What's True hapkido? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

sidekick

09-17-2004, 13:35

An interesting question was asked on another site, but not a lot of hapkidoists post there. The question was asked, with the disclaimer that TKD schools that use Hapkido techniques were not really recognized as teaching Hapkido. The question was, "What is a true Hapkido curriculum"?

Now I also add this to the mix........ The KHF (just for reference sake), recognizes 70+ kwans. Each kwan has different viewpoints on what and how something is taught. A bigger variation would be kicking. Some kwans use many kicks, some but a few and there are those that claim to use none at all. So in reality, just what constitutes a hapkido curriculum?

Mike Dunn

Paul B

09-17-2004, 14:19

I'll take a shot at it: :o

As you mentioned,one's veiw of "true Hapkido" varies from kwan to kwan,but the philosophy and technical applications,not to mention Nauk Bup, are what seperate a Hapkido curriculum from a "souped up" TKD.

That's my 2 c's.

DragonMind

09-17-2004, 14:31

Good question and it highlights the growing pains that Hapkido is currently going through. I'd say that there are two major camps and a problem group. First are the traditionalists, e.g. GM Ji, Hang Jae, Master West, Master Booth, GM Hong, Bong Soo, etc., that try to stay true to some form of the curriculum passed down by GM Choi at some stage of his life. On the other side are the modernists, e.g. GM Pellegrini being the best known, that have adapted Hapkido to current street-oriented approaches. The problem children are the plenty of "me too"s out there that have created their own "curriculum" for marketing and/or self-aggrandizement reasons. IMHO if you look at the old-timers like Ji, West, Han, Whalen, Timmerman, Booth, etc. you'd find they are more alike in their curriculum than different. Same with the Pellegrini-influenced groups.

Time will cure the current mess of egos and politics and a more standardized approach to Hapkido will emerge. There may be a couple flavors but it won't be the free-for-all we have today.

Paul B

09-17-2004, 14:42

sidekick

09-17-2004, 15:07

DragonMind

09-17-2004, 16:00

From your keyboard to gods ears,Barry! :D

I totally agree with that outlook,but I don't see it happening any time soon,there is so much division in the Hapkido world right now.

I have to admit I don't understand what motivates people to act in such a fashion. I guess what I mean to say is, what's the big deal!?! Quit yer yappin' and go train,ya know? :laugh:
Granted the TKD world still hasn't healed some of its divisions, but I have faith that the Universe will sort it out. I used to think it was a Korean thing, but I'm finding the same thing in the Kenpo world.

DragonMind

09-17-2004, 16:11

Gentlemen, thanks for the reply's, but were still kind of vague in what's what.

"the philosophy and technical applications" was mentioned. Can we expound on these, for I think this is the crux of the quandary.

Some of the names that are considered tradionalists included Bong Soo. Is this Bong Soo Han? If it is, there are some that consider him more TKD in application than Hapkido. Here again is a major difference in technique applications.

Philosophy is a somewhat loose catch phrase. It can take several directions, but I would think that they all merge at the point of survival/self defense.

Appriciate the interest and input.
Mike Dunn
Yes, that would be Han, Bong Soo. He studied under GM Choi at a time when the techniques were more direct and hard line than later. He was one of the early emissaries of Hapkido to the US in 1967. TKD is definitely NOT his style. One could easily argue that TKD got it's flashier kicks from Hapkido and TSD rather than the reverse, particularly since Hapkido and TSD pre-date TKD.

As for the philosophy part, Frank Clay can definitely add some insight here.

If you're looking for an encyclopedia of techniques, I'd start with Marc Tedeshi's book, but realize the complete inventory is greater than that book.

sidekick

09-17-2004, 16:54

Perhaps I'm phrasing things wrong. I'm trying to ascertain what would be considered a correct Hapkido cirriculum. As was pointed out, Han's style was/is more direct and hard line and very kick orientated. Other kwans differ in their approach. I guess the real question would be, is there an accepted standard of the percentages of specific techniques that would dictate a cirriculum? From my perspective, I haven't seen one, hense the original question.

Mike Dunn

Mst Whalen

09-18-2004, 07:43

The KHF (just for reference sake), recognizes 70+ kwans. Each kwan has different viewpoints on what and how something is taught. A bigger variation would be kicking. Some kwans use many kicks, some but a few and there are those that claim to use none at all. So in reality, just what constitutes a hapkido curriculum?

Mike Dunn

mike, the KHF only recognizes the kwans below there was some else a while ago that had stated 70 Kwans this was to cover the people that were deceived into believing that they in fact were the Head of a kwan.

1. Kyung Moo Kwan (GM KIM Nam Jae, 8th Dan)
2. Eul Ji Kwan (GM KIM Hyung Sang, 8th Dan)
3. Yun Moo Kwan (GM LEE Ho Il, 8th Dan)
4. Yoo Sool Won (GM YOO Sang Ho, 9th Dan)
5. Jin Jung Kwan (GM LEE Chang Soo, 8th Dan)
6. Ki Moo Kwan (GM IM Hyun Yong)
7. Pyung Moo Kwan
8. Soong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Jung Moon)
9. Hak Moo Kwan (GM LEE Yong Sik)
10. Kum Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Soon Sung, 8th Dan)
11. Kuk Sool Kwan (GM KIM Woo Tak)
12. Dong Yi Kwan (GM KANG Tae Soo)
13. Bong Moo Kwan (GM IM Myung Sup, 8th Dan)
14. Yun Moo Kwan - Kwang Ju
15. Huek Joo Kwan (GM JIN Jong Moon, 9th Dan)
16. Moo Moo Kwan (GM KIM Yong Chang)
17. Chun Ji Kwan (GM KIM Byung Soo, 8th Dan)
18. Se Sung Kwan (GM JUNG Ik Chul, 7th Dan)
19. Kuh Ho Kwan (GM CHUN Won Il, 8th Dan)
20. Koryo Chun Tong Moo Ye Won
21. Kang Moo Kwan (GM CHUN Man Bae)
22. Hyo Chun Kwan (GM YOO Dong Gu, 7th Dan)
23. So Rim Kwan
24. Song Won Kwan (GM JUNG Bong Ok, 8th Dan)
25. Yoo Sung Kwan (GM KIM Nam Kyu)
26. Yon Bi Kwan (GM KIM Jung Soo)
27. Han Moo Kwan (GM SONG Young Ki, 9th Dan)
28. Yoo Sool Kwan (GM BYUN Young Dae)
29. Da Mool Moo Kwan
30. Se Sim Kwan (GM YOO Ki Hyun, 7th Dan)
31. Ki Sim Kwan (GM SUH Kwang Won, 8th Dan)
32. Duk Moo Kwan (GM SUH Myung Il, 8th Dan)
33. Kwang Moo Kwan (GM NO Kwang Yul, 8th Dan)
34. Yong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Dong Woo, 9th Dan)
35. Chun Do Kwan (GM YU Chun Hee, 8th Dan)
36. In Moo Kwan (GM NA In Dong, 9th Dan)
37. Tae Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Ki Chul, 8th Dan)
38. Kun Moo Kwan (GM HAN Kyu Il, 8th Dan)
39. Soo Do Kwan (GM OH Jae Suk)
40. Chung Kyum Kwan (GM CHOI Suk Hwan)

kodanjaclay

09-18-2004, 09:02

Master Whalen,

Two questions:

Master Lim has documentation from both the KHF and the old KHA asserting his position as head of Sung Moo Kwan. Why is he not listed?

What do some of the Kwans not have a listed person? Do you not know them, or are they dead kwans?

Finally, the Koreans do not really use the term grandmaster. I myself had to try to explain the concept to Master Bae, which was a challenge. I personally think we should get away from this term as it seems to cheapen it, and cheapen those who really are in that class.

One more quickie... rumor has it that Master Oh is going to let a certain troublesome Hapkido-in back into the KHF. Heard anything like that?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin F. Donohue

09-18-2004, 12:36

Frank,

First off, I hope you and your family are well.

Second, Hal's info appears to be the same list that was posted on the KHF Korean language web site a few months back. Maybe the documents that Julian has are for a school appointment under the name Sung Moo Kwan and not an appointment of recognition for a Kwan. If I opened a school under the name Chun Do Kwan and received a school appointment, that would not make me the head of Chun Do Kwan... Master Yu would still head the Kwan.

I tried to research the KHF Sung Moo Kwan recognition certificate (also saw one from the Kido Hae) posted on Julian's web site but I was unable to open the document so that I could read it. I don't know anything about this situation, but I don't know why the KHF or the Kido Hae would recognize anyone as the head of Sung Moo Kwan unless Master Ji Han Jae gave his approval for someone to use the name. Did Ji promote Julian or assign his old Kwan over to him? Since many of the top masters in the KHF came through the Sung Moo Kwan (including Master Yu) isn't a bit odd that they would allow their old Kwan name to be resurrected. ... especially by a foreigner? Maybe the English translation for the Kwan names is the same but may have entirely different meanings in Korean? I don’t really know either way…it just seems very odd to me.

To clear up these issues I suggest you call Julian or Hal directly. Also as a KHF member you could fax the Korean headquarters a letter seeking the information you requested and they will respond.

Have a great day and my best to you and yours.

Kevin F. Donohue
New York

kodanjaclay

09-18-2004, 13:24

Thank you sir.

The way I understand the history of this, is that Master Ji transferred ownership of the kwan name to Hwang Duk Kyu. That made it his kwan. Then Hwang Duk Kyu passed it onto Master Lim (I'm not trying to be disrectful to Hwang Duk Kyu, I'm just not sure which is his last name... the fact that he is a master is well known...). At any rate, if such a series of transferrences took place, then he would have legitimate claim to be its head. At any rate, Master Lim does have certification of Mastership in the Kwan from Hwang Duk Kyu.

The item from Master Lim is an appointment cert from the KHF which reads in Korean Sung Moo Kwan Jang as the position for which he is appointed. Most likely they simply recognized him as a Sung Moo Kwan master. I have one from the KHF that reads Hae Mu Kwan Jang, which is how I know what this is. They are identical save for the Kwan.

I did just review the items on his page www.jlim.net and it appears that he has documentation to head a kwan, and has master recognition of sung moo kwan from the three bodies. Since I have never seen a formal kwan certificate, I cannot say if any of these are formal kwan establishing documents. Maybe he is simply recognized as a senior master of SMK?

Mst Duque

09-18-2004, 13:52

Master Frank,

I know you did not address this question to me, but I would like to give you my insigth regarding KHF certifications.

I have visited master's Julian Lim, website and he has exactly the same certificates I hold from the KHF.

The Kwan recognition he reffers to is an School Certificate.

In his certificate states SCHOOL OF MARTIAL ACOMPLISHMENTS wich means SUNGMOOKWAN.

In my certificate states HAPKIDO KOREA INTERNATIONAL.

Both are School or Dojang Certificates, but it doesn't mean KWAN CERTIFICATE.

However KWAN is refered as SCHOOL. Is here that we seem to get confused by this term.
Also, the KHF seems not to give any value to foreing masters unless those masters are under the banner of their " RECOGNIZED KOREAN KWANS. "

In other words if they are piss with you, it doen'st matter that you have all of the diferent certificates they issue. For them is like they never gave it to you and then they just ignore whatever you do.

I know president OH, is not aware of the doings of some of the sudirectors and officials, and he don't even know what they do to NonKorean masters.
I my self was put in their garbagge bin just because I stand against their wrong doings.
This is not the fault of the KHF, but the fault of a few, wishing to take all of the power and control of the KHF. by forcing people in to their Kwans and ignoring those who stand for justice.

I have deposited funds in to the KHF account for two of my students 1st and 2nd Dan, and still don't receive the certificates. Master Whalen him self had contated the KHF headquartes asking for my students certificates and they have not respond positively. They just ignore this questions.
If, I contact the Headquarters they don't answer. But yet the same people are contacting the Hapkidoin in Latin America and recruting them in to their Kwans.

NOW, You all may question your selves why Master Duque is posting this matter here ?

Well, they are not giving me another choice; This dishonest people in the KHF. are not honoring the name of Hapkido and are destroying the faith of many sincere Hapkido students. KHF will be okay when they get removed from the Office. For me this is a managment problem.
If they don't like you, they ignore you, even you are part of the same Federation.
Now, I don't believe on defending the name of such Organization. When the current director is black mailing some of my supporters to damage my name.
They were so afraid that I was gaining the support and respect of the Spanish Latin American Hapkidoin. And came around saying that I was making an Association a part from the KHF, just to make me look as the bad guy.
Just as they did to master Bae.
This may be my last post here regarding this matter. I'm tired of all of this nonsense.

Fabian Duque.

American HKD

09-18-2004, 19:55

Greetings,

I said this before and sometimes get a lot of flack.

Ji Han Jae is the founder of Korean Hapkido based on Yu Sool from Choi Yong Sul and other Korean Arts.

Hapki,

Stuart :)

American HKD

09-18-2004, 20:02

Fabian,

I'm sorry your having so much trouble and no one can help you. It's sad to see I good man being treated so badly by the Organization you strongly supported.

Your friend,

Stuart

Mst Duque

09-18-2004, 21:13

STUART,

Thank you !
I have enough with them.
I think is better that way. I think is time for people to wake up and don't take their name as the greatest Lord.
Train every days, research, study, share, support and follow your heart.
If we do this we have found true Hapkido.

Fabian Duque.
Hapkidoin.

kodanjaclay

09-19-2004, 09:48

Stuart,

I have to say that I disagree. I think that he may have coined the term, but I doubt that he founded Hapkido. Why? Because there are other people who trained before him with Master Choi. Are you trying to say that none of those people had a hand in it? You realize that that logic makes no sense whatsoever?

Fabian,

Thanks. I never got a school charter, but I do have the Kwan Jang cert. Other than ranking, I suppose that we, master Lim and I, are on the same level. C'est la vie. Let me ask you this...

When I re-tested in April, I tested with Master Lim. So would the KHF still consider me Haemukwan or Sung Moo Kwan. I realize that the KHF expelled the HaeMuKwan but we both, and maybe Stu, have certs from them indicating KHF membership as HaeMuKwan. Does this mean that we bear a stigma from that association?

It is unfortunate Fabin, but it is my understanding that foreign masters have no respect in the KHF. Certain high ranking people have indicated as much to me, and that at this time, you virtually must be a Korean, or have a Korean sign-off, to get any rank cert... but that they are also keeping the money. This is consistent with what happened to you. Have you thought about filing a complaint with our government?

Mst Duque

09-19-2004, 11:26

Frank,

The certificate of appointment is jsut one of the many different papers the KHF issue.
I was registered in the KHF since 1988, inder my original master, but due to his retirement and my moving to the USA, I was introduced to Mr. H. wich was the wrong person. First I joined the NHA, because he claimed that was the only way to continue in the KHF and eventually I became member of his Kwan.
The head of this Kwan acussed the KHF of saying that my original KHF Dan certificates were fake. Wich I find out later it was not truth.
I bet President Oh, never knew of what H. or Lee or Both of them did to me, by making me pay again for my yet original KHF Dan certificates.
My original KHF papers were authentic, and He just wanted for me to pay again. This was in between Him and the KHF the director of that time.
Now, the person in the KHF who issued all of the HaeMuKwan papers to
Mr. R H; Is the same person who later denied that he issued those letters of appointment, to His affiliates.
The KHF does not or is not supposse to issue letter of appointment to any one who do not hold KHF Dan rank.
You know why they figth and destroyed master Bae's name and position ? R/ Because he started to bring out accurate and trufully information to masters and Hapkidoin abroad.
Because, he published the names of KHF registered Black belts, and many people find out they were cheated by eather a Korean or a foreing master .
Because, they fear they were going to loss control over us by having master Bae telling us the truth.
I think everyone who were in a way involved in Mr. RH'S kwan has many things to regret.
One thing that Koreans don't like is that a person change Kwan affiliation.
In my opinion, If you find out your master is the most corrupt, and dishonest person in the all World you have the moral rigth to leave. If you find out the Organization you belong to is corrupted you have the moral rigth to raise your voice against it and then leave.

The KHF have a committe; This committe mets with President Oh, probably once or twice a month.
They dicuss about something or some one and make the recommendations to President Oh.
If some one said something bad about you or falsely acusse you of something, you are not there to discharge the accusation or defend your self. Instead your name start to be in the minds of this people in a negative way, and you never had the chance to clarify or demonstrate you are not guilty.
Also, they report false statements to President Oh, in private and again you are not there to prove it is not true.

Frank, In your case you have a LETTER OF APPOINTMENT wich recognize you as master of HaeMuKwan, and this document was issued by the KHF.
At the same time they denied you because you have not DAN REGISTRY WITH THEM.
In other words they recognized you and then they say WHO ARE YOU ?
Again, this is not the KHF'S fault, but the person in the office getting a good amount of dollar bonus. using the KHF as vehicle and staining its name.
If the KHF change the people in charge of the Office, the KHF will be free of corruption.

Your last Question:
I'm not plan to filled a complaint with government.
In my culture and my country things are resolved in other ways when time comes for justice.

Fabian Duque

kodanjaclay

09-19-2004, 13:12

LOL... so let me get this straight, I'm appointed as a Haemukwan master, and they want me to REMAIN Haemukwan? After everything that happened? You have got to be kidding me.

I'm like you. I have seen a good deal of corruption and choose not to afiliate at this time. I was forced to re-test, and the KHF had said that would be sufficient. The condition was that I would also have to go to the 2006 Masters training in the ROK. This I was more than willing to do, as I thought it would make a great family trip. Alas, the things that have happened and the apparent discrimination between Korean and non-Korean masters. Mr. Hackworth told me one time that Korea does not want non-Koreans to be high rnaking yudanja. Currently, I have to wonder if what he indicated was true.

I cannot say what the future may hold. All I can say is that I successfully passed my re-evaluations and bear the documentation to substantiate that. It took three days and there are about 20 witnesses. What else can be done? And it seems that even that is not enough for some people, but in my mind it is enough for me. Right now I'm coming in off of a several month lay-off due to work, and have no training partner. I understand that Master Whalen will be making a trip to my area, and even if I cannot practice (I hurt my right hand in a batting cage) I want to at least try and spend some time with him. Eventually, I will be starting up a Hapkido dojang, and at this time, I intend on doing it as simply an instructor of a particular kwan, and not as an organization member.

Have you heard anything about the "other KHF"? I had heard that there were some issues, but I have heard nothing else. Anyone know anything about them, or the level of training they offer? Master Allen's instructor should be coming back to the US next year (Master Chang) and I hope to see the differences between their practice and mine.

I don't think I need to say this, but you have been my Hapkido since we trained in HMK, and you are still my HKD brother. I support you fully and wish the best for Hapkido International.

Mst Whalen

09-19-2004, 14:02

[QUOTE=kodanjaclay]LOL... so let me get this straight, I'm appointed as a Haemukwan master, and they want me to REMAIN Haemukwan? After everything that happened? You have got to be kidding me.

I'm like you. I have seen a good deal of corruption and choose not to afiliate at this time. I was forced to re-test, and the KHF had said that would be sufficient. The condition was that I would also have to go to the 2006 Masters training in the ROK. This I was more than willing to do, as I thought it would make a great family trip. Alas, the things that have happened and the apparent discrimination between Korean and non-Korean masters. Mr. Hackworth told me one time that Korea does not want non-Koreans to be high rnaking yudanja. Currently, I have to wonder if what he indicated was true.

The KHF is Doing there best to somehow protect themselves and or their reputation.

One of them is accountability if I promote someone and he has a sketchy Hapkido background I have to answer to my Master the Head of Chun Do kwan.

The other thing the KHF is trying to do is, I cannot promote someone from another country. They have to go through the representative of that area it is his responsibility to make sure the right thing is being done. And this has hurt some innocent people in the Process and I constantly am trying to rectify this situation.

Also that have to be-able to PROVE they do indeed have REAL Hapkido training and have Certificates To back it up. Some have not been able to produce any.

Another is Self serving interests You cannot claim to represent another organization other than the KHF this is a conflict of interest. also it prevents someone from charging Twice and Three times for the Same Dan Test.

Now as far as your testing under Julian lim this is something different and it is becoming twisted , What was worked out with you and julian and myself Just to refresh your memory read below so as not to distort the truth.

5) He okayed my plan to have Frank Clay be assessed by Julian, then appear at the KHF seminar and test for 4th dan. Six to twelve months later, if everyone at the test approves, he can submit for his 5th dan. However, the trick is that he's got to go through you and not Julian because you're the US Rep. Is this acceptable? If you say it is, than I'll let him and Julian know.

I gave full support and approval

This was sent to me from korea and we all agreed the course was cancelled also your Wife was pregnant so June never happened.

The deal that was offered was fair as you can see PLEASE do distort the facts.

Mst Duque

09-19-2004, 15:23

Master Whalen,

I want to thank you, every effort you be done to help those of us who been hurt by the acts of corrupt people.
I think the KHF is very lucky to still having you in their side.
I don't blammed your efort s to save and keep the good name of the KHF.

I want to straigh my point and make it very clear.

The KHF is not corrupted. But a few of its directors are doing a big damage to the Organization.

You said the KHF is doing this and that. But I have to disagreed and better say it this way. The KHF change policies and rules every time they have a hard time with something. They are not consistant and firm in their Policy.
Wheever some of power seen his interests on jeopardy, scream and does whatever it takes to keep things working for him, regardless of hurting other people.

THIS IS THE SAD REALITY IN THE KHF.

People like you and other masters are doing their best to help and starigh things up.
I, my self was doing everything to help and promote the KHF. I was contacting the masters in Latin America. I was helping a lot of masters and some of my old students from Colombia to become KHF or to continue the KHF. I also was traying to help and organize the Instructors course here in the USA; But again the ones corrupted in the KHF office opossed and make me cancel the seminar, when I was only traying to help the Organization.
I spend a lot of money on that proyect just to give a fresh start to the KHF in the USA, and they destroyed all of my efforts at once.

When we said KHF it sounds the all Organization in general. when is not.
It is just a few doing the wrong thing and making the all Organization colapse.

Some are doing a lot of damage by being corrupt. And some are doing an excellent job and extreme sacrifice to keep the KHF clean.
This is a figth of both forces.
Unfortunately the bad ones are taking advantage of their office power to force good people eather quit the Organization or bow and submmit them selves to the wrong actions of the this people.

Master WHalen, you have my respect and friendship and regardless of what happen to me. I still consider you my senior Brother of the Art.

Fabian Duque
Hapkidoin.

kodanjaclay

09-19-2004, 15:28

Master Whalen,

I am not distorting facts. I had another conversation personally with Master Bae wherein he indicated that he was aware of the fact that you knew about me being re-tested by Master Lim. In that conversation, I was told by him, while I was on the phone with him in Thousand Oaks California, that that would be sufficient. I was to still appear at the event in Ocala, and there I was to receive my certificate from the KHF from Master Bae.

Later that same day, I had a conversation with Master Han, Bong Soo who basically asked me why I wanted it, and he indicated that it would do me no good.

Before indicating, particularly in a public forum, that I am twisting facts, it might be better if you speak to me in private to make sure that we were told the same thing, neh? I would like to point out, that I elected not to pursue anything further with the KHF, not because of a bad deal, but because I see truth in what is being said and done to others. What Master Lim said is happening in Korea has happened to Master Duque. There is no defense of that. Further, while I have never been on the mat with you, I have been on the mat in front of Master Lee, Jae Whan and received private training with Master Yoon, Dae Un, who is a student of Master Lee, Chang Soo of the Jin Jun Kwan. If those people cannot substantiate that I have "REAL" training then no one can.

Regards,

Paul B

09-19-2004, 15:39

Let me be the young Hapkidoin for a second..... :(

Is this "True Hapkido"? Politics is the reason I have problems with KMA.....how about training and working towards our own self-perfection?

Whether or not so and so doesn't like me, or my teacher, or my org. matters not a whit to me and I don't care! :mad:

What is this in the scheme of things? By not being "recognized" by such and such, does this somehow invalidate anyone's personal accomplishments?

I am sure I will meet some of you in the future,and hopefully you won't be too hard on me on the mat! :)

I am just a "baby" Hapkidoin,but I know enough to say get on with it,and don't worry about your cat eating your dinner,while your dog's eating your lunch!

Let's all put aside these things,and work together to move forward in the "true" spirit of Hapki.

Forgive me for my youthful indiscretion. I just needed to get that out. :o

Just wanted to put this in also....What does this say about Hapkido,when the most action this forum has seen in months is of a negative nature?

If I was a newbie,and was perusing this forum looking for a glimpse of Hapkido,this would surely leave a negative impression! :(

Now I'm done.FWIW

kodanjaclay

09-19-2004, 15:49

Paul,

No. That is one of the reasons I decided not to affiliate with the KHF. In my mind, and I know others disagree, but I feel that the organization should be a method of supporting the school and ensuring that decent training methods exist. Unfortunately, the trend is such that organizations are becoming methods by which groups make money. I would like to point out, that Master Whalen does not fall into tht category as he teaches gratis.

I have elected to not affiliate with a group per se because I don't want any constraints on what I can learn and who I can be affiliated with. I feel as long as you have had legitimate training, you are a practitioner. In days of old, there were no associations. There was student and teacher. This is my preference, and even though you see KOMA-USA beside my name, this is the model I follow. I only issue rank to MY students and I only claim MY students. We are not recruiting members, nor do we wish to grow except from within.

I think much of this wreaks of xenophobic elitism. I do have friends who are KHF and that does not diminish my respect for them. We simply have different affiliations. My only point is that there was other discussions and that Master Whalen may not have been aware of them. As stated, before publicly calling someone on the carpet, one should ask questions. He has my number, and my previous post would not have happened had he called me and asked me about it.

American HKD

09-19-2004, 18:03

Greetings,

I believe the KHF has no clue how to deal with Hapkidoin outside of Korea, meaning the USA and globally.
They are unfamilar with outside customs, and the many different Assoc. people trained with. I think that scares them.

Master Bae was willing to go that root but he was fired over the leaderships insecurities and general opposition.

I came to terms with that although I'm not happy about it.
I'm a trusting person by nature Hackworth then the KHF stuff took alot out of me I'm sad to admit.

If the KHF ever gets thier act together I would support them if I had'nt moved on yet ( But I wont hold my breath ).

I think now it maybe in ones own best interest to belong to and support a US based HKD Association or something.

We all know Hapkido already and teach in the USA not Korea. What do we really need from the Koreans other than a feeling of Roots to the Art?

FWIW I've had the opportunity to train with Ji Han Jae since last Januaray that's as close to the root as anyone can get IMHO "That's Real Hapkido".

I talked to Master Ji about this stuff all he's says is they're all my students I promoted all of them and you they don't have anything over you. He's thinks it's just politics.

Hapki, :)

Stuart Rosenberg

Mst Duque

09-19-2004, 20:25

Paul,

I'm sorry that you have to read this here. But some one has to point the wrongs of some people, to protect the new generations of Hapkido.

If any one wishes to learn or confirm the dedication I put in to Hapkido, just visit my dojang and share the mats with me and my students. You will not be dissapointed.
You think if I was so concern about recognition or Certificates, I would be putting the KHF in the line ?
" RECOGNITION COMES FROM YOUR STUDENTS " THEY ARE THE REAL AVAL OF YOUR TEACHINGS "

At this moment my only interest is to teach my students what I have learn over the years and continue to improve in my Hapkido path.
But also feel the need to clarify and put in the line the ones how are damaging and hurting the faith of Hapkido students and masters.
Many people just talk but won't act. I guess they are afraid of being fire from the KHF or Just don't care about their fellow Hapkidoin.

Fabian Duque
Hapkidoin.

sidekick

09-23-2004, 15:25

I think now it maybe in ones own best interest to belong to and support a US based HKD Association or something.

We all know Hapkido already and teach in the USA not Korea. What do we really need from the Koreans other than a feeling of Roots to the Art?

Mr. Rosenbergs statements bring up the subject of something that was proposed back months ago, on the KHF site, but was met with varying degrees of indifference. Perhaps since some time has passed and additional unfavorable information has surfaced, mabey the time is right to broach the subject again. It actually could tie into the original question which started this thread. A new American organization could/would/should put a core requirement curriculum together for instructors and students. It also would assist members of the KHF (just using them as an example) that are/have been rejected by those in Korea. They should have a place to go to for advancements. A board of directors with the likes of Masters West, Whalen, Thomlinson, Duque and other's are just as qualified, perhaps moreso, than their Korean counterparts. It really is time to take care of our own.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

Michael Tomlinson

09-23-2004, 15:29

Mike
Your question about a basic curriculum is a good one. I started in Hapkido with one of Master Whalen's first black belts, Steve Mortel.. at that time Master Whalen was a member of the KHA and later the WHF, Hal please correct me if I get this history wrong.... anywho... we have always worked with a standard KHA curriculum that was modified but very close in essense when we went to the WHF with Kwang Sik Myung. What Steve, Hal, Mike McCarty., and I did was spend many many many hours converting the standard curriculum from the Korean based system of numbering techniques to making it a standardized english terminology in which certain words and phrases mean the same thing across the whole board.. we didn't change any techniques at all, just the terminology,, this took a few years,, now I can actually look at almost any Hapkido or jujitsu technique and automatically break it down into our standard curriculum terminology,, I have also done this to the Sin Moo curriculum... I have in my Hapkido library at home the standardized curriculum broken down into our terminology for the following orgs.. these are the complete curriculums going past 1st dan... some much higher....
Korea Hapkido Assoc., World Hapkido Fed., Moo Ye Kwan Org., American Hapkido Assoc., I.C.H.F., and the Sin Moo Hapkido Org.,,, hope this helps.. if you want more info on specifics let me know.
Michael Tomlinson

Michael Tomlinson

09-23-2004, 15:35

I also have several one of a kind video tapes of Master Hal Whalen and Master Michael McCarty doing ALL of the techniques that go with the KHA, Moo Ye Kwan and the WHF curriculum.. some of these tapes have all the techniques going all the way up to 5th dan. demonstrated by Master Whalen,, one after the other for hours on end.. I have tapes of Hal Whalen when he had his fu man chu mustache and afro hair do!!!! When my instructor Steve Mortel retired from Hapkido he gave me ALL his Hapkido tapes plus I already had quite a few..... needless to say these tapes are considered "historical hapkido documents" by me and I guard them and the traditions with seriousness... it is really cool to have them!!
Michael Tomlinson