Who Cares About Lineage?!

[Sarutobi Togakure]

Hello all! I'm new here, and I thought I'd make my first post about something that I see all over the place on Ninjutsu websites and discussion forums, including this one. It involves arguments over the legitimacy of people such as Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. Many people wish to argue about whether or not what they teach is "real", or if it's legitimate ninjutsu.
I've been involved with Bujinkan Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu for a year, but have collected almost every piece of media on the subject (I researched quite a bit before I settled into ninjutsu as a way of life). In more than one place, Masaaki Hatsumi-soke states that ninjutsu, in essence, is survival. If one survives, one is ninja. Of course, there are other factors at play, too, such as using concealment, spiritual studies, etc. The argument in this thread is based only on the statement that ninjutsu is survival.
With that out of the way, the arguments that abound everywhere about the legitimacy of Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and others are as useful as the knowledge gained from a Trivial Pursuit game. What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived. Masaaki Hatsumi-soke frequently talks about groups of men and women who don't practice the traditional budo, but are likened by him as "ninja-esque" (for lack of a better word). Men and women like the Navy SEAL's, Delta Force Recon, Green Berets, and other members of armed forces in America and other countries, are sometimes used as modern-day applications of centuries-old ninjutsu principles. If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)? This is not to rule out that these men may be charlatans trying to make a quick buck off of the ninja name. I'm not picking on Ashida Kim or Frank Dux by saying this. I'm just saying that there are tricksters out there posing as ninja who have no clue as to the real essence of ninjutsu.
Sure, they aren't BUJINKAN ninja. Sure, they aren't GENBUKAN ninja, but you don't necessarly have to trace your lineage back to Toshitsugu Takamatsu-sensei in order to be a ninja.
Please feel free to express your opinions on this. I'm not in such a hot state of mind over this that I'm going to continually check back and argue/agree with other people. This is just food for thought.
NINPO IKKAN!

Wind Eagle

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

People want to learn the real thing, not some bastardized version of karate and a few sword moves gleaned off of the highlander movies. That's why legitimacy is important.

More to the point, the individuals you have mentioned above have claimed time and time again that what they teach are authentic Koryu (classical) ninjutsu when it has been proven otherwise.

How's this for an analogy; You buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz Sports car and find out that the salesman has screwed you and put a Mini Cooper's engine (Engineering-wise impossible) in the chassis instead of the original engine. Wouldn't you be a bit P.O.ed at that?

[Kreth]

Lineage usually becomes an issue when one of these neo-ninja claims some super-duper secret training in Japan, which they can't provide proof of. You're right, lineage to Japan in and of itself does not make one a good martial artist. But, if you're claiming to have trained with a mysterious Tanaka, you should be able to prove it, or drop the claim.

Jeff

[Don Roley]

If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)?

Just to add onto what Steve and Jeff wrote, what makes you think that Ashida Kim or Frank Dux did anything remotely close to what they claim?

People are rarely dishonest in just one area of their lives. And the more you find out about Kim and Dux, the more the words "pathological liar" come to mind. They have no proof for anything they claim, and after seeing how they lie about what the learned and who they trained under and how that is a central part of their lives, I am not willing to trust any other story they spew without proof.

[heretic888]

In more than one place, Masaaki Hatsumi-soke states that ninjutsu, in essence, is survival. If one survives, one is ninja.

Uhhhh.... really.

"A person, when being righteous and sincere, is in accordance with heavenly justice. When a person attains understanding of heavenly justice, he serves the will of god. This is why I referred to the 'mind and eyes of god'. Therefore, the ninja is a person aware of justice.

The above-mentioned principles are the foremost requirements of the ninja. Neither the power of invisibility nor superhuman actions are the first consideration. The ninja are not members of a circus. Nor are the ninja robbers, assassins, or betrayers. The ninja are none other than persons of perseverance and endurance. Togakure ryu ninpo is the very evidence that ninja have lived and protected their happy lives over a thousand years."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions)

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Ninpo: Wisdom for Life)



If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)?

Since when was "using stealth" anything particular or unique to "ninja"?? People were using stealth and covert tactics for thousands of years in a hundred different civilizations before the first ninjutsu ryuha was ever even conceived. Are you going to claim now that all those people, who have nothing to do with Japanese history or culture, are now "ninja"??

Funny. Because, last time I checked, "ninja" is a Japanese word.

[Jay Bell]

Wind Eagle,

Per forum rules, include your full name when posting.

[M.C. Busman]

When someone creates a false lineage for themselves, they become a liar. I don't want to study with a liar, I have no respect for a liar. I don't trust any "style" a liar would create or teach.

Better for folks to be honest. If a system is worthy, it'll earn its respect regardless of roots.



Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

[mysticwulf]

Along the same vein, what's the difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan?

I had the opportunity to train at the San Francisco Bujinkan Dojo in May when we were out for some seminars, and it was pretty awesome. I've also trained a bit with some other ninjas occasionally.

Last night I stopped in and watched a class at a local Genbukan school that I found and to be honest I just wasn't that impressed, although I won't judge the school on the basis of watching one class. The Instructor DID seem to have a good knowledge base and seemed physically very competent.

My question is, what are the stylistic differences? What seperates the 2?
Is it just Hatsumi/Tannemura politics?

I find lineage to be VERY important as there is a very real energy transfer that I've personally experienced, and while Glenn Morris and Steven Hayes have both broken away from Bujinkan to an extent and formed their own styles, both are also obviously inspired and developed from the Bujinkan.

Thanks,
Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

[Jeff C.]

Robert,

What do you mean by "energy transfer?"

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[mysticwulf]

Hi Jeff,
In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" Glenn Morris mentions the energy transfer (along with the scrolls of the school) between Takamatsu and Soke Hatsumi and mentions that he's even seen Takamatsu's spirit alongside Hatsumi during demo's and training.
I thought that was interesting, but merely a curiosity.

Years later, after having had the chance to train with Dr. Morris, I firmly believe that there is a transfer of energy from teacher to student. I don't know how this is done, or if it's even done purposefully, but I do very firmly feel the energy connection.

Maybe it's just random bujin, for all I know. I'm going to look into the technicalities of this some more and if I come up with better answers and something more scientifically substantial than "Because I feel it" then I'll post on it. :)

On the other hand, I've done enough meditation and I'm self-aware enough that "Because I feel it" is usually good enough for me, although I don't expect everyone else to feel the same way. :)

Suffice it to say that I do agree with all the reasons mentioned above for why lineage is important in the martial arts.

That's why I'm wondering about Genbukan, as I really know nothing about it, other than it's not Bujinkan. Trying to define something by what it's NOT is fairly silly.
Since I'm primarily interested in learning more of the physical skills for Taijutsu, and since Genbukan is available and Bujinkan isn't, I'm just wondering about the differences and how much they matter that way.

Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

[J.S.T.]

If someone claims lineage, then they should have it!

If it is important to you, then be sure that your teacher truly has it.

" The only thing thats certain, is that nothing is for sure."
(including that statement) :D

[Dale Seago]

. . .and since Genbukan is available and Bujinkan isn't. . .


http://www.norcobujinkan.com/ :wink2:

[mysticwulf]

Thanks Dale! :)

I met both Alan and Pratt a few months ago. I didn't know they had this going though, so thanks for the heads up. My schedule changed right after I met them and I haven't been able to get up there again.

I guess what I meant when I said that Bujinkan wasn't available was that it's not available around Littleton, where I live.

Of course, going to Westminster or even Ft. Collins isn't too bad.

Thanks again for the really great time we had out at SF Bujinkan in May. I hope to get out there again.
Later,
Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

[DuckofDeath]

In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" Glenn Morris mentions...that he's even seen Takamatsu's spirit alongside Hatsumi during demo's and training.


I wonder if sojobow sees Tanaka's spirit alongside Silverman during demos and training...

[RicBrannon]

Hello,
I have noticed in several places on this forum where people have asked the differences between the Bujinkan & the Genbukan but no one has really given much of an answer.
I have been in the Bujinkan for many years now and from what I have come to understand is there isn't really much difference at all.
Hatsumi Sensei and Tanamura Sensei both trained under Takamatsu Sensei. Both of them were very high ranking students but before Takamatsu Sensei passed on he made Hatsumi Sensei the new Soke and Tanamura Sensei went on to teach on his own. I have no real info on why he parted from Hatsumi Sensei other then some hear say and conjecture so I guess that is a personal issue between them.
So, to say there is any difference between the two systems other then teaching method or other minor thing would be incorrect seeing that the leaders of both systems came from the same source.
Would this not seem correct? If you read S.K. Hayes' first book, "Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" Tanamura Sensei was Stephen's first teacher when he went to Japan.
Hope this helps.

Ric

[jakmak52]

Lineage is as important as knowing who your parents or past school teachers are. I took the time to explore who would be teaching me what I expected to be as important as getting a master's or bachelors degree in a university. I believe Martial Arts is both an Art and a Science that can't come from book, only from one on one contact with a organization that has some roots and legitimacy. I was extremely grateful to be in an area where John Graden had three dojos, he was trained by Walt Bone, Michael Anderson (founder of WAKO), Joe Lewis & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, who in turn trained with Bruce Lee. But that's just a snapshot of the legimate and recognizable lineage that's important to some MA's. How imortant is the lineage? That's up to you.. :)

Keep that foot up!

[Dale Seago]

Would this not seem correct?

No, it wouldn't. My understanding of Tanemura sensei's training under Takamatsu is that, along with a group of Hatsumi sensei's students, Tanemura sensei met and trained with Takamatsu sensei exactly once -- one single day. The rest of his Takamatsu-den training, apart from what he received as Hatsumi sensei's student, came after the split when he sought out other surviving students of Takamatsu.

I'd also say that, if you feel there's "not much difference at all", you're viewing things on a pretty superficial level. I'm not asserting that either the Bujinkan or the Genbukan is "better", but they're certainly significantly different.

[sojobow]

I wonder if sojobow sees Tanaka's spirit alongside Silverman during demos and training...
Where the heck have you been. warhammer has requested your presense. Would be interested in your opinion on a thread : "Training - in Martial Arts." Let us know what you think.

As far as your post on Spirits, sure I do. I can even see your spirit as well as others including Sensei Hatsumi's. Most are virulently fascistic when it comes to sojo et al.

As far as Sarutobi Togakure's original question: "What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived", I cannot comment on Mr. Kim, as I know nothing of him, however, in regards to the other individual co-named, I'm quite sure Hanshi has met your definition and met that definition in more than single digits.

[Kreth]

As far as Sarutobi Togakure's original question: "What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived", I cannot comment on Mr. Kim, as I know nothing of him, however, in regards to the other individual co-named, I'm quite sure Hanshi has met your definition and met that definition in more than single digits.
Where, aside from the fantasies spun in his book (which was thoroughly picked apart by Soldier of Fortune, et al).?

Jeff

[sojobow]

Where the heck have you been. warhammer has requested your presense. Would be interested in your opinion on a thread : "Training - in Martial Arts." Let us know what you think.

As far as your post on Spirits, sure I do. I can even see your spirit as well as others including Sensei Hatsumi's. Most are virulently fascistic when it comes to sojo et al.
Please consider everything after the above as being deleted. Was only interested in the use of the term "virulently fascistic." Another gentleman introduced me to the term.

[Don Roley]

Was only interested in the use of the term "virulently fascistic."

IMO, the only valid use to the term is in reference to those defending the ultimate incompetent fraud Frank Dux or others like him.

Let us face it, in terms of provable facts, Dux is in the lowest one percent. He makes a claim, and those that should know deny it. In response to this
in the finest facist traditions Dux and his the members of his cult then attack the critic wihout any individual verifiable proof of their own to back up their accusations.

Of course, if anyone could provide proof that could be backed up individually instead of relying on some silly internet wanna be, then things would change. But they are not in the near future because Dux is not a competnet martial artist or anything else he claims.

Prove me wrong if you would like, but I know no one can! :up:

Let the screaming by the cult members begin!!!!! Just don't post any independently verifaiably proof be made!

[DuckofDeath]

Where the heck have you been. warhammer has requested your presense. Would be interested in your opinion on a thread : "Training - in Martial Arts." Let us know what you think.

I've been tracking down a lead that someone is going to expose a major martial arts fraud in the near future.

[sojobow]

I've been tracking down a lead that someone is going to expose a major martial arts fraud in the near future.While we're holding the press for your blockbuster report, would you be so kind and go over to the Ninjutsu section of Martialtalk.com and see if you can find out why I've been banished from Earth. Started a topic on Eclectic martial art forms in the To shin do section; asked if the Bujinkan was also an Eclectic Style and the next thing I know, I couldn't get back in. Should I say "in again." Hope you can do this for me before this thread gets locked as it should be.

[Spartan]

.....In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" Glenn Morris mentions the energy transfer (along with the scrolls of the school) between Takamatsu and Soke Hatsumi and mentions that he's even seen Takamatsu's spirit alongside Hatsumi during demo's and training......
I hope he was not referring to some paranormal phenomenon.

[Spartan]

.... I believe Martial Arts is both an Art and a Science that can't come from book, only from one on one contact with a organization that has some roots and legitimacy. ....
Could it be they don't really know how to write a good instruction text? :D I am just kidding. :D I know what you mean.

FWIW, I learnt knife fighting from someone who has no root, organization nor legitimacy to speak off. If anything he would rather not speak of his root on the otherside of the law. Ok, I didn't exactly learnt knife fighting. I learnt knife assault, or more precisely, how much I suck at it. (But I am much better now, I hope. :D ) My point is, fighting skills and thuggery are not mutually exclusive.


Having said that, I wouldn't recommend people learning from non-legitimate sources.

[tkdcanada]

Sojobow, please remember to sign your posts with your first and last names at all times. To make it easier, set it up permanently in your user CP. Thanks.

[Ronin81]

A few points here....

Yes, lineage matters, but only as far as you and your goals are concerned. If you want to learn how to fight - fight. It doesn't matter if that is your goal.

However, if you want to become "stylized", then yes, you need to understand your lineage. Now, of course, the next statements would draw nothing but "he-said"/"she-said" I got my menkyo kaiden and that's that, so what of it? The point is that, far too often, people are romanticized to the point of being almost beyond human morality (and thereby mistakes), all because of some profeciency at martial arts.

This has happened many times. No one likes to hear that it is speculated that coroner's reports of Bruce Lee's death contained traces of marijuana - did I read it in from a reliable source, yes. Do I have the coroner's reports in my hand? no. The point is that lineage, as a historical basis, is important to find out where what you're doing comes from - however, let us not remove ourselves so far from the fact that everyone gets painted in a good light. We are what we are, some people lie, some people (most of the time) don't, just do you art (if that's your purpose) as best you can and learn as much as you can...

Also - to the original person on this thread - if you've been doing this for a year then (and I'm not trying to be critical), I dare say it's a way of life. Wait till years pass, all the bones heal and the blood gets wiped up, friends won, lost, and won, and more lesson's are learned - and then ask yourself if it's a way of life. Concerning this, two quotes come to mind (well, a parable, and a quote):

1 - A famous violinist was asked to play a recital for a relatively uneducated (musically that is) small town crowd. He complied, and put his all into that short performance, to which by the end of it most people were in awe if not tears of the beauty and skill to which he made the instrument sing. At the end of it, a young woman comes up to the voilinist as he is packing up his case and says,
"My god, I've never heard such music. I would give my life to be able to play something so beautifully..."
Turning back towards her as he walked away he smiled,
"I did..." he said.

2 - "I don't think people are looking for a meaning to life - I think people are looking for an experience of feeling alive!" - Joseph Campbell

And, FYI, Dux and Kim are honestly frauds, albeit possibly good fighters (though I have met neither). When you concern yourself with a ryu, you must acknowledge the lineage, liscenses, etc. that goes along with that. They do neither.

Good hunting!

[Kreth]

While we're holding the press for your blockbuster report, would you be so kind and go over to the Ninjutsu section of Martialtalk.com and see if you can find out why I've been banished from Earth. Started a topic on Eclectic martial art forms in the To shin do section; asked if the Bujinkan was also an Eclectic Style and the next thing I know, I couldn't get back in. Should I say "in again." Hope you can do this for me before this thread gets locked as it should be.
Play innocent all you want. You were banned from Martial Talk for a number of reasons. The majority of your posts were incoherent, and you're a fraud, studying under a fraud.

Jeff

[Ronin81]

I know neither one of these people, but let's try and stay on topic....

[DuckofDeath]

You [i.e. sojobow] were banned from Martial Talk for a number of reasons. The majority of your posts were incoherent, and you're a fraud, studying under a fraud.

Glad you cleared that up; they wouldn't say over on MartialTalk.

[Don Roley]

I know neither one of these people, but let's try and stay on topic....

I think M.C. Busman summed it up perfectly when he wrote the following,


When someone creates a false lineage for themselves, they become a liar. I don't want to study with a liar, I have no respect for a liar. I don't trust any "style" a liar would create or teach.

Better for folks to be honest. If a system is worthy, it'll earn its respect regardless of roots.

I really can't find fault with any of the above. Note how he said, "When someone creates a false lineage for themselves". A lot of frauds have tried to turn conversatiosn around about things that have happened hundreds of years ago. But if someone says he trained under XXX- sensei, then it is only natural that they themselves showed proof that such training did take place. If there is someone living who makes claims of links to Japan, and fails to provide proof for this or any other claims of their personal training experience and/or combat experience then I do not see any reason to believe that they have the skills or experience that they claim. Why should I when I could prove a simple thing like who I trained under so that other people could confirm it for themselves but they can't?

And if they don't make claims, then it is not an issue. But if they make claims, such as having a teacher, having fighting experience, or a link to Japan then it is their responsibility to back up any claims of their personal experience. Remember, I am not talking about somethign three centuries ago, I am talking about someone's claims about what they went through. So that is why Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, etc are treated as frauds. They make claims about what they went through and so far no one independent of them can seem to find any proof to what they claim.

[sojobow]

Play innocent all you want. You were banned from Martial Talk for a number of reasons. The majority of your posts were incoherent, and you're a fraud, studying under a fraud.Jeff
It is an honor being mentioned in the same sentence with my teacher(s).

P Warren

[scruffysmileyface]

As I understand it, what Soke is teaching (as are all martial arts) is a system of inter-related principles, so that one cannot isolate one statement or piece of the teaching from all others, and then argue based solely on that statement.

For example, one cannot legitimately take Soke's statement about the Ninja being survivors and argue that point by itself, without regard to all of Soke's other statements about what it means to be Ninja.

Each such statement is meant to be taken in conjunction with the other ones, and with all the other related items taught by the Soke.

I have been in life-or-death situations before, but that hardly makes me Ninja. Many times we are in life-threatening situations and don't even realize it. Probably happens every day, maybe more often for those of us who drive on the freeway (for example). Or maybe those of us who happen to live in Iraq...

Morihei Ueshiba said once that Aikido was the art of movement, and that we have all been moving since birth. Another author whose name slips my mind at the moment (I'll look it up and post it if anyone's interested) said that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to consider all people who can move aikidoka, based on that one statement by O-Sensei. Based solely on that argument, we are all aikidoka, regardless of training or lineage. Obviously this is inaccurate.

So we must then accept that there is more to being Ninja than mere survival, but we of course accept it without taking anything away from Soke's instruction. Once that's established, it becomes a matter of lineage, because there are now a seemingly infinite number of philosohies and techniques to choose from.

What I mean is this: do I want to study from this person of this lineage, based on the philosophies and techniques that he's teaching? Or is that guy over there and what he's teaching, more suited to who I am as a martial artist?

Also, lineage matters because we want to be sure that what we're learning is what we wanted to learn, and what we're paying money to learn. For example, if I signed up to learn Budo Tai-Jutsu and found out that my instructor's background is purely Isshin-Ryu (just using these as random examples), obviously I might have an issue with that.

And last but not least: How can anyone in the martial arts not think lineage is important? It's about tradition as much as it is about self-defense etc, at least that's how it is for me.

~scruff

[tkdcanada]

Sojobow, This is the second time I ask you to plese include your full first and last name with each and every post. If you need to be asked again, you will be banned or your account suspended. Please comply. Thanks.

[sojobow]

Play innocent all you want. You were banned from Martial Talk for a number of reasons. The majority of your posts were incoherent, and you're a fraud, studying under a fraud.Jeff
So old sojo gets banned because (1)Using the term "eclectic" is somehow incoherent, (2) because of his Hanshi and (3) because his screenname is sojobow (with a "w") he then becomes a fraud in not being the real Sojobo? Very interesting. Now, might I humble ask; it didn't have anything to do with the fact that all of the section moderators just happen to be Bujinkan members?

Personally, I'm still waiting for someone from the Bujinkan to answer the man's question that initiated this thread. What is the fighting experience in real life-threatening situations can any of you point out to us as experienced by your teachers (or however he asked the question). Misdirecting the subject of the thread by trying to redefine me will get you no where. Simply answer the man's question.

[sojobow]

Sojobow, This is the second time I ask you to plese include your full first and last name with each and every post. If you need to be asked again, you will be banned or your account suspended. Please comply. Thanks. I do believe my name is actually included (P Warren). But, it is your forum and you need no reason the ban or suspend me. I really do not need to be asked again.

[jakmak52]

Seeeeeeeya, Sojobow.

[tkdcanada]

So old sojo gets banned because (1)Using the term "eclectic" is somehow incoherent, (2) because of his Hanshi and (3) because his screenname is sojobow (with a "w") he then becomes a fraud in not being the real Sojobo? Very interesting. Now, might I humble ask; it didn't have anything to do with the fact that all of the section moderators just happen to be Bujinkan members?

Personally, I'm still waiting for someone from the Bujinkan to answer the man's question that initiated this thread. What is the fighting experience in real life-threatening situations can any of you point out to us as experienced by your teachers (or however he asked the question). Misdirecting the subject of the thread by trying to redefine me will get you no where. Simply answer the man's question.

I have no idea what a Bujinkan is, so I doubt it has anything to do with my own style. My only issue with you is is signing your name, you can invent all the other reasons you want. I asked you once nicely, then I asked you again outlining the consequences. You need to include your full first and last name, which I already specified.

[Jay Bell]

Closing thread...it's turned into nothing but a troll pit