The 'tori/'uke' relationship in Judo!

[Jack Stay]

I read a comment made in a magazine that Judo people are taught to 'lose' by being taught ukemi (to fall) first in Judo instruction. This first struck me in its ignorance of Judo, but then I realized that this person was never taught the relationship of tori to uke in Judo training.

Please freely comment on this observation: 'tori' does not mean winner, and 'uke' does not mean loser. When learning ukemi (falling) in Judo, you are learning to 'defend'. So when 'tori' attacks you 100% in a Judo throw, 'uke' defends 100% by utilizing a proper ukemi (fall), then picking himself off the tatami with no harm done.

This is also the brilliance of the tori/uke relationship in Aikido (or jujitsu), that when Tori attacks with a viscious wrist throw, the spectacular 'ukemi' by uki is simply a remarkable defense against that technique.

Thus in my opinion: The tori/uke relationship is one of those subtle brilliancies of Judo often misunderstood by the poorly trained, or the unenlightened observer.

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John 'Jack' Stay

[starkjudo]

I disagree completely. The concept of ukemi involves safety in practice, not defense. Defense involves flowing with your opponent's attack, not resisting, but also not surrendering - finding the direction that provides you with a sucessful counter action ay no expense of the flow.

Ukemi is more about safety and survival than defense - not the same thing.

The article in question, and i'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you mean the article by Gerry Lafon, related to how people are taught ukemi as to how it relates to tournament - for instance, we teach people to slap when they land, then send them out to tournament. When they get thrown, the automatic response to to land on the side and do a nice slap to dispel energy, therby creating a Pavlovian response from the referee, in which he gets a big drooling grin on his face, his hand shoots straight up into the air and he shouts, "Ippon!" Some of his replacement techniques include gymnastic cartwheels out of throws - a sucessful counter to the technique that may set uke up to be on the offensive. Traditional ukemi has its place, but it is by far the be-all end-all of modern, sucessful Judo.

Judo describes Tori and Uke as being in a state of mutual welfare and benefit, yes, and there are benefits to using traditional ukemi to safely and sucessfully throw our partner - namely, he/she can stand back up and do the same to us, and we can continue multiple times. But there's no true defense involved here, simply a sucessful attack and a surrendering to the technique by uke. A sucessful defense would, again, be preventing the throw by flowing through the technique to the counter.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Gerald Lafon is probably one of the best judo coaches in the country. His daughter was on the '92 Olympic team.

Is this the article? http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/

[starkjudo]

Well, it's the one I was referring to. You and I must be on the same wavelength, Cliff.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well, it's the one I was referring to. You and I must be on the same wavelength, Cliff.

I used to be on the JUDO-L email list and I remember Lafon talking about turnouts.

[Peter Rehse]

Maybe an obvious point but in randori, shiai and self defence situation there is no tori and uke. These terms refer to a kata situation - the doer vs the doee.

[Runar Bjaaland]

Sirs.

The Uki - Tori relationship makes Judo user friendly just as referencing does for Scientific or academic work.

Learning these roles requires a student to learn to master their own fear in a controlled situation.

Can kata really be seperated from Shia. Practice makes perfect. Things hang together.
An example may be the way sacrifice techniques must be understood before they can function in contest.

The Uki and Tori relationship is possibly a moral statement from an age gone by but for my money still invaluable.

cheers
Runar Bjaaland

[Jack Stay]

Gerald Lafon is probably one of the best judo coaches in the country. His daughter was on the '92 Olympic team.

Is this the article? http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/

Hi Cliff,

Great Article! Nope, I haven't read it before and wasn't referring to it. I was referring to my own first hand experiences.

I was in Camp Olympus in 1972 & 1974 (TARGET '76 olympic training). Anton Geesink was there as the coach for the Austrian National Judo team, with whom I had the priviledge of working out.

For some reason Anton Geesink liked me and took me under his wing, he personally taught me Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi. I got to work out with Allen Coage, Irwin Cohen, and the Austrian Judo Team extensively (and get clobbered by them extensively).

In the 70's the bail out, the gymnastic 'hand spring' , and the Geesink's controversial 'no ukemi' attitude were all the rage. I, and a lot of others, used the hand spring as a defense against Tai-Otoshi (when properly executed, it is very elegant). I 'bailed out' as a pretense to go straight to matwork - BUT we did not give up ukemi.

When I explain a dramatic fall in either Judo or in Aikido, I say that the guy who flipped over (Uke) succesfully neutralized the throw by surviving it.

But I think you guys are correct, that in Shiai (or contest Judo) we are operating in a different dimension.
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John 'Jack' Stay

[Jack Stay]

Maybe an obvious point but in randori, shiai and self defence situation there is no tori and uke. These terms refer to a kata situation - the doer vs the doee.

Hi Peter,

Yes, that is a significant point. In the dimension of shiai (contest) the uke/tori distinction dwindles, but not necessarily in randori. Randori is not contest (shiai) so the tori/uke relationship (in my observation) is still present.

I think its Randori which helps make Judo quite unique.

Please view the Budoseek thread: Kano Article

and puruse Dr. Kano's philosophy regarding randori in:

'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Jigoro Kano

http://www.judoinfo.com/kano1.htm

Thanx!
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John 'Jack' Stay

[starkjudo]

Hi Peter,

Yes, that is a significant point. In the dimension of shiai (contest) the uke/tori distinction dwindles, but not necessarily in randori. Randori is not contest (shiai) so the tori/uke relationship (in my observation) is still present.

I think its Randori which helps make Judo quite unique.



I'd agree with both those ideas. When I randori with lower ranks, assuming i'm not working with a much bigger guy and doing my best not to get mauled by him, I try to provide opportunities for my partner to find ways to throw me. Granted, i'm not perfect here: Too many times I do allow it to turn into a semi-shiai situation.

I'd agree with the second statement too; there aren't too many arts that even attempt to do the techniques at the level of Judo. Legit Jujitsu practitioners, please take note: i'm not knocking you guys here, since i've known too many of you. At the same time, i'll note that the good ones i've known have also had at least some detailed experience in Judo as well, and know what works and what doesn't.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Interesting points Jack.

As far as not training ukemi and emphasising turnouts and posting, I think that should be left to the power players in national and international competitions. It's kind of dangerous for us mortals. If anyone saw Yoshida's arm in the Sydney Olympics then you know what I mean.

[Jack Stay]

Interesting points Jack.

As far as not training ukemi and emphasising turnouts and posting, I think that should be left to the power players in national and international competitions. It's kind of dangerous for us mortals. If anyone saw Yoshida's arm in the Sydney Olympics then you know what I mean.

Hi Cliff,

There is a dramatic change in Judo as one reaches the upper levels of competition. I reached the very lower fringes of 'power players' and the Judo gets very, very rough. You start becoming aware of unspoken rules of international competition and Judo's dirty little secret (it almost turns into street fighting jiu-jitsu).

Balance breaking (kazushi) includes punches and elbows (i.e. you wrap your right fist inside your opponents gi and clout him in the jaw as you 'break' his balance for a particular throw). Of course the gentleman will return the favor.

You actually try to break the arm when applying kansetsu-waza. You always fall on top of your opponent (with a strategically placed elbow in his ribs) in any throw to remove him from the list.

The skill level of international Judo players at the 4th dan and 5th dan level is so very high, that they can be taken by only certain throws.

Also, similar to international chess players, stalemates are common in world class Judo. When two extremely skilled 5th degrees go at it, they commonly defend against each other so successfully, that no throw or pin is made, so that its ends up being a judge's decision.

The physics, attitude, psychology, and techniques all change as you enter the Twilight Zone of International Judo Competition.

It is very common for wrestlers, S.A.M.B.O.ists, and others, to infiltrate Judo on the lower levels such as local and regional shiais, but usually not in upper level tournaments.

I still 'bale out' and do a 'hand spring' out of a tai-otoshi (body drop) occasionally, but I know all too well they won't work in a major tournament.

Thanks!
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John 'Jack' Stay