Bjj?

[IFKQ80]

there are many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu web sites out there, I would like to know if all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu? and is it all one Group with one President or is there more then one school of Gracies Jiu-Jitsu with different rules and techniques? if so how many Group is located in the UK? and which school or group do u think is the best?

I hope to get an answer soon?

Ali

[Cliff Hargrave]

there are many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu web sites out there, I would like to know if all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu? and is it all one Group with one President or is there more then one school of Gracies Jiu-Jitsu with different rules and techniques? if so how many Group is located in the UK? and which school or group do u think is the best?

I hope to get an answer soon?

Ali

Here is a good start:

http://www.bjj.org

All Brazilian jiu-jitsu can be traced to Helio and/or Carlos Gracie Sr. Some family dispute on who was the original creator but Helio and Carlos taught out of the same academy for many years. The family has split into many different organizations and some of their students have also split off in recent years. Even so all lines will eventually trace back to Helio or Carlos Sr.

[Jack Stay]

To examine some photographs of Helio Gracie getting his butt shellacked by Masahiko Kimura, visit: http://www.onzuka.com/graciepix.html

Scroll down half way to see a good photograph of Helio Gracie being thrown on his butt by Masahiko Kimura using Osoto-gari.

Then a great picture of Helio Gracie pinned under Masahiko Kimura with Mr. Gracie getting his arm cranked with an Ude-Garami (or what the BJJ people call a 'Kimura').
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Jay Bell]

hehe...well, I wouldn't get too biased over that fight. Though Kimura sensei was claimed the victor, it's been in dispute for some time. If memory serves, the match was some four hours...and Helio continued fighting for most of it with a broken elbow. The end of the fight occured when Kimura took Helio in a headlock...so hard that Helio began bleeding from the ear. The match was called moments later..

[Jack Stay]

hehe...well, I wouldn't get too biased over that fight. Though Kimura sensei was claimed the victor, it's been in dispute for some time. If memory serves, the match was some four hours...and Helio continued fighting for most of it with a broken elbow. The end of the fight occured when Kimura took Helio in a headlock...so hard that Helio began bleeding from the ear. The match was called moments later..


Dispute? I've been a shimpan (referree) for two shiais (Judo touraments) and from those clear black and white photographs, Mr. Helio Gracie had lost with being thrown with Osoto-Gari, then humiliated by being pinned like a corpse in a beautiful Ude-Garami (which the BJJ people seemed to have renamed a 'Kimura'???). HA! No dispute whatsoever - Gracie Lost!

A four hour Judo match? Never heard of such a thing. What were they doing, going in rounds?

I did get a kick out of those photographs though. :devil:
-----------------------
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Jay Bell]

*chuckle* You need to watch the fight clips...it's not as cut and dry. And er...it wasn't shiai point rules. This was a fight, not a tourny match or even a "judo match". It was not judo rules laid out by the Kodokan. It was based on submission, which never occured..

[Jack Stay]

*chuckle* You need to watch the fight clips...it's not as cut and dry. And er...it wasn't shiai point rules. This was a fight, not a tourny match or even a "judo match". It was not judo rules laid out by the Kodokan. It was based on submission, which never occured..

In National Judo competition, nobody submits. You are either involuntarily thrown for the full point, or choked out for the full point, or pinned for the requisite time, or arm-barred until either your arm breaks or the shimpan (ref) breaks the match and awards the point.

The higher up the ranks you go and the bigger the tournaments you compete, the rougher Judo gets. Ever see those mashed noses and cauliflower ears on those Japanese Judo players?

Elite Judo is as rough as professional football or rugby. Lots of broken collar bones, collapsed lungs, and concussions at the Nationals in Chicago or Scottsdale Arizona (I spent two days in hospital with a minor concussion). My injuries prevent me from competing or else I wouldn't mind going to a tournament or two. (plus I'm fed up with Judo politics).

The Marqui de Queensbury rules only apply to the local Judo tournaments for the kyu players. After 2nd dan, things get rough. Nothing new under the sun with Brazilian Ju-jitsu.
____________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Jay Bell]

Right okay...but it was not a Judo competition...I said that. Here is the story:

Ultimate Fight in Brazil - 1951

Kimura became the All Japan Open Weight Judo Champion at age 20. He maintained this title for 13 years without suffering a single defeat during this period. In 1950 he left judo to become a professional Judoka and wrestler. In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight.

Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, braking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!

Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.

During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage (one arm shoulder throw), osoto-gari (major outer reap), and harai-goshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm bar) (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.

Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win.

...and my mistake. The match lasted 2 hours, 10 minutes.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Why the he** are you guys hijacking this thread? Jack are you one of those Anti-BJJ guys too? Trying to get a little jab in? Let me guess, you are a judo black belt, you think it's all the same thing, but you have never rolled with a BJJ black belt? Am I right?


In National Judo competition, nobody submits. You are either involuntarily thrown for the full point, or choked out for the full point, or pinned for the requisite time, or arm-barred until either your arm breaks or the shimpan (ref) breaks the match and awards the point.

Gee that sounds real cool, such a shame it's not true. Nobody submits? I have seen countless tapes of National and International matches with people tapping like drummers. Sure there are stubborn folks that get choked out or hurt but they are far from the norm.

Jay, the match with Kimura was 13 minutes. It was ten minute rounds, and Carlos threw in the towel in the second round. Get ahold of tape 4 from the Gracie Advanced series Rorion put out and it is an interview with Helio. He describes the match. The four hour fight was a vale tudo match against a former student named Santana.

[Jack Stay]

Interesting article. Thanks! I knew the arm bar was an ude-garami from the photograph. Also, just FYI, the Judo choke: Sankaku Juji-Jime, is appropriately named Naked Hell Strangle.

I thought a four hour match was a bit long.

Thanks again for this info.
_________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.


Right okay...but it was not a Judo competition...I said that. Here is the story:

Ultimate Fight in Brazil - 1951

Kimura became the All Japan Open Weight Judo Champion at age 20. He maintained this title for 13 years without suffering a single defeat during this period. In 1950 he left judo to become a professional Judoka and wrestler. In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight.

Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, braking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!

Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.

During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage (one arm shoulder throw), osoto-gari (major outer reap), and harai-goshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm bar) (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.

Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win.

...and my mistake. The match lasted 2 hours, 10 minutes.

[Jack Stay]

Hi Cliff,

No, I am not a BJJ hater. I am a 'let's prostitute the martial arts' hater.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has some good street fighting technique, but bad scholarship and publicity. Again, nothing new under the sun with BJJ defeating all martial artists marketing strategy: Aaron Banks did it all before and better with his 1968 mixed martial arts matches in Madison Square Garden.

Also, tapping out at major Judo championships has always been frowned upon. Like shouting out 'Miaita' (I give up), also frowned upon, although it is done. Depends on how competitive minded is your dojo.

And yes, I have a hard won Nidan (2nd dan) black belt in Judo which I am very proud. I hang my Nidan certificate above my honorable discharge and college degree at work. And I feel that Dr. Jigoro Kano should be awarded a posthumous Nobel Prize for developing Judo.

I don't hate Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I just hate what's being done with it.

Thanks!
________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Erik]

Hi Jack,

I think you're missing an important point here: BJJ is not Judo. They are similar and quite complimentary (I train and love both) but they have different cultures and different rules. I still don't understand what you wrote about the referee stopping matches instead of a fighter tapping out in Judo - I've tapped several guys in matches using something we call a "clock choke" in BJJ*.

In any event, the rules for competition are different, though the techniques are often (not always) similar enough that you can indulge in similar stuff in practice, especially if you remove the time limit for groundfighting.

The main difference between BJJ and Judo competition is that in BJJ you get points for positioning and you otherwise win only by submission, which to me is a more complete defeat for the poor looser. In Judo there is a judge (or three, as it were) who will disrupt the flow of the match and stand you up again. BJJ does not interrupt the same way.

Judo judge will also give you points for how well you do a technique, as opposed to working your way into position. In BJJ a good throw is just the start of a good match, whereas in Judo it is the end.

Also, there are many differences in training methods between traditional Judo and BJJ. To be honest, however, the training seems to vary significantly between Judo clubs, too. My main dojo spends about 75% of our time groundfighting, just because that's what we enjoy and our sensei "rolls" with it (forgive the pun, please).

I went to one in Germany while I was living there and we did 1/2 indoor soccer (for longer than an hour on some days!) and the rest was ONLY throwing. As a lowly green belt, I choked out their best black-belted throwers, got them in leglocks (safely, of course), and submitted them frequently with gooseneck wrist submissions from guard, which are illegal in Judo but very convenient nonetheless. With throwing, however, I got schooled (and learned many new ways to cuss in German).

BJJ takes the groundfighting of Judo and expands it briliantly. I would argue that is a little more practical as nobody will stop you on the street and stands you back up again like in a nice polite (and frequently very rough, as you mentioned) Judo match. At least, if they do so, it will be to break up a fight. As for practicality, there is a lot to be said for being able to finish off your opponent. Else you find yourself mounted or in guard wondering what else to do.

That being said, when I was a bouncer, most of my throw-outs ended with a takedown on the cement. Thank you Judo. But others ended with a rear-naked choke. Thank you BJJ and Submission Wrestling.

You would be well served doing both, as I have been. Might have a great time, as well, as I have.

If I were you I would just think of these two briliant sports as kinds of biking - there are road bikers and mountain bikers. The sports are similar but different. Many prefer one over the other and I am sure there are many arguements over which is better, though I doubt anyone bothers to decide upon an objective set of criteria defining "good" and "better."

Anyway, I'd urge you to enjoy both.

And as for a Nobel prize for Kano, well, that may be a bit much but maybe someday. I certainly have a lot of respect for the guy who managed to make a grappling martial art into a world-wide and Olympic sport. That's incredible. The same may happen for BJJ, though, as Helio, Carlos, Rickson, and many, many others, have put a tremendous amount of care into developing this magnificent sport. Give it time. Maybe give it a try, too?

-E

*From side control or half-guard (I forget the names in Japanese and let's assume we're on the guy's right side, so his head is on your left), you place your arm under his head and reach up to take your own collar, forming a loop around his neck. Then, free your leg (surprisingly easy once you have that choke started) and work your way around clockwise, blocking him from further rotating around

[rubberband]

Ali,

there are many Brazilian jiu jitsu groups... the Gracie family is the best known and it is divided up between the family members... Gracie Jiu jitsu is a trade name for a specific curriculum developed by Rorion Gracie and supported by Helio and Royce... the Carlson Gracie lineage teaches a different curriculum though based on the same techniques... Rickson has his own association... the Machado Brothers, who are related to the Gracies, also teach their own curriculum... Saolo Riberiero has his association... There is Alliance Bjj founded by "Jacare" of Atlanta Georgia who was a student of Hals Gracie... there truely are countless groups out there... and even some video trained frauds... this is not to mention the smaller independant Jiu jitsu folks from Brazil that were trained either by the Gracies or by the numerous Japanese who lived in Brazil and taught either jiu jitsu or Judo... it is important to note that there was a huge Japanese imagration to Brazil and that more than one Japanese fighter taught and faught in Brazil... then you have the Vale Tudo folks who have a connection to Bjj but really teach a different art... also it should be pointed out that Judo is huge in Brazil, so there are many Brazilian judo players who sale there techniques on the Bjj band wagon...

the simple answer to your question is that there are many Brazilian jiu jitsu styles and groups... only one Gracie jiu jitsu (tm)... there are many presidents of many organizations...

take care, steve

[Cliff Hargrave]

I don't hate Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I just hate what's being done with it.

Thanks!
________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

How? Sure BJJ has a non-traditional image and is a little rough around the edges, but what specifically do you not like? (and I am not talking about teenage idiots on the UnderGround that don't train and just engage in keyboard fights) Every BJJ school I have been to and every instructor I have met have been great. The training atmosphere is laid back and the mutual respect is second to none. I have encountered more smug, lying, fake, wanna be toughguys, weirdos, and flakes in my twenty plus years of traditional martial arts than I have even heard about in BJJ.

The BJJ revolution started the mixed martial arts sports here. No matter what anyone did before, it never caught on until a skinny Royce Gracie schooled a few people on pay-per-view.

BJJ caused many martial artist to look at themselves in a different light and make radical changes in their training methods. I am one of them. Not only is my grappling much better, but the way I train standup has changed too.

It's not the ulitmate martial art, but it sure can make a novice a good fighter in a short period of time. It also puts some respect back into the belt ranking system that has been ruined here.

Sure lots of guys that train in it do not know the real history of how it evolved from judo, but that can be said for ALL martial arts. Very few folks actually take the time to learn the real history of their arts. Most just take their instructor's word on it.

And finally, have you tried it?

[Jack Stay]

Hi Cliff,

Nice informative response. No, I have never tried Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, though I've watched it and researched it in various books authored by members of the Gracie Family, and viewed BJJ techniques and matches on video.

(I have an impish sense of humor similar to Mel Gibson which doesn't translate well in a type written medium).

First, mixed martial arts are really nothing new. Again, I closely followed as a teen and in my early twenties the mixed martial art fights put on by a huckster named Aaron Banks, in highly publicized matches in Madison Square Garden about 30 years ago.

There is a well known mixed martial art style called Jeet Kune Do, another called Ketsugo. These were all hot items in the 60s & 70s. I think Krav Magna is the newest mixed M.A. on the block. Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu is just more of the same, trying to be something its not.

Second, during this time period of mixed fighting styles I tried my hand against pankrationists, free style wrestlers, kick boxers, kung fu practioners, Sumo wrestling (sumo was taught in the 60s), kendo players, karate fighters and boxers. I was taught two leg locks by Bruno Samartino (he was a pal of the parents of one of my buddies). In fact, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu strongly reminds me of professional wrestling of the 1960s. Do they have midget BJJ?

I view Brazilian Jiu-jitsu as a true martial art, a true 'jitsu' as opposed to a 'do' style of combat. Yet I resent the circus-like atmosphere and the bombastic hype the Gracie family have subjected this style for their material gain; when Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is hyped as 'unbeatable' and another 'ultimate' martial art while their mounting losses to capable opponents has proven the opposite, then the Gracies have been exposed as another unwanted Aaron Banks, Count Dante, Fred Villari, or P.T. Barnum of Budo.

Sure BJJ has good qualities, now just get rid of the ridiculous multi-colored Gis, the little league politics, Madison avenue marketing methods, poor scholarship verging on propaganda, and the appropriation of pre-existing Judo technique as though the Gracies invented it.

Otherwise, if BJJ existed in the US in the 60s when I started, more than likely I would have been a student, but it offers me nothing new in terms of technique.
Thanks!
__________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.

[Jack Stay]

Hi Erik,

Thank you for that well written and interesting explanation regarding Judo and Brazillian Ju-Jitsu. I am very well aware of the differences between Ju-do and Ju-jitsu. (See my several threads for my long winded explanations).

I have had common experiences using my Judo against wrestlers, as you seem to have using BJJ against Judo. They are both two different systems with two different sets of rules and combat philosophies.

In Judo a take-down is worth nothing, but in wrestling its worth a point. In Judo you grab the sleeve, not the wrist or fingers, but in wrestling you can grab fingers and wrist. In Judo you hold down one shoulder for the pin (30 seconds to win), in wrestling its both shoulders for the pin (3 seconds to win). In Judo there are arm-bars used to win, in wrestling they have bar-arms used to just hold with no point to win. There are no chokes at all in wrestling.

It was almost impossible to continue the workout between well-meaning and curious wrestlers, since the rules and attitude of wrestling and Judo are so different. So it is between Judo and 'any' style of ju-jitsu.

Ju-do was developed by Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1882 as a safe form of Ju-jitsu. BJJ is still ju-jitsu. In fact BJJ is Kano Ju-jitsu. You might be interested in reading: THE COMPLETE KANO JIU-JITSU (JUDO) (c.1906, 1961) by H. Irving Hancock and Katsukuma Higashi. A good review is on amazon.com

Dr. Kano removed all the nasty dangerous techniques of his two styles of ju-jitsu to form Judo. Naturally Brazillian Ju-Jitsu is more effective, in some ways, against Judo since the BJJ players are using techniques specifically removed and forbidden by Dr. Kano when he designed Judo.

The point now is that Judo is not Jujitsu. They are two seperate systems. BJJ is jujitsu, and is no more compatible for a workout in Judo than is freestyle wrestling.

Dr. Jigoro Kano was a dignified man and understandibly dispised the commercial exploitation and circus-like performance of some martial arts practitioners. He protected his Judo from such sleazy and tacky showmanship. Unlike BJJ.

I do not think that Brazillian Ju-Jitsu will qualify for the Olympics any more than any other style of Jiu-Jitsu, such as Daito-ryu, Hakko-Ryu, Kodokwan, or Dan-zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu's because of their dangerous self-defense and combat orientation. Since one has to be still living as a prerequisite to receive the Nobel Prize, I can only argue that Dr. Kano would have had a good shot at receiving the award.

So yes I do understand the differences between Judo and Jujitsu, and my own Nidan (2nd degree) BB in Hakko-Ryu has complimented my Judo very nicely and has satisfied all my self-defense needs.

Thanks again.
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions, even if I think they are wrong :)

I still think you should try it.

[Erik]

Hi Jack,

I'm not sure I am understanding your posts correctly.



In Judo a take-down is worth nothing, but in wrestling its worth a point. In Judo you grab the sleeve, not the wrist or fingers, but in wrestling you can grab fingers and wrist. In Judo you hold down one shoulder for the pin (30 seconds to win), in wrestling its both shoulders for the pin (3 seconds to win). In Judo there are arm-bars used to win, in wrestling they have bar-arms used to just hold with no point to win. There are no chokes at all in wrestling.

I figured a solid takedown was worth an ippon in Judo - that's a KO, or a total win.

In collegiate wrestling a takedown is worth two points. Freestyle and Roman-Greco are a little different. I'm not sure of the points there though I believe they are worth 2-5 depending upon the quality of the takedown (anyone else know?)

Collegiate wrestling (remember, there are many types, including what is done in India, Turkey, and Iran) seeks to pin. Judo, as you mentioned, includes submissions. BJJ does not include pins (unfortunately, as I have much better luck holding a guy down than finishing him off).

Submission Wrestling and Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling include submissions. There's even a Three Stooges episode where Curly gets anklelocked and only gets out of the ring because a woman in the front row was wearing "Wild Hyacynth" perfume. Don't ask me... it's the Three Stooges. But I digress....



Ju-do was developed by Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1882 as a safe form of Ju-jitsu. BJJ is still ju-jitsu. In fact BJJ is Kano Ju-jitsu. You might be interested in reading: THE COMPLETE KANO JIU-JITSU (JUDO) (c.1906, 1961) by H. Irving Hancock and Katsukuma Higashi. A good review is on amazon.com

Dr. Kano removed all the nasty dangerous techniques of his two styles of ju-jitsu to form Judo. Naturally Brazillian Ju-Jitsu is more effective, in some ways, against Judo since the BJJ players are using techniques specifically removed and forbidden by Dr. Kano when he designed Judo.

That's a great book. I read through parts of it at a bookstore without buying.

BJJ uses a few moves that Judo doesn't allow such as more leg submissions and wrist submissions, it's true. But it's just a different sport. Like I said, though, switching from one to the other does not take too much acclimation. If you're good with one, you can pick up the other pretty well.

For BJJ -> Judo that means learning your takedowns. For Judo -> BJJ that means getting really good at your ground game, your ne waza. There are some details that need working out, but neither concept should be foreign to the other sport.



The point now is that Judo is not Jujitsu. They are two seperate systems. BJJ is jujitsu, and is no more compatible for a workout in Judo than is freestyle wrestling.

Actually, I believe the two are quite compatible. Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers can pick up Judo really well. At my old dojo we had two Freestyle wrestlers, one of which was on the 1980 Olympic team and did not get to go for a medal because we were boycotting because of the Soviets in Afganistan (now look at us...). They both took to Judo quite quickly, though there was a little acclimation period. Interestingly, our senior sensei was on the 1980 Olympic Judo team (Mario Rubio) and managed to convert the wrestler to Judo, which he's been doing for decades.

The biggest differences, other than submissions (a big difference), was the addition of clothing that could be grabbed. No more underhooking for everything. Now you can use clothing. That takes getting used to, even for Submission Wrestlers.

Our other sensei, my personal favorite and a sensei in the very best sense of the word, Greg Rubio, was a magnificent wrestler in high school due to his Judo experience. He just had to learn some different rules and scoring as well as how to work against someone who is not wearing a jacket that can be grabbed.



Dr. Jigoro Kano was a dignified man and understandibly dispised the commercial exploitation and circus-like performance of some martial arts practitioners. He protected his Judo from such sleazy and tacky showmanship. Unlike BJJ.

Ahhh, now I think this is the main point of your apparent dislike for BJJ - the culture of the sport.

It's true that a big part of Kano's briliance was to dignify the sport of Judo, for lack of a better word. That he made Judo, a sport which involves potentially lethal throws (if on cement), choking and strangling, hyperextending joints, and sweating and sometimes bleeding all over your opponent, something gentlemanly, is sheer briliance.

Part of that has to do with 1) the cultures at the time in regions where Judo caught on, 2) part to do with Japanese culture, and part to do with 3) the aesthetics (beautiful clean white and blue gis, Japanese terminology, and so on), and 4) partly to do with marketing, plain and simple.

BJJ is a little more obnoxious, to say the least, and it draws in people who wish to fight and who like to dress up like race cars. But as for why, well, see reasons 1-4 above:
1) Cultures at the time where BJJ has caught on (places that are fed up with "traditions" and fakes, don't have time to spend a decade evaluating something, and who wish to see something practical and effective more than aesthetic), 2) Brazilian culture (the guys who really indulge in Carnival!), 3) flashy, colorful kimonos/gis, and 4) marketing, plain and simple.

BJJ guys could learn to behave a little better, it's true, but even back in "the day" of Judo, back when Judo-man Kimura beat Gracie, there were a lot of thugs doing Judo - even Kimura and his pals were known to get into trouble at bars and into knife fights. There are a few articles you would enjoy on www.judoinfo.com or something like that.

So, though some of the "polish" of Judo looks nice, it wasn't and isn't always so. BJJ may become something similar in time.



I do not think that Brazillian Ju-Jitsu will qualify for the Olympics any more than any other style of Jiu-Jitsu, such as Daito-ryu, Hakko-Ryu, Kodokwan, or Dan-zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu's because of their dangerous self-defense and combat orientation. Since one has to be still living as a prerequisite to receive the Nobel Prize, I can only argue that Dr. Kano would have had a good shot at receiving the award.

I won't argue with you about Kano's merits - I think he accomplished something almost as wonderful as the guys(s) who invented soccer and brought the world (minus USA) together with it.

But I'd sure like to see BJJ become an Olympic sport. Maybe grouped together with Judo like foil, epee, and saber are all fencing. I'd like to see all the grappling sports grouped together in a similar way, and I'd love to see BJJ in there.

Afterall, what's BJJ but Judo with different rules, broader ground game, and less emphasis on takedowns?

And I think you really ought to give it a try. You'd probably love it.

-E

[Jack Stay]

Hi Erik,

I apologize for not making myself clearer regarding the distinctions between a 'jitsu' style of martial art and a 'do' style, specifically between Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo.

Of course a skilled practitioner of BJJ can learn how to do Judo. And of course a exponent of Kodokan Judo can also learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But a Judoka and a BJJ practitioner are not going to get very far if they compete in a tournament against one another, the rules and techniques are just too different. This was the analogy I was attempting to make describing my experiences of using my Judo against a wrestler. Too many differences in techniques and how to make a point in contest.

Also, I feel that comparing BJJ to Olympic fencing, as a reason for introducing BJJ as an Olympic event, was a weak analogy. Just as Judo is a humane form of Jujitsu; Olympic 'fencing' (with rubber tipped foils, epee's etc.) is a humane form of dueling with live blades. Any style of 'jitsu' is not humane - since Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a combat style, similar to Krav Magna and S.A.M.B.O., and has repeatedly been touted as the ultimate unbeatable martial art by the Gracie Family, I still think BJJ has an equal chance of becoming an Olympic event as dueling with real swords.

And this appears to be the chip on the BJJ shoulder, it wants to be another Judo and accepted into the Olympics and world championships, and it can't. But Dr. Jigoro Kano did it first, he was the first to turn ju-jitsu into ju-do, making a jujitsu style safe and humane for open freestyle practice.

One of genius Dr. Kano's many great achievements was to be the first to turn 'jujitsu' into a 'do' style. As you are probably aware, the Samurai combat arts were in danger of being totally outlawed by edict under the Meiji Restoration in Japan, and the only way to save the 'jitsu' styles, was to reduce them to a less threatening 'do' style. Thus Aikijitsu was turned into Aikido, Kenjitsu was turned into Kendo, karate-jitsu was practiced as karate-do, Ju-jitsu was made into Ju-do, and so on down the martial arts line.

Dr. Kano sent two of his best Kodokan Judo instructors, Yamashita and Masahiko Kimura, to South America to spread his new concept of Kodokan Judo. These two Judo senseis taught members of the Gracie family Judo. All the dangerous techniques which Dr. Kano removed and forbidden to use in his Judo, the Gracie family put back in again, and just reinvented jujitsu. And, what appear to be out of sheer gaul and audacity, called this modification of Kano Jujitsu, Gracie Jujitsu, and began the commercial exploitation and cheap marketing of the marital arts for personal gain.

Compare Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with American Jiu-Jitsu and Swedish Jiu-Jitsu and Sport Jiu-Jitsu and Master Cyr Jiu-Jitsu and Sammy Jiu-Jitsu and Surrey Jiu-Jitsu and Kokusai Jiu-jitsu .... ad infititum . Do you think they all should be considered as events for the Olympics?

Brazilian (Gracie) Jiu-Jitsu is just a form of Judo with all the nasty jiu-jitsu techniques which Dr. Kano removed, put back in. And as with any 'jujitsu' style (over a 'do' style) it is more effective in a street fight or self-defense situation, but not as an Olympic or World Championship event. BJJ would be a lot more worthwhile studying though, instead of Judo, to defend oneself in a street fight (allegedly) only because it is one of the 'jitsu's'.

I hope I clarified myself in order to understand my meaning and opinion of an interesting combat system, BJJ, which will never qualify as an Olympic event.

Thank you. :)
____________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Luebbers]

I don't think that BJJ is a reinvention of the original ju-jitsu that the Gracies evolved out of Judo. If anything, I think BJJ is more like Judo, just with a different set of rules. As many a Judo practitioner has declared, BJJ doesn't have any techniques in it that Judo doesn't. The whole philosophy behind BJJ is the same one that made Judo so successful - the removal of "deadly" techniques so that the pratitioners can spar at full force without hospitalizing each other. I wouldn't classify BJJ as any more dangerous than Judo in terms of the techniques allowed. In fact, I think that it would complement Judo as an Olympic sport quite well. Just as there are different styles of wrestling, like Greco-Roman and Freestyle, there are different types of Eastern grappling arts. Just as the principles of wrestling are the same between the styles, they develop into very distinct styles because of the rules of competition, the same is true of Judo and BJJ. The principles are the same, but the competitions are different.

PS: I was also under the impression that the only reason it was even called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was because Maeda called it jiu-jitsu (not Judo) when he taught it in the first place.

[Jack Stay]

I don't think that BJJ is a reinvention of the original ju-jitsu that the Gracies evolved out of Judo. If anything, I think BJJ is more like Judo, just with a different set of rules. As many a Judo practitioner has declared, BJJ doesn't have any techniques in it that Judo doesn't. The whole philosophy behind BJJ is the same one that made Judo so successful - the removal of "deadly" techniques so that the pratitioners can spar at full force without hospitalizing each other. I wouldn't classify BJJ as any more dangerous than Judo in terms of the techniques allowed. In fact, I think that it would complement Judo as an Olympic sport quite well. Just as there are different styles of wrestling, like Greco-Roman and Freestyle, there are different types of Eastern grappling arts. Just as the principles of wrestling are the same between the styles, they develop into very distinct styles because of the rules of competition, the same is true of Judo and BJJ. The principles are the same, but the competitions are different.

PS: I was also under the impression that the only reason it was even called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was because Maeda called it jiu-jitsu (not Judo) when he taught it in the first place.

Hi Michael:

The philosophy, concepts, and techniques of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Kodokan Judo are very different. BJJ is not another style of Judo - there is only one style of Judo and that is Kodokan Judo. Judo hasn't fractured off into various styles as did Karate or Jujitsu. A lot of BJJ techniques are illegal in Judo, just as a backfist would be illegal in boxing.

It has also been noted that the BJJ people tend to re-write Judo history as they view it. Mitsu Maeda, aka 'Count Koma', was a Kodokan Judo instructor sent out by Dr. Jigoro Kano himself to South America (and Mexico) to perpetuate Kodokan Judo. At that time all Japanese unarmed fighting systems were referred to as "jitsu", and the name of Kodokan Judo, being so new, was also referred to as 'Kano Ju-jitsu'.

What Sensei Mitsu Maeda was teaching was 'Kano Ju-jitsu' (Judo), and the Gracie family should have kept its name, Kano Jujitsu, instead of renaming it after themselves. But, the Gracies added more technique to Kano's Ju-jitsu, particularly techniques that Dr. Jigoro Kano had specifically removed and forbidden, to turn Judo back into Jujitsu (not Kano Jujitsu - Judo).

Today, Brazilian Jujitsu reminds me more and more of professional wrestling (as was done in the '60s - Bruno Samartino taught me two leg locks when I was a kid).

Again, as formally touted by the Gracie family as the ultimate martial art, it now seems incongruous the BJJ might be trying to pass itself off as just a different style of Judo. I think the Kodokan in Japan would have the last say.

I feel BJJ is a better method of self-defense to study than Judo, only because BJJ is a 'jitsu'.

Thanks!
__________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Jeff C.]

Jack, I've never heard any BJJ people say that BJJ is just another form of judo. Quite the contrary; I hear judo folks frequently say that BJJ is judo.

That would be like karate folks telling everyone that karate is just another form of tae kwon do. ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

Jack, I've never heard any BJJ people say that BJJ is just another form of judo. Quite the contrary; I hear judo folks frequently say that BJJ is judo.

That would be like karate folks telling everyone that karate is just another form of tae kwon do. ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,

Sorry to sound pedantic:

'Came from Judo' not 'is' Judo, is what I've been hearing from fellow Judo people.

And from my research, and observations from video tapes, such as Royce Gracie's 2002 defeat at the hands of Judoka Hidehiko Yoshida (and Royce whining for a call of 'no-contest'), BJJ appears to be mimicking Judo everywhich way it can.

P.S. Could you tell me, or do a new thread, on your style of Ju-jitsu?

Thanx!
_______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Erik]

I don't think that BJJ is a reinvention of the original ju-jitsu that the Gracies evolved out of Judo. If anything, I think BJJ is more like Judo, just with a different set of rules. As many a Judo practitioner has declared, BJJ doesn't have any techniques in it that Judo doesn't.
Well said.

I wonder, though, sometimes what Dave Camarillo once told me about the difference between the two: that Judo does ne waza wrong. I am sure he meant something deeper than the obvious.

[Jeff C.]

Jack, apology not necessary. We hang with different people, we both hear slightly different things.

As far as Royce Gracie's loss to Yoshida (a very fine judoka) in their first match, it is quite obvious that Royce was NOT choked out; the choke was not "sunk in." Royce was clearly not unconcious or even close, as evidenced by him immediately leaping to his feet with his arms out, arguing with the official. People who are choked out don't know where they are or what they are doing when they come to (I have been choked out, observed others choked out, and choked out a few myself.). Now, most judoka who do not understand BJJ strategy have argued, "but Royce was not moving, not trying to escape." Yoshida had dominant position on Royce, but his choke was not working. Rather than expose his neck further by attempting to escape, Royce was simply waiting for Yoshida to "adjust fire" since the choke was ineffective. At that point Royce would have attempted escape.

Regarding their second meeting, Royce clearly dominated Yoshida positionally; it is a testament to Yoshida's skill that he was not submitted by Gracie.

(By the way, I was pulling for Yoshida in the first match, but after observing the flagrantly bad [if not dishonest] call by the official, I was pulling for Royce on the second match.)

The really bad thing about that first match is that Yoshida was cheated too. I think he could have beat Royce, no questions asked, in that match. But due to the match being called when Royce was clearly totally unaffected by the choke has permanently marred Yoshida's "win."

How is BJJ "mimicking Judo everywhich way it can"? It is derived from judo (in my opinion), but the competition format is significantly different. Do you feel that BJJ is somehow trying to steal judo's thunder? I'm trying to get a feel for what you really feel and think about this. I'm a judo and a jujitsu guy, so my perspective is a bit skewed. ;)

Regarding my style, your best bet is to go to www.wabujitsu.com, read that, and ask me any questions that you might have. Others here are well-versed on that topic already; I don't want to bore them to tears again if I can help it. ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

Well said.

I wonder, though, sometimes what Dave Camarillo once told me about the difference between the two: that Judo does ne waza wrong. I am sure he meant something deeper than the obvious.


Interesting observation, I don't think its that Judo is doing newaza wrong, just different.

But since Judo is the parent style, I would say that BJJ is doing newaza different, but perfectly correct within the tenents of a 'jitsu' martial art.

My first impression of BJJ was how different they approach newaza, a lot more techniques used that are not allowed in Judo. My next immediate impression was how much more newaza is emphasized in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Judo tends to be 80% tachiwaza (standing techniques) and Judo considers newaza only as an ugly necessity if the throw does not go off well. And again, the shime-waza, kansetsu waza, and osae-komi waza are all performed under Dr. Kano's credo of maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

In my competition days it was always considered a cheap victory to win on a string of osae-komi's; or to perform an act of sloppy technique (such as hadaka-jime across the bridge of your opponent's nose). To this day I don't appreciate cheap victories from any style which wins from them.

While competing in one of my smaller local shiai's, as an experiment, I used takedowns into kami-shiho gatame. I defeated ten opponents all on osae-komi to take first place. That was the only medal I threw away the same day I won it, and I was ridiculed by my fellow Judo players for being lazy and getting a cheap victory. If you want a medal that bad, just buy one, it will save you the time and trouble of going through all those osae-komis.

This story is just to emphasize the attitude which Judo had toward newaza in the late '60s, the '70s, and the early '80s.

So both Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu have 'different' approaches towards newaza that are equally justified in their given practice.
________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Erik]

That's an unfortunate attitude for the sport. They're missing out on most of the fun.

You ought to go to a BJJ school and roll a bit, Jack. You might find that you're missing out on a tremendous amount of fun and ne waza development.

Personally, I love both sports. Having a Judo and a Jiu Jitsu gi hanging in my car (stinking it up) is like having a road bike and a mountain bike, though cheaper.

You might find the BJJ culture is not so bad as you think. It's more of a macho sport (this didn't phase me much having come from water polo and wrestling) but also very warm and family-like once you're "in" the team. I like Judo's good manners, of course, but people will be people regardless. Judo teams can get stuffy and snotty as well. All depends on the group.

Now go get yourself a tighter gi, learn how to really use pistol grips on the sleeves, and develop your ne waza. The game is so wonderfully sophisticated in the Brazilian camp - you're bound to fall in love if you give it a chance!

-E

[Jack Stay]

That's an unfortunate attitude for the sport. They're missing out on most of the fun.

You ought to go to a BJJ school and roll a bit, Jack. You might find that you're missing out on a tremendous amount of fun and ne waza development.

Personally, I love both sports. Having a Judo and a Jiu Jitsu gi hanging in my car (stinking it up) is like having a road bike and a mountain bike, though cheaper.

You might find the BJJ culture is not so bad as you think. It's more of a macho sport (this didn't phase me much having come from water polo and wrestling) but also very warm and family-like once you're "in" the team. I like Judo's good manners, of course, but people will be people regardless. Judo teams can get stuffy and snotty as well. All depends on the group.

Now go get yourself a tighter gi, learn how to really use pistol grips on the sleeves[/QUOTE], and develop your ne waza. The game is so wonderfully sophisticated in the Brazilian camp - you're bound to fall in love if you give it a chance!

-E[/QUOTE]

Hi Erik,

What is a pistol grip?

I am well versed in Judo's 'Kumi Katas', but I have never heard of a pistol grip.


Also, I see you falling into the analogy trap again, comparing your mountain bike to your road bike as if Judo was similar to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - just two variations of the same thing. I'm sure I would have fallen in love with Brazillian Jiu Jitsu just as I have fallen in love with Hakko-Ryu Jiu-jitsu, but neither are Judo. Actually Hakko-Ryu and Aikido are supposed to be similar, but there are significant differences between them also.

Thanks!
________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Luebbers]

Just out of curiosity, what does "osae-komis" mean? I only know the "stolen" BJJ terms; I don't know many Japanese technical names.

Also, what techniques does BJJ have that Judo does not allow?

[Jack Stay]

Just out of curiosity, what does "osae-komis" mean? I only know the "stolen" BJJ terms; I don't know many Japanese technical names.

Also, what techniques does BJJ have that Judo does not allow?

Hello Michael:

If you tell me what a 'pistol grip' is, I'll tell you what Osae-komi is! ;)

Osae-Komi is any hold down technique. It is also the term the referee would shout out to start the clock running in a Judo tournament once a player has firmly established his grip: "OSAE-KOMI" and you got 30 seconds to hold the guy down for the win.

Shime-waza is any choking technique.

Kansetsu-waza is any arm-bar technique. Kimura = Ude Gatame

Kumi-kata is Judo's various use of grips or seizing.

Now according to the USA Judo Referee Commission, http://www.usjudo.org
(select Referees from left menu) the 'flying Jujigatame' is not allowed in Judo tournament. Also, besides atemi-waza (punches & kicks) leglocks, headlocks, ankle-pickups, or placing a foot in the stomach outside of a throwing technique are all disallowed in a Judo tournament. Any throw & choke combination or throw & arm-bar combination are not allowed in Judo tournament.

But all of these are found in Judo's Kime No Kata (self-defence) and Koshiki No Kata (21 Jujitsu techniques) taught to upper black belts (5th dan and above) after their tournament days are over.

The only two submission holds practiced by Judo would be its arm-bars and choking techniques. The hold downs, Osae-komis, are basically time oriented wins.

These are some of the minor differences between BJJ & Judo.

Thanks!
______________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Cliff Hargrave]

This is really a useless thread. Jack has his pre-conceived notions even though he admits he has never even studied BJJ or been around anyone who has.

BJJ came from judo but it is not judo. It's also not jiujitsu really, in the classical meaning. The finishing techniques are the same as judo and any other submission style, but it has a unique set of strategies. The set-ups and flow of BJJ is different and it can't really be described, it has to be felt.

As far as the marketing, I think it needed the marketing to get known, or else it would still be an obscure martial art taught out of Rorion's garage. Win or lose they fought alot of people. I guess people don't get mad at fat, fake, grandmasters who advertise ki knockouts, but they can hate a BJJ guy that will actually step up. It sparked the fire that created a new wave of martial artists that actually train to fight.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Now according to the USA Judo Referee Commission, http://www.usjudo.org
(select Referees from left menu) the 'flying Jujigatame' is not allowed in Judo tournament. Also, besides atemi-waza (punches & kicks) leglocks, headlocks, ankle-pickups, or placing a foot in the stomach outside of a throwing technique are all disallowed in a Judo tournament. Any throw & choke combination or throw & arm-bar combination are not allowed in Judo tournament.



Flying jujigatamte IS legal in judo and is used alot now. There are some great video clips floating around the web of it used in several national and international tounaments. You just can't lock the arm out until you hit the ground. Dave Camarillo has done it several times.

[Jeff C.]

Jack, I hate to say it, but it does seem that you are biased but trying to give the impression of being open-minded. I'm wondering if that is why you choose not to answer my questions in my last post?

The pistol grip is described in detail in the judo rules that you posted a link to. It is a banned technique in judo, as well as the pocket grip.

The judo rules have become politicized. It is less about combat efficiency, and more about trying to make it visually appealing to more people. Case in point: not being able to dive the head towards the mat while executing uchimata or haraigoshi. This rule directly violates Kano's credo of maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Diving the head towards the mat makes these throws more efficient and more effortless. Not being allowed to feint to set up a throw is another blatant violation of Kano's credo; this is called "strategy," and it is designed to make throws more effortless. Now (generally speaking) judoka are relying more on strength instead of finess for kuzushi.

Regarding kime- and koshiki- no kata, learning these "tricks" without applying them in randori against a resisting opponent are exercises in futility. Learning ANY trick without working it in a multi-move drill is a waste of time. Speaking of that, the main difference between judo and BJJ is this in a nutshell: judo likes to teach tricks predominantly and shies away from positional strategy and positional drills, or only pays them token attention (that whole grappling-aversion thing). BJJ and other submission arts incorporate the tricks into these drills and strategy.

The shame of it is it wasn't this way when I started training in judo in 1979.

I am very much pro-judo, and also very pro-BJJ. They compliment each other well. I would love to see judo adopt more of a BJJ approach in training and in competition; if it did that, I think it would be the dominant grappling sport in the world (dominant = largest number of students, biggest turnout at tournaments, etc.).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

This is really a useless thread. Jack has his pre-conceived notions even though he admits he has never even studied BJJ or been around anyone who has.

BJJ came from judo but it is not judo. It's also not jiujitsu really, in the classical meaning. The finishing techniques are the same as judo and any other submission style, but it has a unique set of strategies. The set-ups and flow of BJJ is different and it can't really be described, it has to be felt.

As far as the marketing, I think it needed the marketing to get known, or else it would still be an obscure martial art taught out of Rorion's garage. Win or lose they fought alot of people. I guess people don't get mad at fat, fake, grandmasters who advertise ki knockouts, but they can hate a BJJ guy that will actually step up. It sparked the fire that created a new wave of martial artists that actually train to fight.

Actually Cliff, this is a very useful thread. A lot of dicussion is being generated, a lot is being learned, and BJJ is being critiqued and intelligently defended.
____________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jack Stay]

Flying jujigatamte IS legal in judo and is used alot now. There are some great video clips floating around the web of it used in several national and international tounaments. You just can't lock the arm out until you hit the ground. Dave Camarillo has done it several times.

Hi Cliff,

I believe you that the flying jujigatame is being used in Judo tournaments, but it appears it is being selectively tolerated.

I saw, and was taught, a flying jujigatame in the '70s, so I know that it is, or was, legal in Judo.

The interpretation of the IJF rules, Appendix Article 27 regarding Prohibited acts and penalties is a point of ambiguity.

I am going to get to the bottom of this.
__________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Cliff Hargrave]

Actually Cliff, this is a very useful thread. A lot of dicussion is being generated, a lot is being learned, and BJJ is being critiqued and intelligently defended.
____________________
John 'Jack' Stay

But the internet isn't supposed to be for intelligent debate, it's for mindless arguing and posturing! :)

[Jeff C.]

From Jack: "A lot of discussion is being generated...." Hmmmm. I'm thinking not, Jack, as you have ignored my questions and comments in my last two posts. But I will give you the benefit of doubt; perhaps you did not see my rather lengthy posts.

We'll give this thread just a little longer before locking it down, to see if anything useful comes out of it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Luebbers]

"Now according to the USA Judo Referee Commission, http://www.usjudo.org
(select Referees from left menu) the 'flying Jujigatame' is not allowed in Judo tournament. Also, besides atemi-waza (punches & kicks) leglocks, headlocks, ankle-pickups, or placing a foot in the stomach outside of a throwing technique are all disallowed in a Judo tournament. Any throw & choke combination or throw & arm-bar combination are not allowed in Judo tournament.

But all of these are found in Judo's Kime No Kata (self-defence) and Koshiki No Kata (21 Jujitsu techniques) taught to upper black belts (5th dan and above) after their tournament days are over."

This is why I think that Judo and BJJ are more similar than you think. BJJ contains techniques that are illegal in Judo tournaments, but, as you just stated, so does Judo. BJJ tournaments also do not allow some of BJJ's own techniques (heelhooks being among the most popular illegal techniques). I think that BJJ and Judo have pretty much the same lexicon of techniques, however BJJ tournaments follow different rules and allow different techniques to be applied. This has led the art to evolve away from Judo and become different.

[Jack Stay]

From Jack: "A lot of discussion is being generated...." Hmmmm. I'm thinking not, Jack, as you have ignored my questions and comments in my last two posts. But I will give you the benefit of doubt; perhaps you did not see my rather lengthy posts.

We'll give this thread just a little longer before locking it down, to see if anything useful comes out of it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,

Sorry - no I'm not ignoring you, I'm reading and researching some of the points you made in your last two post responses. I assure you the delay is unintentional and I mean no disrespect.

I am just tied up researching three issues which have monopolized my time.

Please bear with me a bit longer. Thanks!
______________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Jack Stay]

Jack, I hate to say it, but it does seem that you are biased but trying to give the impression of being open-minded. I'm wondering if that is why you choose not to answer my questions in my last post?

The pistol grip is described in detail in the judo rules that you posted a link to. It is a banned technique in judo, as well as the pocket grip.

The judo rules have become politicized. It is less about combat efficiency, and more about trying to make it visually appealing to more people. Case in point: not being able to dive the head towards the mat while executing uchimata or haraigoshi. This rule directly violates Kano's credo of maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Diving the head towards the mat makes these throws more efficient and more effortless. Not being allowed to feint to set up a throw is another blatant violation of Kano's credo; this is called "strategy," and it is designed to make throws more effortless. Now (generally speaking) judoka are relying more on strength instead of finess for kuzushi.

Regarding kime- and koshiki- no kata, learning these "tricks" without applying them in randori against a resisting opponent are exercises in futility. Learning ANY trick without working it in a multi-move drill is a waste of time. Speaking of that, the main difference between judo and BJJ is this in a nutshell: judo likes to teach tricks predominantly and shies away from positional strategy and positional drills, or only pays them token attention (that whole grappling-aversion thing). BJJ and other submission arts incorporate the tricks into these drills and strategy.

The shame of it is it wasn't this way when I started training in judo in 1979.

I am very much pro-judo, and also very pro-BJJ. They compliment each other well. I would love to see judo adopt more of a BJJ approach in training and in competition; if it did that, I think it would be the dominant grappling sport in the world (dominant = largest number of students, biggest turnout at tournaments, etc.).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,

Sorry for the delay. No, I am not biased against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I believe I have strong arguments regarding its veracity. I do not see BJJ complimenting Judo any more than other styles of jiu-jitsu would compliment Judo. Dr. Jigoro Kano was a genius, when he removed all the dangerous techniques from Kito Ryu (to rise and fall) Jiu-Jitsu and from Tenshin Shinyo Ryu (school of the natural way) Jiu-Jitsu to develop his Ju-do, he created something unique; Dr. Kano created a humane and safe form of jiu-jitsu. To reverse Dr. Kano's process by replacing all the dangerous street fighting techniques back into Judo, would only be to re-invent Jiu-jitsu: reinventing the wheel sort to speak.

http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm

But what I am observing, in my opinion, which annoys me is that history seems to be repeating it self in BJJ's relationship to Judo.

NOTE: In order to have responded to your last two posts, I had to do some more research on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to learn more of BJJ's terms for techniques I might already know, but under Japanese names. Those books I have read over the past few days include:

BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU: Theory & Technique (2001) by Renzo Gracie
BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU: Submission Grappling (2003) by Royler Gracie
MASTERING JIU-JITSU (2003) by Renzo Gracie

I started my Judo training in 1964 and my Jiu-jitsu training in 1968, http://www.hakkoryu.com, and at that time the major controversies regarding Judo tournaments was the attempted inclusion of S.A.M.B.O. and free-style (collegiate) wrestling into Judo by the former Soviet Judo players and the American Judo players. Very similar to what is happening today with BJJ players competing in Judo tournaments yet fighting in a BJJ manner.

American Judo players introduced the free-style wrestling techniques of: single-leg dive, the double-leg dive, the ankle pick-up, supplex, and the fireman's carry (a newaza form of Kata-garuma). The Soviet Judo players introduced belt throws such as: grabbing the obi tails hanging in front of the Gi and performing Ippon Seionage (one arm shoulder throw), and various unorthodox grips ('cork-screwing the Gi sleeve' was introduced by the Soviets), plus the Soviet's emphasis of using brute strength over 'kazushi' to win.

In fact, I recognize within the International Judo Federation (IJF) rules: #27. 'Prohibited acts and penalties', those changes made as a result of both Soviet and American Judo players attempting to use non-Judo technique in the '68, '72, and '76 Olympic Games and various World Championships. The Judo Rules have not become politicized at all, they were made to prevent the politicizing of Judo by the former Soviet Union and the States.

Its unusual for you to accuse the IJF Rules in Judo competition of attempting to make Judo "visually appealing to the people" in light of BJJ's ridiculous looking multi-patched Gi's, gold-teeth contestants aping in front of the camera after defeating 'selected' opponents, and generally BJJ's circus like competitions. [Actually, I believe Mr. Anton Geesink, Judan (10th Dan) is deliberately trying to turn Judo into a sport , with all the bad things a sport has to offer (such as drawing a paying audience)].

Because Judo shiai can imitate western sport, Judo has an international appeal and practical application in sports competition, it can be included in the Olympics, World Championships, Pan American Games, or any other forum for sport. So I do not feel that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to steal Judo's thunder, I feel that BJJ is trying to become internationally accepted by riding on Judo's coat-tails. By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance. But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish.

Please read Dave Camarillo's opinion of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu's chance of becoming an Olympic event:

http://www.onthemat.com/interview_dave-cam-new.html

Excluding the self-defense techniques of Judo's Koshiki No Kata and the Kime No Kata from Judo competition is common sense - Judo is not Jiu-jitsu! Kicking, punching, and wrist twisting were purposely removed from competition by Judo's founder to improve the safety of free practice. That was the whole point of inventing Judo in the first place. Those katas are to be learned after a Godan (5th dan) has ended his competition days and wants to continue in Judo (to 10th degree).

Based on the videos I've watched and the books I've read on BJJ, it appears to me that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is still re-inventing itself as time goes on, in other words, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu seems to have lost its identity. It appears to me to be more like professional wrestling than a form of Japanese Jiu-jitsu. In the above listed books of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, I recognized several wrestling take down techniques, pro-wrestling leg-locks, karate techniques, some Aikido techniques, two Judo throws, and a ton of Judo newaza technique which looks like they were taken straight out of the book: VITAL JUDO by Isano Okano. The only technique which appeared to be unique to BJJ was the 'Omoplata' - Shoulder lock using legs, otherwise these books were using a blend of techniques from several different styles under the misnomer of Jiu-jitsu.

Both S.A.M.B.O. and Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu were derived from Kodokan Judo, yet similar to S.A.M.B.O., BJJ has changed significantly over the years from jiu-jitsu to become an entirely different art. Judo really doesn't need any advice from BJJ for improvement, Dr. Jigoro Kano did an excellent job in his design.

So finally, It is true that I am not biased against Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, its just that I recognize that history is being repeated with S.A.M.....I mean, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu players trying to compete in Judo tournaments using BJJ methodology and thinking, and claiming that BJJ is somehow an improvement on Judo. The BJJ people, like the S.A.M.B.O. people before them, keep forgetting that their parent style was developed not as a combat system.

Based on my past years with Judo and Hakko-Ryu (school of Eight Lights) Jiu-Jitsu, plus being crossed trained in wrestling, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Aikido, I just think it is unnecessary for me to study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to learn skills I already possess.

Thanks!
_________________
John 'Jack' Stay

Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu

[Cliff Hargrave]

Its unusual for you to accuse the IJF Rules in Judo competition of attempting to make Judo "visually appealing to the people" in light of BJJ's ridiculous looking multi-patched Gi's, gold-teeth contestants aping in front of the camera after defeating 'selected' opponents, and generally BJJ's circus like competitions.

Have you ever been to a BJJ tournament? How do you get selected opponents? If you are talking about NHB then that is a completely different thing and no BJJ guys run those since Rorion sold his rights to the UFC in 1994. Where do you come up with this stuff? How are they circus like?

IJF has recently changed the rules to make judo more visual friendly by shortening matches to 4 minutes, shortening pin time to ippon to 25 seconds, limiting groundwork time, and changing legal gripping. These changes were made specificlly to get more visual thowing in an attempt to get more TV time in the US. This is pretty common knowledge in the Judo circles and I am surprised you haven't heard about it.

Who has gold teeth? Is your dental work now checked in judo? I knew they were uptight about uniforms but dang, your teeth have to be a certain way?
BTW, the patched gis in BJJ are sponser patches. Lots of poor people in Brazil and they get sponsers so they can afford to go to tournaments.

Great descriptions from someone that is not biased against BJJ.



I feel that BJJ is trying to become internationally accepted by riding on Judo's coat-tails. By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance. But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish.

I don't understand this at all. If anything I see Judo trying to ride BJJ's coattails into being accepted as an actual combat effective art. For years judo has been left out of the martial arts limelight and never took off here. BJJ comes along and explodes and now judo guys are whining "hey we do that stuff too, BJJ is just judo....blah blah blah....."




Please read Dave Camarillo's opinion of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu's chance of becoming an Olympic event:

http://www.onthemat.com/interview_dave-cam-new.html

A great example of a guy (champion judoka) that saw how good BJJ was and learned it.




Based on the videos I've watched and the books I've read on BJJ, it appears to me that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is still re-inventing itself as time goes on, in other words, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu seems to have lost its identity.

Huh?



In the above listed books of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, I recognized several wrestling take down techniques, pro-wrestling leg-locks, karate techniques, some Aikido techniques, two Judo throws, and a ton of Judo newaza technique which looks like they were taken straight out of the book: VITAL JUDO by Isano Okano. The only technique which appeared to be unique to BJJ was the 'Omoplata' - Shoulder lock using legs, otherwise these books were using a blend of techniques from several different styles under the misnomer of Jiu-jitsu.

What books cannot show is the feel, flow, and set ups of BJJ. It has to be experienced.



So finally, It is true that I am not biased against Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, its just that I recognize that history is being repeated with S.A.M.....I mean, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu players trying to compete in Judo tournaments using BJJ methodology and thinking, and claiming that BJJ is somehow an improvement on Judo.


Bjj guys competing in judo tournaments are such a small percentage that it is almost not even worth talking about. Most bjj guys don't give a flying flip about judo tournaments. BJJ guys mostly concentrate on BJJ tournaments, self defense, and NHB. BJJ is a major improvement on judo in those categories.



Based on my past years with Judo and Hakko-Ryu (school of Eight Lights) Jiu-Jitsu, plus being crossed trained in wrestling, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Aikido, I just think it is unnecessary for me to study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to learn skills I already possess.


That's the point, you don't possess those skills. You think you do because you saw them in a book and they looked the same. They way BJJ and judo approach these things is completely different. Camarillo is the best example of this. He was an Olympic level judoka and he saw where BJJ did ground work better than judo so he learned it. Another good example is Rhadi Ferguson. He will be on the US olympic team and he was a college wrestler too. He found better ground work in BJJ and he is now a brown belt in BJJ.

You really have a misinformed or biased opinion of BJJ. That is why I asked if you tried it. Find a BJJ black belt and roll with him then come on here and say that there is nothing you can learn from it. If you are going to talk trash about it you should at least have some experience in it. I have never done Hakko Ryu but I have seen videos of it. You don't see me talking about it, even though I think hakamas look silly. I would much rather be in a patched up gi.

[Jeff C.]

Jack, thanks for the well-worded and researched reply. My apologies for being impatient.

I agree with a number of things you said. Dr. Kano was a genius. He took an art (jujitsu) that was largely looked down upon by the class-ridden Japanese and made it into a respectable art (respectable by Japanese standards). As you said, he made it much safer for more people to practice, yet at the same time it DID manage to stay combat-viable, at least in the beginning.

"To reverse Dr. Kano's process by replacing all the dangerous street fighting techniques back into Judo, would only be to re-invent Jiu-jitsu: reinventing the wheel sort to speak."

BJJ has put some of those "dangerous street fighting techniques" (what's more dangerous than being put on your head on the asphalt with a good haraigoshi?;)) back into it's form of competition. But more importantly it has changed the priorities of what it considers to be more combatively necessary: grappling and submissions through grappling. BJJ has not eliminated throwing, it has just changed the priorities. I see that as the main difference between the competitive aspects of both sports.

"Its unusual for you to accuse the IJF Rules in Judo competition of attempting to make Judo "visually appealing to the people" in light of BJJ's ridiculous looking multi-patched Gi's, gold-teeth contestants aping in front of the camera after defeating 'selected' opponents, and generally BJJ's circus like competitions."

Not really unusual, Jack. It is well-known that, after Kano passed on, judo moved even farther away from newaza, and more towards nagewaza. Read this eye-opening article from the IJF on "Judo Vision 2000": http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/judovision.html . Judo has some serious problems. Judo is considering more of a BJJ approach, it seems. Some extracts from the article:

"Competition is now too far from judo's origins as a fighting art. Competition is unlike real combat, and far too technical. Spectators come to judo for the same things many judoka do; for the martial art aspect of judo. They want to see fighting and don't understand why the competitors have to get up so quickly from the mat, why they have to grip in certain ways, why so many penalties are given."

Here's a good one: "They want to see action and don't understand why the competitors have to get up so quickly from newaza, why there is no score for pins face down."

Regarding gaudy gi's in BJJ, to each his own. BJJ gi's are different from judo gi's. They are even cut differently. As far as the patches, have you noticed that judo gi's are now moving in that direction as well? Yes, I agree - behavior of some BJJ folks at BJJ tournaments is deplorable. It is ALSO deplorable at some judo tournaments; I personally witnessed a riot in south Florida during an AAU judo competition. Competitors, spectators, coaches, all of them throwing down on each other. Disgusting. And since this stuff seems to happen at both judo and BJJ tournaments, your comparison is irrelevant.

"The Judo Rules have not become politicized at all, they were made to prevent the politicizing of Judo by the former Soviet Union and the States."

That is true, Jack - I agree. It is also true that other rules have been made to increase the popularity of judo, to bring in more spectators, to bring in more money, more sponsors - in other words, politicizing the process - less about the athletes, more about the almighty dollar. Politicizing is not necessarily bad, but it has bitten the judo world right square in the butt because it went too far, as indicated in the aforementioned article from the IJF that I provided a link to.

"By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance."

How is it trying to "ingratiate itself?" Are you not aware that BJJ has already won "international acceptance?"

"But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish."

Really? Perhaps you are not aware that The Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF), the recognized International Federations of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Ju-Jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF.

I guess the impossible somehow became possible.

"Based on the videos I've watched and the books I've read on BJJ, it appears to me that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is still re-inventing itself as time goes on, in other words, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu seems to have lost its identity. It appears to me to be more like professional wrestling than a form of Japanese Jiu-jitsu."

No, not really. It is Brazilian jiujitsu, NOT Japanese! And that process you call "re-inventing" can also be stated as "not stagnating," as judo is in danger of doing. All good combative-oriented arts change with the times. Judo used to, but then it started changing for the wrong reasons. Again, read the article from the IJF. Partial quote from the article again: "Competition is now too far from judo's origins as a fighting art."

"....I recognized several wrestling take down techniques, pro-wrestling leg-locks, karate techniques, some Aikido techniques, two Judo throws, and a ton of Judo newaza technique which looks like they were taken straight out of the book: VITAL JUDO by Isano Okano. The only technique which appeared to be unique to BJJ was the 'Omoplata' - Shoulder lock using legs, otherwise these books were using a blend of techniques from several different styles under the misnomer of Jiu-jitsu."

So what if it doesn't have "unique" or original techniques? What system does? Judo certainly doesn't. With your logic, judo is a blend of techniques from different styles of jujitsu under the misnomer of "judo!"

"The BJJ people, like the S.A.M.B.O. people before them, keep forgetting that their parent style was developed not as a combat system."

Wrong. Again, look at the article. Your history is incorrect. Judo was a fighting art in Kano's mind, in addition to being a way. As the IJF has said, judo has moved too far away from it's origins as a fighting art. One of the big problems with judo is judo instructors forgetting that it IS a fighting art. I am extremely glad that my judo instructors kept the fighting and combative aspects at the forefront of our training. I bet the Gracies are very glad that "Count Koma" also taught judo as a fighting and combative art.

"....I just think it is unnecessary for me to study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to learn skills I already possess."

That may be true. Is your ground game as good as a BJJ blue or purple belt? ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Erik]

"[C]ork-screwing the Gi sleeve" is what I meant by "pistol grip". You had asked earlier.

[Jack Stay]

"[C]ork-screwing the Gi sleeve" is what I meant by "pistol grip". You had asked earlier.

Hi Erik,

Yes, thanks! Jeff C's response to my skeptical opinion of BJJ brought the IJF rules to my second review, and those rules had described both a 'pistol' grip and a 'pocket grip'.

They made some significant (and controversial ) changes to the IJF rules in 1997, particularly the use of a baby blue gi. I contacted Tohoku Judo Club in Somerville, MA. and they said the blue gi wasnt' mandatory at local tournaments, only at designated 'blue gi' tournaments and national point tournaments. Too bad for me, I despise the blue gi.

I read that the World Championships hadn't decided to use the blue gi, but that might have changed by now. And the All Japan Judo Championships do not use it at all.
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jack Stay]

http://www.matbattle.com/articles/bjj/new_gay_judo.htm

:laugh: :laugh:

---------------------
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jeff C.]

Jack, now that I see what websites you frequent, I can understand how someone like you who has been in judo for so long can be sooooo confused....

I certainly have nothing against gays, but here's a suggestion: expand your horizons and look at some OTHER judo webpages! ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

O.K Cliff: :D

1) "If anything I see Judo trying to ride BJJ's coattails into being accepted as an actual combat effective art."

Again Cliff, no 'do' style is a combat effective art, and no 'jitsu' style is sport compatable. Try making a sport out of kenjitsu or Aikijitsu?

When Dr. Kano reduced jujitsu into judo, he intentionally removed all the combative aspects out of his new style, though he kept a few self-defense aspects of it. Judo has never attempted into being accepted as a combat effective style! Only the Russians (S.A.M.B.O.) or the USMC (combat Judo) have tried to make Judo combat effective. Jiu-Jitsu is combat effective enough, you don't need Judo except as a form of combat simulation training!

2). "What books cannot show is the feel, flow, and set ups of BJJ. It has to be experienced."

Well isn't that is true of any style of martial art? Yet, practitioners do learn something out of books, which is why BJJ publishes so many on its style.

After two decades of Judo and two dan promotions, it is not difficult to visualize a technique in one's minds eye, especially if its a technique you are extremely familiar with, such as having won a Judo tournament with some of the obvious Judo techniques shown in a book of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

3.) "BJJ is a major improvement on judo in those categories." (regarding tournaments, self-defense, and NHB).

Well, that's the conceit of BJJ isn't it? That the child instructs the parent. Introducing BJJ techniques would not improve Judo, it would turn Judo back into Jujitsu. This would be a redundancy, not an improvement.

4.) "That's the point, you don't possess those skills." (regarding my Judo, Karate, jiu-jitsu experiences and cross training in wrestling & Aikido).

I won't bother to explain this nonsense.

5.) "...even though I think hakamas look silly. I would much rather be in a patched up gi."

Just think, without Dr. Jigoro Kano's innovation, not only would there be no BJJ, there would be no Gi to patch up. It was all done in hakamas up to Dr. Jigoro Kano's time.

_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jack Stay]

Jack, now that I see what websites you frequent, I can understand how someone like you who has been in judo for so long can be sooooo confused....

I certainly have nothing against gays, but here's a suggestion: expand your horizons and look at some OTHER judo webpages! ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

It says GAY BJJ! :laugh:
-------------
John 'Jack' Stay :D

[Webmaster]

...<snip>the Judo choke: Sankaku Juji-Jime, is appropriately named Naked Hell Strangle.

Sankaku-jime does not mean "Naked Hell Strangle". If means "Triangular Strangle". Note the "San" at the begining of the name. What you are thinking of is Jigoku-jime or "hell strangle".

On a different note, either this thread takes a serious turn for the productive, and gets off the "who can beat up whom" nonsense, or I will close it.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well since it's dropped to the level of someone posting "matbattle" websites then I say close it.

[Jeff Burger]

Asked and recieved.


Jeff

[Jeff C.]

Jack, your views and the way you present them are becoming somewhat odd (although the gay judo boy who now does BJJ for perverse pleasure was kind of funny, in a pathetic way).

1. You conveniently ignore the facts from the IJF that dispute your opinions.

2. While obviously having an attitude towards BJJ, you seem to inadvertently put down judo in your haste to put down BJJ.

3. You oversimplify the do/jitsu relationship of many martial arts to sport applications (military guys who do "combatives" still compete within the framework of their chosen combative system - I don't know if you really don't know this, or if you are just choosing to ignore it because it doesn't support your argument). By the way, I happen to be a certified Army Combatives instructor, in case you question the validity of my opinion.

4. You arrogantly argue that you do not have to experience the subtle but profound nuances of a martial art before passing judgement on it. You ignore anectdotal evidence from people who have studied and competed in both judo and BJJ. You even posted a link to one person who clearly states major differences between the two - your link that YOU provided - but you apparently discount his opinion also. My guess is it is a fear-of-failure thing. I can assure you, after my almost 26 years in judo (sandan), jujitsu (rokudan), karate (shodan), there is a LOT to learn from BJJ (one and a half years, blue belt). I am only throwing out the time and rank thing to impress upon you the difference in BJJ training. Don't be afraid to have your butt handed to you on a BJJ mat - go down there and grapple with the blue belts and see for yourself. If you do this it will lend some credibility to your opinion.

5. BJJ books are intended for BJJ practitioners, just as TKD books are intended for TKD practitioners. After all, can a TKD guy learn and effectively execute kuzushi from reading "Secrets of Judo?" I don't think so.

6. "It was all done in hakamas up to Dr. Jigoro Kano's time." Hey, don't forget those sexy little shorts that they used to wear. I'm surprised your gay judo friends didn't fill you in on that historical detail! ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jeff C.]

Thread reopened out of courtesy to Jack, if he chooses to respond.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Luebbers]

I'm not even sure why I'm contributing to this thing, but Jack mentioned that anything witha "do" is a sport and is therefore not suitable as a combat method, and the inverse for a "jitsu." What some people are trying to say is that regardless of extension, the proof is in the pudding. You keep saying that Judo was never meant to be combat effective, it was meant to be a sport. That fact is irrelevant. Judo is combat effective. You also keep saying that BJJ is a "jitsu" and so is meant for combat, not sport. Again, this doesn't matter because it is a sport. It is a sport recognized across the globe and is a member of sanctioning sport bodies.

To consolidate:
1) Regardless of the intention of its creator, Judo, the sport, IS combat effective.

2) Regardless of any Japanese suffix, BJJ, an effective method of self defense, IS a world-wide recognized sport.

I don't see how the two above premises are debatable.

[Jack Stay]

Thread reopened out of courtesy to Jack, if he chooses to respond.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,

I had to retie my obi for this response: :karate:

1,) "BJJ has not eliminated throwing, it has just changed the priorities."

Well see Jeff, that's one of the criticisms of BJJ, it is just the 'inverse of Judo', not an improvement. The jiu-jitsu throws from which Judo nage-waza were derived generally would have ended the fight (busted arms, wrenched shoulders, torn ligaments) then the opponent would have been finished off on the ground if the throw were ineffective; that is why Judo places emphasis on throwing techniques first, stemming from its jiu-jitsu origins. BJJ is doing it all wrong and trying to justify it to the masses by claiming newaza is better.

2) "Judo is considering more of a BJJ approach, it seems."

Another conceit of a BJJ practitioner, that Judo is being influenced by BJJ and not by the dozens of other styles of jiu-jitsu in existance. Judo has been under the influence from free-style wrestling, professional wrestling, Roman-Greco wrestling, S.A.M.B.O., and several other styles of jiu-jitsu for decades before the advent of BJJ. Not only do BJJ/Judoka make the Olympic teams, but so do Free-Style Wrestlers/Judoka (e.g. Jimmy Pedro Jr.) make the Olympic teams, and again, wrestling has decades more pressure on Judo than BJJ, so if anything, the IJF is considering a more wrestling approach to Judo.

3) Regarding the article: 'Judo Vision 2000'

As you probably know, or should know, the IJF is not the only governing body for Judo; neither the AJJF nor the World Championships recognize all the IJF rulings. There is probably no 'scores for pins face down' in Judo because either the All Japan Judo Federation says so, or that it is universally accepted, even in wrestling, that being pinned on one's back is a sign of defeat. Though in Judo being submitted face down is accepted, via chokes or armbars. The opinions expressed in the article 'Judo Vision 2000' are not necessarily those of all governing bodies in world Judo, and not all the rules of the IJF have been universally accepted.

4.) "Ju-jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF."

You stated that the Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federation - so? The JJIF does not represent all of ju-jitsu! Another conceit of the BJJ people, they think anytime someone mentions jiu-jitsu, they're talking about BJJ, and that is not the case. Kenjitsu is not a sport. Daito-ryu aikijujitsu is not a sport. Hakko-Ryu Jiu-jitsu is not a sport. Danzan-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu is not a sport......etc. etc. ad infintitum .

Also, please review your basic logic, Guilt (or innocence) by association is a fallicy in logic! Just because BJJ rode the coattails and got accepted by the GAISF via the non-representative JJIF, DOES NOT MAKE A JIU-JITSU STYLE A SPORT! This is a case of false validity and another cheap ploy on the part of the BJJ people.

5.) "It is Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, not Japanese!"

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, by its own definition, is Japanese: Jiu-jitsu is, by very fact, JAPANESE! The great majority of BJJ is composed of Japanese jiu-jitsu techniques, with some western combat techniques thrown in. As I wrote before, BJJ is reinventing itself, heavily borrowing techniques from other styles of jiu-jitsu and western fighting arts, to continually change itself - just like S.A.M.B.O. before it. Except the Russians had the moxie to use a Russian acronym to describe their 'new' plagiarized version of Judo. If the Japanese Jiu-jitsu the Gracie family is claiming to utilize is true, then its time the Gracies go full circle and rename their supposed improvement of Japanese jiu-jitsu, giving it a Portugeese name of acronym. Why is the Japanese word 'Jiu-Jitsu' still being used in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, if BJJ is not Japanese?


So Jeff, if the IJF were the sole governing body on Judo, I would be wrong.
If the JJIF were the sole governing body on all jiu-jitsu, your claim that BJJ is a sport would be true.
If it wasn't for the fact that other styles of jiu-jitsu and wrestling had pressured Judo decades before the appearance of BJJ, then your conceit that Judo is taking a BJJ approach to tournament would also be true.

Every assertion you made regarding the influence of BJJ on Judo is patently false and unprovable.

The IJF rules and philosophy regarding Judo is felt by many to be in noncompliance with Dr. Kano's tenets of maximum effeciency with minimum effort, and mutual benefit and welfare. Therefore the IJF is harming Judo, trying to force it to become a sport.

And as far as my chances in newaza against a BJJ blue or purple belt, it would be unfair to pit an experienced Judo nidan against a lower ranking 'kyu' practitioner of a Judo clone or Judo hybrid masquerading as a jitsu. There are far too many obvious Judo techniques in BJJ, such as juji-gatame or ude-garami, which I have had years of tournament victories for me to use against a blue belt.

I found a BJJ dojo in Massachusetts, along with an American Jiu-jitsu dojo, Swedish Jiu-jitsu dojo, and a Danzan-Ryu Jitsu dojo and I will visit and compare all four, to see if they have anything to offer.

Thanks for your patience Jeff. :bow:
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

"Thank's Jack"
"Your Welcome"
"No, No, not you! We named the monkey Jack!" :wink2:

[Jack Stay]

I'm not even sure why I'm contributing to this thing, but Jack mentioned that anything witha "do" is a sport and is therefore not suitable as a combat method, and the inverse for a "jitsu." What some people are trying to say is that regardless of extension, the proof is in the pudding. You keep saying that Judo was never meant to be combat effective, it was meant to be a sport. That fact is irrelevant. Judo is combat effective. You also keep saying that BJJ is a "jitsu" and so is meant for combat, not sport. Again, this doesn't matter because it is a sport. It is a sport recognized across the globe and is a member of sanctioning sport bodies.

To consolidate:
1) Regardless of the intention of its creator, Judo, the sport, IS combat effective.

2) Regardless of any Japanese suffix, BJJ, an effective method of self defense, IS a world-wide recognized sport.

I don't see how the two above premises are debatable.

Hi Michael,

No, I've never said a 'do' style is a sport. In fact I am vehemently against that interpretation. The Judo shiai (tournament) is sports compatable, and that is where the similarity ends. Again, to reiterate, (in my opinion) no martial art is a sport.

The Japanese martial arts were divided up into 'jitsu' and 'do' because of the Meiji Restoration (1868-1910) edicts banning the samurai and their threat against the Meiji government. To save the killing and maiming 'jitsu' styles, they were turned into a more humane and less 'threatening-to-the- government' 'do' styles. YES, the self-defense element were retained when the jitsu's became 'do'. The Japanese police use Judo to footsweep and throw rioters because it is more humane than to snap necks and break arms using Jiu-jitsu. Judo is not combat effective as compared to Jiu-jitsu! Again, Judo is a watered down, more humane, version of ju-jitsu. I would rather use jiu-jitsu in a street fight anyday than Judo! YET, you can defend yourself using Judo in a simple way as compared to jiu-jitsu.

Jiu-jitsu cannot be a sport because of its combat orientation, as compared to Ju-do's tournament orientation. Unfortunately, a Judo tournament resembles a sport, and that is the source of Judo's demise.

There are too many styles of jiu-jitsu for any one world organization to represent and have the authority to broadly designate jiu-jitsu as a sport. Certainly my style of jiu-jitsu, Hakko-Ryu, http://hakkoryu.com, contains 'zero' sport application.

I hope I've made myself clear. :)

Thanks!
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Webmaster]

<<sSnip>>4.) "Ju-jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF."

You stated that the Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federation - so? The JJIF does not represent all of ju-jitsu! Another conceit of the BJJ people, they think anytime someone mentions jiu-jitsu, they're talking about BJJ, and that is not the case. Kenjitsu is not a sport. Daito-ryu aikijujitsu is not a sport. Hakko-Ryu Jiu-jitsu is not a sport. Danzan-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu is not a sport......etc. etc. ad infintitum .

Also, please review your basic logic, Guilt (or innocence) by association is a fallicy in logic! Just because BJJ rode the coattails and got accepted by the GAISF via the non-representative JJIF, DOES NOT MAKE A JIU-JITSU STYLE A SPORT! This is a case of false validity and another cheap ploy on the part of the BJJ people.


Jack, you need to get your freaking facts straight BEFORE you start running off at the keyboard. I am the former Vice President of the United States Ju-Jitsu Federation, and we and the JJIF IS NOT A BJJ ORGANIZATION. For the most part, the USJJF and the JJIF are comprised of either Japanese or modern eclectic systems of Ju-Jitsu. The number of members in the USJJF that actually do the competition is quite small relative to the actual number of members, and the majority do not engage in the sport aspect. The type of competition is NOT BJJ and BJJ is not a recognized system of Ju-Jitsu within the USJJF.

Also, you assertion that Danzan-Ryu does not do competition is not accurate. If you go to the AJJF and Ju-Jitsu America websites, you will see information about a competition program that they have.

So before you just jump and start slinging around BS, start doing some research. You are only continuing to show how ignorant you are on the subject and worse, that your bias against BJJ will blind you to not utilize any common sense.

This response Jack has really pissed me off. I expect that your tune will change in your very next post, or I will be enforcing the rule with regard to members trashing other members styles and suspending your membership priveledges.

[Jack Stay]

Jack, you need to get your freaking facts straight BEFORE you start running off at the keyboard. I am the former Vice President of the United States Ju-Jitsu Federation, and we and the JJIF IS NOT A BJJ ORGANIZATION. For the most part, the USJJF and the JJIF are comprised of either Japanese or modern eclectic systems of Ju-Jitsu. The number of members in the USJJF that actually do the competition is quite small relative to the actual number of members, and the majority do not engage in the sport aspect. The type of competition is NOT BJJ and BJJ is not a recognized system of Ju-Jitsu within the USJJF.

Also, you assertion that Danzan-Ryu does not do competition is not accurate. If you go to the AJJF and Ju-Jitsu America websites, you will see information about a competition program that they have.

So before you just jump and start slinging around BS, start doing some research. You are only continuing to show how ignorant you are on the subject and worse, that your bias against BJJ will blind you to not utilize any common sense.

This response Jack has really pissed me off. I expect that your tune will change in your very next post, or I will be enforcing the rule with regard to members trashing other members styles and suspending your membership priveledges.

Hi Robert:

Are you aware that I was responding to a Jeff C. quote from his prior post?

____________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Webmaster]

Yes, and in not one place did Jeff say or otherwise imply that the USJJF or JJIF was a BJJ organization.

[Jack Stay]

Yes, and in not one place did Jeff say or otherwise imply that the USJJF or JJIF was a BJJ organization.

Hi Robert,

I was responding to Jeff C.'s post number 42.

Jeff C. stated in post #42 that because Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is affiliated with the JJIF and that the JJIF is a full member of the GAISF, that makes BJJ, or jiu-jitsu, a sport. I simple disagreed.

Also, in my own defense, nowhere did I mention the USJJF in any of my responses.

And what you call competition in Danzan-Ryu Jiu-jitsu, we call randori. Again, there is no all-encompassing body which represents all styles of jiu-jitsu. The operative word here is 'ALL' styles. Some styles maybe, a group of styles most likely, but not all styles.

Sorry this explanation was necessary.
_______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Webmaster]

I know what Jeff said in Post #42 and he did NOT say that BJJ is affiliated with the JJIF. Here is what was said:

He was responding to your comment:
"But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish."

His reply:
Really? Perhaps you are not aware that The Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF), the recognized International Federations of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Ju-Jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF.

Please show me where BJJ is used anywhere in his paragraph.

[Jeff C.]

Actually, Jack, I DID NOT say that BJJ is a member of the JJIF, GAISF, or any other sport body. Your blind and vehement condemnation of BJJ is making you see things.

I was simply responding to your remark, "By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance. But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish." I put the bold emphasis in there for your benefit.

Robert's admonition for you to get your facts straight is pretty good advice. The All Japan Judo Federation (AJJF) is a member of the Judo Union of Asia, which is a member of the International Judo Federation (IJF). The IJF is THE governing body OVER the AJJF. http://www.ijf.org/member/introduce_view.php?MemIdx=63 Furthermore, from the IJF charter, of which the AJJF is a subordinate member,

"4. Aims

Among others, the IJF has the following aims:

a. To promote cordial and friendly relations between its members and to supervise judo activity throughout the world."

Your quote, "...neither the AJJF nor the World Championships recognize all the IJF rulings." Good God, man, where do you come up with this stuff? Do you even bother to research your assumptions before you state them as fact?

From the World Championships 2003 webpage: "(1)The Competition will be held in accordance with the Sports and Organization Rules and the Refereeing Rules of IJF." If you don't believe me than please look at the page: http://lightning.bold.co.jp/world-judo.com/en/home/convention.html

Jack, your opinions of BJJ do not offend me, but your factual inaccuracies are inexcusable.

"Every assertion you made regarding the influence of BJJ on Judo is patently false and unprovable."

I don't think I was trying to assert any such thing. When I remarked that judo seemed to be adopting more of a BJJ model for competition, I did NOT say it was a result of BJJ directly influencing judo. I was only pointing out that they are finally starting to adopt the same sound competition strategies that are already being used in BJJ. Those same strategies are used in other grappling sports as well, as you pointed out. If you weren't so blind in your disdain of BJJ, you might see that different sports can adopt the same sound strategies all on their own without necessarily being influenced by each other.

"And as far as my chances in newaza against a BJJ blue or purple belt, it would be unfair to pit an experienced Judo nidan against a lower ranking 'kyu' practitioner of a Judo clone or Judo hybrid masquerading as a jitsu."

That sounds suspiciously of fear of failure masquerading as arrogance. For what it's worth, I have personally observed many friendly newaza matches between judo dan ranks and BJJ blue belts. I have YET to see a judo dan holder defeat a blue belt in newaza. Not saying it can't happen or that it doesn't happen, just saying I've never observed it. In fact, the local BJJ club has no less than FIVE judo dan holders studying BJJ newaza to improve their game, because they had their butts handed to them by BJJ blue belts.

"I found a BJJ dojo in Massachusetts, along with an American Jiu-jitsu dojo, Swedish Jiu-jitsu dojo, and a Danzan-Ryu Jitsu dojo and I will visit and compare all four, to see if they have anything to offer."

I commend you on your decision to do that, and to follow through on it. It is fine to have a friendly argument about such things, as long as we are willing to try to experience the other side.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Jack Stay]

I know what Jeff said in Post #42 and he did NOT say that BJJ is affiliated with the JJIF. Here is what was said:

He was responding to your comment:
"But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish."

His reply:
Really? Perhaps you are not aware that The Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF), the recognized International Federations of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Ju-Jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF.

Please show me where BJJ is used anywhere in his paragraph.

If you show me where I mentioned the USJJF in any of my posts? :D

O.K. Robert, now please follow closely:

Me: "By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance."

Jeff C's response: "How is it trying to 'ingratiate itself?' Are you not aware that BJJ has already won 'international acceptance?' ".

Me: "But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish."

Jeff C. : "Really? Perhaps you are not aware that The Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) is a full member of the General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF), the recognized International Federations [sic] of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Ju-Jitsu is a World Games Sport and is a member of the Olympic Family of Sports through the GAISF."

1.)Now Robert, why would Jeff C. mention the JJIF when trying to prove that BJJ is a sport or internationally accepted by mentioning the JJIF connection to the IOC via the GAISF?

Why even mention the IOC in connection to BJJ, when BJJ isn't even an Olympic event? Also, this is pure rationalization of the part of Jeff C. if he contends that BJJ's is remotely affiliated with any of these organizations.

2.) If Jeff C. did not intend to affiliated BJJ with the JJIF, WHY DID HE MENTION THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

As a side observation, If you, or anyone thinks, that the JJIF has the authority to represent all styles of jiu-jitsu, I seriously doubt your martial arts knowledge. And if you, or anyone, or any organization, thinks that jiu-jitsu is a 'sport', then I seriously doubt that person' or organization's credibility!

Where has BJJ won international acceptance? It is neither an Olympic event nor included in the World Championships or the Korean Championships or the European Championships or the Pan Am Games?

Thanks! :karate:
_______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jack Stay]

Actually, Jack, I DID NOT say that BJJ is a member of the JJIF, GAISF, or any other sport body. Your blind and vehement condemnation of BJJ is making you see things.

I was simply responding to your remark, "By attempting to ingratiate itself with its parent style, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is trying to become another Judo to win international acceptance. But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish." I put the bold emphasis in there for your benefit.

Robert's admonition for you to get your facts straight is pretty good advice. The All Japan Judo Federation (AJJF) is a member of the Judo Union of Asia, which is a member of the International Judo Federation (IJF). The IJF is THE governing body OVER the AJJF. http://www.ijf.org/member/introduce_view.php?MemIdx=63 Furthermore, from the IJF charter, of which the AJJF is a subordinate member,

"4. Aims

Among others, the IJF has the following aims:

a. To promote cordial and friendly relations between its members and to supervise judo activity throughout the world."

Your quote, "...neither the AJJF nor the World Championships recognize all the IJF rulings." Good God, man, where do you come up with this stuff? Do you even bother to research your assumptions before you state them as fact?

From the World Championships 2003 webpage: "(1)The Competition will be held in accordance with the Sports and Organization Rules and the Refereeing Rules of IJF." If you don't believe me than please look at the page: http://lightning.bold.co.jp/world-judo.com/en/home/convention.html

Jack, your opinions of BJJ do not offend me, but your factual inaccuracies are inexcusable.

"Every assertion you made regarding the influence of BJJ on Judo is patently false and unprovable."

I don't think I was trying to assert any such thing. When I remarked that judo seemed to be adopting more of a BJJ model for competition, I did NOT say it was a result of BJJ directly influencing judo. I was only pointing out that they are finally starting to adopt the same sound competition strategies that are already being used in BJJ. Those same strategies are used in other grappling sports as well, as you pointed out. If you weren't so blind in your disdain of BJJ, you might see that different sports can adopt the same sound strategies all on their own without necessarily being influenced by each other.

"And as far as my chances in newaza against a BJJ blue or purple belt, it would be unfair to pit an experienced Judo nidan against a lower ranking 'kyu' practitioner of a Judo clone or Judo hybrid masquerading as a jitsu."

That sounds suspiciously of fear of failure masquerading as arrogance. For what it's worth, I have personally observed many friendly newaza matches between judo dan ranks and BJJ blue belts. I have YET to see a judo dan holder defeat a blue belt in newaza. Not saying it can't happen or that it doesn't happen, just saying I've never observed it. In fact, the local BJJ club has no less than FIVE judo dan holders studying BJJ newaza to improve their game, because they had their butts handed to them by BJJ blue belts.

"I found a BJJ dojo in Massachusetts, along with an American Jiu-jitsu dojo, Swedish Jiu-jitsu dojo, and a Danzan-Ryu Jitsu dojo and I will visit and compare all four, to see if they have anything to offer."

I commend you on your decision to do that, and to follow through on it. It is fine to have a friendly argument about such things, as long as we are willing to try to experience the other side.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,

Why doesn't the AJJF recognize IFJ dan promotions? Why doesn't the AJJF use IJF sanctioned blue gi's in the All Japan Judo Championships? Why does the AJJC have a special 'weight' shiai to qualify Judoka for the Olympics only, but the real AJJC shiai still has no weight divisions as sanctioned by the IFJ, despite the AJJC membership in the IJF?

There are some flaws in your reasoning.

Thanks.
__________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jeff C.]

Jack, I don't know if you are being intentionally ignorant to be inflamatory or if it just comes naturally. I have to assume the second; I cannot imagine someone embarassing himself to this point on purpose.

The AJJF says they hold the championships "in accordance with the Sports and Organization Rules and the Refereeing Rules of IJF." Jack says otherwise, and clearly states that we should all believe him instead of the AJJF. :rolleyes:

Jack, you've got your butt stuck really deep in a crack with your authoritative statements of non-fact. No amount of trying to twist my words is going to undo that. You know exactly what you said and what you meant, and everyone reading this has also. There is no point in me wasting my time reiterating the obvious.

You're starting to remind me of the guy in Monty Python's "In Search of the Holy Grail" that had both his arms and both his legs cut off by King Arthur. He was left rolling around on the ground, bleeding from four stumps, still insisting that he could fight and win.

Call it a day. I'm sure we can find something new to argue about in the future.

Friendly reminder: Insulting Robert's intelligence will only get you banned. You can insult mine all day; I pretty much expect that from good, open-minded and friendly folks like you. But this is Robert's board, you are in Robert's house.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Webmaster]

Me: "But this would be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish."


1.)Now Robert, why would Jeff C. mention the JJIF when trying to prove that BJJ is a sport or internationally accepted by mentioning the JJIF connection to the IOC via the GAISF?

Since you obviously cannot follow things very closely yourself, let me see if I can make this simple for you. I have bolded the "for any jiu-jitsu style" for your benefit. He was not trying to prove BJJ is an internationally accepted sport, he was referring back to your statement in which you stated it would "be impossible for any jiu-jitsu style to accomplish. Is that now clear enough for you?


2.) If Jeff C. did not intend to affiliated BJJ with the JJIF, WHY DID HE MENTION THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Because YOU made the blanket statement of ANY JIU-JITSU STYLE!


If you show me where I mentioned the USJJF in any of my posts?

By mentioning the Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) as you did, and the USJJF being the NGB for the JJIF, this implies that my organization is also a BJJ organization.


As a side observation, If you, or anyone thinks, that the JJIF has the authority to represent all styles of jiu-jitsu, I seriously doubt your martial arts knowledge.

No, I do not think that the JJIF (or for that matter, the USJJF) has the authority to represent all styles of Jujutsu. In fact, this further shows you ignorance of the subject. The JJIF is an International Governing Body (IGB), and thus does not work by recruiting individual members or styles. You cannot join the JJIF as an individual or even as an individual ryuha. If works in the same manner as other IGBs by having National Governing Bodies as its members (in this case the USJJF) and individuals and affiliate organizations join the NGB. However, in the case of the USJJF, we do no propose to control the individual ryuha and organizatons that join, but to be a coordinating organization to accomplish mutual goals. Individual ryuha and organizations are free to run their own affairs, promote their people as they see fit, participate or not in competition, etc. After 32 years in the martial arts community, I think I have a bit more of a clue than most. When I don't, I will admit that I do not know. That is the difference between us Jack, I am not afraid to admit that I do not know, or that I may have made a mistake.


And if you, or anyone, or any organization, thinks that jiu-jitsu is a 'sport', then I seriously doubt that person' or organization's credibility!

I almost agree with you on this point. I personally do not think that Jujutsu is a sport, however, I do not begrudge others that wish to participate in a sporting aspect. I simply choose to not participate in this aspect. Within the USJJF, we have only a very few competition oriented individuals and dojo. Just like Jujitsu America and the AJJF, there is a few folks that wish to participate in a sporting component, and accomodations are made for those folks so they can. However, most people join organizations such as the USJJF for the support, networking and fellowship that a larger organization can bring.

What I personally think brings into doubt a person's credibility is not whether they think something is or is not a sport, but someone who makes blanket statements, bends words or facts to fit their own argument, shows an unyeilding bias against other groups and those that do not think like you do, demonstrates intolerance and homophobic tendencies, fails to do any independent research before spewing thier jibberish, and cannot admit when they are wrong. You sir have demonstrated each of these throughout our forums. As such, I no longer wish to participate in any discussion in which you are a part. It is obvious that you cannot do anything other than stir the pot, and dealing with you is unproductive. I invite you to be a productive member of our community, but be warned, at the slightest hint of a violation of our rules, or being anything other than a harmonious part of our community, I will terminate your membership without any hesitation or warning.