality of education folks get these days in preparation for uni is, for the most part, utter crap.

Instead of expanding student's minds, professors are force to waste a good two years teaching students stuff they should have already known as a requirement for entering Higher Education.

Frustrating thing for educators, tends to drive them to the nearest pub right after their last lecture.


But shouldnt that be considered a good thing? that more people get the chance to further their education.


Chance, yes.

Blowing that chance by being ill-prepared for it, no.


Also there is an increase in the crappy degrees like film and hotel and catering etc.


Ah, the "trade school" degrees.

Meh.


I think it would depend on the university too. Not just anyone and everyone can go. You need sufficient grade entries to get into the good ones, for example I need to get ABB for my degree course.


You can't forget things like "quotas" and "affirmative action" and other things angry young white men tend to argue about all the time.


But i think its good that more people can furthere their education, as long as they will actually do it and will be commited.

Which brings us back to you.

Commit and dedicate yourself to uni and/or the non-KJJR bit of Shoto Tanemura's org or its other -kan counterparts.

Until there's some indication that you've done so, it's just talk.

[kirigirisu]

Well it was good ol' bill that ruined it, he was making false accusations and insulted me. lousy bill.

Cry me a river.

If this is any indication of your strength of character, you probably won't do all that well in either uni or the counterpart to KJJR.

Buh Bye.

:wave:

[Ju-Jack-su]

bill bill bill, can i call you bill? u have to remember that some people just want to learn at uni, otherwise whats the point?

Your first post into this thread shows ur character, making false acusations, insulting me for no reason. What kind of character does that show?

[kirigirisu]

bill bill bill, can i call you bill? u have to remember that some people just want to learn at uni, otherwise whats the point?


jack jack jack, I'm gonna call "u" jack anyway:

Well, "u" have to remember that "wanting" to learn at uni and actually "learning" something there are two different things.

Just like aspiring to get a degree and actually getting one are two different things.

"im going 2 uni" is no indication of one's literacy.

A piece of vellum conferring a Bachelor's or Higher might be slightly better.



Your first post into this thread shows ur character, making false acusations, insulting me for no reason. What kind of character does that show?

Please indicate any "false accusations."

Although some of my conjectures may eventually be proven erroneous, they are based upon information that "u" "u"rself have provided.

As far as taking light hearted jokes about ninjers as "insults," it merely shows you have an inability to laugh at yourself and as such, should be taunted mercilessly like the silly knigget you are.

:wave:

[Ju-Jack-su]

No thanks, I dont really want to continue arguing with a middle aged man who is clearly going through a mid life crisis and feels that he must take it out on an 18 year old who has an interest in Japan.

So bill i bid u farewell and I hope that u can get over these unresolved issues about the younger generation being interested martial arts and all the other crap that u have been ranting on about.

As from now I am not looking at this thread.

Bye Bill

[kirigirisu]

Ah, what was that about "false accusations?"

In any case, buh-bye.

Good freaking luck, boy.

:wave:

[Nikolai]

I am quite frankly appauled. I do not wish to take sides in this but kirigirisu you have been rather childish yourself. He is not a child, he is as young man and you have no right to call him what you have, how dare you call him or anyone a "spaz" - You should know better being the senior. You unfairly put him down.

The bokken was indeed used in substitute for a real sword. They would also use the sheath as an "extra" tool. It was actually slightly longer than the sword itself so that it could be used for storage. The strap on the sheath would be used for many things too, such as a trip wire. Basically ninja had to use what they could in the best of ways, they were outcasts so it was essesntial for their survival.

[John Bennett]

I order Everyone to chill.

[SteyrAUG]

You guys are killing me, the correct accepted romanization is "jutsu."

Ju Jutsu
Nin Jutsu.

Please adjust. ;)

[SteyrAUG]

I am quite frankly appauled. I do not wish to take sides in this but kirigirisu you have been rather childish yourself. He is not a child, he is as young man and you have no right to call him what you have, how dare you call him or anyone a "spaz" - You should know better being the senior. You unfairly put him down.

The bokken was indeed used in substitute for a real sword. They would also use the sheath as an "extra" tool. It was actually slightly longer than the sword itself so that it could be used for storage. The strap on the sheath would be used for many things too, such as a trip wire. Basically ninja had to use what they could in the best of ways, they were outcasts so it was essesntial for their survival.



Knives have a sheath, swords have a scabbard or saya.

If a bokken ever was carried in instead of a sword (which they had and made) they certainly wouldn't have carried a scabbard with it.

The strap (Sageo) would never be used as a trip wire, something far more suitable that would actually work would have been brought along.

Members of ninja clans, being intelligent regarding MA matters, would certainly have used wooden swords primarily for training and real swords for actual use. This is because a real sword has a wider variety of applications in combat and otherwise. A wooden sword is a curved stick.

[StanLee]

I've never seen a bokken used in Kendo, the shinai seems to suffice.
_______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

A bokken is used in kendo for the ZNKR kendo kata. In fact the shoto (short sword) is also used.

[Nikolai]

Knives have a sheath, swords have a scabbard or saya.

If a bokken ever was carried in instead of a sword (which they had and made) they certainly wouldn't have carried a scabbard with it.

The strap (Sageo) would never be used as a trip wire, something far more suitable that would actually work would have been brought along.

Members of ninja clans, being intelligent regarding MA matters, would certainly have used wooden swords primarily for training and real swords for actual use. This is because a real sword has a wider variety of applications in combat and otherwise. A wooden sword is a curved stick.

Yeah I meant a real sword not a scabbard for a bokken. Why is it that Jujutsu/Ninjutsu are often called Jujitsu/Ninjitsu? In English spoken languages it would not be considered wrong because we do not have set rules for grammar. English is a descriptive language not prescriptive so it can be considered fine. :)

[Nikolai]

> The strap (Sageo) would never be used as a trip wire, something far more suitable that would actually work would have been brought along.

Maybe not as a trip wire, that was just something off the top of my head. But they did make use of it according to a book that I read. Maybe they used it for tying things. I am impressed that you know the name of the strap, I must say. :)

The ninja sword, or ninja-ken or shinobigatana was merely a tool, compared with the swords of the samurai like katanas and tachi blades. The female ninja are especially comical they'd throw cats at people :laugh:

[Oz82]

The female ninja are especially comical they'd throw cats at people :laugh:

Where would the keep their arsenal of cats? Is this where the phrase "let the cat out of the bag" originated? If they defeated their foe, would the poor soul then be considered pussy whipped? :confused:

The pubic needs to know! :D

[DragonMind]

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any sillier... :eek:

[Jack Stay]

A bokken is used in kendo for the ZNKR kendo kata. In fact the shoto (short sword) is also used.



I have never seen a Kendo kata. Though it does not surprised me that it exists. I've attended several Kendo classes here in the Boston area over the past few years and never has a Kendo kata been mentioned. I would sure like to see one.

A Japanese Hachi-dan (7th dan) in Kendo teaches at Harvard University and there is an active Kendo club at M.I.T. I've worked out in both places, and I've attended the Boston Kendo club awhile back, and again I've never seen a Kendo kata, or a bokken, produced.

Thanks for the infomation, this I must research!

Also, what does ZNKR stand for?
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[StanLee]

I have never seen a Kendo kata. Though it does not surprised me that it exists. I've attended several Kendo classes here in the Boston area over the past few years and never has a Kendo kata been mentioned. I would sure like to see one.

A Japanese Hachi-dan (7th dan) in Kendo teaches at Harvard University and there is an active Kendo club at M.I.T. I've worked out in both places, and I've attended the Boston Kendo club awhile back, and again I've never seen a Kendo kata, or a bokken, produced.

Thanks for the infomation, this I must research!

Also, what does ZNKR stand for?
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

ZNKR stands for Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei

Here is a link to the kendo kata and kendo kihon.

http://www.kenwakai.org/videos.htm

For many the kata is an integral part of kendo practice. I find it strange that if you have been to several kendo classes over the last few years that you have not come across kata in practice or word of mouth.

Your nana-dan (7th dan) sensei should and will know the kata. Perhaps he just doesn't teach it.

[Jack Stay]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for that link. It will help clear up a misunderstanding.

Those katas demonstrated in the film clips are very familiar to me, in fact I have practiced them several times with the bokken in my Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu and Aikido classes, never in my kendo classes.

They resemble the katas of Muso Shinden Ryu swordsmanship which we had incorporate in our Jiu-jitsu classes.

None of my Kendo classes ever came near those bokken katas.

The second series of clips showing Kendo drills and practice is all I have ever done in my Kendo classes. Probably why the Japanese 7th dan (sorry, not Hachi-dan) Kendo instructor never mentioned them or why I have never seen bokken katas in other Kendo classes or clubs.

Thanks again for providing that internet video clip, I was very confused for a second there. I have done bokken katas only in my Jiu-jitsu and Aikido classes.

Thanks!
__________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.




ZNKR stands for Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei

Here is a link to the kendo kata and kendo kihon.

http://www.kenwakai.org/videos.htm

For many the kata is an integral part of kendo practice. I find it strange that if you have been to several kendo classes over the last few years that you have not come across kata in practice or word of mouth.

Your nana-dan (7th dan) sensei should and will know the kata. Perhaps he just doesn't teach it.

[StanLee]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for that link. It will help clear up a misunderstanding.

Those katas demonstrated in the film clips are very familiar to me, in fact I have practiced them several times with the bokken in my Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu and Aikido classes, never in my kendo classes.

They resemble the katas of Muso Shinden Ryu swordsmanship which we had incorporate in our Jiu-jitsu classes.

None of my Kendo classes ever came near those bokken katas.

The second series of clips showing Kendo drills and practice is all I have ever done in my Kendo classes. Probably why the Japanese 7th dan (sorry, not Hachi-dan) Kendo instructor never mentioned them or why I have never seen bokken katas in other Kendo classes or clubs.

Thanks again for providing that internet video clip, I was very confused for a second there. I have done bokken katas only in my Jiu-jitsu and Aikido classes.

Thanks!
__________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

Hi Jack,

I think that I was told by someone the kendo kata (and principle of kendo) is based on Itto-ryu school of kenjutsu.

Perhaps you can ask your kendo sensei why you don't practice kata. I'm interested to find out now! :)

Cheers.

[Jack Stay]

Hi Jack,

I think that I was told by someone the kendo kata (and principle of kendo) is based on Itto-ryu school of kenjutsu.

Perhaps you can ask your kendo sensei why you don't practice kata. I'm interested to find out now! :)

Cheers.

Hi Stan,

Thanks for pointing out that particular school of kenjutsu because it was my understanding that many schools of kenjutsu contributed to the origins of Kendo, not any particular one; even though the M.I.T. Kendo club claims that it was Nakanishi Chuta who soley invented Kendo.

The style of swordsmanship which contained the bokken katas I studied through my Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu was Muso Shinden Ryu, which had nothing to do with my Kendo practice.

The coach of the Harvard University Kendo team is Professor Fumio Ueda, 7th dan Kyoshi. I'll try and contact him about kata training.

The Harvard Kendo website is: http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~kendo/

and the Boston school of kendo: http://www.boston-kendo.com/

hope this helps to answer some questions. I'll keep up on this mystery. Thanks for your information.
______________________________-
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
USA

[kenkyusha]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for pointing out that particular school of kenjutsu because it was my understanding that many schools of kenjutsu contributed to the origins of Kendo, not any particular one; even though the M.I.T. Kendo club claims that it was Nakanishi Chuta who soley invented Kendo.

Hello,

Those kata were designed by a board of folks from prominent ryu (based on the omote/demonstration stuff of each), and has since become the 'accepted' kata for non-style specific ken. Unfortunately, for the most part, mudansha in the 'States don't spend much time on kata (like Judo), but tend to go waza and shiai/randori. It's a shame, because the kata, while not the greatest things ever, do have some really, really neat stuff in them.

Be well,
Jigme

[Ju-Jack-su]

Where would the keep their arsenal of cats? Is this where the phrase "let the cat out of the bag" originated? If they defeated their foe, would the poor soul then be considered pussy whipped? :confused:

The pubic needs to know! :D

No it is true, In Dr Hatsumi's book he mentions how ninja would attach things like poisonous snakes to a chanied weapon so that when the ninja threw it the snake may bite the oponent. :laugh:

[Jack Stay]

Hello,

Those kata were designed by a board of folks from prominent ryu (based on the omote/demonstration stuff of each), and has since become the 'accepted' kata for non-style specific ken. Unfortunately, for the most part, mudansha in the 'States don't spend much time on kata (like Judo), but tend to go waza and shiai/randori. It's a shame, because the kata, while not the greatest things ever, do have some really, really neat stuff in them.

Be well,
Jigme

Thanks Jigme,

I had done enough Kendo to become familiar with it, yet kata was never mentioned nor have I read about a Kendo Kata in any of the textbooks or manuals I've studied.

Again, those bokken kata Stan generously provided had crossed my path before, as I have done similar training with the bokken in just that manner. But my bokken kata were totally unconnected with Kendo, it was all part of my Jiu-jitsu training.

I'm glad Stan brought that to my attention.
_________________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[SteyrAUG]

A bokken is used in kendo for the ZNKR kendo kata. In fact the shoto (short sword) is also used.


Well I'll tell ya a funny.

In my many years of Kendo we use a Bokken most, steel blades a LOT and shinai and dogu when practicing techniques in application.

[SteyrAUG]

Yeah I meant a real sword not a scabbard for a bokken. Why is it that Jujutsu/Ninjutsu are often called Jujitsu/Ninjitsu? In English spoken languages it would not be considered wrong because we do not have set rules for grammar. English is a descriptive language not prescriptive so it can be considered fine. :)


Same reason Tokyo was spelled Tokio during WW2.

Accepted Romanization. And jitsu IS wrong because it is NOT the current accepted romanization and that would be the "rules" you claim don't exist.

If you persist I will be forced to refer to Beijing as Peking. :D

[SteyrAUG]

> The strap (Sageo) would never be used as a trip wire, something far more suitable that would actually work would have been brought along.

Maybe not as a trip wire, that was just something off the top of my head. But they did make use of it according to a book that I read. Maybe they used it for tying things. I am impressed that you know the name of the strap, I must say. :)

The ninja sword, or ninja-ken or shinobigatana was merely a tool, compared with the swords of the samurai like katanas and tachi blades. The female ninja are especially comical they'd throw cats at people :laugh:

Yes the Ninja To was utlitarian.

Couple things, you don't pluralize Japanese.

Also while Ninja Ken is correct usage Shinobigatana would not be.

Kunoichi were not hilarious or comical.

I do not know what your source is for information regarding Ninjutsu but I'd suggest further research.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Same reason Tokyo was spelled Tokio during WW2.

Accepted Romanization. And jitsu IS wrong because it is NOT the current accepted romanization and that would be the "rules" you claim don't exist.

If you persist I will be forced to refer to Beijing as Peking. :D

In English Language you cannot say that anything is grammatically incorrect. You can only say that it is non-standard.

[Jack Stay]

Well I'll tell ya a funny.

In my many years of Kendo we use a Bokken most, steel blades a LOT and shinai and dogu when practicing techniques in application.

Hello Jay,

I would be very interested in learning more about your Kendo training. I never touched a bokken in Kendo, and used a live blade only for Iaido, which, again, had nothing to do with Kendo.

All my bokken experience was centered around my jiu-jitsu training, including a lot of kata similar to what Stan had shown.

Did you compete at all in Kendo?
___________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Nikolai]

Yes the Ninja To was utlitarian.

Couple things, you don't pluralize Japanese.

Also while Ninja Ken is correct usage Shinobigatana would not be.

Kunoichi were not hilarious or comical.

I do not know what your source is for information regarding Ninjutsu but I'd suggest further research.

Why isnt that funny? Are you especially fond of cats?

See this link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865680272/qid=1091050752/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_11_2/202-7132865-6185414

That is where I read about female cat throwing ninja and others.
Very good read.

[kirigirisu]

No it is true, In Dr Hatsumi's book he mentions how ninja would attach things like poisonous snakes to a chanied weapon so that when the ninja threw it the snake may bite the oponent. :laugh:



Why isnt that funny? Are you especially fond of cats?

See this link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...7132865-6185414

That is where I read about female cat throwing ninja and others.
Very good read.

Ah, "History and Tradition," otherwise known as U.S.G.P., or an Uncle Steve Ghostwriter Production.

As I said, one of his more pedestrian earlier works that should be taken with a salt-mine's worth of salt.

If you want some old-school Hatsumi-Sensei, get "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu" or its fairly decent english translation, "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life." A comparison of that and "Essence" or "History" will clearly show who wrote what.

Plus I was privy to a relatively recent "incident" where Soke had an... "interesting" ;) reaction when asked to sign a U.S.G.P..

Funny how certain people have wound up in "the short list" as of late...

And I maintain that Uncle Steve should have trained more and written less, at least in the beginning.

Bill Tai
Killing the dreams of ninjer wannabes everywhere since, well, since last week:D

[SteyrAUG]

Why isnt that funny? Are you especially fond of cats?

See this link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865680272/qid=1091050752/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_11_2/202-7132865-6185414

That is where I read about female cat throwing ninja and others.
Very good read.


With deferrrece to Hatsumi sensei, just because he wrote it in a book doesn't mean kunoichi were running around feudal Japan with a sack full of cats.

:laugh:

[SteyrAUG]

In English Language you cannot say that anything is grammatically incorrect. You can only say that it is non-standard.


Now I am forced to mock you.

Be good or l'll start spelling words like color and honor with a "u".

:D

[SteyrAUG]

Hello Jay,

I would be very interested in learning more about your Kendo training. I never touched a bokken in Kendo, and used a live blade only for Iaido, which, again, had nothing to do with Kendo.

All my bokken experience was centered around my jiu-jitsu training, including a lot of kata similar to what Stan had shown.

Did you compete at all in Kendo?
___________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

We have strayed from the "sport" Kendo back to a more true Kendo.

Basically we all agreed we hated the fact that we could score a killing move and some buttnoid could get a point by hitting us AFTER he would technically be dead.

When we do train with shinai and armor we have single point matches (most end in Ai Uchi) and we do NOT call intended targets. Also we have expanded legal targets to pretty much include the entire body and not just protected areas (welts are standard).

We engage with a steel blade rule. Basicallly if you get hit and it WERE a live blade and you would be seriously injured you are for all practical purposes - dead.

We practice theory and technique with bokken so we don't become accustomed to the light weight of a shinai or develop "flicking" strikes. We drill with both bokken and suburi.

We practice draws and complex techniques with live steel as well as cutting tests on techniques that have been properly developed.

And as part of regular practice we grab the shinai and armor and actually apply the techniques at full speed with true intent.

As a result of our unusual (sadly) rules of engagement we aren't permitted anywhere near a standard Kendo tournament. :wink2:

But that's ok, we are far more interested in learning the sword than having a trophy on the shelf.

[kirigirisu]

With deferrrece to Hatsumi sensei, just because he wrote it in a book doesn't mean kunoichi were running around feudal Japan with a sack full of cats.

:laugh:

Again, I reiterate: Uncle Steve Ghostwriter Production.

Now, I gots to give SKH mad props for representin' back in the day, yo, but it seems that Hatsumi-Sensei's initial American "rep's" enthusiasm and youthful exhuberance might have influenced any of the "tactical errors" he might have committed back in the "Shadows of Iga" days.

I'd lump the cats in with Uncle Steve's account of alleged midnight training sessions at the golf course which most of the Japanese Shihan (what have at least a decade or more on the first of the western practitioners (and no, Uncle Steve wasn't one of those, contrary to some of his earlier claims)) have rather diplomatically claimed to have "missed" during SKH's visit.

Props for creativity, though.

Bill Tai
Big bad boogieman and bane of misguided youth since, well, last week :D

[AstreaEvania]

What do you mean by Uncle Steve Ghostwriter Production?

Always & Forever,
Æ

[Jay Bell]

Steve Hayes wrote History & Traditions.

[kirigirisu]

Means something Stephen K. Hayes wrote and slapped Soke's name on (being Hatsumi-Sensei's North American "rep" back in the day, he had the authority to do so).

Hence, "Ghostwriting."

I think (my conjecture, only) the whole "Go dai" thing could have made Soke reconsider the amount of authority he vested in "Uncle Steve."

In any case, I don't think a field promotion to shodan after a 14-week intensive crash-course necessarily makes someone qualified to write an authoritative tome on an 800 year old martial tradition.

Brilliant, from a marketing standpoint, to get folks interested.

Up to them to separate "fact" from "fiction" afterwards, though.

Kyojutsu, straight up, fo'shizzle.

Bill Tai
The twade fedawation is naht a shawade-- one more reason George Lucas needs to be destroyed :D

[StanLee]

We have strayed from the "sport" Kendo back to a more true Kendo.

Basically we all agreed we hated the fact that we could score a killing move and some buttnoid could get a point by hitting us AFTER he would technically be dead.

When we do train with shinai and armor we have single point matches (most end in Ai Uchi) and we do NOT call intended targets. Also we have expanded legal targets to pretty much include the entire body and not just protected areas (welts are standard).

We engage with a steel blade rule. Basicallly if you get hit and it WERE a live blade and you would be seriously injured you are for all practical purposes - dead.

We practice theory and technique with bokken so we don't become accustomed to the light weight of a shinai or develop "flicking" strikes. We drill with both bokken and suburi.

We practice draws and complex techniques with live steel as well as cutting tests on techniques that have been properly developed.

And as part of regular practice we grab the shinai and armor and actually apply the techniques at full speed with true intent.

As a result of our unusual (sadly) rules of engagement we aren't permitted anywhere near a standard Kendo tournament. :wink2:

But that's ok, we are far more interested in learning the sword than having a trophy on the shelf.

I see that you do "funny" kendo. :t2:

Interesting though, as some "traditional" kendo people may not call what you do as kendo. But I shalln't get into that argument as I don't have all the facts or know where to begin putting words into writing.

Have you a site where I can visit? I'm quite interested in your practice. PM me it you feel happier. :)

[The Nephilim]

Is it me or are talking about Bo ken or a bokken?

While reading through ths thread, someone mentioned a ninja to. Do you mean the ninja to that was a figment of the imagination that became popular in the 1970's as the ninja sword? Mostly reffered to as the Togakure ryu sword, that long straight bladed weapon with the really square tsuba?

And i would like to thank kirigirisu for lowering a potentially good thread to the basement in inhuman trolling.

[kirigirisu]

And i would like to thank kirigirisu for lowering a potentially good thread to the basement in inhuman trolling.

Ah, as if "Jack's" many inane posts based on his grossly misinformed ideas of "Ninjutsu" inspired by his savage beating courtesy of miscreants with rocks didn't invite this sort of thing to begin with?

Sentiments like yours warm my cold, unfeeling heart, Willie. :D

Bill Tai
Taunting idealistic people who sympathize with misinformed juveniles since the advent of Martial Arts Bulletin Boards :D

[Ju-Jack-su]

Now I am forced to mock you.

Be good or l'll start spelling words like color and honor with a "u".

:D

I did Linguistics A Level at college its true! you cannot say grammatically incorrect in an English spoken language. Ask any linguist, but then I suppose Americans don't know much about linguistics since the dictionary was simplified by Noah Webster in 1827 from Dr Johnsons Dictionary. Whats the matter, cannot handle complicated French words in your lexicon. :cool:

An example

You would probably think that this is "grammatically incorrect"
- "I didnt do nothing" because it is double negation or whatever your americans call it.

It is non standard. Not grammatically incorrect because it still follows Subject Verb Object pattern.

I(subject) didnt(verb) do Nothing(object)

You can say this in descriptive languages, in prescriptive languages it is considered incorrect. Like in France, Spain etc where they have a spelling and grammar academy. Following on from this, did you know that English language speakers have far more dyslexics? this is because our language is incredably versatille and flexible. In places like Italy, France, Spain they can spell so well and accurately because their language doesnt have thousands of variants for each word. English Language absorbs words from other countries. For example Cafe, Managierie, and loads others (excuse my poor spelling)

see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar

[Ju-Jack-su]

Means something Stephen K. Hayes wrote and slapped Soke's name on (being Hatsumi-Sensei's North American "rep" back in the day, he had the authority to do so).

Hence, "Ghostwriting."

I think (my conjecture, only) the whole "Go dai" thing could have made Soke reconsider the amount of authority he vested in "Uncle Steve."

In any case, I don't think a field promotion to shodan after a 14-week intensive crash-course necessarily makes someone qualified to write an authoritative tome on an 800 year old martial tradition.

Brilliant, from a marketing standpoint, to get folks interested.

Up to them to separate "fact" from "fiction" afterwards, though.

Kyojutsu, straight up, fo'shizzle.

Bill Tai
The twade fedawation is naht a shawade-- one more reason George Lucas needs to be destroyed :D

How do you know all this stuff?
:)

[Ju-Jack-su]

Message to Bill AKA kirigirisu

I want to end any hard feelings as of now. I just felt that you unfairly voiced false accusations, and I think that rather than insulting me or mocking whatever, you should have merely corrected me with evidence e.g. a link or something. Sorry for arguing and saying silly things about you being old and hating young people but it was only in retaliation. Anyway, I am sure they are all wrong and that you are a decent chap.

Sorry again


Jack
:)

[The Nephilim]

Ah, as if "Jack's" many inane posts based on his grossly misinformed ideas of "Ninjutsu" inspired by his savage beating courtesy of miscreants with rocks didn't invite this sort of thing to begin with?

Sentiments like yours warm my cold, unfeeling heart, Willie. :D

Bill Tai
Taunting idealistic people who sympathize with misinformed juveniles since the advent of Martial Arts Bulletin Boards :D

Slamming misinformed people is not a good way to teach. Just for the sake that you know everything and you are on a level with Kimpatsu in IQ, it is not good to go round playing the game of "You are the f*ckwit".

Is Jack that does not know everything about ninpo he is asking questions. You on the other hand are just out to cause any negative arrogance towards Jack. Yes he is mis-informed, but by asking questions he will get to know the reality from the Koga Ryu finction.

And please, do not call me 'Willie', either use my full name that I use or do not bother using it at all. As I do not know you, you do not have that right to call me by that name.

Jack, if you wish to learn history of Japan and the ninja side of their culture, ask people like Ralph Severe, Dale Seago, Don Roley ETC. They may be Bujinkan, but the history is correct about the kans.

[Keegs]

Haha this thread is nuts. I didn't want to contribute, I just...felt...com...pelled...

Ok the English lessons are funny - I don't have a problem with either one, I get yer points...
Sometimes, on some computer programs or websites when you select your language, you have a couple of choices:

English - UK
English - US

You two are showing us why that is! :laugh:

As for the Stephen K Hayes - I remember reading those when I was around 12-14. I took those as gospel then! I was an ambitious pre-teen with grand designs of becoming a shadow warrior! It's amusing to me because I haven't seen any of his books since then, and it brought back some memories of my buddy and me. We tried to build one of those ninja-shelters in the ground. (You know, the ones that have the tube that you can breath through sticking up out the ground). Funny thing about that was, none of the ninja stealth skills that I learned from that book saved me from the irate parents...

[DragonMind]

http://www.skhquest.com/

[SteyrAUG]

I see that you do "funny" kendo. :t2:

Interesting though, as some "traditional" kendo people may not call what you do as kendo. But I shalln't get into that argument as I don't have all the facts or know where to begin putting words into writing.

Have you a site where I can visit? I'm quite interested in your practice. PM me it you feel happier. :)


No we don't have a site. In fact the stated goal of our association is a non commercial (which means no funding) approach to the martial arts.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Haha this thread is nuts. I didn't want to contribute, I just...felt...com...pelled...

Ok the English lessons are funny - I don't have a problem with either one, I get yer points...
Sometimes, on some computer programs or websites when you select your language, you have a couple of choices:

English - UK
English - US

You two are showing us why that is! :laugh:

As for the Stephen K Hayes - I remember reading those when I was around 12-14. I took those as gospel then! I was an ambitious pre-teen with grand designs of becoming a shadow warrior! It's amusing to me because I haven't seen any of his books since then, and it brought back some memories of my buddy and me. We tried to build one of those ninja-shelters in the ground. (You know, the ones that have the tube that you can breath through sticking up out the ground). Funny thing about that was, none of the ninja stealth skills that I learned from that book saved me from the irate parents...


So are all the points made in stephen k hayes and Dr Whats his face all a load of crap??

[SteyrAUG]

I did Linguistics A Level at college its true! you cannot say grammatically incorrect in an English spoken language. Ask any linguist, but then I suppose Americans don't know much about linguistics since the dictionary was simplified by Noah Webster in 1827 from Dr Johnsons Dictionary. Whats the matter, cannot handle complicated French words in your lexicon. :cool:

Nah, we just hate France that much. :D

Now be good or your tea is going into the harbor. :laugh:

And lingustics wizardry aside, I was again speaking of "accepted Romanization." Maybe Webster can help you look that one up. ;)


Jitsu is NOT correct anymore than Tokio is correct accepted use.

This has NOTHING to do with linguistics.

Now if someone said I be going to Tokyo to study some ninjutsu THEN it would be an issue of linguistics.

And if you are not going to abide by accepted Romanization then I am going to just start calling it Ninjer Jitsoo. :whack:

[SteyrAUG]

So are all the points made in stephen k hayes and Dr Whats his face all a load of crap??



No but they aren't necessarily 100% historical fact either.

The problem is SKH was one of the first writers to reach a large audience.

If you want a more accurate look I'd recomend Ninja The Invisible Assassins by Andrew Adams.

[SteyrAUG]

While reading through ths thread, someone mentioned a ninja to. Do you mean the ninja to that was a figment of the imagination that became popular in the 1970's as the ninja sword? Mostly reffered to as the Togakure ryu sword, that long straight bladed weapon with the really square tsuba?


Uh, it goes back a bit farther than the 1970s.

Besides the fact that 1960s Japanese films are loaded with them I have seen 2 examples that are at least 200 years old. Both were in my instructors family sword collection (no he wasn't related to Ninja, I'm assuming they were somehow acquired and added).

I also have a genuine shuriken about 300 years old that he gave me (he literally had 100s of them). I'll try and snap a digitial pic of it and upload it later.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Nah, we just hate France that much. :D

Now be good or your tea is going into the harbor. :laugh:

And lingustics wizardry aside, I was again speaking of "accepted Romanization." Maybe Webster can help you look that one up. ;)


Jitsu is NOT correct anymore than Tokio is correct accepted use.

This has NOTHING to do with linguistics.

Now if someone said I be going to Tokyo to study some ninjutsu THEN it would be an issue of linguistics.

And if you are not going to abide by accepted Romanization then I am going to just start calling it Ninjer Jitsoo. :whack:


PAH! if i wanted to spell even worse I would look at a websters dictionary. How did he find 100s of skuriken?
I thought that SKH site was a joke at first looking at the first picture of him with the sword.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Also tell me about "Romanization". We were not taught about that in our syllabus. Another point to why the English Language is so stupid is because it has two parent languages doesnt it. Anglo Saxon and Norman French. Usually when two languages combine one dies off, but not in this case they just merged together and Noah Webster couldnt handle the extra words so made a Grammar For Dummies Dictionary.

hehe

[Ju-Jack-su]

only joking

[kirigirisu]

Slamming misinformed people is not a good way to teach. Just for the sake that you know everything and you are on a level with Kimpatsu in IQ, it is not good to go round playing the game of "You are the f*ckwit".


Ah, so this is a "you think you're better than everyone else" inferiority complex thing?

As for Tony, he could probably tie me into knots with his pedantic rhetoric, so it would hardly be accurate to say we are "on a level."

Hey, I "teach" by gentle teasing. If'n a potential "young grasshopper" don't like it, he's free to seek his misinformation elsewhere.



Is Jack that does not know everything about ninpo he is asking questions.


And I'm just trying to determine whether he really wants to learn or just wants to confirm his preconceptions.

There is a difference, you know.



You on the other hand are just out to cause any negative arrogance towards Jack. Yes he is mis-informed, but by asking questions he will get to know the reality from the Koga Ryu finction.


See last two responses.


And please, do not call me 'Willie', either use my full name that I use or do not bother using it at all. As I do not know you, you do not have that right to call me by that name.


Ah, I see I have besmirched your overblown sense of ego-- er, I mean "hono(u)r," bloody peasant that I am.

I humbly beg your forgiveness, Sir William. Now drop your panties, I cannot wait until lunchtime.



Jack, if you wish to learn history of Japan and the ninja side of their culture, ask people like Ralph Severe, Dale Seago, Don Roley ETC. They may be Bujinkan, but the history is correct about the kans.

Dale and Don, yes.

The bespandexed one has good info sometimes, though it's filtered through a rather... Tejan sensibility.

Bill Tai
Besmirching the hono(u)r of Britons with Seraphic aspirations since yesterday :D

[SteyrAUG]

PAH! if i wanted to spell even worse I would look at a websters dictionary. How did he find 100s of skuriken?
I thought that SKH site was a joke at first looking at the first picture of him with the sword.


The shuriken were passed down in his family. He has swords, armor and such going back to the 1300s.

[SteyrAUG]

Also tell me about "Romanization". We were not taught about that in our syllabus. Another point to why the English Language is so stupid is because it has two parent languages doesnt it. Anglo Saxon and Norman French. Usually when two languages combine one dies off, but not in this case they just merged together and Noah Webster couldnt handle the extra words so made a Grammar For Dummies Dictionary.

hehe

Romanization is the accepted spelling of foreign words which do not have a greek based alphabet. These would include Japanese, Chinese and Arabic.

It is similar to Japanese katakana in concept but it should be noted that katakana are more concerned with phonetic pronunciation than rendering.

[kirigirisu]

So are all the points made in stephen k hayes and Dr Whats his face all a load of crap??

Uncle Steve was young and enthusiastic and sounded off before he'd gotten all the info down pat, so he um, "improvised" to fill in whatever gaps usually result from a 14-week crash course.

He's gotten "better" since those early days, although some would argue that after the whole Discovery Channel, um, "debacle."

Hatsumi-Sensei's real works have substantially less "crap" in them. Almost none, in fact ;)

As I said, for some good "Old School" Soke, try to get your hands on a good translation of "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu" or its english translation, "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life."

For some of the newer stuff, "Understand? Good. Play" is fairly decent although there's a complaint floating around that the good Mr. Cole presented some of Soke's stuff out of context.

And the new one that was raved about in the Ninpo/Ninjutsu forum.

[kirigirisu]

Message to Bill AKA kirigirisu

I want to end any hard feelings as of now.


From my perspective, I didn't think there were any "hard feelings."



I just felt that you unfairly voiced false accusations, and I think that rather than insulting me or mocking whatever, you should have merely corrected me with evidence e.g. a link or something.


See what I wrote to Sir William, Baron of Northcote regarding my particular methodology.


Sorry for arguing and saying silly things about you being old and hating young people but it was only in retaliation.


Hey, sorry if you took what I consider light-hearted joking as an attack.

There's lots of stuff that text doesn't properly convey.


Anyway, I am sure they are all wrong and that you are a decent chap.

No, all those accusations are right on the money.

I also turn milk sour, eat babies, and listen to Celine Dion.

Bill Tai
Hates people who take themselves too seriously. Eats their babies, too :D

[kirigirisu]

PAH! if i wanted to spell even worse I would look at a websters dictionary. How did he find 100s of skuriken?


Shuriken, whilst not all that common, weren't all that incredibly rare, either.

Lots of "non-Ninjutsu" schools incorporate some form of "Shuriken Jutsu," although they may call it something else.

Serge Mol I think has a pretty informative book on Japanese weapons of old, and devotes an entire section to shuriken and the various school extant and extinct that taught its usage.



I thought that SKH site was a joke at first looking at the first picture of him with the sword.

Er... no comment.

[kirigirisu]

No but they aren't necessarily 100% historical fact either.


Anything early SKH, yes.



The problem is SKH was one of the first writers to reach a large audience.


The problem is Uncle Steve was extremely creative at "improvisation," probably one of the benefits of a degree in Theater.

Good for thespians vying for the Academy Award.

For historical documentation, not so much.


If you want a more accurate look I'd recomend Ninja The Invisible Assassins by Andrew Adams.

Er... no comment.

[Ju-Jack-su]

hehe your methodology is quite funny actually if not sometimes hard to understand :rolleyes:


lol

[SteyrAUG]

Er... no comment.


Andrew Adams book is probably the most credible for a general overview of ancient ninjutsu. It has the benefit of being written prior to the hype.

The problem is there just isn't a comprehensive scholarly work (such as those of Donn Draeger) on the topic in English that I am aware of.

But there is LOTS of stuff by guys like Ashida Kim.

Regarding Hayes, I don't think he set out to deliberately fictionalize things but I think it was more a case of him having a preconceived and heavily romanticized perspective of what he was learning. It's kinda like when Russians decide to be "cowboys" like in the American western films, they are just gonna get a lot of it wrong.

As a result American ninja are often the equaivalent of a Russian guy in a big hat and chaps sitting in Moscow McDonalds because cowboys eat beef.
:laugh:

[kirigirisu]

Andrew Adams book is probably the most credible for a general overview of ancient ninjutsu. It has the benefit of being written prior to the hype.


Yes, but it still had to sift through the sensationalized Japanese "hype."

Ninjers were the popular baddies in numerous Samurai serials of the time.

Except in that serial what Takamatsu and Hatsumi were technical advisors on.

Well, sort of, even in that one.

In some ways, ninjer will always be mammals who were TOTALLY SWEET and liked to FLIP OUT and kill people all the time, in the eyes of the hoi-poloi.

In any case, while it doesn't venture into Hayes Country, there are a few "liberties" taken.

Especially the bit about ninjers slicing off their own face if they fail to FLIP OUT and kill people all the time.

Otherwise, a decent bit of research if taken with some sprinklings of Sodium Chloride.



The problem is there just isn't a comprehensive scholarly work (such as those of Donn Draeger) on the topic in English that I am aware of.


Probably not.

Pity.

Until then we have to rely on stuff by guys like Don Roley who still refuse to publish their stuff in some sort of hard-copy format.

Hint, hint.



Regarding Hayes, I don't think he set out to deliberately fictionalize things but I think it was more a case of him having a preconceived and heavily romanticized perspective of what he was learning.


I am of the opinion that that was the source for his "improvising."



It's kinda like when Russians decide to be "cowboys" like in the American western films, they are just gonna get a lot of it wrong.

As a result American ninja are often the equaivalent of a Russian guy in a big hat and chaps sitting in Moscow McDonalds because cowboys eat beef.
:laugh:

You're forgetting the other 5 continents :D

[Jay Bell]

Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult
by Stephen Turnbull

[Ju-Jack-su]

Bill. Can you recommend any good books on ninjutsu? Have you read "Samurai Willaim: The Adventurer Who Unlocked Japan "

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340794682/qid=1091139060/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/026-2561256-8454067

That was good.

[kirigirisu]

Bill. Can you recommend any good books on ninjutsu?


I think I already did.

So did Jay Bell.

Even Richard "SteyrAUG" Meadows, if I'm permitted to call him that.

To recap:

Soke's books:

Hatsumi Masaaki: Ninpo: Wisdom for Life and/or Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (I think Richard Van Donk might have different translation)

Hatsumi Masaaki with Ben Cole: Understand? Good. Play

Soke's Latest: The Way Of The Ninja: Secret Techniques

There's another one written by a spanish practitioner what has lots of material on/by the Shihan, but I think it sold out just as quickly as it was released. Can't remember the title of it. Somebody else might know.

Plus the Genbukan have their resources, as well.

I do believe Tanemura Sensei has put out a few volumes on the subject.

(Note: Some of the above might be harder to find and kind of pricey.)

Don Roley has a few good articles online. You might need to pm him to find out where.

Turnbull, Stephen: Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult

He also has a newer paperback out on the subject.

And check out Andrew Adam's book as well, as long as you take it with a grain of salt.

And check out Serg Mol's book on the cool weapons as well, if just for the history.

Glenn Morris has some interesting books on "Ninjer Inflation Magic" a.k.a. the "esoteric" side of things that are a fun read when also taken with a grain of salt and a realization that he "puts the cart before the horse."

A little more plausible than some of Uncle Steve's books on the subject.

Despite the cheesy title.

Most are readily google-able or on Amazon.

Try Google (http://www.google.com) first.



Have you read "Samurai Willaim: The Adventurer Who Unlocked Japan "

That was good.

Nope. Can't say I have.

[Jeff C.]

Richard, you said "And lingustics wizardry aside, I was again speaking of 'accepted Romanization.' Maybe Webster can help you look that one up."

Have YOU looked it up in Webster's? They spell it -jitsu, listing -jutsu as a "variant." :)

By the way, Oxford spells it the same way.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[SteyrAUG]

Richard, you said "And lingustics wizardry aside, I was again speaking of 'accepted Romanization.' Maybe Webster can help you look that one up."

Have YOU looked it up in Webster's? They spell it -jitsu, listing -jutsu as a "variant." :)

By the way, Oxford spells it the same way.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu


Goddamn they're wrong too?!?

:D

And of course Oxford spells it wrong. Hell they even let Clinton go to school there.

[SteyrAUG]

Even Richard "SteyrAUG" Meadows, if I'm permitted to call him that.




I've been called worse. :D

[Ju-Jack-su]

On a different note, who likes the Eagles?

[The Nephilim]

On a different note, who likes the Eagles?


Is that the Eagles or the Eagles tribute band the B'Eagles? :up:

[Ju-Jack-su]

eagles as in hotel callifornia, take it easy, tequila sunrise and already gone etc

[SteyrAUG]

On a different note, who likes the Eagles?


And the nomination for Best Thread Hijack goes to... :D

[Ju-Jack-su]

And the nomination for Best Thread Hijack goes to... :D

Well i believe Mr SteyrAUG that i started this hugely popular thread off didnt I? Doesnt anyone like the eagles. Sheesh whats happened to this generation.

[The Nephilim]

eagles as in hotel callifornia, take it easy, tequila sunrise and already gone etc


Same as the tribute band the B'Eagles. Nope, don't like them. Next question.

[Ju-Jack-su]

Rolling Stones?