I can't shoot worth a crap

[John Bennett]

Yesterday I put about 200 rounds downrange. First time in nearly a year.

Conclusion: I can't shoot worth crap.

Solution: Buy more toys.

I practiced close-range quick-shots with both my Ruger P95DC (http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=3095&return=Y) and my AR-15 (http://lufkinscrc.org/storage/arbrenda.jpg).

The Ruger has a hideous DA/SA trigger. I was practicing center-of-mass first shots with three follow-up shots. I was lucky to hit a paper plate at 25 feet on the initial DA shot. The initial DA trigger pull is so long and heavy I pull far to the left getting it done.

The following SA shots are good. I'm thinking maybe I need a Glock because the DA/SA transition is so awkward for me. But, I'm scared to leave a Glock laying around my house with one in the tube. Maybe I just need a good wheelgun.

I would only use a pistol as a last resort. If the attacker is so close I can't run, I envision using a pistol wilst grappling. (ie. inside a car, hallway, bathroom, etc.)

In those situations I really just need something to shove in the guy's gut and start pulling the trigger (.44 snubnose ?)

The factory Ruger hammer spring is 22lb. I can install a 19, 20, or 21lb. hammer spring. Will that make much difference?

For the AR I need to get a standard length stock at 10.25 inches. The 7.25" LEO stubby stock I have is really for use with body armour. I set the AR up that way so my kids could shoot it. They are bigger now.

I can't stomach one of those adjustable M4 stocks. Ugly. Too many protrusions to catch on stuff. Too many nooks and crannies to keep clean.

I need to get my eye back farther from the rear sight. I intend to stay away from the expensive optical toys like Aimpoint, etc.

For the AR I also need a Hi-Viz front sight post. My eyesight gets worse every year. Maybe some white paint would work about as well.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Yesterday I put about 200 rounds downrange. First time in nearly a year.

Conclusion: I can't shoot worth crap.

Solution: Buy more toys.

Don't buy more toys, buy more ammo - PRACTICE


The Ruger has a hideous DA/SA trigger.

I agree, Ruger's suck. But you can still learn to shoot it.


But, I'm scared to leave a Glock laying around my house with one in the tube.

Keep it in a holster. The trigger is not going to pull itself.



Maybe I just need a good wheelgun.

Maybe you need to learn to shoot :)



In those situations I really just need something to shove in the guy's gut and start pulling the trigger (.44 snubnose ?)

Just about anything will work good for a contact wound. You would be surprized at how much damage the gasses cause on contact wounds.


The factory Ruger hammer spring is 22lb. I can install a 19, 20, or 21lb. hammer spring. Will that make much difference?

No. I doubt you will see a difference between 22 and 19. DA/SA guns are the abosolute worst guns for non-practicing shooters.




I need to get my eye back farther from the rear sight. I intend to stay away from the expensive optical toys like Aimpoint, etc.

For the AR I also need a Hi-Viz front sight post. My eyesight gets worse every year. Maybe some white paint would work about as well.

The new optics are great.

So when do I need to drive to Lufkin with my range bag?

[Sgathak]

I agree with Cliff

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice

Shooting is a perishable skill

As for your AR, on Sept 14th, put a Mag-Pul stock on it, and in the mean time, pick yourself up a cheap Russian Kobra red dot sight. Itll do the job just like an Aimpoint, for pennies on the dollar. If you happen to have a flat top reciever, Kobra will also co-witness your sights in case of optics failure.

[John Bennett]

No! This is obviously an equipment problem, not an operator problem. :)

Seriously though. My grip strength is nada. I'm slowly coming down with carpal tunnel syndrome because of my job. That Ruger's trigger is freakin heavy and long.

I'm conflicted as to whether to get a click-click Glock or a long and heavy pull wheelgun that's at least consistant. Maybe I should practice making cocking the hammer for the first shot reflexive like with the old Llama 1911 copy I used to have? What's the conventional wisdom on that?

I agree about the practice thing. I definately need more. But shouldn't I practice with something I feel better about?

Sorry but no flat-tops or optics for me. Call me traditional (or "frugal"), but I just don't see the Kobra red dot (http://www.floridagunworks.com/p-1017.html) being $300 more useful than a dab of white paint when the SHTF and I'm forced to band with my neighbors to fight the starving hordes from Houston off our community vegetable patch. :)

[Sgathak]

Wow, found the most expensive place on the net to buy that sight huh :laugh:

Ive found it on the net for between $100 and $200...

Or for the real cheapskate, theres also the option of the Barsik HS 1x24 Variable Brightness Red Dot Dovetail Rifle Scope... that ones about $40.

As far as that trigger goes, whats your hand position? Some positions can help offset a DA trigger pull.

[Webmaster]

As far as that trigger goes, whats your hand position? Some positions can help offset a DA trigger pull.
John:

Joe has a real good point here. Are you shooting with a two-handed grip? If so, one very simple suggestion, which BTW is taught to a lot of folks with the same problem is to use two fingers. Yes, assuming you are right-handed, take the index finger of your left hand and place it over your right index finger. That way, you are pulling the trigger with both fingers. I know a number of folks that use this very well with long DA trigger pulls.

Oh and last, get more practice! ;)

[peacefulwarrior]

don't blame you for not wanting the M4 stock, they do catch on everything here, and the sand weeeeew.

If you plan on useing the pistol while grappling, maybe you should try looking into useing diffrent style handgrip on the weapon, find one the fits your hand better, it will also make the weapon feel lighter in the hand. Rubberised grips often work best for me anyway.

Now for my Glock bashing..

I do not like Glocks at all!!!! The last time my local sheriff's office got some in they took them to a range and they feel apart on the fireing line! I have just have a bias against them.

[Cliff Hargrave]

What fell apart?

I have shot thousands of rounds through Glock 9mms, 40s, and 45s, since 1990. I have yet to clear a single malfunction, or even see a malfunction.

The closest thing I could even call a malfunction was with the very first Glock I owned, Mod 17. I was ducking under a partially opened garage door and the bottom of my magazine caught the bottom of the door and the floorplate popped off. This was with the first generation magazines that did not have the retaining piece in the bottom of the magazine.

My friend had one with a broken extractor and he found it when he was cleaning it after we had shot several hundred rounds that day without a single problem.

The guns are ugly and grips are pretty thick. That is about the only things I can say bad about them. I have tried to abuse the dang things and I cant make them quit shooting. I cut my teeth shooting Colt 45s in every configuration out there and I carried a tricked out Colt Commander for several years. I am sold on Glocks all the way, especially for Law Enforcement.

[riku]

I'm not much with fire-arms, but how about either getting closer or getting a shot-gun :D ?

Riku Ylönen

[TonyU]

Glocks are like grappling. You either love it or hate it. I like both. Glock IMO are exceptional workhorse type weapon. Easy to maintain and repair. I'm a Glock armorer and just recently changed my Glock 23 from a 8 lb trigger pull (New York Trigger) to 5 lbs. It gives me exceptional followup shots.

[TonyU]

John:

Joe has a real good point here. Are you shooting with a two-handed grip? If so, one very simple suggestion, which BTW is taught to a lot of folks with the same problem is to use two fingers. Yes, assuming you are right-handed, take the index finger of your left hand and place it over your right index finger. That way, you are pulling the trigger with both fingers. I know a number of folks that use this very well with long DA trigger pulls.

Oh and last, get more practice! ;)

With all due respect, from a tactical stand point I disagree on the two finger trigger pull. The reasons being it elimininates your support hand (non gun hand) for possible weapon retention techniques. Tom Cruise shows a good example of this in the movie Collateral. Also it would be difficult if you have a flashlight in your suport hand in a low light situation. A number of years ago we had recruit with similar problems. One of the instructors suggested a finger strenghtenig gadget which helped. It was very inexpensive. I just don't remeber what's called or where they go it from.
Of course on the practice I agree.

[John Bennett]

one very simple suggestion, ...pulling the trigger with both fingers.

Dang! I never thought of this. Sounds like an interesting solution. I shoot right-handed, with my left hand cupped under the bottom of the magazine.

I will give your technique a try.

Thanks Robert!

[Webmaster]

With all due respect, from a tactical stand point I disagree on the two finger trigger pull. The reasons being it elimininates your support hand (non gun hand) for possible weapon retention techniques. Tom Cruise shows a good example of this in the movie Collateral. Also it would be difficult if you have a flashlight in your suport hand in a low light situation. A number of years ago we had recruit with similar problems. One of the instructors suggested a finger strenghtenig gadget which helped. It was very inexpensive. I just don't remeber what's called or where they go it from.
Of course on the practice I agree.
I agree that in a police tactical situation, that you would lose the ability hold a flashlight. However, most civilians are not going to find themselves creeping around in a darkened warehouse. It they are out on a search for a possible badguy in the dark, then they are probably exceeding their level of training and trying to play cop. I am a firm believer in the "safe room" idea when it comes to dealing, say with an intruder in the home. You hear someone downstairs, you don't try to play cop. You take your weapon, train it on the door and blast anyone that walks in. Meanwhile, you get on the phone and call the police. So from a covered place in you bedroom with the weapon trained on the door, it makes no difference how many fingers you have on the trigger, as long as you can hit the target.

As far as weapons retention is concerned, I only partially agree. Two hands give you a firmer grip on the weapon and thus make it hard to take away, and you can always take your non-shooting hand off the weapon like you would with any other two-handed grip. I haven't seen this movie you are referencing, but then again, I try not to support the low-lifes in Hollywood by spending my money on their movies. So I cannot comment on Tom Cruise getting his weapon taken away. I would suspect that it was in the script, and I would not put that forward as a citation of what not to do.

John, one thing that you might consider is to take your pistol to a good gunsmith and have them tweak the trigger pull. They can probably reduce the trigger pull down to something more reasonable and even remove any burrs in the trigger mechanism and polish it up to make it nice and smooth.

[TonyU]

I agree that in a police tactical situation, that you would lose the ability hold a flashlight. However, most civilians are not going to find themselves creeping around in a darkened warehouse. It they are out on a search for a possible badguy in the dark, then they are probably exceeding their level of training and trying to play cop. I am a firm believer in the "safe room" idea when it comes to dealing, say with an intruder in the home. You hear someone downstairs, you don't try to play cop. You take your weapon, train it on the door and blast anyone that walks in. Meanwhile, you get on the phone and call the police. So from a covered place in you bedroom with the weapon trained on the door, it makes no difference how many fingers you have on the trigger, as long as you can hit the target.

As far as weapons retention is concerned, I only partially agree. Two hands give you a firmer grip on the weapon and thus make it hard to take away, and you can always take your non-shooting hand off the weapon like you would with any other two-handed grip. I haven't seen this movie you are referencing, but then again, I try not to support the low-lifes in Hollywood by spending my money on their movies. So I cannot comment on Tom Cruise getting his weapon taken away. I would suspect that it was in the script, and I would not put that forward as a citation of what not to do.

John, one thing that you might consider is to take your pistol to a good gunsmith and have them tweak the trigger pull. They can probably reduce the trigger pull down to something more reasonable and even remove any burrs in the trigger mechanism and polish it up to make it nice and smooth.

I'm sorry, the retention I was talking about was from a holstered weapon and the support needs to possibly defend aginst an attack and you need to draw and fire quicly. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the movie versus reality theme. I'm not a big fan of that or of Tom Cruise for that matter(my wife on the other hand). I should have clarified that I didn't even see the movie just a small clip of it while they discussing how it was made on cable.
Good point on taking it to gunsmith because for the reasons you stated but also because it may be also be the gun. In other words unless you have guns of the same make and model to compare trigger pulls, there might that off chance there is something wrong with that weapon.
I still recomend the getting used to flashlight shooting I've heard of too many instances of innocents being shot mistaken for intruders. Most people would say well turn on the light, first too slow, second you just ruined your night vision.

[Webmaster]

I still recomend the getting used to flashlight shooting I've heard of too many instances of innocents being shot mistaken for intruders. Most people would say well turn on the light, first too slow, second you just ruined your night vision.
You could get a pistol or shotgun with the flashlisht ON the weapon. As far as ruining you night vision when turning on the light. We were taught in the Marines to close one eye. That way you only loose a portion of your night vision. I have tried it, and it works.

[peacefulwarrior]

The slide flew off! yup that's right the intire top part just came off. Out of 50 Glocks, 30 had this problem at one point in the day, and 4 of them the Mags kept falling out of the gun.

This was not the best first impression for a gun to make.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Wow! That sounds like a really bad batch of guns. I guess like everything else, the bigger a company gets, the lower the quality.

[TonyU]

Peacefulwarrior.
How long was this? The reason I ask because when I went to the Glock Armorers course rently they mentioned they had a problem with a particular lot issued to an agency.
Did they replace the guns? or did you guys go with another brand?

[peacefulwarrior]

it was almost 7 years ago,

they went and got S&W .40 instead, most of the police in New york state use them now.

[TonyU]

Nope that wasn't it then. They were talking about a recent event.
Thanks.

[sean_stonehart]

John... I've read your post & the posts of other members of our little bunch. I've come to the same conclusion as most... *sigh*... it's that Ruger of yours. It's just not worth much. :whack: The same can be said for the plastic guns like *cough* Glock *cough* :up: which means you can only do one thing to correct the shooting deficiency.

You need to buy possibly the best made & manufactured pistole in existence... you are in dire need of a SigSauer such as a P226 in 9mm, P229 in .40 S&W or interchangable to .357 Sig or my personal fav & carry choice, a P220 in .45ACP. Same geometry for all 3 with small changes to make up for magazine capacity & sizes, but essentially the same handgun.

Here... to help you view the small chunk of Heaven manufactured right here on earth...


P220 Spec sheet (http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=172)
P226 (http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=41)
P229 (http://www.sigarms.com/products/classiccompactsize-models.asp?product_id=39)


Mind you... I live 10 minutes & 6 miles from the Glock factory & have owned 3. Wouldn't own any again. Just wrong geometry for the hand.

[Mekugi]

These two things are really true!

I was away in Japan for a year, returned home and the first thing I did was jump back on the range. Like anything, shooting is a skill that needs attention, and I too sucked beans. After a few hundred rounds and I started to pull my groups closer together. Ammo, patience and a constant review of the basics may be the only thing that can remedy this illness. Start out from the bench, work up to a modifeid Weaver and steadily re-build those old skills. Hitting up the NRA Practical Pistol ranges can really help enhance reaction skills and "stress accuracy" as well, and going back and taking a clas or two never hurts. Seriously!

Don't buy more toys, buy more ammo - PRACTICE

Maybe you need to learn to shoot :)

[Webmaster]

I agree with Sean on his preference for Sigs. I own a P220 and have owned a couple of others (like the P226 & P228) as well. I LOVE my P220!

If you get a chance to try out any Sig, do it. You will probably pull out the credit card on the spot and buy one of your own! ;)

[Sgathak]

I cant shoot a Sig. I hate they way they feel.

[TonyU]

Sigs are great. I retired mine though (229 in .40). By that I mean is that I have the luxary of carrying anything I qualify with within my agency. Between qualifying with my Wilson Combat KZ-45, Glock 23 (SWAT), Colt Agent, M-4, MP-5, one tends to run out of time. I still enjoy shooting it. I just don't carry it for duty use.
One our municipalities here switched from the 220 to the Glock 21.
Even though I do like Glocks, I wouldn't have made the switch.
Talking about shooting, anyone have or has shot a Detonics Combatmaster 45. I own one. It's a beaut.

[John Bennett]

Thanks for the links Sean.

I will try to rent a Sig next time I'm in Houston or Dallas.

I knew the Ruger had a loooooong initial trigger when I bought it. I'm afraid my quest for the ultimate pistol will be like my quest for the ultimate motorcycle.

Over the years I owned several. None ever really "did it" for me.

My Kawasaki (Llama) was cheap, but very limited and not worth fixing up.
My Suzuki (Ruger) was cheap & dependable, but uncomfortable and soul-less.
A Harley (1911) would never be practical for the high-speed, long-distance touring I like to do.
The BMW (HK - Sig) I have now is the bike I always wanted. Comfortable, durable, reliable, and worth maintaining properly for many years of service.

I guess I'll have to save my pennies and buy a high-quality product.