Choshi Dori - Boneman

[sojobow]

Choshi Dori is not the same thing as triangulation. In a few instances, one can use Choshi Dori within the movements of triangulation but one would have to be very well trained because using the techniques of the ancient Choshi Dori will actually slow down the actions in triangulation. But one thing I do see in its usage would be the concealment of motions and intentions. This usages would be an element within triangulation. Maybe when I move up in the system, it might be allowed but now, no way unless I make sure that I use it withing the motions of triangulation (or hide withing). Said another way, Choshi Dori might be considered as an "extra step" or "lost time" or a "inefficient use of time and timing." I am now looking more into this concept. Again, very interesting post with it's intellect.

Fascinating post young man. It's all part of "martial science." You might want to consider first the fuction of the thalamus (the gateway to the brain) and, moreso, the hypothalamus and its function. I am now considering how to bybass the amygdala and its play on the emotions which might play a role in triangulating and use the functions already developed in the hypothalamus. Or more concise, try to train the hypothalamus to have recognized and have evaluated the signals revealed by the cortex thereby overlaying or bypassing the amygdala's effects. This takes endless training and is acute to timing and the concepts of Musashi's Void. Yours is one of the best posts I've come across lately. I am researching and developing a more coherant explanation and a faster response time versus dealing with the amygdala. Thanks for the heads-up. Sorry, this may not be a good place to discuss the implications and the training methods of triangulating.

Also, as far as my own fighting is concerned, sojobow don't jab, cross or hook; don't tomeo nage or o goshi; don't kiai or head butt and definately don't roll. Can't fight so I just cheat.

[Dale Seago]

The Bujinkan has used the term "choshi dori" for quite some time as a descriptor for certain classes of techniques: For example, it's documented in the famous "purple taijutsu book" often confused with the Tenchijin ryu no maki; in that book, published twenty years or so ago, Hatsumi sensei uses it in reference to what one of the sanshin no kata techniques is actually "about".

I'm willing to bet that no one in DRN ever made use of the term "choshi dori" until after my last-weekend-of-February Bujinkan seminar at the University of Southern California, which was attended by a number of Duxlings and where I demonstrated and explained a minuscule bit about it. I also was talking about it around that time in a 2-page thread in a Russian Martial Art forum (http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212) where I also explained some of it in a bit more technical detail.

What we call choshi dori is not unique to the Bujinkan, as the thread makes clear. I first saw it used, and had it explained to me, by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aiki bugei (who did not have a name for it) around 16 years ago. That opened my eyes to be able to see some of what Hatsumi sensei was doing with it within some of his movement. And of course it's also found in Russian Systema.

The term choshi dori, however, is a ripoff from the Bujinkan just like other systems using the term "shidoshi" for an instructor.

[DuckofDeath]

Maybe Hanshi chosi doried the Fish...

[BoneBreaker]

Choshi Dori is not the same thing as triangulation.

If not Chosi Dori, what is triangulation?


In a few instances, one can use Choshi Dori within the movements of triangulation but one would have to be very well trained because using the techniques of the ancient Choshi Dori will actually slow down the actions in triangulation.

Please explain why it would slow it down, My first question about what is triangulation might help answer this question or at least my understanding.


Maybe when I move up in the system, it might be allowed but now, no way unless I make sure that I use it withing the motions of triangulation (or hide withing).

What rank are you in DRN if you dont mind me asking?


Said another way, Choshi Dori might be considered as an "extra step" or "lost time" or a "inefficient use of time and timing." I am now looking more into this concept. Again, very interesting post with it's intellect.

"Said another way" ???? If done correctly there is no way I can see that it would not be extremely useful especailly in a system where you do not DEFEND, done incorrectly or ineffectively it would be "wasted Motion" without question. I do not see the correlation between saying it differently and it not being effective or executed incorrectly. Maybe you can expound and clear this up for me.


Fascinating post young man. It's all part of "martial science."

Can you be more specific about how it relates to "Martial Science", if you cannot I undrestand, as your rank might hinder your own ability to understand. I just want something concrete on how it is taught, if by drills, specified movements, jedi mind tricks. Anything that would make it a a bit more tangible is what I am after



You might want to consider first the fuction of the thalamus (the gateway to the brain) and, moreso, the hypothalamus and its function. I am now considering how to bybass the amygdala and its play on the emotions which might play a role in triangulating and use the functions already developed in the hypothalamus.

Well I have of sorts, with Dr Sensei's description of how the noobs are trained in DRN I related that to chosi dori. If you don't defend or simply defend by attack how could you not use chosi dori or something similar against a skilled-game opponent?



Yours is one of the best posts I've come across lately. I am researching and developing a more coherant explanation and a faster response time versus dealing with the amygdala. Thanks for the heads-up. Sorry, this may not be a good place to discuss the implications and the training methods of triangulating.

I truly welcome your dialog on this subject. You are the only person who has even attempted to join the topic and "contribute". *Salute*


Also, as far as my own fighting is concerned, sojobow don't jab, cross or hook; don't tomeo nage or o goshi; don't kiai or head butt and definately don't roll. Can't fight so I just cheat.

I roll, pull, twist, tear, break, crush, destroy judo whitebelts. :laugh:
I kill "Kenpo" blackbelts all day long over and over :mad:
I killed a frog once :o
I killed a thread on this forum :rolleyes:
Jay Bell is sexy in a gi :wave:

[BoneBreaker]

The Bujinkan has used the term "choshi dori" for quite some time as a descriptor for certain classes of techniques: For example, it's documented in the famous "purple taijutsu book" often confused with the Tenchijin ryu no maki; in that book, published twenty years or so ago, Hatsumi sensei uses it in reference to what one of the sanshin no kata techniques is actually "about".

I'm willing to bet that no one in DRN ever made use of the term "choshi dori" until after my last-weekend-of-February Bujinkan seminar at the University of Southern California, which was attended by a number of Duxlings and where I demonstrated and explained a minuscule bit about it. I also was talking about it around that time in a 2-page thread in a Russian Martial Art forum (http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212) where I also explained some of it in a bit more technical detail.

What we call choshi dori is not unique to the Bujinkan, as the thread makes clear. I first saw it used, and had it explained to me, by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aiki bugei (who did not have a name for it) around 16 years ago. That opened my eyes to be able to see some of what Hatsumi sensei was doing with it within some of his movement. And of course it's also found in Russian Systema.

The term choshi dori, however, is a ripoff from the Bujinkan just like other systems using the term "shidoshi" for an instructor.

The term "chosi dori" was given to me by a ninjur from Koga Ryu Ninjitsu not DRN. I related it to triangulation and wondered if the term shares similar concepts. I have not seen or heard anyone from DRN speaking or using the term chosi dori in relation to DRN or martial science until this very thread. Your term Duxlings is derrogatory for "just another ninjur" such as yourself. But thanks for trying to contribute something, I do apprecaite that much about your "pat myself on the back" post.

[BoneBreaker]

Maybe Hanshi chosi doried the Fish...

I doubt "Hanshi" was even there.

[Dale Seago]

The term "chosi dori" was given to me by a ninjur from Koga Ryu Ninjitsu not DRN. . .I have not seen or heard anyone from DRN speaking or using the term chosi dori in relation to DRN or martial science until this very thread.

I couldn't care less who ripped it off, just as I neither know nor care who first appropriated the term "shidoshi" from the Bujinkan.

[Don Roley]

I'm willing to bet that no one in DRN ever made use of the term "choshi dori" until after my last-weekend-of-February Bujinkan seminar at the University of Southern California, which was attended by a number of Duxlings and where I demonstrated and explained a minuscule bit about it. I also was talking about it around that time in a 2-page thread in a Russian Martial Art forum (http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212) where I also explained some of it in a bit more technical detail.

That is the problem with Pirates in the Martial Arts. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm) I know you have seen that article before. They are quick to pick up scraps of information, but not willing to take enough time to learn the whole picture. 6 onths after you introduced the Dux guys to the idea, they are trying to present it as their own thing by way of the Koga ryu. You can't master something like this in half a year, but there are folks willing to teach it.

[BoneBreaker]

you guys are so wrapped up in being right you cannot see what is in front of your nose. DRN is in no way affiliated with the koga ryu ninjitsu school I am referring to http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/bodokininjitsu.net/ . DRN only claims lineage to Koga Yamabushi ninjitsu, it's not even real as most of us know. And on top of that you have the gaul to imply that chosi dori did not exist before bujinkan? It is called feinting and drawing in boxing. The science behind it is interesting and factual. I suppose bujinkan invented that as well. Chosi dori is terminology for something that has existed since the beginning of man.

I would also like to ask how you teach someone feinting/chosi dori. What do you use to teach it? Or do you just talk about it? I know what they use in boxing to teach it, I know how basketball and soccer teach it. I don't know how ninja's practice or teach it. I am not sure they or you actually teach it, I think you just talk about it, and how it is being pirated and what not. Throw it out at a seminar or two and let people guess or learn by trial and error instead of understanding what it is on a fundamental level. And Thusly teaching someone how to do it effectively.

Use a large mirror to practice feints. Why?
The movement in a feint must be precise and rapid. Why?
The reactions produced by each feint should be expected. Why and How?
Vary the feints. Don’t Use the same feint more than twice in succession. Why?
Make the feint convincing. Use the eyes, body, feet and legs to produce the action desired. Why does this matter?

Success depends on speed, timing and judgement.

Let's get technical and compare some things instead of calling everyone a thief. That is childish and arrogant. :cool:

[Don Roley]

you guys are so wrapped up in being right you cannot see what is in front of your nose. DRN is in no way affiliated with the koga ryu ninjitsu school I am referring to http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/bodokininjitsu.net/ .

Could you give a guy some warning? That site nearly had me fall out of my seat with laughter. Another wanna- be ninja group with no ties to Japan or prior to the age of disco music.



And on top of that you have the gaul to imply that chosi dori did not exist before bujinkan?

The title for it did not. But with the internet, the use of such terms has become widespread as people take comcepts they have little real understanding of, and try to pass it off as their own.

[sojobow]

[QUOTE=BoneBreaker]If not Chosi Dori, what is triangulation?
I truly welcome your dialog on this subject. You are the only person who has even attempted to join the topic and "contribute". *Salute*
QUOTE]

Understand first that I study the martial science of Ninjitsu. So allow me to discuss my personal experience with Choshi Dori. This discussion has nothing to do with any Ryu. What goes on behind closed doors, stays.

With, or against, an experienced, well trained Ninjitsu practioner, Choshi Dori would not be effective as the art trains us to have seen the truth BEFORE it happens. As stated before, a Ninjitsuist bypasses the Amygdala and it's resultant chemical and electrical stimuli. We spend considerable time developing the hypothalamus. Beginners will be effected by CD (Choshi Dori)because they have not developed their Hypothalamus. Their Amygdala will kick in, cause other glands to develope such things as adrinolin/edrin - (sp.l) and, at the same time, have to determind fight or flight. The 3 to 6 seconds it takes for the Amygdala to make this determination will get you hit more than 30 times or kicked at least 12 times and then taken down (or some conbination thereof). A well developed Hypothalamus will have already labeled and filed the correct response and will have already determined fight as flight has already been discounted as an option (warhammer once said that flight will only result in us to die tired).

To a well-trained Ninjitsuist, what the opponent does - matters not. It does take from 3 to 5 seconds for a Ninjitsuist to determind his opponent's martial ability (somebody told me this). 5 seconds if the opponent is a good martial artist. Once this is determined, it will dictate how much effort and experience will be necessary to render you no longer effective against my own attack. During this 3 to 5 seconds, the Ninjitsuist has 'disappeared.'

Regrettable, but you and I will have to wait until drsenei decides to post his information on triangulation according to his website. It is worth waiting for. I wouldn't supercede his wish.

As Mr. Seago said, few even know the term CD. His Ryu, as most, actually use the term but in separate the words. A technique may end with either word Choshi or Dori. A throw may have Dori within it's name etc. But the complete term is rarely used today. We may know what it is but not by the name as you have described. Most of us concentrate in how to fight and spend little time studying the science and developing our minds and spirits.

Wish I could say more, but I can't.

[althaur]

And on top of that you have the gaul to imply that chosi dori did not exist before bujinkan? It is called feinting and drawing in boxing. The science behind it is interesting and factual. I suppose bujinkan invented that as well. Chosi dori is terminology for something that has existed since the beginning of man.

I would also like to ask how you teach someone feinting/chosi dori. What do you use to teach it? Or do you just talk about it? I know what they use in boxing to teach it, I know how basketball and soccer teach it. I don't know how ninja's practice or teach it. I am not sure they or you actually teach it, I think you just talk about it, and how it is being pirated and what not. Throw it out at a seminar or two and let people guess or learn by trial and error instead of understanding what it is on a fundamental level. And Thusly teaching someone how to do it effectively.

Use a large mirror to practice feints. Why?
The movement in a feint must be precise and rapid. Why?
The reactions produced by each feint should be expected. Why and How?
Vary the feints. Don’t Use the same feint more than twice in succession. Why?
Make the feint convincing. Use the eyes, body, feet and legs to produce the action desired. Why does this matter?

Success depends on speed, timing and judgement.

Let's get technical and compare some things instead of calling everyone a thief. That is childish and arrogant. :cool:


A feint would be pretty low level. Choshi Dori, as Dale has taught, means seizing the rythm. I take that to mean a number of things from experience. One, setting the timing and rythm of the encounter by futzing up everything the opponent is trying to do. Basically leading him down the long(or sometimes short) road to doom. Physical aspects of the CD will look like you are directing the strikes; in other words, you make his attacks go where you want. CD also involves changing your opponents intended targets without him knowing it. It is not only physical, but mental as well. You are seizing the rythm of the body and the mind(damn, I hate using that and sounding all mystical).

The Bujinkan obviously didn't invent CD. However, I don't think anyone else has used the term except the Bujinkan until just recently.

I'm sure Dale could explain all of this better. I'm also sure he will correct me on most of it. As far as how he teaches it, I seem to remember a 6 hour day that was devoted to nothing BUT the principles of CD. It may behoove you to know to whom you are actually talking down to next time.

Oh yeah, it's not a rank thing. Newbies are exposed to it almost from day one. I would say that sojobow is taking a cop out, since his experience with it was more than likely a day long seminar where Dale mentioned it. :)


Josh

[althaur]

His Ryu, as most, actually use the term but in separate the words. A technique may end with either word Choshi or Dori. A throw may have Dori within it's name etc. But the complete term is rarely used today.[/B] We may know what it is but not by the name as you have described. Most of us concentrate in how to fight and spend little time studying the science and developing our minds and spirits.

Wish I could say more, but I can't.

WHAAAAAAT?! Where on Earth did you get this?! Did you eat too much bran and just have this fly out an orifice? You really do have no idea what you are talking about. Glad you are so up to date on your Bujinkan studies.

Josh

[sojobow]

WHAAAAAAT?! Where on Earth did you get this?! Did you eat too much bran and just have this fly out an orifice? You really do have no idea what you are talking about. Glad you are so up to date on your Bujinkan studies.
Josh

You're right. Don't know much about Bujinkan (and don't really care). Only thing is that if we look at what is stated on the Bujinkan test for 8th and 9th kyu (or is it 1st and 2nd - I forgot, it's been a while), you'll see what I was trying to say about how (in some ways) they use the words Choshi and Dori. So I guess the "where on earth" I saw this must have been on their lists of what they need to know in order to pass the next test. Forgive me, I must need some bran, with a little fruit, sugar and milk while I read whats on their test. Better leave you guys to what you do best and stay out of your business. pardon.

You guys still trying to find out if I was at Dale's seminar?

[sojobow]

WHAAAAAAT?! Where on Earth did you get this?! Did you eat too much bran and just have this fly out an orifice? You really do have no idea what you are talking about. Glad you are so up to date on your Bujinkan studies.

Josh

Josh,

I do wish to appologize for to you and anyone else I may have offended. My statements were out of place and really insignificant. The thread is much to interesting expecially when Mr. Seago participates and shares his knowledge with me. His post are usually keepers and are way above what I would consider as general knowledge on martial arts. I am not a moderator here so I hope they are able to edit my post and remove the portion you referred to.

again, the subject of this thread is too important to close or lock as a result of my statements. I was somewhat serious as I do believe that I have read the two words used in a different manner but I can see how my phrasing could have offended someone.

Again, my appology.

sojobow

[Dale Seago]

And on top of that you have the gaul to imply that chosi dori did not exist before bujinkan? It is called feinting and drawing in boxing. The science behind it is interesting and factual. I suppose bujinkan invented that as well. Chosi dori is terminology for something that has existed since the beginning of man.

You seem to have somehow missed this:


What we call choshi dori is not unique to the Bujinkan, as the thread makes clear. I first saw it used, and had it explained to me, by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aiki bugei (who did not have a name for it) around 16 years ago. That opened my eyes to be able to see some of what Hatsumi sensei was doing with it within some of his movement. And of course it's also found in Russian Systema.

The term choshi dori, however, is a ripoff from the Bujinkan just like other systems using the term "shidoshi" for an instructor.

It appears that you also missed my explanations, illustrations/examples, and scientific references in the RMA thread I cited in my first post on this thread. In case anyone else also missed it the first time and is equally ignorant of what I'm talking about, it's at http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212

[Dale Seago]

The 3 to 6 seconds it takes for the Amygdala to make this determination. . .

In threat (fight-or-flight) situations, the amygdala's function is to make you respond faster than you can cognitively process what's going on -- it's nothing like 3 to 6 seconds. It's why a good boxer in the ring, for example, can exploit an opening and zap a punch in there before he is even consciously/cognitively aware that an opening is appearing. The amygdala's operation is pre-cognitive (no, I'm not talking about some sort of ESP!) and it literally overrides the cognitive cortical processes as a survival mechanism. Choshi dori takes that hard-wired survival function and uses it against you.


Wish I could say more, but I can't.

I do believe that. :p

From an earlier post:


Don't know much about Bujinkan (and don't really care). Only thing is that if we look at what is stated on the Bujinkan test for 8th and 9th kyu (or is it 1st and 2nd - I forgot, it's been a while), you'll see what I was trying to say about how (in some ways) they use the words Choshi and Dori.

The only "official test" for any Bujinkan rank is the one for 5th dan, the level at which one becomes certified as an instructor. Anything else you see is going to be some individual dojo's program requirements, not something for the Bujinkan as a whole. As is stated on the FAQ page on my website, (http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks)


Hatsumi sensei has for many years staunchly resisted pleas from Bujinkan members to establish specific measurable criteria for ranks, explaining that such an approach tends to "kill" a real martial art because people tend to focus on what they need to pass a rank test rather than on the essential principles which will allow them to respond freely and appropriately in actual life protection. He has instead encouraged instructors to establish their own standards for their own training groups.

[BoneBreaker]

You seem to have somehow missed this:



It appears that you also missed my explanations, illustrations/examples, and scientific references in the RMA thread I cited in my first post on this thread. In case anyone else also missed it the first time and is equally ignorant of what I'm talking about, it's at http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212

Ignorant? wow you are arrogant and prideful. I read the thread and watched the video. Interesting stuff to say the least. The video was amusing. While I agree it shows the basic idea of the science, you could however watch the first 5 rounds of Corrales Vs Freitas and see what "Chosi dori" really looks like at full speed and for real, not 1/10 speed in a demo such as your chosi_bit2.mpg. Freitas is a master of feint and draw, even though he lost due to conditioning it is a great example of the science in action. I do not feel your video is a good example in regards to how it was extremely slooooow. For teaching reference slow motion might be beneficial but a demonstration of the science, I believe , requires full commitment. The systema videos I found are equally very slow http://www.systemauk.com/video/mr1.mpg. I found myself laughing to be honest. You can find much better examples of the science behind it in soccer, and basketball, boxing, and alot more sports becuase it is done in real time by professionals who know what they are doing through years of practice and dedication. You just have to know what to look for, it is not as hidden to a semi-educated eye as one might be led to believe by all the ninjurs running around talking about it like it's ancient ninjur magic. You only discovered what people have known for a very long time before you came along.

I still do not understand why we are arguing over terminology to be honest, or why you are mad because you think someone in DRN is ripping off bujinkan terminology if in fact that is where it originates to begin with. Nice resume' on your website BTW.

[BoneBreaker]

A feint would be pretty low level. Choshi Dori, as Dale has taught, means seizing the rythm. I take that to mean a number of things from experience. One, setting the timing and rythm of the encounter by futzing up everything the opponent is trying to do.

Low level? Do you even know what you are talking about? Feint and draw is chosi dori on a very scientific level in boxing. Much more in-depth and done at full speed, not slow as a slug as in the video demos I have seen.


The Bujinkan obviously didn't invent CD. However, I don't think anyone else has used the term except the Bujinkan until just recently.

So what? we are talking about the same thing, arguing who used the term first is moot. You are talking about martial arts pirates etc. over a term, not the science which is definatley not originated in bujunkan. Get over it already. I used the term, no one in DRN with the exception of sojobow, who admittidely by his post knows very little of the science, just what he is fed by his instructors to downplay how effective "Chosi Dori" can be.


As far as how he teaches it, I seem to remember a 6 hour day that was devoted to nothing BUT the principles of CD.

And how did he teach it to you? what did you do to practice? framing your face? etc.? please get a bit more in-depth if you can.


It may behoove you to know to whom you are actually talking down to next time.

What ,am I to respect his resume'? His reputation? Him as a man? I do not know him, He uses terms like duxling and ignorance in reference to me, Talks down to me from the very first post, even though he knows nothing about me, my training or who I am. He did not show respect any more that I did in any reference. I am not a DRN practitioner and I never have been, Nor have I ever studied ninjitsu in any form. However I do have a P.H.D. in Duxology. So as far as behooving who I am talking to, respect is earned not given, especially on martial arts forums such as this.


Oh yeah, it's not a rank thing. Newbies are exposed to it almost from day one. I would say that sojobow is taking a cop out, since his experience with it was more than likely a day long seminar where Dale mentioned it. :)

In DRN i do know it IS a rank thing, you do not know something until it is taught to you. They are very secretive. Sojobow is just a victim of Ninjur magic tricks played on him by the senior leadership at the USC club. It's just mind games. Josh maybe you should learn more about DRN before you start blaming Sojobow for "copping out" . It something beyond his control or his insatiable thirst for knowledge

[BoneBreaker]

Understand first that I study the martial science of Ninjitsu. So allow me to discuss my personal experience with Choshi Dori. This discussion has nothing to do with any Ryu. What goes on behind closed doors, stays.

Understood.


With, or against, an experienced, well trained Ninjitsu practioner, Choshi Dori would not be effective as the art trains us to have seen the truth BEFORE it happens.

Setting an expectation tempts the opponent to anticipate your action. That in itself is a jedi mind trick. If you shoot in for a single leg and I sprawl does that mean I cannot or am not good at grappling? IF I fall willingly into a guard position am I not a good sprawler? How would you know ahead of time? it is a Duxism and it is not realistic, unfortuantely it is taught as a mysterious reason you get beat on by the higher belt ranks. You cannot see the future, ninjur mind tricks or fortune telling is not a science. People telegraph their intentions, that is not exclusive to DRN, nor does that make DRN practitioners psychic.


As stated before, a Ninjitsuist bypasses the Amygdala and it's resultant chemical and electrical stimuli. We spend considerable time developing the hypothalamus. Beginners will be effected by CD (Choshi Dori)because they have not developed their Hypothalamus. Their Amygdala will kick in, cause other glands to develope such things as adrinolin/edrin - (sp.l) and, at the same time, have to determind fight or flight.

This is done in alot of arts through simplicity and repetition. Training the body to create uncomitted action by repetition so the body, when it does react without thinking, it does not revert to lunging, over extending or falling down (laff) as a response to chosi dori. Speed is the biggest factor , not necessarily the skill of your opponent. Also alot of strike techniques, AKA snapping strikes vs. thrusting are much better suited to nullify the effect of chosi dori on the body, Linear motion in general is a very common thing that chosi dori is well suited. Also I believe fight or flight is a determining factor priort to conflict and the commitment thereto. You can choose to run if you are not doing well in the conflict, but that is another principle, gameness of a fighter.



(warhammer once said that flight will only result in us to die tired).

he must not realize the benefit of choosing to fight another day, under different circumstances if necessary. Nothing should be ruled out until the situation happens and you hopefully have enough telegraphed intentions by the attacker to determine your level of commitment before a conflict ever occurs.


To a well-trained Ninjitsuist, what the opponent does - matters not. It does take from 3 to 5 seconds for a Ninjitsuist to determind his opponent's martial ability (somebody told me this).

How about underestimate or over estimate? Ninja's are men/women, men/women make mistakes in judgement even when they are highly trained for a myriad of reasons. Your assessment of the situation is not always correct, especially when you think it will be.


Regrettable, but you and I will have to wait until drsenei decides to post his information on triangulation according to his website. It is worth waiting for. I wouldn't supercede his wish.

Regrettable indeed. I appreciate your honesty and your " call it as you see it" attitude. As well as willingness to share what you have learned even at the risk of being scoffed at by "OTHERS" *salute*


We may know what it is but not by the name as you have described. Most of us concentrate in how to fight and spend little time studying the science and developing our minds and spirits.

I know none of the anti people read that statement or took it to heart if they did. I do believe Chosi Dori or the science behind it is and invaluable tool if you really want to kick Arse.


Wish I could say more, but I can't.

your text is apprecaited, as well as your effort. *salute*

[sojobow]

In threat (fight-or-flight) situations, the amygdala's function is to make you respond faster than you can cognitively process what's going on -- it's nothing like 3 to 6 seconds. It's why a good boxer in the ring, for example, can exploit an opening and zap a punch in there before he is even consciously/cognitively aware that an opening is appearing. The amygdala's operation is pre-cognitive (no, I'm not talking about some sort of ESP!) and it literally overrides the cognitive cortical processes as a survival mechanism. Choshi dori takes that hard-wired survival function and uses it against you.[/QUOTE=Dale Seago]
Dale (forgive me for not using your correct martial arts title. I will be glad to if you would specify it)

Please don't take this as some sort of intellectual sparring between you and I as I have no doubt you would be the winner. Here is my understanding and brief rationale: The Amygdala may be called a part of the "general defense response contral network." It (the Amydala) is also involved with the mediation of our chemical nervous system. But, it works through the hypothalamus which (the hypothalamus) works through the Thalamus. It is the Thalamus that is largely responsible for cognition.

I somewhat pre-empted Bonebreaker's points by suggesting a defense against someone utilizing CD. My rationale is that, since the connection and process is instilled within the Hypothalamus, any decision involved after recognition of the hand technique would be completed at the Thalamus curcuitry level thus never reaching the Amygdala and the subsequent defense scenarios then developed by the Amygdala and then sent back to the Hypothalamus for its determinations.

Put another way, if someone intends to use Choshi Dori on me, it would not work as the hypothalamus would not allow a signal be sent to the Amygdala initiating a defensive response and no decision involving fight or flight as the decision of fight and the proper response had already been made at the Thalamus level.

Please feel free to correct me or make any suggestions. As stated, this subject is very interesting and important.

[quote]I do believe that. :p I also wouldn't doubt you on this one.

From an earlier post
The only "official test" for any Bujinkan rank is the one for 5th dan, the level at which one becomes certified as an instructor. Anything else you see is going to be some individual dojo's program requirements, not something for the Bujinkan as a whole. As is stated on the FAQ page on my website, (http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks)
I did, in fact, get the information from a European Bujinkan Dogo's website. Thanks for not getting offended. I ment of harm only to show that the two words are sometime use exclusive of one-another. Bad way of say it too.

thanx again.

[Dale Seago]

He uses terms like duxling and ignorance in reference to me, Talks down to me from the very first post. . .

1) I did not use the term "duxling" as any sort of reference to you: It was in reference to the DRN students who attended my USC seminar.

2) The term I did use in reference to you was "ignorant", in the sense of "lacking knowledge" of what I had said here and the material I had posted on the RMA thread, because the wording of your post made it appear that you were responding without having read it. I had just said,


What we call choshi dori is not unique to the Bujinkan, as the thread makes clear. I first saw it used, and had it explained to me, by the Soke of Yanagi ryu aiki bugei (who did not have a name for it) around 16 years ago. That opened my eyes to be able to see some of what Hatsumi sensei was doing with it within some of his movement. And of course it's also found in Russian Systema.

The term choshi dori, however, is a ripoff from the Bujinkan just like other systems using the term "shidoshi" for an instructor.

and you responded with,


And on top of that you have the gaul to imply that chosi dori did not exist before bujinkan? It is called feinting and drawing in boxing. The science behind it is interesting and factual. I suppose bujinkan invented that as well. Chosi dori is terminology for something that has existed since the beginning of man.

which looked to me as though you had not actually read what I'd written and were, thus, ignorant of what I had said. I was not implying in any way that you were, or are, "ignorant" as a more general condition.

3) Up to this point I have not "talked down" to you at all. If you're talking about the post where I said,


I couldn't care less who ripped it off, just as I neither know nor care who first appropriated the term "shidoshi" from the Bujinkan.

that was a simple statement of literal fact: I don't care. This thread opened with a post from Sojobow using the term and I hadn't seen it used outside the Bujinkan prior to this time; suddenly this DRN guy is using the term and speaking as if he's trying to convince us he knows something about it. I'd never connected it to anything you might have posted previously, as I was (and so far remain) ignorant of your prior posting history here.

You also mentioned,


I do not feel your video is a good example in regards to how it was extremely slooooow. For teaching reference slow motion might be beneficial but a demonstration of the science, I believe, requires full commitment.

It was something available online, so I used it to get my point across. As I stated in the RMA forum post where the clip is linked, that was from a half-day Bujinkan seminar -- the same one Josh mentioned earlier. I was teaching. If you want to know what it's like being on the receiving end when it's done at speed, Josh could tell you.

[BoneBreaker]

1) I did not use the term "duxling" as any sort of reference to you: It was in reference to the DRN students who attended my USC seminar.

2) The term I did use in reference to you was "ignorant", in the sense of "lacking knowledge" of what I had said here and the material I had posted on the RMA thread, because the wording of your post made it appear that you were responding without having read it. I had just said,



and you responded with,



which looked to me as though you had not actually read what I'd written and were, thus, ignorant of what I had said. I was not implying in any way that you were, or are, "ignorant" as a more general condition.

3) Up to this point I have not "talked down" to you at all. If you're talking about the post where I said,



that was a simple statement of literal fact: I don't care. This thread opened with a post from Sojobow using the term and I hadn't seen it used outside the Bujinkan prior to this time; suddenly this DRN guy is using the term and speaking as if he's trying to convince us he knows something about it. I'd never connected it to anything you might have posted previously, as I was (and so far remain) ignorant of your prior posting history here.

You also mentioned,



It was something available online, so I used it to get my point across. As I stated in the RMA forum post where the clip is linked, that was from a half-day Bujinkan seminar -- the same one Josh mentioned earlier. I was teaching. If you want to know what it's like being on the receiving end when it's done at speed, Josh could tell you.

Well Met Dale , I do believe this to be a misunderstanding as I did feel it was directed towards me in a condecending manner and I took it personal, overreacted as it were. I offer an apology.

Maybe we can begin again and get past this into some good discussion of principles . I would love to hear josh's take on the chosi dori you teach from a full speed standpoint as well as more of your technical approach to teaching chosi dori. Thanks for clearing alot up for me already.

[Dale Seago]

Well met indeed, and apology accepted (*virtual handshake*).

Got to go teach class, perhaps we can get back into this tomorrow.

[sojobow]

Understood.

I know none of the anti people read that statement or took it to heart if they did. I do believe Chosi Dori or the science behind it is and invaluable tool if you really want to kick Arse.

your text is apprecaited, as well as your effort. *salute*My intent is to re-read this post a few additional times.

There are things you know, that you should not.

ps. You got it right about the fight. Running and choshia doria got him killed.
Again, I can't thank you enough for bringing up this subject. Bring us another. I watch

[BoneBreaker]

I do not know Josh's level of skill or speed. I do not know if he telegraphs his motion. I don't know how well his footwork lends to his, distance, timing or rhythm. With that being said I am not sure how much his opinion can weigh in on your point. Though I would still like to hear it.

What I see from your video clip :

pros-
Good Misdirection (choshi dori)
angled in Footwork to create a large margin for error
non-linear motion
lin sil die dar or "interception" of an attacking weapon.
elbow check after second punch misses
Distance, rhythm and timing controlled well with foot maneuvers

cons-
telegraphed foot maneuvers
your head is bobbing up and down
bad posture
not much economy of motion
no marriage of gravity when the back knuckle makes contact
Large circular motion
very slow speed
overextension

your opponent-
Off balance from the beginning
no harmony of motion
did not effectively close distance
did not choose correct weapon for the distance
terrible footwork
telegraphed intent
very slow attack
way overextended from the beginning of the second punch and even the first punch was not done from the proper distance in relation to his footwork.
his overextension prior to choshi dori lends itself to a greater effect of the principle applied.

I would really like to experience this first hand . Are there any events such as a seminar scheduled in the near future that I could attend? Is your school open to guests?

[BoneBreaker]

My intent is to re-read this post a few additional times.

There are things you know, that you should not.

ps. You got it right about the fight. Running and choshia doria got him killed.
Again, I can't thank you enough for bringing up this subject. Bring us another. I watch

Agreed, many people learn things they cannot fully understand or impliment at their skill level and could be dangerous or create false confidence. It was not meant as a dig. *salute*

P.S. Someone got killed in a fight from running and trying choshia Doria? ooh please explain, was it the warhammer reference? is that why he has gone missing as it were?

[sojobow]

P.S. Someone got killed in a fight from running and trying choshia Doria? ooh please explain, was it the warhammer reference? is that why he has gone missing as it were?

As you most likely know very well, backing up or retreating in comflict is not an effective technique (not absolute, but in most instances). In Musashi's book (Five Rings), he mentions the concept regarding knowing collapse. When faced with an opponent that retreats, do not allow him to redirect or regain his composure. In the Corrales Vs Freitas fight, Freitas chose to use a mixture of evasion, and to some extent, chosin dori against Corrales. Corrales' forward motion constantly kept Freitas in this retreating motion (collapse). Freitas had no effective counter to Corrales while retreating but, when allowed to move out and attack, he was then effective. It was a matter of time before Corrales would disregard the chosen dori and strike the actual mass. Plus, having Freitas in motion, adds to the power in the Corrales punch. A fighter's dream is to have a target in motion at the same time his own punch is thrown. (See also Joe Frazier's left hook to Muhammad Ali, 10th round, Madison Square Garden)

Another example was the last Roy Jones, Jr. fight. If you get a chance to review the tape, you will notice that Roy lost because he threw a left hook while retreating while the opponent threw his left hook while moving forward. Supprising as Roy is a master of triangulation as his opponents usually direct their punches where Roy was versus where he is. Musashi's concept of retreating expressed again.

So, if you look closer at Dale Seago's post on Choshi Dori, you will note that quite a few of the responders to that thread had experiences of being hit in the face training or trying CD. If I am good enough to see the real body motion thereby actually knowing where the effective mass has moved to, I will usually hit you right in the face. This is usually due to you moving your head too early (or too late) or you move your hand back towards your own face before moving your body or moving your body straight back. Any one of these mistakes will allow my cognitive process (one or more of my five senses) to see the truth and the thalamus to then reestablish control of my external environment to my favor. "Flight", will get you killed when "Fight" is the correct way.

I didn't mean "killed" in actual terms, but "killed" in the sense of someone being knocked to the floor etc.

Why do I get the feeling that you and Dale already know this?

Oh yes, before I go. I agree with your assessment and critique of the Choshi Dori video to a great extent. Thought I was the only one to see what you saw. But I'm not that good so I kept my opinion to myself.

[sojobow]

that was a simple statement of literal fact: I don't care. This thread opened with a post from Sojobow using the term and I hadn't seen it used outside the Bujinkan prior to this time; suddenly this DRN guy is using the term and speaking as if he's trying to convince us he knows something about it. I'd never connected it to anything you might have posted previously, as I was (and so far remain) ignorant of your prior posting history here.
Thanks for the compliment. *cyber-salute*

[althaur]

I will get back to you on what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this. Trying to re-do some reports my computer decided to eat. :mad: I will also throw out an apology for being slightly grumpy on my post. I get that way. My wife usually just smacks me. Anyhoo, maybe this can turn into some good discussions. Be back later.

Josh

[Dale Seago]

If I am good enough to see the real body motion thereby actually knowing where the effective mass has moved to, I will usually hit you right in the face. This is usually due to you moving your head too early (or too late) or you move your hand back towards your own face before moving your body or moving your body straight back. Any one of these mistakes will allow my cognitive process (one or more of my five senses) to see the truth and the thalamus to then reestablish control of my external environment to my favor. "Flight", will get you killed when "Fight" is the correct way.

By George, he's got it! (Yes, I will give credit where it's due :) )

One thing I pointed out in the seminar is that the "drawing" sort of choshi-dori is not at all difficult: It's so easy, in fact, that you can do it without trying or meaning to or knowing anything about it. You often see it with beginning martial artists who, seeing a partner's punch coming at them faster than they anticipated or were able to deal with it, instinctively flinch and try to jerk their heads out of the way -- only to have the punch continue to zero in like a heat-seeking missile, and often without either party understanding why it happened. Anomalous movement draws one's attention.

On another note, BoneBreaker made some excellent observations regarding the video clip, and I'll try to address those shortly.

[BoneBreaker]

As you most likely know very well, backing up or retreating in comflict is not an effective technique (not absolute, but in most instances).

Agreed, linear retreating gets you KTFO'd quite often :p


In the Corrales Vs Freitas fight, Freitas chose to use a mixture of evasion, and to some extent, chosin dori against Corrales. Corrales' forward motion constantly kept Freitas in this retreating motion (collapse). Freitas had no effective counter to Corrales while retreating but, when allowed to move out and attack, he was then effective.

Yes yes, I believe it is a good example of using angles and "lateral" movement while avoiding shots from Corrales onslaught. I think it was really incredible to watch. Angles or lateral movement in and of itself was not enough if you observe closely. He essentially nullified the Corrales jab and rocked him with good combinations that used unusual angles of attack. To his credit Corrales has a hard head he got drawn in many times only to get slammed. This allowed his game plan of body shots and constant pressure to take its toll in the later rounds.


It was a matter of time before Corrales would disregard the chosen dori and strike the actual mass. Plus, having Freitas in motion, adds to the power in the Corrales punch. A fighter's dream is to have a target in motion at the same time his own punch is thrown. (See also Joe Frazier's left hook to Muhammad Ali, 10th round, Madison Square Garden)

I chose this fight as an example for a few reasons, You have noted them all! Good show. I disagree with the term "disregard" in relation to corrales. I think the fatige slowed frietas to the point that he was not able to use the feint and draw effectively. Speed was the factor that allowed corrales to hit him. in the first 8 round corrales would punch and freitas was already gone, in the later rounds he did the same punches but freitas was simply not able to move his intended target fast enough to avoid the blow.


Another example was the last Roy Jones, Jr. fight. If you get a chance to review the tape, you will notice that Roy lost because he threw a left hook while retreating while the opponent threw his left hook while moving forward. Supprising as Roy is a master of triangulation as his opponents usually direct their punches where Roy was versus where he is. Musashi's concept of retreating expressed again.

*salute* good example Mr. Warren


So, if you look closer at Dale Seago's post on Choshi Dori, you will note that quite a few of the responders to that thread had experiences of being hit in the face training or trying CD. If I am good enough to see the real body motion thereby actually knowing where the effective mass has moved to, I will usually hit you right in the face. This is usually due to you moving your head too early (or too late) or you move your hand back towards your own face before moving your body or moving your body straight back. Any one of these mistakes will allow my cognitive process (one or more of my five senses) to see the truth and the thalamus to then reestablish control of my external environment to my favor. "Flight", will get you killed when "Fight" is the correct way.

Yes yes, I call this Body Lag, when there is no harmony of motion expressed by the body, certain parts of it "LAG" behind. Linear movement again is a culprit as well. You really came through well on this Mr. Warren, I commend your effort towards understanding and expressing that understanding in words.


Oh yes, before I go. I agree with your assessment and critique of the Choshi Dori video to a great extent. Thought I was the only one to see what you saw. But I'm not that good so I kept my opinion to myself.

It was just one small clip form an arsenal of examples Mr. Seago has provided. I also realize that an IDEAL situation would mean everything is perfect. I am not an idealist but My assessment was from an idealistic standpoint only intended to be moving towards that Perfected motion. I believe his depth of understanding goes much deeper than you can asses on one video. I too have much to learn and I hope by analyzing the motion on video against known principles of good motion, I can learn. Mr Seago can thusly respond and possibly raise the level of his technique and I can better critique my own motion and raise it to the next level thoughtfully and purposely through dilligent repetition of the correct motion. I look forward to his response and josh's response about the "full speed" stuff

Whew :bow:

[althaur]

Okay. Let's see if I can explain this well. First off, I would like to think that my timing, distance, and not telegraphing is fair. Of course, I could be wrong. :)

Let's start with how I attack Dale. I don't give him any breaks when I'm trying to hit him. I am moving in to take his head off. He can attest to the fact that I have taken some good licks for trying to counter whatever he is doing. Everything I do in class is like this. I am only interested in how this will be applicable on the battlefield.

That being said, when Dale uses choshi dori during these attacks it has a tendency to cause all sorts of problems on my end. First, you find your attack moving off the intended target. It could be minutely or very drastic depending on what Dale does. He is simply replacing my original target with a new one by using my own brains natural tendencies.

We are hunters. The way our senses and brain are set up on a basic level is for hunting. An animal that hunts needs to have good visual acuity and be able to pick up movement and things that don't fit in. When Dale, or anyone, does a CD properly(correct timing, speed) the brain immediately reaquires the new target. It may be to assess a danger or just a WTF moment.

As my weapon is being guided, proper movement on Dale's part usually puts him into a position where he can immediately attack me, whereas I have to move myself to line myself back up for attacking.

The CD can cause a lot of different things to happen depending on the intent behind it. It can overextend and imbalance a person, causing them to be thrown easily, or in extreme cases to fall over. It can also cause a jamming or short circuit effect.

All in all, it can be very unnerving if you are surprised by it. CD is not just limited to the hands either. I have experienced it with Dale while he used his legs, shoulder and even his eyes. It isn't something you can pick up immediately. It takes timing, flow and proper speed. Too fast, and it is ignored. To slow, same thing. Too early or too late, you still get hit. It all comes from learning these aspects, and learning how to move individual parts of your body independantly and at various speeds.

I hope this helps a bit. It's kind of a hard thing to really describe. You really need to feel it to truly understand. Eveyone have a great night. Take care and be safe.

Dale, see you in September.

[Dale Seago]

What I see from your video clip :

pros-
Good Misdirection (choshi dori)
angled in Footwork to create a large margin for error
non-linear motion
lin sil die dar or "interception" of an attacking weapon.
elbow check after second punch misses
Distance, rhythm and timing controlled well with foot maneuvers

cons-
telegraphed foot maneuvers
your head is bobbing up and down
bad posture
not much economy of motion
no marriage of gravity when the back knuckle makes contact
Large circular motion
very slow speed
overextension

your opponent-
Off balance from the beginning
no harmony of motion
did not effectively close distance
did not choose correct weapon for the distance
terrible footwork
telegraphed intent
very slow attack
way overextended from the beginning of the second punch and even the first punch was not done from the proper distance in relation to his footwork.
his overextension prior to choshi dori lends itself to a greater effect of the principle applied.

Okay, here we go.

Your observations are for the most part very accurate, but they do need some surrounding context.

First, some comments on kamae ("attitudinal postures"). One of the functions of kamae is to channel an opponent’s possible attacks in ways which will increase your likelihood of being able to deal with them. We do put emphasis on learning good kamae: the Bujinkan arts are about a 50-50 mix of empty-hand and weapons applications, and proper kamae becomes REALLY important when you’re dealing with weapons. You have to understand good kamae and their potential weak points (and all kamae have them) in order not to inadvertently leave any openings.

Since a good kamae is hard for an opponent to get past, we also place huge emphasis on showing kamae that may superficially look pretty good but are just not quite “there” somehow. Josh, who trained with me here for years before getting transferred to FT Meade, can confirm that sometimes this can be so subtle as to be literally invisible. The opponent is standing there unable to attack, then suddenly just KNOWS he can get in and goes for it. When asked, after picking himself up off the floor, why he chose that instant to attack, he may not be able to explain it. What I’m doing in the clip is, obviously, not at that level of sophistication and wasn’t intended to be, as there were people of all skill levels from around 5th-degree black belt to near-beginners training there (nor was kamae the subject of the seminar).

Kamae can do a lot to determine the general “avenues of approach” an attack may take, but we also place a lot of emphasis on ways of more specifically influencing the timing and target of an opponent’s attack: The more things we can “stack” in our favor, the easier it will be to deal with. Just at the point where he’s ready to attack, I’m moving, but not too fast or with any obviously aggressive purpose – Josh has heard me refer to this over the years as “non-specific movement”. And I do it right at the point where he’s in range to be able to nail me by taking a single step: By beginning to increase the distance, but not TOO quickly, he tends to want to get me before I can get away. I’m not raising the hands too high, and that plus the head movement “suggests” what his target should be (and helps him “reacquire” his target for a second shot).

This combination of factors, combined with continuing movement, ensures that he’s pretty well discombobulated before he even starts, and he never is able to gain the initiative. He also does not even realize how overextended and out of position (hence less efficient and slower) he already is as he tries for the second punch. Neither of us is trying to go especially fast here – remember, this is an instructional session for people who train in the Bujinkan, not a demonstration for “tourists” (I don’t do those anyway); my own speed (or lack of same), however, is determined completely by his own movement. You can’t impose the timing of YOUR movements on the situation, it has to “fit in” with what HE does.

And as far as “large movement” and “lack of economy of motion” go, again remember that the people I’m teaching have to be able to see what I’m doing. When I’m doing this sort of thing at my own level (and I did demonstrate this during the seminar), it’s all so “small” that neither the opponent nor external observers can tell that I did anything “unusual” at all. (Nor does he get anything remotely like a chance at a second attack.)

A lot of this also has to do with using “ordinary” movements but changing the order and/or rate at which body parts move. As I mentioned on the RMA thread,


But to take it out of the realm of "martial parlor tricks", it needs to be integrated with your entire body movement. For example, in using forward tai-sabaki (body-shifting evasion) to step forward past a midsection knife thrust, if you just step with your body moving as a unit it's perceived as an aggressive threat and he'll reorient in mid-movement and gut you. A better way to do it is (say you're stepping with the left) to move forward in a way which makes him think you're retreating so that he "stays on track" and overextends. Say you're stepping with the left, for instance, as he stabs: Don't begin by moving the left side of your body forward; rather, pull the right side of your body back and let THAT movement be the first thing he sees. That feeds naturally into the continuing movement of your left side in a step past the thrust: It's all a single movement, but you time what parts of your body begin moving first so that you actually close the distance while his amygdala is telling him that you're "running away" and making him "chase" you.

This can all be done with your own use of weapons as well, as in swordsmanship. In the choshi-dori seminar that video clip is from, for example, someone asked me how it could be done with a naginata (halberd) against a swordsman. I stood in a "neutral" hira ichimonji no kamae, like shizen fully facing the swordsman with the naginata across my body at right angles to him. As he cut, I moved so that the blade of my naginata took his attention and "drew" his cut forward as I stepped offline, while the butt of the naginata slipped between his wrists. I continued to move, tangling and crossing his wrists so his own sword-edge was against his neck as I unbalanced him forward, slamming him face-down onto his own sword edge while the naginata, continuing to move, sliced across the back of his neck. It was all a single movement. (It also was totally spontaneous, NOT some pre-thought-out technique: There is no way I could have "planned" for all that to happen and made it work.)

The naginata-vs.-sword example is also a good example of kyojitsu tenkan ho, and of integrating this stuff with your taijutsu so that what is actually occurring is hidden from both the attacker and from anyone watching. To observers "outside" the action, it looked like from a totally "open" position I evaded the sword attack, deftly "threaded the needle" with the butt-end of the naginata, locked the attacker up and slammed him down on his own sword-edge and cut through the back of his neck.

Well, sorry, but I'm not fast enough to do that. It was done by "creating illusions" for the attacker, manipulating his perceptions and buggering his brain through his optic nerve so that my own movement not only positioned me correctly but made him position himself correctly for me to do what I ended up doing.

I hope this is somewhat helpful, at least. I do have a couple of questions regarding “cons” you pointed out, specifically:

- no marriage of gravity when the back knuckle makes contact
- overextension

I think I may know what you’re getting at with the first, but I’d appreciate a bit more of an explanation from you regarding both.

[BoneBreaker]

I hope this is somewhat helpful, at least. I do have a couple of questions regarding “cons” you pointed out, specifically:

- no marriage of gravity when the back knuckle makes contact
- overextension

I think I may know what you’re getting at with the first, but I’d appreciate a bit more of an explanation from you regarding both.

Marriage of gravity- is a term i picked up years ago, it may not be in context to the original meaning. It essentially deals with harmony of all your body parts coming together , being married essentially to each other in motion. The gravity reference refers to the drop of the backnuckle or solidity of the execution combined with your harmony or marriage of motion. In essence your body was still in motion before, during and after the backnuckle thus defeating your own base and vastly decreasing the power to be achieved. I have discussed this before with people and some think I mean not being fluid. It just means timing everything together so when you make contact the maximum effect is achieved. I hope this clears that up question.

overextension-I was referring again to the backnuckle, at the moment your backnuckle strikes, your feet are essentially close together and in motion, when you lean forward and strike with the backnuckle, you look to be off balance slightly and leaning to reach your target, your arm extends out almost straight. It just looks a bit unorthodox in it's application or like your overextending to reach the target. Alot of style use FULL extension when punching, I call that over extension as the arm slightly bent at point of contact achieves more power than a fully extended arm when thrusting considering all other factors to be equal.

I was also unsure if that was a Thrusting backnuckle or snapping backnuckle. It is difficult to tell from the angle presented. It looks to be thrusting and that is what I based my observation on. If it is snapping you can ignore the overxtension comment if you like as it would not apply.

[Dale Seago]

Okay, Fernando, I think I see what you're getting at.


Marriage of gravity- is a term i picked up years ago, it may not be in context to the original meaning. It essentially deals with harmony of all your body parts coming together , being married essentially to each other in motion. The gravity reference refers to the drop of the backnuckle or solidity of the execution combined with your harmony or marriage of motion. In essence your body was still in motion before, during and after the backnuckle thus defeating your own base and vastly decreasing the power to be achieved. I have discussed this before with people and some think I mean not being fluid. It just means timing everything together so when you make contact the maximum effect is achieved. I hope this clears that up question.

overextension-I was referring again to the backnuckle, at the moment your backnuckle strikes, your feet are essentially close together and in motion, when you lean forward and strike with the backnuckle, you look to be off balance slightly and leaning to reach your target, your arm extends out almost straight. It just looks a bit unorthodox in it's application or like your overextending to reach the target. Alot of style use FULL extension when punching, I call that over extension as the arm slightly bent at point of contact achieves more power than a fully extended arm when thrusting considering all other factors to be equal.

Again, what you're seeing is mostly accurate: "In essence your body was still in motion before, during and after the backnuckle. . ." But your conclusion: ". . .thus defeating your own base and vastly decreasing the power to be achieved" is something I'd disagree with. This is probably due to some differences in approach to power generation, different concepts of how to do it. We have somewhat different approaches among the various ryuha of the Bujinkan as well. . .and actually there is -- now that I'm analyzing it after the fact -- a bit of a "stylistic blend" of principles in what I did with the strike (which I know you said you couldn't easily see -- it was a forefist punch). This is also consistent with the way Hatsumi sensei has been teaching since the start of 2003, deliberately blending everything and not being "ryu-specific".

Anyhow, in terms of the energy of the punch, there's mainly a combination of "centrifugal" and "gravitic" momentum involved. The centrifugal part comes from the way my body is turning on the spinal axis, which in the context of striking would be largely a Gyokko ryu influence. However, at the point where my punch begins my body and feet are in almost a "shizen" or "natural" position more characteristic of strike initiation in Shinden Fudo ryu; and if you'll notice, my right foot doesn't move again from that point although the rest of my body does. (This kind of relaxed "striking while moving", depending more on mass & momentum of the body in motion and less on specific structural alignment, is a common feature of Shinden Fudo ryu as well.)

The "gravitic" element I mentioned refers to the way I'm dropping my body slightly as the strike is on its way. The way I'm doing it is more of a "tilting" of the body rather than "leaning" from the waist, as my spine remains in a straight line. This adds both power and stability and is a major feature in Koto ryu striking methods. (In addition to use of the hands and elbows this way, its kata also feature a lot of strikes with the head done this way, with the body "toppling" like a telephone pole with the spine remaining straight in order to, for example, split the opponent's sternum while simultaneously knocking him down.) An additional factor in keeping from overbalancing is that, if you'll notice, as I bend my right knee to sink my weight the knee never comes further forward than the tip of my toe.

The arm itself is very relaxed, with only enough muscular tension to hold it up at the beginning of the punch (again, power is coming from the mass & momentum of body movement, not from upper-body and arm strength). Again, in terms of "gravitic" influence, I let its own weight work for me. The arm never does reach full extension.

[BoneBreaker]

Again, what you're seeing is mostly accurate: "In essence your body was still in motion before, during and after the backnuckle. . ." But your conclusion: ". . .thus defeating your own base and vastly decreasing the power to be achieved" is something I'd disagree with. This is probably due to some differences in approach to power generation, different concepts of how to do it.

Yes we do have major differences in achieving power I believe from your stance and motion I have seen (only on that Vid). but for purposes of teaching, all of your points are all well taken, and I agree to some degree. You can't just go around beating the crap out of students and saying "See it works" . However I am a proponent of going all out 100% in practice as long as the skills of both individuals allow the some degree of safety for purposes of practice. It does not allow for eye gouges and maming etc as it is sparring but it gives you a good idea of where you are, and where you need to improve in a big way. I still am not 100% convinced even with the science behind it that chosi dori is effective in a real conflict as demonstrated. Hatsumi might be another story entirely but I would think that to be derived from many many years of trial and error experience. I would have to experience it first hand to make a better determination for myself and if what josh says is true, I would probably not even know that is why I got smoked :bow: I would like to thank you for dispelling the myths of ninjutsu's hypnotic hands and putting it onto a scientific perspective that is more easily understood for all. Thank you for your time and typing. *salute*

[sojobow]

By George, he's got it! (Yes, I will give credit where it's due :) )

One thing I pointed out in the seminar is that the "drawing" sort of choshi-dori is not at all difficult: It's so easy, in fact, that you can do it without trying or meaning to or knowing anything about it..
Thanks again.

Definately agree with you on your statement regarding us performing Choshi Dori without knowing anything about it. I see a lot of it simply as a student mimicing his sensei in stances, strikes and combinations thereof. Took me a year to find out.

One question, if you don't mind. Recently watched the Olympic Fencing matches. Very interesting. Left-handed woman won gold. She most likely wouldn't have used her left hand in Kenjitsu or Kendo. But, of more interest is that little use of Choshi (or Choshen) Dori was evident. I also see little use of this technique in other sword fighting techniques. Am I missing something? If true, why?

[Dale Seago]

One question, if you don't mind. Recently watched the Olympic Fencing matches. Very interesting. Left-handed woman won gold. She most likely wouldn't have used her left hand in Kenjitsu or Kendo. But, of more interest is that little use of Choshi (or Choshen) Dori was evident. I also see little use of this technique in other sword fighting techniques. Am I missing something? If true, why?

You're probably not seeing it because it's not there, and it's not there because the practitioners don't know it exists, much less how to use it.

BTW, someone who had seen the RMA thread wrote to me about it asking for more information, and we've been corresponding a bit. You might find this useful, from today's exchange:



Thanks very much for the reply...Can this method be seen on any of the
Hatsumi tapes that are aavailable? I will pick up a copy of the Systema
material as you suggested. Would really like to attend seminar that
focused on this...please let me know if you offer. Thank you and I
appreciate your help.

There's been a wee bit of it at Tai Kai training events in the last
couple of years – not being taught per se, but with Hatsumi doing it either
unarmed or with a weapon (sword for instance) and then saying, “Try to
catch this feeling”. Some of those may or may not have made it
onto the event videos. He doesn’t teach this kind of thing openly for
public consumption, and neither do I.

The earliest thing I know of on tape where I’ve “caught” him using
choshi-dori are a point in the 1980s video set “The Ninja Art of
Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi”, recently re-published by Buyu Books and
available at http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10812 . It’s
just a single movement in the midst of a free-form multiple-attacker
situation, but the camera just happens to catch it well. The other is in
his training video from Quest on Koto ryu Koppojutsu: Again, it’s just a
single moment – He’s been grabbed and the attacker is going to punch him,
and he shifts over and punches the attacker in the bicep before throwing
him. . .but he uses his hand to keep the attacker’s punch “on course” and
facilitate his evasion.

In terms of recent stuff, his new video “Kakushi Buki Shurikenjutsu”
(http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10904 ) contains a lot of material from the Japan Tai Kai in April of this year (you can see me in there a fair bit too), and in that footage you’ll see him seeming to
“catch” someone’s fist as they punch at him (happens a number of times). .
.but the way he’s doing it is pure choshi dori, causing the attacking fist
to go to his hand. He never said anything about it, he was just doing it,
and it doesn’t “look like” anything in particular because of the way it’s
blended with his overall body movement. This was a taijutsu variant of
something we’d been doing with swords just before that.

In an earlier example, the annual Daikomyosai training this past December,
there actually is one clear instance of this. He was calling instructors up
and basically saying, “Just do anything you feel like and we’ll play with
the idea”. When I was called up, I had my wife Teri try to punch me and I
just “drew” her punch to my hand as I moved in past it and took her down. I
haven’t watched the video yet, but a couple of the Irish guys have told me
that this part is on it – think it’s “chapter 22” on the DVD version; you
can get the video at http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10838 .

Hope that helps!!

[sojobow]

You're probably not seeing it because it's not there, and it's not there because the practitioners don't know it exists, much less how to use it.

Think you're right on this one. Also, it seems that different Ryu or styles may or may not use the technique in their sword fighting teachings. The Chinese may use it quite a bit (the red feathers on their weapons etc). Your style seems to teach and use it in your sword techniques. But Fencing doesn't as the object is to thrust/lung cut using linear motions versus those schools utilizing circular motions. Just noticed this during the Olympics - direct forward attack - one move - one cut - match over. (Still trying to figure out how you "tap out" in a sword fight)

I also think some are discribing what they think of as being Choshi Dori when, in fact, all I see is that they are blocking and redirecting a strike or kick. Overkill on the use of a term.

[Kreth]

Keep in mind that you're watching a sport. Modern fencing bears about as much resemblance to actual swordplay as point sparring does to full contact sparring. The reason you see choshi dori employed by boxers, is that they're actually fighting, not playing tag. You would see much the same thing if you were to observe a modern practitioner of traditional European sword methods.

Jeff

[sojobow]

The reason you see choshi dori employed by boxers, is that they're actually fighting, not playing tag. You would see much the same thing if you were to observe a modern practitioner of traditional European sword methods.Jeff
Thanx Kreth. I recently purchased a video by Master Robert Owens, 7th Dan. Introduction to Japanese Sword. I had no idea the speed, force, balance and strength necessary to make effective cuts. Recommend to me a videol. Thanx again.

[sojobow]

Dale,

I do understand your proposition that choshi dori should be a blended element to one's general base. However, and this could be because of how it is taught in some ryu, the initial placing of the hand should be a deliberate act and must be performed before the uke has initiated his attack. Said another way, the use of the technique must be intentional. The Tory initiates the uke's attack by offering the uke the target choice (you presented a term for this). Not sure choshi dori will work effectively if the uke has already began his strike hoping that Uke will somehow then change his mind in the middle of attack upon the cortex detecting a new motion developing during his own strike.

After re-reading your post on the use of choshi dori with weapons, I think I now understand your statements a little better. First, I couldn't quite figure out how we can use the technique when weapons are involved. Picked up a bokken, went outside, tried it and found that it actually works better when weapons are involved. The opponent just can't keep his eyes off the weapon and, because of his concentration and the results of his amagdala's actual over reactions, the technique works even better. But again, I believe that the offering of the 'cheese' should be intentional and should initiate the signals sent to the uke's amagdala. The observance of the weapon - and especially a sword - really does initiate the fight or flight thought process. My only remaining question is - when a weapon is brought into the theatre, is the teachnique actually choshi dori or some other technique as the body mass, and its movement, now becomes secondary to the overall technique?

Good job teach!