Fighting vs. Art

[Erik]

Here's a follow up on "why do you train" and on the forms/kata thread:

In your training, do you strive for fighting potency or for artistic expression? Which is more important to you?

Mind you, the two are not the same but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

And may I request, politely and with respect, that nobody argue that there is a causal relationship between art and practicality, that their artistic endeavor teaches them to fight effectively, unless they have experience on the street or in the cage.

My purpose in starting this thread is not to read people argueing, for example, that their Tai Chi is combat effective. Good for health and fitness, granted, of course, but it's not how one ought to train for the UFC.

[Andrew Green]

Main Entry: 2art
Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin art-, ars -- more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter


Which meaning of the word do you mean?

[Spartan]

Artistic expression of course!! Don't you know we do MA ONLY for chics?? Duh!!

Ever heard of the expression, 'One, for the money. Two, for the show' ? Yeah, we do it for CHICS!! :D

[Erik]

#4 & #6.

Also art as it relates to doing forms (as an example) as a main part of practice, where artistic impression is more important than fighting an opponent and making them unable to continue fighting.

To me this makes martial arts more akin to, say, gymnastics or ice skating, both impressive diciplenes themselves, than to NHB or street fighting.

Also, chic means stylish or fashionable. I think you mean chicks.

[Spartan]

oh, c'mon.... This is so retarded. Martial arts were invented for one single purpose, ie combat. The objective is to defeat your enemies, NOT to impress them to death with your artistic expression. To argue otherwise is absurd. Today, MA have been watered down to sissy dance, glorified babysitting. So, what else is new?

[Andrew Green]

#4 & #6.


Well that throughs things off, cause you'll find a lot of people mean #1 when they say it is an art.

[Erik]

The objective is to defeat your enemies, NOT to impress them to death with your artistic expression. To argue otherwise is absurd. Today, MA have been watered down to sissy dance....
Ken, that's my point. I feel as you do.

But many find MA useful for their health, to get in touch with their "inner warrior", boost self-esteem in kids, doing forms because they consider that an end in and of itself, sport (Judo & TKD), and other reasons that have little to do with defeating an opponent.

If everyone wanted to fight, there would be more NHB practice going on.

[redqueen290]

I have to go with Andrew on this i mean personally I see kumite as poetry in motion. It's beautifull. Better than any dance i'v ever seen. Well, a fight between skilled MAs that is. Watching a fight with a white belt makes me cringe. But I think theres nothing better than just watching a good sparring session. When both the fighters are at there best.

[Erik]

Because they look pretty or because they are effective? What's more interesting to you?

Real life does not resemble a kung fu movie much at all.

[redqueen290]

not because of how it looks, but because of how it works. Dont you find the psychology (sp?) of a fight interesting?, How you can train your opponents mind to help you? Throw the same combination 5 times and then be able to blast them with something that they werent expecting, or how you can watch there eyes to see what move they are expecting you to throw? So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.

[Erik]

So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.
Great answer. This is what I had in mind when starting this thread. Thanks.

[David Craik]

Wow, a big subject. For me, the artistry is the effectiveness. To swipe an idea put into writing by Dave Lowry, this is where we get into the difference between an artist and an artisan.

Like Mr. Lowry, I think of budoka as artisans. An artisan is one who creates something of use, like a potter or a carpenter. When masterfully created, the object is supremely useful..and it is that very genius of design which simultaneously makes it so useful - and so beautiful, in a simple sort of way.

Amish furniture is a fine example. It is usually masterfully and solidly constructed, precisely fitted by hand with no nails or screws being used - all pieces are dowelled together. It will last generations, but while an afficionado of Louis XIV furniture may consider it plain, there is great beauty in its construction, design, the care of it's make, and those very details which also make it so sturdy - like the dowels. It embodies the concepts of shibumi and wabi, though the maker likely didn't know what these terms mean.

I find beauty not neccesarily in the flowery or 'artistic', but in that which is formed with care, long used, effective, and solidly and masterfully made. To me, there is just more beauty in a water jug made by an experienced Appalachian potter than a Ming vase.

[Spartan]

not because of how it looks, but because of how it works. Dont you find the psychology (sp?) of a fight interesting?, How you can train your opponents mind to help you? Throw the same combination 5 times and then be able to blast them with something that they werent expecting, or how you can watch there eyes to see what move they are expecting you to throw? So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.

This is sparring. A match. This is not combat fighting.

Some people go into MA to find sport and recreation. Some to find a religion or a philosophy of life. And some go into MA to acquire fighting skills.

We all found, or will find, what we look for in MA. While the authentic objective of MA is victory in fighting, we should not impose what each wants to seek in MA onto another person. To each his/her own.

Having said all that, now that I reread your post, it dawns on me that you are referring to 'the excitement of the hunt'--- the games that predators do to their preys. lol

[Cliff Hargrave]

100% fighting.

Art for me is with a charcoal pencil.

[Jerusalem]

for me: Both. I enjoy the artistic flow and expression that can be had with martial arts. I also enjoy learning and training highly effective techniques.
I agree that stark effectivness makes some techniques "beautiful". So I have to say that I am a dedicated fence sitter.

[StanLee]

I think what what David said has to be the explanation for me.

I have seen great kendo matches between hachidan sensei and there were no osu'ing, grunting or excessive pushing. They have a certain grace about their movements and for me, that is both effectiveness and art.

[lightninrod]

For me, fight effectiveness is art. It's personal expression in that everyone's body is at least a little different, and we all have different guiding philosophies of what we choose to incorporate into our practice, so then the resulting differences between people's methods of application is personal expression. And when it becomes personal enough that one can, while in mushin, spontaneously and freely improvise a working defence no matter what attack is presented, and not come out of mushin, then it becomes artistic expression.
Personally, I consider myself a "martial practitioner", and I am trying to learn to be a "martial artist". But I have a long way to go.
As for "artistic kata", it's nice to watch - just like ice skating, gymnastics, etc. This too is artistic expression, but of a different stripe. Obviously, some people enjoy doing this type of practice, but it's not for me.


Justin Mears

[jamesomaxwell]

:bow:

Props to Erik, a good thread, very thought provoking.

For myself, in my current state of understanding, I strive to better myself by using whichever side of martial arts that is helping me at this point in time. Martial arts has both art and death involved in it. Everyone has the ability to be an artist in something that they are skilled at. Even combat can be considered art of its own self. I've shot competition with rifles for many years and I've seen people that are good at shooting are just as impressive to watch as they tear a target apart as a master painter who is putting paint on a picture. I've been able to look back on confrontations and situations that I've been faced with in the past and I can see a form of art in the way I handled the various situations. I guess I see it as coming down to the fact that the original question by Erik says it best, "Which is more important to you?", because everyone is different so everyone will have a different answer, and no-one is really above anyone else.

[Harlan]

I don't consider it to be a choice between 2 (duality) options (art or fight). It's "the other" aspect (3 battles) that ties it all together.

[nosh276]

There are more definitions, here are the one's I have.

1. To confine, cramp, restrict, limit, in local position or in action.

I. Skill; its display or application. Sing. art (abstractly); no plural.

1. gen. Skill in doing anything as the result of knowledge and practice.
4. spec. Skill in applying the principles of a special science; technical or professional skill. Obs.
II. Anything wherein skill may be attained or displayed. Sing. an art; pl. arts.
8. A practical application of any science; a body or system of rules serving to facilitate the carrying out of certain principles. In this sense often contrasted with science.
9. a. esp. An industrial pursuit or employment of a skilled nature; a craft, business, profession.




I do it mainly for the art, but also some for the self defence.

[Erik]

:bow:
Props to Erik, a good thread, very thought provoking.
"Which is more important to you?", because everyone is different so everyone will have a different answer, and no-one is really above anyone else.
Great. Glad you like it! Such discussion is exactly what I have been trying to get to happen in the past few threads I've started.

Funny that it's a Kuk Sool guy who's responding as it was Kuk Sool that got me thinking of this in the first place.

I got bored with an hour of forms, an hour of kicking air, an hour of techniques (which were rather interesting, I must add), and put my focus on more interactive and competitive practices - BJJ and a little boxing. I had a difficult remaining interested in the "art" and needed more of the sport to feel satisfied.

Hey, also, just a question - are the Korean MAs especially well known for their formality? I'm just wondering.

[jamesomaxwell]

:bow:

Kuk Sool Won is the only Korean MA that I'm familiar with, so as far as formality...

My teacher stresses that Martial Art etiquette is the first step in strong mind training, so we do observe a lot of respect for the art which is evident in the large number of "bows" that we do. We bow when we walk in, we do formal bows at the beginning and end of class, and whenever we start or end punching drills, kicking drills, and forms. Other than bowing, we refer to each other as "sir" or "maam" and our instructor(s) by their formal titles. As far as formality, thats the kinda of thing we practice in our school.

I don't train a lot in KSW actually. During class we have one hour per class, a beginner and intermediate class, 3 days per week. So when we only have an hour we cram things in. Stretching for 5-10 minutes, punching and kicking drills (fast paced) for 5-10 minutes, Form practice for 10-20 minutes, technique practice for 10-20 minutes, falling and acrobatics for 5-10 minutes, review and announcements and meditation for 3-5 minutes. Personally, my training outside of class is short too. I take one form that I focus on per day and I'll do that form fast one time and slow the next or whatever I feel like and I'll do punches and kicks between and I'll do that for 30-45 minutes. I workout with weights for 30-45 minutes before forms. After my workouts I then focus on one set of techniques for 5-10 minutes or whatever I feel like, and then I finish up with breathing exercises and meditation. So I only spend about 2 hours total and only 30-45 minutes of forms and punches and kicks.

It is better for me to make sure I do at least some training per-day rather than training for several intense hours a couple of times a week.

[J.J.Smith]

For me my fighting potency is my artistic expression. Does that make sense?'

To be clear

"that nobody argue that there is a causal relationship between art and practicality, that their artistic endeavor teaches them to fight effectively"

Basically I mean the opposite of that. Fighting practicality is artistic to me (or in other words efficiency).

[J.S.T.]

Perhaps some of the more effective techniques just happen to be beautiful movements.

I do believe that there is something to the proper positioning of the body during the execution of a technique that is not only wonderful to the eye, but it also (more importantly) maximizes the speed and strength of what you are doing. Unfortunatley I do not understand the formulas to this idea, but I have experienced it.

[Erik]

Hmmm. I was of the opinion that real fighting is not pretty - grown men crying on the ground, bodies broken, arms twisted in unnatural positions, the panicked gurgling sound people make when they are being choked out with imperfect technique (which hurts), and the look in peoples' eyes that reminds me of the gray-brown in a burnt out lightbulb when they've been so thoroughly injured that they are unable to get up on their own. They've lost the will to keep going. Just like a lightbulb, they were radiant beings and now they're not.

You'd have to see this to understand - I'm not putting it into words well. Some of you, I am certain, know what I am talking about. Most of you, I am equally certain, have no idea.

Also, not pretty, wild striking, clumsy grappling, biting, panic, fear, merciless kicking of a fallen opponent, etc.

What seems pretty to me are the things we see in kung fu movies, the graceful and acrobatic kicking, the silly Matrix kung fu that looks so fun, some forms (some look good, some look goofy), waving around of swords or sticks (instead of just thumping someone), and the grace and sophisticated physics in Aikido.

To me, these are two very separate categories - Art vs. Reality.

That's what I was trying to get at in this thread. Which is more interesting to all of you out there in Cyberspace?

[Paul B]

Good thread....I agree "real" fighting is not pretty,but the manner of devastation can be beautiful.

I think that the fighting aspect is contained in the Art aspect. The theories and principles that make the art,are what make it's practitioners so adept (or not) at fighting. Most "kata" can be practiced "artistically" and they can be used in a "real" fight as well. It's all there,if you know not where,but how to look for it.

My answer...they are really one and the same. :)

[J.S.T.]

Erik,
I have seen (and done) beautifully executed techniques that knock people to the floor.
I am not speaking of anything "flowery". I am talking about control, speed, strength,alignment and precision.

[J.S.T.]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[mighty musashi]

I have been studying martial arts since i was 14, in my youth i ws jumped all the time, and found my self in fights often. and particpated in tournaments. Today at 26 i rarely find this happening to me , i cannot afford the extravegant tournaments, and yet i am a much better martial artist. Fighting is my canvas. And i long to fight. Though i do not pretend that Jin patterns or forms, and chi kung practice is irrelevant and not worth practicng. A complete martial art develops the body, and mind so that i can respond effiecently, and with harmony in a conflict. Training other than a fight is neccesary.
I can't afford a big dojo. I study a chinese martial art with my teacher along with a number of older men and woman. no one that i can spar with. Chinese martial arts do not attract young men, or woman who want fight. This is because of the learning curve not the styles inability to be effective in a fight.
So i started visiting dojos, any style trying to meet young men who want to fight. Not challanging people but asking them if they want to get with a number of other martial artist, with experience and fight. What happened on one weelend, was to be repeated once a month, and has been going on for 7 months now.
It's our jam session. Weather we are TKD's, judo players, aikidoist, or practice Xing yi quan ect, ect. We get together to express our selves under the spontaneous conditions that a fight between two people present. It has been, next to meeting my recent teacher, the most moving happeneing in my martial arts career.
I get to exxpress years of training. I feel like an artist. not just some recluse practicing strokes aimed at an imaginary target. But i wouldn't be as good a fighter without first appreaciating the scientific method that instilled in me the tools neccesary for the spontaneous responses that come when in conflict with another.

do not give up on the so called traditional martial arts. Learn them and build upon them after pushing it to it's limits. The good ones, the properly taught ones will take you a life time explore.

Andrew
I studied TKD untill first Dan.
Teacher allowed me then to take up HAPKIDO.
achieved a brown belt before his dojo closed and i went to the army.
Where i fought in a club of fighters. Wrestlers, boxers, and judo practioners, ect. came home to teacher and continued with hapkido.
Needed a dojo, so i joined an Aikido school. realized teacher was not dedicated, taught a shitty style. I found a better school. Learned better Aikido. Missed striking, missed solo practices. I happaned across a Tai chi instructor, and began learning Chen style Hun Yuan Tai chi.

Andrew