Does anyone profit by doing forms?

[Erik]

I'm just wondering what any of you have personally learned from or how you have profited by doing forms.

I'm .5" from quitting Kuk Sool because of the forms. It feels like a waste of time doing things for kids when I could be boxing, wrestling, and doing BJJ with/against real opponents instead of air. And jeeze, it's boring.

Do any of you gain anything from forms that cannot be learned from partner practice and/or conditioning?

[Jim Perkins]

It depend s on the form but a good form will challenge you both physically and mentally.
Don’t you do more than just form work you should be doing sparing, learning application of moves and practical self defense as well?
:bow:

[KoshoBob]

There is lots of stuff in forms. When students are having problems with a technique, I remind them it is from there form. Look for the similarities.

[redqueen290]

Forms are there so that you can practice your techniques by yourself. If you do them correctly it is like a fight without having to find a partner. Also finding the bunkai and the hidden movements of forms tends to help me with my self defense because when you memorize a form and the techniques in it then you are being taught new combinations and blocks. I actually really enjoy katas. Once i learn one and i have all the movements down then i start to think of it as a dance so i can get the flow of the movements, but maybe thats just a girl thing.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well this thread should get some responses! The following is only my opinion and feel free to disagree with me, and many do.

For me, no forms. Been there, done that, have since moved on. I will not say I will never do forms again but at this time I do not plan to.

Now that said, I think the problem with forms is too many moves, too little bunkai, and emphasis on the "look" and not the application. Break down the forms into each little three or four step combo and then maybe it has some value. Performing them to look pretty, win trophies, or just because it's always been done that way, does not improve your fighting ability.

I believe you are better off drilling the small combos over and over, with bag work, sparring, and conditioning, than doing 35 or more techniques in a pattern.

But that is why Baskins and Robbins has 31 flavors, not everyone likes the same thing.

[Erik]

It depend s on the form but a good form will challenge you both physically and mentally.
Don’t you do more than just form work you should be doing sparing, learning application of moves and practical self defense as well?
:bow:
Challenges me to stay awake. I'm serious. I yawn more during forms than I do before bed. I really like my trainer (he was a good pal for years before I joined his club) so I try to try hard and be polite to him. He's a great friend.

But jeeze, man, forms are so boring to me. I'm just not into this.

And insofar as applications, I guess there's stuff to learn, but why not just learn it on a partner, practice it for real.

No sparring, yet, and the practical self defense and application moves are semi-interesting, but I just don't buy that they'll work, not after grappling and kickboxing type sports.

Cliff just added his 2 cents while I was typing this and I must agree.

I actually feel that the forms are making me less fight-effective. Give me a boxing/wrestling conditioning workout any time instead of this rediculous dance. I guess I'm more interested in fitness and effectiveness.

And what's bunkai?

[black-gi]

I personally like to do forms. I do them back to back and that alone is a good work out ( most of my forms pretty short and somewhat basic) they increase flexability and leg strengh as well as focus. I also heard stories of a old school full contact karate fighter who would do kata more then anything to train for fights (Ray McCallum). I also like to do them at tournaments and get the spoils of doing good. But I agree with Cliff, the trend seems to be the look as opposed to purpose.



Jason Bryant

[Cliff Hargrave]

And what's bunkai?


The best answer to that is interpretation. The "why" you are doing those certain moves. In the Okinawan karate I trained in, there were different bunkai depending on your level of training. Basic bunkai was "this is a block" or "this is a punch". As you advanced then that block could be a strike, or a joint lock, or whatever you made it to be. Sounds great in theory :)

[Cliff Hargrave]

I also heard stories of a old school full contact karate fighter who would do kata more then anything to train for fights (Ray McCallum).

I have a picture with him somewhere at my parent's house.

[tkdcanada]

I enjoy forms more as time goes on. It's a mental challenge to remember and in my own view (although it likely has absolutely nothing to do with why they are done) they have an artistic quality that I love. Everyone moves their body in a certain way and looks slightly different on everyone and it's also something that is very easy to get lost in (the flow and rhythm of it all) - it's relaxing and I like that. :)

[SteyrAUG]

I'm just wondering what any of you have personally learned from or how you have profited by doing forms.

I'm .5" from quitting Kuk Sool because of the forms. It feels like a waste of time doing things for kids when I could be boxing, wrestling, and doing BJJ with/against real opponents instead of air. And jeeze, it's boring.

Do any of you gain anything from forms that cannot be learned from partner practice and/or conditioning?



Yes, real ones.

They are absolutely useless in modern martial arts and many traditional styles do not teach original, orthodox kata either so they are far less useful.

[SteyrAUG]

The best answer to that is interpretation. The "why" you are doing those certain moves. In the Okinawan karate I trained in, there were different bunkai depending on your level of training. Basic bunkai was "this is a block" or "this is a punch". As you advanced then that block could be a strike, or a joint lock, or whatever you made it to be. Sounds great in theory :)


The short answer is this.

There was a time when martial arts training was conducted in secret and techniques of various ryu closely guarded.

They took the core techniques of a system and combined them into a 'form' for purposes of easier transmission and to secure these techniques for posterity.

They taught the 'bunkai' (applications) so people would know what the less obvious moves represented.

Problems with kata come from when some dink in history either learned them wrong, felt he could improve them or some other situation where the form or the application was changed and the kata could be forever altered and the original understanding lost.

[ACRAWFORD]

Reference and exerp taken from

Sword and Brush
Tuttle Publishing
author David Lowry

In the traditional Japanese farmhouse, light and ventilation were provided typically by removing the clay plaster from a section of a wall’s interior and exterior, leaving a hole and the exposed bamboo lattice work lathing. This kind of rustic window, a renji-mado (lattice window), was incorporated into the architecture of the tea ceremony, and many tea huts feature this type of window. The light from such a window is beautifully filigreed by the grid of latticework, leaving a play of shadow. It is a kind of illumination defined as much by the pattern of shadows as it is by the presence of light.

Patterns have emerged in the bugei. The consummation of countless experiences in battle, these patterns were brought to their final form at a price of blood and carnage and intense effort. They were sequences of combat: attacks and counters; the exploitation of weaknesses in stance, weaponry, and armor; the manipulation of every facet, mental and physical, that increased the odds of destroying and enemy at close-quarter conflict. These sequences of fighting engagement are the kata of the bugei. For the bugeisha, they are indispensable. They bring coherence to his study. Kata re the framework around which his training is organized.

The catechisms of the kata are not unique to the bugei. Every Japanese art employs preset patterns given to initiates to emulate and master. The practitioner of tea performs a kata of tea preparation with precisely the same gestures and ritual as ere used tow centuries ago. He has learned it exactly from his teacher, who learned it in his time the same way. So it is with the kata of the bugei. Devised by warriors and refined by their successors, martial kata gradually assumed a fixed form. The modern bugeisha who assimilates and exercises them is thus tapping into a deep source of knowledge, a pedagogy that has proven itself in the firestorm of battle.

Those lacking a firsthand acquaintance with them are unlikely to take such a respectful view of the classical combative kata. They will interpret them to be a sterile, mindlessly repetitive imitation with little relevance to real fighting. For those not involved intimately with them, the appearance of kata is one of a highly choreographed ballet, with rigidly set patterns devoid of any creativity or spontaneity.

Only from the inside perspective of the bugeisha is the true nature of the kata revealed. Involved with, he realizes that kata provide challenges in technical application, in timing and distancing, that will require a lifetime to fully explore. What appears to the outsider to be a slavish apprenticeship to robotic form is the insider a method of instruction that allows him to achieve his unique potential. The practice of kata brings the bugeisha to encounters that open for him opportunities for creativity and individual self expression undreamt of by those who have not followed the way. Within the structure of form, boundless freedom awaits. Through imitation, self consciousness is subjugated. The true self is uncovered. It is a self that marks each kata with its own, inimitable qualities.

[corsarius]

Ah yes... the old forms debate.

Personally I believe that forms can be a useful training tool, but should definitely not make up the majority of training.

On their own, forms are almost worthless for developing fighting ability. I have known many people who could execute forms with impressive speed and precision, yet were amongst the worst actual fighters I've ever seen.

Forms are an index of basic techniques, and a basis for application. They allow you to train on your own, but provide a guide for how a particular style applies techniques/movements and links them together. They're also good for physical conditioning and as a kind of mental training (moving meditation?!)

That being said, they should be the means, not the end. A properly taught form should have been broken down into numerous sub-sections and taught as individual techniques/sequences with a live training partner. Forms are a guide, but don't really show you how the technique works in the real world. In 5 years of learning a particular style of kung fu I only learned 2 complete forms (there were only 5 in the system in total). Why? Because a great deal of time was spent actually practicing elements of hte form against real people - again and again and again until we were all thoroughly bored of it (it always alarms me when you ask someone what a particular move from a form is all about, and they're only vaguely aware of its purpose).

Are styles which use solo forms better or worse than other styles? Neither. As with everything, it depends on the student and (perhaps more importantly) on the instructor.

[Cliff Hargrave]

There was a time when martial arts training was conducted in secret



Why were they secret?

[Erik]

My hunch, Cliff, is that between the high stakes of primative NHB and the poor medicine of the time and all the uppityness of professional fighting instructors trying to get well paying contracts to train so-and-so's troops, people did not want to expose any weakness nor did they want other clans to know what they knew.

Imagine the Gracie kids on the block with their great ability to fight yet trying to keep it in the family, then a few good friends, then the techniques get out there and either 1) anyone else can become a threat as the monopoly is broken or 2) they get discredited, somehow.

That's my hunch.

[TonyU]

I am of the kata faith., but like religion I won't try to shove it down your throat. I think kata is exceptional "to me". It's not for everyone. It's actually fun and challenging to me.
If you don't like it, don't do it. Go find something suitable to your taste. That's why there is such a diverse choice of styles and systems.
Whatever path you choose just train hard and have fun.

[n2shotokai]

Well I was ready to go off when I saw Cliff's first post, but as I continued to read it became very clear to me. Practicing kata to look pretty is IMO a waste of time. Kata without proper bunkai IMO is a waste of time. Of course the exception is if you practice sport karate then you are right on track. The problem is so many people have screwed up the bunkai that most people have no clue. I love it when I ask a sport based person about bunkai in a kata and the response is "I don't know". Great, so what do we have other than flailing arms and legs.

Kata definitely has it's place done correctly. Every now and then part of a kata gets stuck in my head and I start playing with it until becomes part of my favorite self-defense arsenal.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well I was ready to go off when I saw Cliff's first post, but as I continued to read it became very clear to me.

:)

If everyone agreed it would be a very boring message board.

[Andrew Green]

Some competitions have cash prizes, so someone profits :D

Forms aren't useless, but neither is dancing... the two got a lot in common.

[RA Miller]

The original question was whether or not anyone got something from forms.

Given the caveat that it is very unlikely that we practice the same forms in the same way I got some very valuable things from forms.

I learned explosive movement from absolute stillness.

I learned how to consciously trigger tachypsychia, that state where you perceive everything in slow motion.

I learned how to read intent, to the extent that I could reliably tell a partner (for kata) or criminal (for work) who was willing to kill from one who wasn't.

During the last push for my Mokuroku, there were other, less tangible things that have served me well.

Rory

[Jerusalem]

Things that I've gotten from forms?

Hrmm, I'd like to think some of the discipline I've learned over the years is because of them. Balance, Power, Focus...things that might also be learned through straight-out training w/o forms, but for me, I learned them from forms. Attention to details and technique.

And personally, I've found one other thing that comes from forms: I can tell how good a fighter someone is from watching thier forms. Sloppy forms = sloppy fighters. Unfocused forms = unfocused fighters. and someone that can't be bothered to learn them = a fighter w/o a lot of Spirit.

PS: Of course these are rules of thumb. I know forms aren't for everyone and I've seen people that aren't very good at forms but are good fighters. I myself am really good at forms (yes, it's a little egotistic...but they are what I like to do. though I'm not even Master level at them yet.), but I am not however a very good point-fighter. But then again, I'm not extremely interested in being a good "slap-boxxer".

[David Craik]

Kata represent no less than a catalog of all the techniques in a system. Everyone has 'favorite' techniques, and techniques which they have trouble with. If a system is taught with free sparring alone, then the student will tend to fall back on the techniques he likes, and not attempt the ones he doesn't. Thus his favorites get better and the rest get worse because they are not practiced.

This would not be too bad if his favored techniques were appropriate to any situation, but unfortunately this is often not the case. He now has holes in his defense and has not properly learned the whole art. In addition, one would have to spar a score or more different opponents to be exposed to each technique just once or twice. So it has helped make those strikes and kicks which seemed awkward at first a little more natural.

It's all in the mindset, I think. If one goes into it considering it to be nothing more than a robotic dance to memorize, then that's all it will be. If one does not consider the bunkai, then it is a pretty useless exercise. If he allows his mind to wander or does not visualize an opponent then he will become bored.

I think this is where the two-person kata (kumitachi) of koryu kenjutsu systems shine. You pretty much have to pay attention to what you're doing, and you do not have to visualize..the bunkai is right before your eyes.

Most koryu systems were transmitted exclusively through kata and I think most would agree that many of the warriors they produced were pretty darn good at what they did...some even falling under the category of 'legendary'. So it seems to be a viable method of training to me, though I can see the value of sparring too. Each complements the other.

Just my 2¢...

[Cliff Hargrave]

Copied and edited from another forum that has a similar thread. Not my words but I agree with what is written:

**********************************

From a combat and/or self-defense point of view, the practice of kata, forms or patterns in TMAs (Traditional Martial Arts) prompts two questions:

(1) Do kata contain valuable information?

(2) Does practicing kata directly improve your combative/self-defense skills?



A karate perspective:

Having studied shotokan karate for 14 years, I must say that, as practiced generally, the techniques in the kata have little combative value. Karate kata applications (bunkai/oyo) that I have seen taught by traditional karate masters have almost exclusively been counters to highly stylised karate-style attacks.

I will try and lay out my thinking as follows:

1. The original applications are unknown

IF (and it is a big if) there truly were applications in mind when the katas were initally constructed they are now unknown to the general community. The honest masters out there will, and do, admit this. There is a great industry (books/videos) of people trying to deconstruct the kata - all coming up with different answers.

2. So, if the originals are unknown, why bother with kata techniques at all?

Applications get assigned to kata techniques in one of two ways. Either someone takes the kata move directly and tries to work out what it might be for, or else someone sees a move demonstrated somewhere and says "hey, that's like the move from XXXX". But why bring the kata into the picture at all? Why try to fit square pegs in round holes? Why limit yourself to attacks and counters that only look like a move from a kata. Katas are unnecessarily limiting.

3. The applications, as generally taught, are nonsense

Most of the applications that I see taught are against highly stylised karate-style attacks, and clearly only work in demonstration mode. For example, the first move in bassai-dai involves a standing with your feet and hands together, then lunging forward with a 'reinfored' inside-block. I see this demonstrated against incoming stepping punches and reverse punches. Other kata applications only work when an opponent follows, say, a right kick with right lunge punch. As Vince Morris says, "but how do you know he was going to do that?".

4. The applications are anyway considered unimportant

The largest international shotokan bodies, the SKI and JKA, both do not require demonstrations of applications for 1st degree black belt. The SKI require demonstration for 4th or 5th dan and above - after you have been training for at least 15-20 years. Surely requiring 20 years of study to usefully use a kata application shows it to be the single most inefficient training methodology imaginable? Modern traditional karate (yes, an oxymoron) places 99% of its emphasis on how good the form of the kata is, not the function. Some organisations take this to ludicrous extremes - a 10 degree variation in foot or hand angle is doing it wrong. Have these people ever been in (or even seen) a real fight? My 99% figure comes from the time spent doing kata vs doing applications, and the emphasis in grading.

5. Practicing with an invisible partner is of little value

Anything and everything works on a cooperative partner. Thus if an application 'works' against a prearranged attack it gives no information on its combative value. The 'Aliveness' concept holds devastating implications for the TMA 'prearranged attack' training philosophy. If only practicing with a cooperative partner with prearranged attacks has dubious value, then practicing with none at all has much less. "But even boxers do shadow boxing" I hear you say. My response would be that you have not boxed and do not understand the purpose of shadow boxing.

Point #5 is the most damaging of all. Even IF the techniques were genuinely of value, simply practicing them as a kata will be very unlikely to help you to apply them in a real situation. I have had experience in or seen the 'new applications' developed by people like Patrick McCarthy, Vince Morris etc and while these are an awful lot better, points #1, #2 and #5 still apply.

In summary:

The original applications, IF they existed and IF they were any good, have been lost. What is taught in their place is unrealistic rubbish that only ever works for prearranged attacks. In any case, the applications are practiced far far less than the solo performance of kata. Finally, there is a great weight of modern evidence that seriously undermines the training philosophy underpinning kata.

If you knew you were going to be attacked in the street in 2 weeks time would you practice kata between now and then?

If you had a ring fight (full contact or semi contact) coming up in 2 weeks would you practice kata between now and then?

If you were designing a combative/self-defense system, would you have kata in it?

Kata is somewhat useful in developing attributes which are useful in fighting (balance, coordination, stamina etc) but I submit that there is no evidence to suggest that kata is the optimum program for developing these attributes and I suspect that it is an inefficient method of doing so. In reality, kata prepares you best for doing more kata.

From a combative/self-defense viewpoint, kata has little benefit and enormous opportunity cost (the cost of not doing something more beneficial).

Don't tell me kata/forms/patterns are great for self defense/unarmed combat - tell me why and how.
**************************************

[Erik]

Good one, Cliff.

It seems that katas are for kids, to teach them basic moves, get them to concentrate on something, maybe get the stage fright out of them, and so on. Not things that any of us adults adults with fighting experience need (though certainly can enjoy!). It seems that these lessons are good to shove down kids' throats (like our mulitplication tables) because they may need it at that phase in life.

I guess that making kids learn all these moves and focus on details is a good treatment for ADHD. Cheaper than the medical alternatives, I guess.

:t2:

[SteyrAUG]

Why were they secret?


In China to guard the knowledge.

In Okinawa because the practice was illegal.

[Cliff Hargrave]

In China to guard the knowledge.

In Okinawa because the practice was illegal.

Have you read any of the recent works that expose the Okinawan legends of secret peasant fighting arts as myths? No evidence of peasant karateka fighting Samurai, and most all Okinawan arts can be traced to upper class folks? The current works show it as simply stories made up to promote the arts.

[David Craik]

Guess there is a bit of a difference in what people think the purpose of kata is. I almost get the impression that whoever wrote the piece quoted by Cliff considers kata or parts of kata are designed to be a rigid, codified response to a specific attack. One cannot say "If he attacks in such-and-such a way, I'm going to launch into Heian Nidan or the last half of Nijushiho". Rather than being limiting, if one knows several or all of his kata well, he can form countless variations and combinations of attack and defense all grounded in the principles of his system.


(1) Do kata contain valuable information?
If your kata don't 'contain valuable information', then surely neither does your ryu, because the kata and the techniques contained therein are the essence of the style. The kata contain all the techniques of the ryu, so if the techniques are unusable then so must be the system, as they are the framework of that system.


(2) Does practicing kata directly improve your combative/self-defense skills?
Yes, because they are a ordered way of practicing every technique in the system over time, as well as good practice in transitioning from one technique to another.


I think Dr. Friday sums it up best in his essay 'Kabala in Motion: Kata and Pattern Practice in the Traditional Bugei':

"Kata, then, are a key component of traditional Japanese martial art. They are kabala in motion, dynamic compendiums of the essential principles of the various schools. Pattern practice is the core of transmission in the traditional ryuha, the fundamental means for teaching and learning that body of knowledge that constitutes the school. Mastery of a ryuha's secrets is a supra-rational process wherein one is first molded by, then freed from, then freed by the framework of the ryuha's kata." - Karl Friday, Kashima-Shinryu Menkyo Kaiden

Rather than being 'for kids', kata practice has produced some of the greatest martial artists in history. To each their own though, it's been many years since my karate and TKD days so YMMV.

[SteyrAUG]

A karate perspective:

Having studied shotokan karate for 14 years, I must say that, as practiced generally, the techniques in the kata have little combative value. Karate kata applications (bunkai/oyo) that I have seen taught by traditional karate masters have almost exclusively been counters to highly stylised karate-style attacks.

That is the guys first problem. Funakoshi (and later Nakayama) changed all the kata and created several new ones.




I will try and lay out my thinking as follows:

1. The original applications are unknown

IF (and it is a big if) there truly were applications in mind when the katas were initally constructed they are now unknown to the general community. The honest masters out there will, and do, admit this. There is a great industry (books/videos) of people trying to deconstruct the kata - all coming up with different answers.

Not really true. It takes research but one can easily find the real kata. If I can find, learn and practice the original Wansu form - anyone can.



2. So, if the originals are unknown, why bother with kata techniques at all?

Applications get assigned to kata techniques in one of two ways. Either someone takes the kata move directly and tries to work out what it might be for, or else someone sees a move demonstrated somewhere and says "hey, that's like the move from XXXX". But why bring the kata into the picture at all? Why try to fit square pegs in round holes? Why limit yourself to attacks and counters that only look like a move from a kata. Katas are unnecessarily limiting.

#2 is flase, because #1 is false.



3. The applications, as generally taught, are nonsense

Most of the applications that I see taught are against highly stylised karate-style attacks, and clearly only work in demonstration mode. For example, the first move in bassai-dai involves a standing with your feet and hands together, then lunging forward with a 'reinfored' inside-block. I see this demonstrated against incoming stepping punches and reverse punches. Other kata applications only work when an opponent follows, say, a right kick with right lunge punch. As Vince Morris says, "but how do you know he was going to do that?".

Dead on. Trying to divine workable bunkai on modified kata is like hammering a round peg into the square hole. It was my study of Shotokan kata that told me "this can't be right" and led me to research the roots. When I learned Naihanchi (which became Tekki Shodan) it all made perfect sense.



4. The applications are anyway considered unimportant

The largest international shotokan bodies, the SKI and JKA, both do not require demonstrations of applications for 1st degree black belt. The SKI require demonstration for 4th or 5th dan and above - after you have been training for at least 15-20 years. Surely requiring 20 years of study to usefully use a kata application shows it to be the single most inefficient training methodology imaginable? Modern traditional karate (yes, an oxymoron) places 99% of its emphasis on how good the form of the kata is, not the function. Some organisations take this to ludicrous extremes - a 10 degree variation in foot or hand angle is doing it wrong. Have these people ever been in (or even seen) a real fight? My 99% figure comes from the time spent doing kata vs doing applications, and the emphasis in grading.

Not true, even in SHotokan the bunkai is considered important. In the original kata application is the KEY.



5. Practicing with an invisible partner is of little value

Anything and everything works on a cooperative partner. Thus if an application 'works' against a prearranged attack it gives no information on its combative value. The 'Aliveness' concept holds devastating implications for the TMA 'prearranged attack' training philosophy. If only practicing with a cooperative partner with prearranged attacks has dubious value, then practicing with none at all has much less. "But even boxers do shadow boxing" I hear you say. My response would be that you have not boxed and do not understand the purpose of shadow boxing.

Again this guy really learned nothing.

1. Kata doen correctly IS practiced with a partner and in broken down segments.

2. The point of kata was to preserve the most important techniques in a transmittable form. That is what it was all about.



Point #5 is the most damaging of all. Even IF the techniques were genuinely of value, simply practicing them as a kata will be very unlikely to help you to apply them in a real situation. I have had experience in or seen the 'new applications' developed by people like Patrick McCarthy, Vince Morris etc and while these are an awful lot better, points #1, #2 and #5 still apply.

Guys like McCarth do not practice "new" applications, they have researched the orginal bunkai.

And kata (alone) is practiced to perfect and refine the techniques. Applications are perfected in sparring. This guys final damning point is absurd.

It is like me suggesting sparrring is of little value because it promoted sloppy technique out of pragmatism and inhibits development. On some level it is true but taken as a whole it is ridiculous.



In summary:

The original applications, IF they existed and IF they were any good, have been lost.

And here he has invalidated his entire argument. They are certainly known and taught. Maybe just not at the local TKD/JKD/KM/BJJ schools. He should have explored the roots of his style and with just a little bit of research would have found his own answers.

The fact that he didn't proves how little he knows of the subject.



What is taught in their place is unrealistic rubbish that only ever works for prearranged attacks. In any case, the applications are practiced far far less than the solo performance of kata. Finally, there is a great weight of modern evidence that seriously undermines the training philosophy underpinning kata.

If you knew you were going to be attacked in the street in 2 weeks time would you practice kata between now and then?

If you had a ring fight (full contact or semi contact) coming up in 2 weeks would you practice kata between now and then?

If you were designing a combative/self-defense system, would you have kata in it?

Kata is somewhat useful in developing attributes which are useful in fighting (balance, coordination, stamina etc) but I submit that there is no evidence to suggest that kata is the optimum program for developing these attributes and I suspect that it is an inefficient method of doing so. In reality, kata prepares you best for doing more kata.

From a combative/self-defense viewpoint, kata has little benefit and enormous opportunity cost (the cost of not doing something more beneficial).

Don't tell me kata/forms/patterns are great for self defense/unarmed combat - tell me why and how.
**************************************


I can sum this up.

To suggest kata is useless is to suggest individual techniques are useless.

After all kata (the original ones) are simply a collection of the most important ones. If you take your 8 favorite techniques and arrange them in a logical pattern for purposes of practicing them as a "form" or "routine" you have a kata.

That is why they were developed that is why they were handed down.

Since they were made up of the most important techniques the applications were not always obvious and sometimes deliberately hidden. Without the bunkai the kata would be useless.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Since they were made up of the most important techniques the applications were not always obvious and sometimes deliberately hidden.

I dont agree with the "hidden" stuff. You can't find two "masters" of Okinawan karate, whose styles do the same kata, to agree on the applications. You can't even get them to perform the kata the same. Each style has their own versions of it. I believe it's just more nonsense feeding the myths of karate. Your body is only going to move a certain number of ways and I can take a series of movements and make them whatever I want. I have seen the same reinforced block (common kata move) interpreted as a block, strike, throw, and even a kotogaeshi. Are these different hidden meanings or just something someone invented?

Karate as we know it is less than 100 years old and the super secret, ancient, deadly kata are recent creations. Very few date back over 100 years. The Pinan , Naihanchi, and Passai sets are all school kid forms.



Without the bunkai the kata would be useless.

I agree but even with bunkai are they that much better? A kata may consist of 10 sets of moves, each set having 3 or four moves contained in it. They are then strung together in the kata. Wouldn't a better training method be to take those subsets and practice them against a partner and then against a resisting partner?

My point is kata are simply a larger part of the "myth" of oriental martial arts, and a relatively new creation at that. They contain whatever you want them to contain.

This addresses a larger picture of how you train for real encounters. Real fights involve speed, strength, and gross motor skills. Not fine motor skills involving secret patterns of some mythical farmer. When the heart rate goes up, the fine motor skills disappear. Put any of these kata guys in a real fight and I promise they will be launching hard punches and kicks and not some cat stance combo from Chinto.

I am convinced that even if it was true, it is a waste of time and you would be better prepared with conditioning, bag drills, two person - full speed drills, and sparring than with kata.
***************************

[SteyrAUG]

I dont agree with the "hidden" stuff. You can't find two "masters" of Okinawan karate, whose styles do the same kata, to agree on the applications.

Absolutely NOT true.



You can't even get them to perform the kata the same. Each style has their own versions of it. I believe it's just more nonsense feeding the myths of karate. Your body is only going to move a certain number of ways and I can take a series of movements and make them whatever I want. I have seen the same reinforced block (common kata move) interpreted as a block, strike, throw, and even a kotogaeshi. Are these different hidden meanings or just something someone invented?

I don't even know where to begin.

For most kata there are many variations and successive ryu did create the changes but if you pick a kata like Wansu there is only ONE correct version.



Karate as we know it is less than 100 years old and the super secret, ancient, deadly kata are recent creations. Very few date back over 100 years. The Pinan , Naihanchi, and Passai sets are all school kid forms.

Help me out Cliff and do your research. Wansu goes back several hundred years and we know this for a fact. Pinan (Heian) is recent and created by Itosu but Patsai (Bassai) goes all the way back to Matsumura.



I agree but even with bunkai are they that much better? A kata may consist of 10 sets of moves, each set having 3 or four moves contained in it. They are then strung together in the kata. Wouldn't a better training method be to take those subsets and practice them against a partner and then against a resisting partner?

YES. But that is if you are not training alone. Kata is for solo training and transmission of teachings. In groups you do "one steps" from the kata with a partner.



My point is kata are simply a larger part of the "myth" of oriental martial arts, and a relatively new creation at that. They contain whatever you want them to contain.

Kata is as old as karate itself. Like all other aspects it can be misunderstood and misrepresented.



This addresses a larger picture of how you train for real encounters. Real fights involve speed, strength, and gross motor skills. Not fine motor skills involving secret patterns of some mythical farmer. When the heart rate goes up, the fine motor skills disappear. Put any of these kata guys in a real fight and I promise they will be launching hard punches and kicks and not some cat stance combo from Chinto.

Kata is technique. Are you suggesting technique should not be practiced? And who is suggesting that ONLY kata should be practiced?



I am convinced that even if it was true, it is a waste of time and you would be better prepared with conditioning, bag drills, two person - full speed drills, and sparring than with kata.
***************************

That is because I don't believe you understand exactly what kata is.

[SteyrAUG]

Cliff I'm gonna try and help you.

You are a teacher.

take 10 key techniques that you consider critical to your system. Arrange them in a logical pattern. You now have a kata.

You have a way to transmit knowledge of those key moves and a form for a student to practice in solo training.

That is all kata is.

When Karate (Todi) went from China (Fukien Province) to Okinawa it was transmitted via kata. They taught the forms because that was the best transmission of the style given the conditions of training.

They taught you the forms and the meanings of the movements.

With that knowledge you could learn the larger system by focusing on individual techniques within the kata and developing those skills.

All the training you consider critical is the easy part.

Sparring, makiwara (their punching bag) and other physical training were simply the easy part of developing the learning skills to the level where they are useful in fighting.

But kata is how one learned the style int he first place.

And only an idiot really thinks it is one long technique where people are expected to wait their turn and attack you in a proscribed manner where you can do your kata on them. I know you didn't say that but I've met no shortage of idiots who suggest that very thing.

And the situation was again further complicated by those who changed or modified the kata at points in history either through lack of understanding or belief that they could improve them.

It is kinda like playing telephone. The transmission can get screwed up and seeking original genuine kata and bunkai requires some research and effort.

I hope this helps.

And finally, despite my original example to help you understand, I don't think a need for modern kata exists at all. Martial arts are taught differently these days and modern kata are not needed. The only reason they are created is for the ego stroke of modern masters who hope that in 2275 someone will still practice the Ashida Kim Katana Kata.

Classical kata could also be done away with by simply breaking them down into their component techniques and teaching them along the lines of modern instruction methods. This is not done mostly for the sake of tradition and preserving a cultural art.

I think the latter consideration is why early "modern" kata (circa 1920) complete with their inherent flaws are still taught as well.

[Cliff Hargrave]

That is because I don't believe you understand exactly what kata is.

Apparently not :)

I was raised with the same anti-Shotokan bais you have too (plus the anti-Korean arts bias). I was taught that what I was learning was the "real" Okinawan version, with proper bunkai, blah blah blah.

But I found as I grew older that there was never any agreement on what that bunkai was, or even the proper way the kata were performed. I found instructors form the same organizations doing things different. Different branches of Shorin Ryu doing the forms different, and everyone had their own reasons why. After all my experience I just don't grasp it or appreciate it.

I guess you could say I am kind of bitter towards alot of what is traditional martial arts. Too much fiction, myths, stories, legends, and just plain garbage. Way too many "martial artists" that can't fight!

I guess I am just the devil's advocate around here.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Cliff I'm gonna try and help you.

You are a teacher.

take 10 key techniques that you consider critical to your system. Arrange them in a logical pattern. You now have a kata.

You have a way to transmit knowledge of those key moves and a form for a student to practice in solo training.

That is all kata is.



I actually agree with you (some what). :) I just don't agree with the secret deadly importance some people place on them. I fully understand the use of kata as a way to transmit the system to people and as a way to practice solo. I just think that there are better ways to do that now.

[SteyrAUG]

I actually agree with you (some what). :) I just don't agree with the secret deadly importance some people place on them. I fully understand the use of kata as a way to transmit the system to people and as a way to practice solo. I just think that there are better ways to do that now.


I think much of that is a "Do" mentaility.


Right mentality, wrong forms.

It is kinda like a unshakable faith in mathematics while professing that 2+2=5.

And like I said, for modern purposes even original correct kata are not necessary. They "could" be broken down into component parts and taught that way.

Obviously for cultural/traditional reasons they are not.

But the other reason is that in tact "orthodox" kata being taught insures that they knowledge of the form (and by extention the bunkai) is correct and the guy isn't just teaching another flawed variation.

[SteyrAUG]

Apparently not :)

I was raised with the same anti-Shotokan bais you have too (plus the anti-Korean arts bias). I was taught that what I was learning was the "real" Okinawan version, with proper bunkai, blah blah blah.

But I found as I grew older that there was never any agreement on what that bunkai was, or even the proper way the kata were performed. I found instructors form the same organizations doing things different. Different branches of Shorin Ryu doing the forms different, and everyone had their own reasons why. After all my experience I just don't grasp it or appreciate it.

I guess you could say I am kind of bitter towards alot of what is traditional martial arts. Too much fiction, myths, stories, legends, and just plain garbage. Way too many "martial artists" that can't fight!

I guess I am just the devil's advocate around here.



A LOT of my time was wasted and I somewhat resent it as well.

I did a similar shotokan to shorin ryu progression, exploring Mastubayashi, Kobayshi, etc. looking for the real roots. Wasn't until I found systems like Hohan Soken style and most surpisingly Tomari Te styles that I first found original kata.

Matsubayashi Ryu does teach many variations of the same kata categorized by variation of master. But they do have original kata like Matsumura's Patsai so one should not completely discount them either.

Most knowledgeable teachers will be quite candid about which kata they teach, which are considered orthodox, and which are succcessive variations. That is if they know in the first place.

[Jerusalem]

idea I had that's very close to what's already been stated.

Don't almost all MA's teach combinations to use during fights? Wouldn't these codified, pre-arranged list of techniques be a form? Just not the way we normally define them.

[Erik]

It is kinda like a unshakable faith in mathematics while professing that 2+2=5.

This can be true. But the question is, on that lost tropical island, who really is the father?

Thanks all you guys for the answers to this. Still seems that there's stuff to learn from katas but they're probably only good for warm up or cool down and self-practice when you don't have a bag hanging in your apartment. Or for kids.

I'll stick to mat and ring work for now. Maybe when I'm too old and frail I'll switch back to kuk sool or something and do forms again.

Nahhh, who am I kidding? When I'm old and frail, I'll be doing yoga, biking, swimming, and company golf.

:D

[PooterMan]

Ok, I'm a new guy here, and nowhere near a black belt yet but I'll chime in regarding the original question..

Yes, I do find usefullness in forms. It's a way of drilling stances into my head time after time after time (after time), until the proper front stance/fighting stance/horseback stance etc will eventually become a habit. the proper motion on blocks, centering of punches on targets etc.
Yes, it's a 'scripted' activity but it seems to me to give me benefit. As I progress(currently 4th gup in Tang Soo Do) I expect I may not have the same feeling but currently I do feel they benefit me.

I do see a lot of the arguments against it though, and the discussion did bring up a lot of good points about it.

[SteyrAUG]

This can be true. But the question is, on that lost tropical island, who really is the father?


:D

Despite popular misconception kata origins are pretty well documented as well as the changes and when they occured.

While you can't always walk into the local Y and learn the correct Matsumura Passai, if you look for it it can be found.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Richard,

Do you go in your back yard with one of your guns, walk around in a pattern and pretend to shoot imaginary targets, or do you go to a range and punch paper and clang steel?

[Jerusalem]

Richard,

Do you go in your back yard with one of your guns, walk around in a pattern and pretend to shoot imaginary targets, or do you go to a range and punch paper and clang steel?

I know of plenty of ppl that practice Draw and Dry-fire drills to get the motion down.

Not that it really relates to your post, but it does happen.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I know of plenty of ppl that practice Draw and Dry-fire drills to get the motion down.

Not that it really relates to your post, but it does happen.

I was just yanking his chain. I am very familiar with dry firing.

[Forbiddenryu]

u havent learned anything have u? im 15 and hav bin doing karate for 8 years and bin doin alot of forms. i got in a four on one fight last year and the techniques that i learned in the forms were so instilled in me that it was like a sixth sense. i came out a winner that fight...

[Cliff Hargrave]

You talking to me?

First let me introduce you to some BudoSeek Rules. You can read all of them here:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2641


The most important is rule#1:

1. Your Name. The name should be your real "full" name, however you may use a "handle" (alias) if you desire. The "handle" should be in keeping with good taste. You are REQUIRED however to use your full real name either as your handle, or within your SIGNATURE on EVERY POST.

The next most important for you would be #10:

10. Do not use Instant Messenger slang or shorthand to make your posts. Posts should be typed in clear and concise language, with the aim of using correct spelling and punctuation in order to best facilitate communication with your fellow members.

Also, how many different places are you going to post that you got into a fight with four people?

[SteyrAUG]

Richard,

Do you go in your back yard with one of your guns, walk around in a pattern and pretend to shoot imaginary targets, or do you go to a range and punch paper and clang steel?

No but we do lots of non firing drills to perfect entry skills etc. But I have a feeling that is not exactly what you were asking. (besides yanking the chain).

Practicing "hold overs" is the closest thing in marksmanship development to kata. Like kata this is training for when you can't get to the range to punch paper.

Basically you take a precision rifle with high magnification optics (at least a 10x).

MAKE SURE THE WEAPON IS EMPTY. I'd suggest using a snap cap as well.

Then focus on a small target. I'd recommend zooming through a window from inside the house rather than going prone on your driveway. I focus on a street sign 180m from my house.

Practice holding the cross hair on target and begin your squeeze.

The object is to keep the cross hairs on target and stable before, during and up to 5 seconds after the trigger break.

This way it becomes a natural ingrained skill to hold on target before, during and after the shot it out of the weapon. Too many people do not focus from the point of the trigger break and after and the weapon moves with the round still in the barrel.

I sometimes do 250 hold overs in a day. It is as valuable to precisions shooting skill maintenance as punching paper.

How's that for "gun kata"? ;)

[kohai]

with all due respect to everyone else, as someone said here before, "like religion...", i won't try and force kata down anyone's throat. however, my MA training started in a very traditional environment, and has had for a great majority been kata-based. i think cliff hit the nail on the head when he said too little bunkai. the fact the kata were purposely redesigned to hide or gloss over lethal techniques is often only given cursory attentiuon, and thus bunkai rarely seems to advance past a stage.... ultimately it's still "this is a block" - at best..."maybe yuou can do something else with it". many times people just don't know, but what i find sad is that they're not willing to try and find out! take the oft used explanation of corridor/boat fights for the tekki kata in shotokan!
with well taught bunkai, and encouragement to think for oneself instead of depend solely on what is spoonfed to by the teacher, i would think kata would function as extremely effective training tools

[SteyrAUG]

with all due respect to everyone else, as someone said here before, "like religion...", i won't try and force kata down anyone's throat. however, my MA training started in a very traditional environment, and has had for a great majority been kata-based. i think cliff hit the nail on the head when he said too little bunkai. the fact the kata were purposely redesigned to hide or gloss over lethal techniques is often only given cursory attentiuon, and thus bunkai rarely seems to advance past a stage.... ultimately it's still "this is a block" - at best..."maybe yuou can do something else with it". many times people just don't know, but what i find sad is that they're not willing to try and find out! take the oft used explanation of corridor/boat fights for the tekki kata in shotokan!
with well taught bunkai, and encouragement to think for oneself instead of depend solely on what is spoonfed to by the teacher, i would think kata would function as extremely effective training tools

I completely agree with your assesment of modified kata and improvised bunkai.

As for Tekki (which is Naihanchi) the "boat" explanation is absurd.

Tekki (Naihanchi) is similar to Sanchin (Sam Chien) in that neither are "fighting kata" but training kata.

Both were introductory kata (prior to the creation of Pinan (Heian)) that were for developing fundamental skills. Naihanchi was more than anything else a stance training kata that combined strong powerful stances with precarious transitions of balance. The blocking striking combinations are not "secret techniques" as much as awkward angles of attack and defense. Bascially if you can do the movements in Naihanchi with proper focus and power you can do virtually any block or strike with focus and power.

There is only one actual "fighting application" in all of Naihanchi that I am aware of and that is a somewhat obscured parry/overhand backfist combination.

Naihanchi and Sanchin were traditionally the first kata (and often the only thing) taught to new students in their respective places of origin. Once these kata were correctly executed the srudents has the basic foundation for learning additional basics.

[Keelhaulhim]

I'm just wondering what any of you have personally learned from or how you have profited by doing forms.

I'm .5" from quitting Kuk Sool because of the forms. It feels like a waste of time doing things for kids when I could be boxing, wrestling, and doing BJJ with/against real opponents instead of air. And jeeze, it's boring.

Do any of you gain anything from forms that cannot be learned from partner practice and/or conditioning?

There are tons of advantages to kata (forms) that I have observed.

First of all, I get jealous of the karate people because they can get a great workout by themselves practicing their kata (forms).

Me, as a Judo person, I need someone else to practice with, even to do a kata, I can't do kata by myself in Judo.

Next, Kata gives you a great sweaty workout when done properly; kata allows you to perfect your style; kata allows you to present a dignified demonstration of your art to the curious or the critic; kata improves muscle memory for each technique; kata passes on the knowledge of your style from one student to the next; kata gives you a good martial art workout - which means working on specific muscles unique to your style that you wouldn't get from jogging, weightlifting or other crosstraining methods. You can continue in your martial arts style doing and teaching kata when you're too old to compete and those competition injuries begin to aggravate a sudden appearance of arthritis you didn't have in your teens, twenties, or thirties (Yes, wisdom comes with age!). Kata will keep you in the martial arts instead of giving up once your competition days are over.

Kata is the DNA of your style, kata contains all the information to be transmitted to the next generation of TKD, Karate, Kung fu, Judo, etc. etc. students and enthusiasts. Kata will save the martial arts from blurring into a nondescript blotch, then having certain styles being re-invented all over again.

With this kata knowledge, then can the talented practitioner put these techniques into competition practice. That's the value of kata!

[Jerusalem]

I've never studied Karate in any depth, so I'm speaking second-hand here.
Friend of mine has studied karate for many years and taken several styles. He was commenting on bunkai of forms that he knew and how the kata of some karate styles are similar, but the movements are somewhat different depending on the style. He also said that he learned a style where the bunkai of the kata didn't seem to work very well. Then he took another style in which the kata were similar but, as he put it, the moves were really ugly. He went on to say that though the moves weren't as pretty the bunkai actually worked with the 'ugly' kata whereas they didn't with the 'pretty' kata.

I've seen many posts in this thread state bunkai. My question is: Does this sort of thing happen often throughout the different styles of Karate?
I understand style loyalty. I'm not questioning the ability of ppl to make styles work. Just if modification of kata happens to hurt the style rather than help it.

[SteyrAUG]

I've seen many posts in this thread state bunkai. My question is: Does this sort of thing happen often throughout the different styles of Karate?
I understand style loyalty. I'm not questioning the ability of ppl to make styles work. Just if modification of kata happens to hurt the style rather than help it.


It's the rule rather than the exception in almost all "modern" form of karate.

Shotokan is the classic example. One can look at the genesis from the original (mostly correct) Shotokai, to the revisions of the JKA Shotokan style to the post Nakayama ridiculously exaggerated forms seen today in far too many schools.

[Jeff Burger]

"You guys who are new have no idea how this is going to advance your knowledge and hopefully your applied skills over time."

Not just the new guys. I have learned gotten alot out of Budoseek.

Jeff

[David Craik]

That was a great post, Chris.

[TonyU]

I also agree that it was a great post. I also agree with Chris that Kata and Kumite has to go hand in hand.
Also when we test in front our sensei (who is Okinawan) all he wants to see is certain specific katas even though we practice jiyu and yakosuko kumites.
I've also learned alot myself. Nothing like a learnig experince when you get spanked on an internet forum. :laugh:
If I may later on today or tomorrow I'll post some suggestions on how to get the most out of kata and how to make it work for you today in a modern soceity. It will only be suggestions from my experience. Unfortunately I can't now because it will be rather long and I'm on my way out.

[David Craik]

I have recently thinking a bit about how kata may relate to the ideal of 'mushin', 'no mind', and the 'non abiding mind' - and 'muscle memory'.

These are often compared to eating - one performs the tasks of reaching down, picking up the food, and bringing it to the mouth without even thinking about it. But of course, the food just sits there (unless it's really fresh!); not the same as fighting a living opponent.

So, let's take the act of driving by an experienced driver. The actions of the cars, pedestrians, animals, etc. are not completely possible to predict; but the driver shifts, accelerates, brakes, and steers without thinking very much about it - much like the diner in the previous example. Because he has performed these actions countless times, he can use them effortlessly in myriad combinations within his unpredictable environment.

I believe kata are something like this, allowing the experienced fighter to gain the familiarity to operate much like the driver above.

[Jeff Burger]

I think the driver is a good example of why NOT to kata.
You dont learn prearrange driving. You learn the basics and build a skill by experiencing when to apply them.

Jeff

[lightninrod]

I have certainly enjoyed reading this thread. It is all very interesting. What about Goju Ryu? Everyone is talking about Shotokan and a couple of other styles, but I don't see anything here about Goju Ryu. Doesn't it come from Funakoshi? I'm just curious, as I studied it for a short while, but left because of the lack of relation between the kata we were learning and the fighting methods we were practicing. It didn't make sense to me that we would learn all these kata and then the instructor wanted us to stand up straight and bounce around kickboxer-style. I had the feeling that he didn't have a clue what his kata were about, and his students had no real fighting ability whatsoever. If I did anything out of the ordinary during sparring, they were done for. And then the instructor would ask me where I learned it from, and tell me to stick with what he was teaching. He especially didn't like it when I would tell him that it was some technique that I had seen in a book. So, needless to say, I decided early on that forms did nothing but drive the spontenaety out of a person. I've always been all about on-the-spot improvisation. After reading this thread, I think I will have to back off of my "anti-form" prejudice a little. Hats off to you guys who know what they're about. So anyway, where does Goju Ryu come from, and does it have any "traditional validity", or can it be grouped in with Shotokan and the other more recently devised styles?

[David Craik]

I think the driver is a good example of why NOT to kata.
You dont learn prearrange driving. You learn the basics and build a skill by experiencing when to apply them.

I dunno, the way I learned to drive from my dad was pretty prearranged ("turn here", "change lanes", slow down") :)

But seriously, in the context of body mechanics, how are the basics learned? Through repetition. And whether this repetition comes in the form of shadow boxing, punching and kicking drills, striking a bag, or through kata seems much the same to me.

But I can see your point, and this is why I consider the traditional two-person kata of many koryu to be superior to kata done alone. Not only the benefit of interaction, but your opponent at higher levels can even speed up, slow down, halt or launch into an entirely different kata halfway through.

[Jeff Burger]

Unless its 2 man kata it just doesnt help you read your opponent. Even with 2 man you still know what coming.
You can know how to defend against any technique but alot of whether you can pull it off or not depends on seeing and choosing.

Defensive speed.
Speed of ...
Percetion (something is happening)
Recognition (whats happening)
Decision (what to do about whats happening)
Initiation ( start ...take the decision to physical)
Execution ( mph speed)


Rory
"I learned how to consciously trigger tachypsychia, that state where you perceive everything in slow motion."

Now this Id like to learn.
I have had those moments but whehter its on or not isnt much under my control.
If anything helped me reach it more often it was Tai Chi.
I have had plenty of automatic / reflexive responses as well and have seen it in my students. Its mostly from how we train with focus mitts / Thai pads.
There are certain drills we just do everyday.
So that is in a way our kata.

Jeff

[BUDO BULLDOG]

This is where I see the true value of Kata’s – keep what their original intent was. Their original intent was to address the combat concerns of that community at that time. Kata address the types of attacks that someone had to face as well as the type of training methods that where available at that time period.

Kata/Forms are timeless and extremely valuable to all and any MA styles if keep their original intent of the combat goals that they wish to achieve.

In keeping with this theory/opinion, I submit that what we may want to do with Kata/Forms, in today’s context, is keep them as a part of our MA experience but update them.

Update them but do not change the original intent.

Have your Kata/Forms address the combat concerns of your community and the type of training that you offer or are offered to your students.

Presently I will be starting a MAM program at my church. My debate is to keep the original TKD MDK forms –or- Update them –or- go to a set of combinations for each belt level that corresponds to the lessons that are being taught at particular level. [/B]

[B]I am at a 50 – 50 split on keeping the original forms or going to the combination format – what do you think?

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[n2shotokai]

I started a MA program at my church 6+ years ago. In my case it is free as a community service which makes it very different from a standard dojo. Over the years I tried various different approaches and came to the conclussion that it was best for me to stick with what I know best and not try to be all things to all people. I found that I could not please everyone and when I stuck to my traditional format my attendance grew.

[jamesomaxwell]

:bow:

After scanning over the replies to "Erik"s original post I have identified several questions and statements that I would like to address.

Are forms helpful?

Do forms have any real value?

Forms do not help you become a better fighter.

Forms are different depending on the teacher.

I'm going to address these from the perspective of Kuk Sool Won. I'm doing this because my experiance is in Kuk Sool Won, (primarily), and also because this is the Martial Arts System that "Erik" was involved in.
Forms are helpful because they teach you to move. In Kuk Sool Won you are started by learning the basic memorization of the movements. Front kick here, punch, cross block, high block, inside kick, jump spin kick, etc. Basic memorization is the first stage. After a student memorized the movements then the energy is directed toward the next step which is precision. The student is instructed on proper body form, (stances), proper hand positioning for strikes, (alignment), etc. This stage of precision teaches the student detail so that the student is not sloppy and all martial artists, martialists, and general people know that being sloppy is not good. The third and final step in learning forms in Kuk Sool Won is the stage of smoothness. My teacher, who is fairly young, was amazed and impressed when he found out from his teacher that all of the movements in all Kuk Sool Won forms are all supposed to be circular in their movements. Basically that means that the body never stops moving, it is contantly "flowing like water" from one movement to another.
Recap
There are three steps in learning forms in Kuk Sool Won:
1. Memorization
2. Precision
3. Smoothness
My teacher has been in Kuk Sool Won for over 12 years and is a 3rd degree black belt and after the additional instruction that he recieved from his teachers over the summer he has been given a higher level of understanding of the art which has put him back to stage one of his own form training.
One day I asked my teacher is there was any form just for developing Ki. My teacher looked at me with a funny smile and told me that all of the forms in Kuk Sool Won cultivate Ki. These forms don't just show you how to punch or kick or how to balance yourself, there is more to the forms.
I've been legally driving for five years. When I drive I don't think about, "oh I have to make a left turn" and then go through my mental checklist of what to do when making a left turn, I don't think about it I just do it. Why is it that I don't think about it? I've been driving, doing my driving Kata for five years and I have developed a state of no-mind. The same is with martial arts. The goal is a state of no-mind and also a state of near perfection. If you practice punches, kicks, forms, and sparring then you can be a strong martial artist and opponent. Sparring by itself does not teach you how to punch and kick properly, you need bag training to develop that. Sparring by itself does not develop no-mind or cultivate Ki. Forms by themself do not simulate actually seeing an opponent trying to hit or kick you. All things have their place and purpose. A boxer does not just spar all of the time. He also spends much of his time bag training. He does that in order to make the punches and comboes second nature. The bag training can be seen as the boxer's Kata. For someone to say that one of the parts of a martial arts system is not really needed they show ego and disrespect. When Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh was a young child he was chosen to start on his martial arts path. At the age that most American children are in highschool or college, In Hyuk Suh was studying in monasteries. In Hyuk Suh took the knowledge that was instilled in him over his life and developed it into the National Korean Martial Art...Kuk Sool Won. Don't you think that if there was something that was not really needed to develop a complete martial artist that he would have already just left it out? Everything has a purpose.
In come martial arts I guess it is possible for forms to differ depending on the teacher and the location. However, in Kuk Sool Won you can walk into any school anywhere in the world and you will see the same form. When Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh left Korea in the '70s and came to America, he left Korea in the hands of a highly trained Master. In Hyuk Suh then set up his world headquarters in Tomball Texas in order to not just spread Kuk Sool Won across the world but to oversee the quality of the art. It can be seen that the Koreans seem to have a harder look to their forms than the American's softer look, but the movements are the same, the forms are the same.
What I've tried to point out it that forms hold a vital role in the development of a martial artist in a particular art, and they should not be underestimated. If they are in an art then it is for a reason.

With respect,

[Cliff Hargrave]

My teacher, who is fairly young, was amazed and impressed when he found out from his teacher that all of the movements in all Kuk Sool Won forms are all supposed to be circular in their movements.

Is he in Beaumont?



When I drive I don't think about, "oh I have to make a left turn" and then go through my mental checklist of what to do when making a left turn, I don't think about it I just do it.

That is because when you learned to drive you did not learn a specific pattern of turn left-turn right-slow down-speed up, etc. You learned each specific movement and then used them in a dynamic way - actually practicing driving. You didn't go to a place and perform the same pattern over and over, you went to a street where you had to think, react to other vehicles, pay attention, and perform the driving correctly.


Sparring by itself does not teach you how to punch and kick properly, you need bag training to develop that. Sparring by itself does not develop no-mind or cultivate Ki.

I say your time is better spent on bag work and sparring than on forms. Even one and three step drills with a partner are head and shoulders better than forms.

Oh and nothing will cultivate Ki because it doesn't exist. If you can prove it exists then please visit http://www.randi.org/ and make arrangements to collect your money.



Forms by themself do not simulate actually seeing an opponent trying to hit or kick you.

That is my problem with it. Forms don't simulate anything except the form.


A boxer does not just spar all of the time. He also spends much of his time bag training. He does that in order to make the punches and comboes second nature. The bag training can be seen as the boxer's Kata.


No, because the boxer isnt hitting the bag in an exact pattern. He is mixing it up, combining power, speed, footwork, and body and head movement.



For someone to say that one of the parts of a martial arts system is not really needed they show ego and disrespect.

Just because you do not agree with something you have an ego and are disrespectful? Also ego is not a bad thing, uncontrolled ego is. Being self assured and confident is not egotistical.

That smacks of brainwashing. Blindly following whatever the master says........

Don't take this the wrong way, I am not jumping on you, I am just not agreeing with you. I guess Erik and I are a minority here.

Kata/forms - No
Ki - No
Tradition- No

Conditioning - Yes
Technical perfection through drills, bag and mitt work, and sparring - Yes
Combative Mindset - H*ll Yes

I am a reality convert. I have done tons of kata in both Karate and Jiujitsu since I was 13 years old.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Rory
"I learned how to consciously trigger tachypsychia, that state where you perceive everything in slow motion."

Now this Id like to learn.
I have had those moments but whehter its on or not isnt much under my control.
If anything helped me reach it more often it was Tai Chi.
I have had plenty of automatic / reflexive responses as well and have seen it in my students. Its mostly from how we train with focus mitts / Thai pads.
There are certain drills we just do everyday.
So that is in a way our kata.

Jeff

I have actually never heard of consciously triggering tachypsychia. I was always under the assumption that it is an involuntary response caused by stress and adrenaline like auditory exclusion and tunnel vision.

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Yes Cliff, I too have done many years of Kata/Forms and feel the same way that you do in regards to their true martial application.

I also understand the point that Chris makes in regards to Forms being a means that unifies MA in general.

My convictions in regards to Forms grow stronger as I read the variety of responses.

The MA are an individual journey and if Forms work for you then fantastic. Utilize this tool and enjoy the journey.

For others, such as my self, Forms need to keep their original martial intent in order to have a purpose in my journey.

This concept of modernization is not new. Look at the history of any traditional MA and in it’s day of conception it was new. The art of Kuk Sool Won, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Shotokan, Aikido and Judo – are examples of the evolution of preexisting MA into a modern format that addressed the needs of the community at that time.

Why is today any different.

Or is it that in America, in order to have creditability to some, you must have an oriental presentation to it?

I mean no disrespect to the MA history of your chosen style or to any ones instructors but have you noticed that:

[1] A guy with a name like –Funakoshi, Kano, Chojun Miyagi, Nishyama , Mabuni and Bruce Lee – decides to be bold and modernize an existing art that we are more willing to lend them creditability and acceptance.

[2] A guy with a name like – Dalke, Cook, Dometrich, Ivan, McCarthy and Merriman – decides to be bold and maintain the creditability of a traditional art that we may have to have them work twice as hard to earn our creditability and acceptance.

[3] A guy with the name like – Norris, Wallace, Urban, and Lewis – decide to be bold and modernize an existing art that we may have to have them work twice as hard to earn our creditability and acceptance.

NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ART –or- MARTIAL DOCTRINE – ENJOY IT – and let the debate continue for it pushes us to think and grow.
Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[BUDO BULLDOG]

To Urban, Norris, Wallace, Lewis, Blair and others masters such as these –

THANK YOU!

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[TonyU]

I agree with the qoute of "enjoy it." If you do kata fine. If you don't, that's fine. We can all agree to disagree.
Most people already know my opinion on kata. The only thing I like to add is that it is also a fun puzzle to me. I enjoy trying to decipher the moves. If I feel it's a viable move then I work it. It's something I can do and work on in my living room floor without extra equipment.

[jamesomaxwell]

:bow:

I understand your points Cliff, and although you have good points I'm slightly confused about your position.

What is your purpose for studing martial arts?

Because if someone is not interested in the martial art as a whole and the tradition that is involved in it, then are you involved in a martial sport instead of a martial art?

And as far as the subject of Ki, hah, thats not worth the time to try to explain. I can't see the wind, but I feel it, the same is Ki.

Respectfully,

[Jeff Burger]

"Because if someone is not interested in the martial art as a whole and the tradition that is involved in it, then are you involved in a martial sport instead of a martial art?"

So if someone isnt traditional they are sport? Anyone not doing kata is sport?
No

Cliff is a LEO. While anyone including LEO can do sport or tradition a LEO has priority goal than keeping a tradition alive and well. Keeping themsleves alive and well.

Jeff

[Cliff Hargrave]

What Jeff said.

I am all about staying alive.

I have found sporting methods of training and conditioning are more beneficial than traditional training methods. However they must be approached with a combative purpose and not a purely sportive mindset for them to be effective for me in real life encounters.

However I just got off the phone this morning with one of my former traditional jujutsu instructors and he wants me to help him teach some seminars. :) I guess I might have to drag a black belt and white dogi out of my attic. I hope the mice haven't chewed them up. Luckily he is pretty realistic too, former LEO, and the one that got be started in escrima.

I may even have to BOW at these schools..................


:laugh:

[Erik]

For someone to say that one of the parts of a martial arts system is not really needed they show ego and disrespect.

Don't you think that if there was something that was not really needed to develop a complete martial artist that he would have already just left it out? Everything has a purpose.

If they are in an art then it is for a reason.

It is ALWAYS sensible to ask questions to take personal responsibility for understanding something. Not doing so makes one into sheep.

There is too much art in Kuk Sool for me. I cannot be bothered with things that are inefficient or not practical. These forms are for kids who don't already know how to move. Having done the amount of fighting I've done, NHB in a ring or as a bouncer, I am very sensitive about diluting my potency with things that are likely to get me smeared. 80% sparring, 20% bag work, plus another 100% for raw working out for fitness. If it's not for fighting, it's a distraction that could get me killed.

Other than that, you gave a wonderful answer (I don't mean to be as glib as this posting looks - sorry). Thanks for it.

[jamesomaxwell]

Alright guys, I think I'm understanding things a little clearer now, but just a few more questions/comments.

Erik, you are right, we should not be "blind" sheep. We should always seek understanding and clarification. I have a tendency to ask many many questions.

I think I understand why some of you don't integrate forms into your training, and although I don't agree, I do see your points. I guess it just ultimately comes down to the fact that some things don't work for some people, and some people are in martial arts or martial sports for radically different reasons. It just took me some reflection to realize that. Thank you for your patience.

One question, What is LEO? Maybe I just missed that somewhere.

As always, with respect,

[David Craik]

LEO=Law Enforcement Officer

Arguments aside, I guess some of it simply depends on what you expect from your MA. In my case, connection to tradition is part and parcel of my interest in JMA, so kata are a good thing. And as kata were used almost exclusively for training some of the greatest warriors in Japanese history, that's good enough for me.

[Simon]

There's an article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Volume 13, Number 2) entitled "Kata as protection against the arbitrary". It puts forward the idea that Kata is the imposition of order upon chaos, so that it becomes possible to make sense of it, learn from it, and eventually influence the chaos. The author also puts forward the idea that kata is about mental training, about expressing a certain mindset and intention, and a means for passing that mindset along.

[RA Miller]

I haven't had time to look at the board. Forgive me for "ego-surfing" every so often to see if someone has asked a direct question.

In the articles section, there's a short piece on how early JJ kata is used as a training tool.

The basic dynamic of the kata (once both uke and tori know the moves and can execute them) is for uke to drive a full intent, full speed, full force strike at tori, usually with a weapon. If uke detects any movement from tori, uke redirects the attack. EG, uke goes full force with a boken at tori's head. If tori moves too soon (too soon defined as anything uke can react to) uke changes the target, usually to the ribs. A full power boken strike across the ribs hurts and often injures.

This sets up the first deep skills of the kata: absolute stillness and explosive motion.

At some point, tori starts to realize that the distance that the boken has to travel is really long and it takes a long time- tachypsychia has kicked in.

The next step, which accentuates the skill, is for uke to throw ANY attack. This takes a really, really skilled uke since almost all of Tori's programmed counter-response at this stage are lethal. Uke must be able, in the air, to correctly determine whether his tsubal will land under his floating ribs or tori is guiding him to land on his bent neck or whether tori has positioned his knee under uke's spine or.... any of the basic ways you kill a guy in armor.

Rory

[tkd83]

Forms can be no fun at times but they do help with focus, balance, speed, power, and execution. And when done with power with no break between, they can provide you with a great workout in itself. The forms also, in many cases, relate to weapons technique's and will show you proper form for the using of or defence against weapons. However, having said that I second what another person said, which was that you should also be sparring, bag or pad work w/hands & feet, and doing self defence.

Most styles have forms but not all. perhaps you should try a style like Ninjitsu which has no forms.

Ted

[mike booth]

Training hard in forms has made me a better, more effective martial artist. Now that is a very simplified statement, it doesn't say anything about the nature of my training, or my art, but I am not offering any theory. It is a statement of fact. ;)

[tommy jordan]

undefinedundefined
Well this thread should get some responses! The following is only my opinion and feel free to disagree with me, and many do.

For me, no forms. Been there, done that, have since moved on. I will not say I will never do forms again but at this time I do not plan to.

Now that said, I think the problem with forms is too many moves, too little bunkai, and emphasis on the "look" and not the application. Break down the forms into each little three or four step combo and then maybe it has some value. Performing them to look pretty, win trophies, or just because it's always been done that way, does not improve your fighting ability.

I believe you are better off drilling the small combos over and over, with bag work, sparring, and conditioning, than doing 35 or more techniques in a pattern.

But that is why Baskins and Robbins has 31 flavors, not everyone likes the same thing.

[tommy jordan]

I have always believed that forms were used to develope balance, speed ,manouverability and coordination, and for many years I have taken note of those students who just wanted to learn to fight and do techniques, as opposed to the ones who did forms techniques and sparring. I have found that the ones who concentrated on all three aspects became much better at fighting in the long term and were more capable of applying good technique as opposed to using brute force to make them work. I was taught kenpo by the late John McSweeney and I have kept records of individuals going for grades for almost 40 yrs. and I still believe the forms when taught properly are a great benefit to the students. I will admit that I have seen forms done by individuals who did not have a clue as to what the moves were for, nor how to manouver from one position to another. Tommy Jordan

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Today’s traditional forms where once new.

Today’s traditional styles where once new.

Kata/Forms have been altered to address the needs of concerns of the community.
This is no different for the many different styles that we have today.

I believe the difference in what the masters did in the past and what the martial artist are doing today is the motivation.

To update ones art is logical, it maintains the purpose of what we do and ultimately it shows respect to those that we have followed and for those that will inherited the arts.

Does one believe that the creators of Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Goju, American Goju, Wing Chun, Kenpo or Kempo would want their art to be stagnating and not evolve?

We will always have opposition for advancement. This opposition does serve a purpose. It challenges and weeds out those who cannot stand the scrutiny.

So can we update tradition or create a new art today?

Yes we can, but the scam artist factor is bigger than ever. The McDojo factor has always been present in the MA. It is that today we have a mass wave of those that have found a quick buck by scamming the public.

Once again I believe the difference in the Masters of the past vs. the questionable masters of today, is what is their motivation.

Finally, it comes down to the individual martial artist. It truly does not matter if you practice a traditional vs. a modern MA.

All that matters is what is your motivation and where are you going with it.

Are you giving back or taking away from the MA?

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[J.S.T.]

In my personal experience, form training was very important in the development of every aspect of my training.

Precision of movement, mental and physical control, speed, strength, balance, and martial technique can all be learned and/ or complemented through the practice of form training.

When I think of how many modern martial artists consider forms to be irrelevant today, I cant help but think of Bruce Lee.

Here you have a phenomenal martial artist who trained diligently in classical martial arts, refining his skill. Later on however it seems as if he no longer believed that form training was important.

Could it be that after arriving at the destination, the journey there has been all but forgotten?

As much as I believe in form training, I do believe that there are other ways to develop martial skill.

[Sochin]

Yes. :) ...

[Erik]

Wow. What a killer thread. I'm stoked so many people find this interesting and are discussing w/o arguing (see "Bush is bad because..." thread).

Next question will be about goals - to be able to fight vs. to be an artist, not necessarily the same thing. Look for it as a new thread...

-E

[Rudy W. Timmerman]

Forms in martial arts are like shadow boxing etc. in that discipline... Not only useful, but a great sport specific exercise. To be the best you can be, you need it all.

[tommy jordan]

I CAN ONLY COMMENT ON KENPO FORMS AND ALTHOUGH I HAVE IMPROVED ON THE FORMS I HAVE NOT CHANGED THEM SINCE THE TIME I WAS TAUGHT THEM AND THATS OVER FORTY YEARS AGO. I ALSO KNOW THE BREAKDOWN OF EACH OF THE MOVES AND CAN APPLY THE TECHNIQUES WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF THOSE WHO DO THE ATTACK. I HAVE SEEN QUITE A NUMBER OF INSTRUCTORS DEMONSTRATING THE NEW AMERICAN SYSTEM WHO COULD NOT APPLY TECHNIQUE WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF THE DUMMY. I WAS VERY DISHEARTENED WHEN I WITNESSED THIS AS THE INSTRUCTORS WERE VERY HIGH GRADES, AND WHEN THEY WERE DOING FORMS IT APPEARED TO ME THAT THE WAY THEY DID THEM THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY WORK IN A REALISTIC SITUATION. IS IT THE CASE THAT ONE SHOULD NOT QUESTION THE INSTRUCTOR GIVING THE SEMINAR IF YOU SEE THAT THE TECHNIQUE WILL NOT WORK. IS IT CONSIDERED IMPOLITE? AS I HAVE ALWAYS ENCOURAGED MY STUDENTS TO QUESTION MOVES IN TECHNIQUES. MY BELIEF IS THAT IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE COOPERATION WHEN DOING TECHNIQUES THEN THEY ARE USELESS IN A REAL SITUATION. I BELIEVE WHEN IT COMES TO FORMS TECHNIQUES OR SPARRING DEPENDS ON THE ABILITY OF THE INSTRUCTOR AT CONVEYING HIS KNOWLEDGE TO THE STUDENTS, I DO AGREE THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY MC DOJOS OUT THERE AND THERE WILL BE MORE OF THE SAME IN THE FUTURE. TOMMY JORDAN. IRELAND
Today’s traditional forms where once new.

Today’s traditional styles where once new.

Kata/Forms have been altered to address the needs of concerns of the community.
This is no different for the many different styles that we have today.

I believe the difference in what the masters did in the past and what the martial artist are doing today is the motivation.

To update ones art is logical, it maintains the purpose of what we do and ultimately it shows respect to those that we have followed and for those that will inherited the arts.

Does one believe that the creators of Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Goju, American Goju, Wing Chun, Kenpo or Kempo would want their art to be stagnating and not evolve?

We will always have opposition for advancement. This opposition does serve a purpose. It challenges and weeds out those who cannot stand the scrutiny.

So can we update tradition or create a new art today?

Yes we can, but the scam artist factor is bigger than ever. The McDojo factor has always been present in the MA. It is that today we have a mass wave of those that have found a quick buck by scamming the public.

Once again I believe the difference in the Masters of the past vs. the questionable masters of today, is what is their motivation.

Finally, it comes down to the individual martial artist. It truly does not matter if you practice a traditional vs. a modern MA.

All that matters is what is your motivation and where are you going with it.

Are you giving back or taking away from the MA?

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[jakmak52]

Team Paul Mitchell :eek:

[mighty musashi]

I am a student without a dojo. I have a teacher who show's me the nest movement to my form and the application of the technique.( just one of the many to that movement) and then i'ts up to me to practice. I get together with some martial art budies and fight every now and then, and do push hands with my friends and teacher.
The majority of my training comes from numerous repitions of my forms, jin patterns, and chi kung. DOing them both slow and sometimes fast when my mind is more eratic than usuall. Now i study a chinese martial art. which emphasises solo practice but not to the exclusion of partner assisted exercises.
My forms teach me how to move..they develop my balance, cordination, flexibility of my joints and ligaments, focus, breath control, timing, and cardio. Al inan effort to give me the opportunity to execute my technique with speed and power. Forms are integral when they are good forms. GOOD is the important part here. Many forms today are garbage. watered down and lack the ability to devellop any of the afformentioned traits in the practitioner. I believe that Chinese martial arts have the best forms. Many have not been changed, or very much. If your style has no forms, what do you do by yourself? I your style lacks solo movements to develop the body to do a certain technique, how do you practice by yourself? We need forms as martial artist. Routines are important. Martial arts are a science. All science has methods and procedjures that must be folowed to achieve the appropriate results. Many of the arts have lost these proven methods and procedjures simply because of peoples lack of faith, and understanding. DOn't do it to yourself. If your not getting anything from the forms than you should question your style and your teacher.

I had to add this after reading somones post about Bruce Lee. Forms develop our bodies and minds, well mine do. And we can, like Lee said, become formless. But we cannot not move to quickly, we have to crawl before we can walk. Bruce Lee had trouble teaching. He's best students were those who were very good martial artist. He helped them venture outside the box, he was like an inspirational leader to them, opening their minds to things they couldn't see before. For Lee to have been a teacher would have had to develop routines for the untrained fighter. He unfortunately died before we could see what he would have done to structure his theory.

Andrew Waller

[shevbo]

I personally don't like forms and think they are a waste of time. I really do not think they have a benefit. Some say that it gives a good workout, well what about sparring?

I suppose they are good because you link up moves into a sort of combo. But when you sparr you will never use that (also in fights).
The only use that i see for forms is in films (it looks cool - ish)

[Lord_Yong]

Sorry, but forms are not in any way like having a fight without a partner. No fight goes the way these forms go, and if you do a horse stance on the street, you're going to get kicked between the legs and you won't have time to dodge it because your feet are spread too far apart to be mobile. Forms are an antiquated mess that should have been thrown out with wooden armor a long, long time ago. I was always taught that forms originally came about because the practice of martial arts was prohibited, so to practice in public, they had to make it look like a dance in order to evade persecution or arrest. In order to do this, the obvious fighting techniques had to be altered just enough so that they didn't look like fighting. Now, while a spearhand looks like a spearhand, and a punch looks like a punch in the forms of today, I can definitely see where our routines suffer greatly from ideas that were implemented back then and carry on today. I'm sure there are people who would argue, but look at the forms, go watch a UFC or no holds barred fight if you have to or download real life fight videos on the net, and use your common sense. Nothing in a fight is going to go the way that forms go. If any fight actually happened the way forms go, police would have similar training methods and they'd be required to do forms. As it is, they do PPCT (pressure point control tactics) training with the various tools they use, and at least here, they do training that includes punches, kicks, elbows, knees and throws/grappling.

Should we stop teaching forms altogether? I'm not convinced that we need to stop, because forms are great exercise and you'll need one if you compete in tournaments. In my opinion, there are two solutions to the problem of forms if you want to teach them without resentment from the students when they figure out the forms have nothing to do with self-defense. #1 Stop doing traditional forms and make your own. They won't be pretty, but you can create a routine that will be more realistic than the traditional forms and one that will actually help your students gain self-defense skills. #2 Make sure your students understand that forms are a preservation of times and situations past, and that they are not taught with the intent to impart self defense skills or realistic techniques. As long as you let people know that a portion of your program is traditional and not really applicable for self-defense but more for fitness and preservation of traditional arts, you should avoid resentment since people know up front that forms aren't real world stuff.






Forms are there so that you can practice your techniques by yourself. If you do them correctly it is like a fight without having to find a partner. Also finding the bunkai and the hidden movements of forms tends to help me with my self defense because when you memorize a form and the techniques in it then you are being taught new combinations and blocks. I actually really enjoy katas. Once i learn one and i have all the movements down then i start to think of it as a dance so i can get the flow of the movements, but maybe thats just a girl thing.

[rconwayksw]

I know this is an old thread, but hey... I'm new and I just found it. I wrote the following in another MA forum I visit, in reply to a virtually identical thread.

Others have done a better job than I could of debating whether or not forms training is useful in a fight, so I don't need to go there. The point I'd like to make is that maybe they're about more than that.

For me, practicing forms is about letting my usual tension go away for at least a short while, and becoming fluid and graceful. When practicing forms, I never tire of trying to perfect my balance, my posture, my stances, my speed, my power, my fluidity, and my concentration. I find the forms in my art to be incredibly beautiful to watch, and I'm working hard to reach a point where others may find my performance of them to be beautiful. It's also a form of meditation, because when I practice forms I don't think of anything, but simply flow with the movement. Or, rather, that's always my goal, and sometimes I get there.

I know, I know, most of you feel MA should be all about the combat. And I agree to a point. But I also want MA for me to be about overcoming the clumsy tension with which I normally move through my day, and teaching myself to move with grace and power. When practicing forms, I may or may not be learning anything that will be useful in a fight. But I am certainly improving myself in other ways that matter to me just as much.

[Gene Williams]

If you aren't doing kata, you aren't doing karate. You can argue all day over whether kata are practical or related to real combat (they are both, most people just don't do them long enough or with the proper mindset to derive the benefiys), but the fact is that kata have always been an integral part of any karate ryu. Now, you may want to call modern mix and match martial arts karate, but they aren't. You want a definition: karate is that martial art based upon the empty hand martial arts of Okinawa as taught by Matsumura, Itosu, Higaonna, Mabuni, Myagi, etc. and their several generations of students. It includes the Japanese Shotokan, created by Funakoshi. Once you get beyond that, you are redefining karate. It is fine to redefine it if you like, just give it another name to avoid confusing others and deluding yourself. Gene

[Rudy W. Timmerman]

I know, I know, most of you feel MA should be all about the combat. And I agree to a point. But I also want MA for me to be about overcoming the clumsy tension with which I normally move through my day, and teaching myself to move with grace and power. When practicing forms, I may or may not be learning anything that will be useful in a fight. But I am certainly improving myself in other ways that matter to me just as much.

Boxers skip rope, and they do it because they KNOW that it makes them better fighters (regardless of the fact that skipping rope used to be thought of as a childrens' game). We practice Hyung for similar reasons... sport specific exercises (plus a host of other beneficial things).

[jakmak52]

And what's bunkai?

Bunkai is Kata with live opponents acting out the role of the attacker(s).
:bandit: Kata/forms/poomse/hyung/tuls has been very beneficial and rewarding for me. It has helped with my focus, concentration, discipline, balance, power, speed, sense of direction, and stamina/endurance. It's a personal choice and I enjoy competing with other practitioners as well. :D

[JessePasley]

I don't think solo forms are immediately useful for combat, but I'd throw those into the same heap as shadow boxing, skipping rope, yoga, meditation, jogging, etc. You will never see a push-up in a fight but I think everybody will agree that pushups aren't bad.

Who profits?

I'd say kids and people who are just beginning martial arts stand to gain some much needed coordination.

Nearly anyone can benefit from the meditation aspects; call it martialized yoga?

I can see a real problem if too much time is spent on forms in class. These are best left for solo practice. Another problem would be claims of self-defense skills being taught through forms practice.

[kwan kune]

I personally don't like forms and think they are a waste of time. I really do not think they have a benefit. Some say that it gives a good workout, well what about sparring?

I suppose they are good because you link up moves into a sort of combo. But when you sparr you will never use that (also in fights).
The only use that i see for forms is in films (it looks cool - ish)

not true at all. every time i spar every move i make comes from a form.

[Erik]

If you aren't doing kata, you aren't doing karate... [Y]ou may want to call modern mix and match martial arts karate, but they aren't. You want a definition: karate is that martial art based upon the empty hand martial arts of Okinawa as taught by Matsumura, Itosu, Higaonna, Mabuni, Myagi, etc. and their several generations of students. It includes the Japanese Shotokan, created by Funakoshi. Once you get beyond that, you are redefining karate. It is fine to redefine it if you like, just give it another name to avoid confusing others and deluding yourself. GeneAs I understand your post (perhaps incorrectly), you are arguing circularly that doing katas is necessary to do karate as karate includes katas and that anything else is not authentic karate.

So, hypothetically, if karate means katas, and if katas are not worth doing, then karate is not worth doing.

I don't think many people in this forum care if such-and-such system came from Master so-and-so and all the urban legends that people tell of him/her. People here care if their skills work in real life which was the point of the question about katas being worth doing. (At least as I understood it).