Weapons and Legality question

[Akuma]

I just read an article in a MA magazine about having weapons in your vehicle and the legality of using them in a self defense situation. The gist of the article that I understood was that if you used an instrument that was designed to be a weapon it could have potential legal problems even in cases of self defense. As opposed to using an instrument that is not designed to be a weapon, i.e. a baseball bat, crowbar, golf club, etc. Now, I am pretty unfamiliar with the law so I'm curious as to how true this might be. I've always carried a baseball bat or modified club with me in my vehicle for self defense situations and have always thought this was a good idea (never have had to use it thankfullly). My question to everyone is this putting me at risk legally? and what weapons do you carry in your vehicle and are there potential legal ramifications to those? Thanks! peace

[riku]

These following comes from my limited knowledge: I'm not lawyer of any kind.. Well, first, there might the local legislation may differ quite widely: what's ok somewhere can be illegal some place else. A kind of thumb rule, though, can be that anything that can be found around by common sense reasons may be used as self-defence tool - but if something is carried around in order to use it as weapon, or if it is modified to create a better weapon (instead of it's original use), you may face difficulties in court.. For example, having a baseball bat in your car when going to practising with your team is probably more 'legal' than if you face problems at 2 a.m. cruising around, bat 'modified' with 4 inch nails; using umbrella as self-defence tool against mugger on rainy autumn day will be more acceptable than having umbrella top sharpened on football game in middle of summer; and so on.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[David Craik]

Riku's right on here. The question is not so much one of actual legality, but as to how the implement will be viewed both by police and by a jury if the weapon were actually used. I've seen much the same situation here years ago, as I knew a guy who had a bat in the shotgun rack in the back window of his truck, and was constantly hassled about it by the military police on the base where I am stationed. So he put it in the back seat, added a ball and glove, and voila! It's now 'sports gear', not a 'weapon', because it's presence did not signify malicious intent...even though it's the exact same object.

Another thing to consider is the appearance of the weapon - this comes up quite a bit in gun cases. Features which, even while doing nothing to make the implement more "deadly", have caused police and the jury to cast a jaundiced eye on it. There was a case where a guy was hauled in (Virginia, maybe?) for having a legal pistol-gripped shotgun, simply because it's all-black hue and pistol grip gave it, in the words of the judge, a "gangster-like appearance". Gun lawyers even caution against having weapons which are engraved with names on the barrel like 'King Cobra' (Colt) and "Raging Bull" (Taurus) as this makes the weapon, and thus the user, seem more malicious. :rolleyes:

So, I would avoid a bat with 'Destroyer' or something like that on it. Likewise, the 'modified club' you mention may not be a wise choice legally as a sharp prosecutor can easily paint you as a vicious agressor in the altercation, by virtue of the fact that you actually took the time to sit down and alter an implement with the express purpose of making it more destructive to use on another human being.

Martial arts weapons are another touchy area, as they tend to strike the average person as "strange and deadly", and most juries seem to consider martial artists weird folk anyway. I had a lawyer once tell me that a person would be better off legally simply shooting a home invader dead than defending himself with something like a 'samurai sword'.

It's all about perception, the more innocuous the object seems the better off you'll be.

[Cliff Hargrave]

You must be familiar with the laws in your area. You will encounter problems, even in a justified self defense situation, if the weapon you are carrying is illegal. You can also encounter problems if the weapon was legal, but the level of use is unreasonable. (like pulling a knife on someone that was unarmed)

Self defense laws are different in each state and even each locality based upon the whim of the prosecuting attorney. Also after the criminal investigations are complete and you are ruled justified, you can still face civil litigation.

The most important things you can do are make sure any weapons are within the law, and take every step possible to avoid a conflict. Then if you have no choice, your actions have to be considered "reasonable." The only problem with that is no one has ever created a definition of reasonable.

Some articles I have read on weapons just border on the absurd. In one article I read a long time ago, an author suggested he would carry Colt "lightweight" Commander .45 (aluminum framed, slightly shorter version of the Military .45) over an all steel version because the steel version was called a "Combat Commander." He suggested an attorney would make a big deal out of the word "Combat" and try to make him out to be a nut case, wanna-be commando. That seemed a little paranoid to me, but you never know.

[SRK85]

Hmm I dunno about the laws at all. I know that if you are carrying a gun you must put it in a lockbox or the trunk so you can not harm a officer if they pull you over. On Martial Arts weapons I have no clue but last week I accidentally left my katana in the backseat of my car and I parked into my high school parking lot with the Katana in the back and I didnt get into any trouble thank goodness :) .

[David Craik]

Hmm I dunno about the laws at all. I know that if you are carrying a gun you must put it in a lockbox or the trunk so you can not harm a officer if they pull you over.

Depends on the state. In NC you must have it in plain view..you can roll down the street with a gun on your dash and you're quite legal.

[SRK85]

O well the guy I was getting certified from in handguns told me a few legal issues.

[lightninrod]

Depends on the state. In NC you must have it in plain view..you can roll down the street with a gun on your dash and you're quite legal.

Yeah. It's like that in most states, I believe. Every time I have been pulled over with a gun in the car I drop out the clip and set the gun on the dash. (Some states, like Florida, only ask that the gun be unloaded. Then it isn't a concealed weapon, even if it is concealed.)
I never went to jail over it, but the police sure got their panties in a wad every time. They really got wound up over my having a weapon - as though only the police should be armed.
So even if you don't get into legal trouble, you can bet that the police will hassle you endlessly if they have pulled you over before and know you carry a gun. Every time they see your vehicle, you had best be driving perfect or they will stop you and insist on searching you and your vehicle again and again and again. That's been my experience.
And if you have a MA weapon, be prepared to be hassled and ridiculed for it, even if it is legal.
Interestingly, I've only had these problems with city cops. (Not all of them. Just most of them.) Sheriff deputies and state patrol officers seem much more proffessional and business-like and don't seem to have the same ego problem as many of the local police I have come across.
So remember - just because something is legal doesn't mean that the police will be happy about it.
Again this is simply my experience. I am in no way trying to put the police down. Many of them are fine people who do an exceptional job. I'm only making the point that we are subject to their whims just as much as any prosecutor or judge, and many of them frown upon people carrying weapons of any sort. Like some people here have said, it's best if a weapon doesn't look like a weapon.


Justin Mears

[Ken]

I keep a mag light in my car next to the drivers seat. Big enough to use as weapon if needed, but easily explained and usefull for other circumstances.

[Keegs]

Yea from what i've been picking up in this forum, the big ole flashlight is the way to go.

Question for Cliff, (I'm guessing you are a policeman, judging from your pics and other posts) if you pulled someone over and saw one of those big flashlights on the floor of the passenger side would you give the guy any trouble about it?