zen?

[redqueen290]

personally, i find nothing more interesting than studying diffrent religions. Well, i was reading a book today on zen, and it said that a way of recieving "enlightenment" was to be hit very hard on the head with a bamboo stick. Now, i find this very odd, because my sensei has hit me MANY times with a bamboo stick and i have NEVER recieved "enlightenmnet" from it. Although he has never actually hit me on the head, hmmmm :rolleyes: . Anywase, what are your opinions on the whole "concusion=enlightenment" scenario. Is there any truth in this statement? if so, please explaine.

[Spartan]

I have studied various religions and I found that if you want to be happy in life (which is really all that matters), then the only 'enlightenment' that is truly practical can be summed up in 3 commandmants :"SHUT UP! Stop whinning! Get a life!" :D

If you think about it, if people would just simply follow that 3 commandmants, the world would be a much prosperous, serene, and positive place.

But I digress. Of course concussion=enlightenment, b/c zen=delusion.

zen also = rhetorical nonsense

[Jerusalem]

RQ, I am by no means an expert in zen, but I have read a bit about it. First, I don't really think of 'zen' as a religion...more a mindset. Zen Buddism, however would be. But this is only me throwing my opinion out there about that one.

Second, Zen uses a lot of stories and situations that present one thing...but really represent another. A common theme in many stories I have read on zen is that enlightenment is not a gradual shift or change. It is a sudden, abrupt awakening...much like getting hit some might say.

So, one might take the ideaology of the Dog Brothers (higher conciousness through harder contact). But I think that the idea behind those words are probably more along the lines of 'spiritually' getting hit by a bamboo stick.

[riku]

As Jerusalem, I'm not either a zen master - or any kind of master :D - and I also second that it's more like mindset than *religion*..

As far as I've understood, the main point in zen is to focus to moment, and by that way, 'see reality'.. usually we are disturbed either by past (personal history) or future (personal hopes and fears), and therefore not able to 'live here and now' (so, Spartan, the command of getting life is not so far away from zen ideals). Ways to achieve this are different, depending on zen school. Some use seated meditation, some semantical trick-questions (from which Spartan might got the 'rhetorical nonsense' -aspect), by my limited knowledge all some sort of 'working meditation': focusing to task, whatever task there is to do, helps to focus in moment. Hitting with stick may then be metaphorical term, compared to struck by lightning perhaps, example how someone is forced to face reality, face the moment: it could also be the way how your teacher calls you by name when you are training. You turn and answer without thinking, in one moment, totally concentrated to his/her call.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[J.S.T.]

zen brings no-thing.
Christ brings LIFE.

[redqueen290]

jst, try to think of zen as like riku and jerusalem said, it really is more of a mind set. You can make it a religion, by worshiping buddha but much of zen is not really a religion. Other than the whole concusion=enlightenment scenario i find much of zen very usefull. You can practice zen and be a christian. And besides, i dont know about you but sometimes I need "no thing" more than i need life.

[riku]

jst-
Please, I'm not interested to read bashing of any religion. That is, by my opinion anyone can have what religious belief one sees important, but agitative, emotional posting for own beliefs or against other - any other - system of beliefs is and will stay prohibited. Constructive argumentation, if related to martial arts philosophy , is of course allowed.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[J.S.T.]

No-thing is very important to zen masters. Who is being agitative or emotional?

[Spartan]

Talk about 'lost in translation'....

Sigh.... It just dawn on me what this 'concussion brings enlightenment' means. You see, in Chinese/Japanese/Korean (they are all of the same Confucius influenced, Taoism influenced cultural root), there is this expression, 'getting a wake up call by been whacked on the head with a stick'. In the old days, when the students (apprentices) drifted off into daydreams when they were supposed to be studying, practicing or tending to chores, the teachers or the superintendant would smack them with a stick to wake them up!

Duh! Hence the distorted translation of concussion brings enlightenment!! Good grief! Zen? What Zen? lol

[Abbax8]

I have seen a documentary on Tibet a couple of times. At one point in the doc., a monastery is shown with about a dozen or so Buddhist Monks novices in seated meditation. The teacher is walking up and down between the students with a stick in his hands. Every so often he stops, bows to a student who bows and stays head to ground, the teacher then whacks the student on the back with the stick. The explanation was the teacher was encouraging the student to concentrate better. I recall years ago in Catholic School the nuns employing a whack to help us concentrate better as well. :D

Peace

Dennis

[riku]

My mistake, jst; I was too short-fused yesterday, I suppose. My apologies.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[redqueen290]

The explanation was the teacher was encouraging the student to concentrate better. I recall years ago in Catholic School the nuns employing a whack to help us concentrate better as well. :D

hahahahhahaha, my grandma went to catholic school and she has scars from being beaten with a crucifix by one of the nuns lol. :laugh:

[lightninrod]

Talk about 'lost in translation'....

Sigh.... It just dawn on me what this 'concussion brings enlightenment' means. You see, in Chinese/Japanese/Korean (they are all of the same Confucius influenced, Taoism influenced cultural root), there is this expression, 'getting a wake up call by been whacked on the head with a stick'. In the old days, when the students (apprentices) drifted off into daydreams when they were supposed to be studying, practicing or tending to chores, the teachers or the superintendant would smack them with a stick to wake them up!

Duh! Hence the distorted translation of concussion brings enlightenment!! Good grief! Zen? What Zen? lol
What zen? That zen!!! :bow:

I thought you said zen=rhetorical nonsense.
Like Baskin Robbins, zen has many flavors. Not all of them involve koans or rhetoric.

You said zen=delusion. Getting (figuratively) smacked in the head with a stick would seem to knock someone into reality, and out of their delusions - would it not? Much like the english phrase where parents tell their argumentative, stubborn, children that they will "knock them back into reality".



Redqueen, zen is highly symbolic. You will have to think very figuratively about anything zen-related. It's all meant to make you think creatively and spontaneously, and to snap your mind out of it's "business as usual" way of thinking.


Justin Mears

[riku]

Some zen-stories seem to have quite brutal elements.. I don't know whether that's typical symptom of general religious fanatism (found in other systems of belief, too), directly zen-related, or are those stories meant to be metaphorical/symbolical.. Couple examples could be Boddidharma cutting off his own eye-lids to pre-empt falling in sleep during meditation; and Chu-chih's "one finger zen", which lead to chop off smart@ss students finger (student was enlightened by that act :eek: ..)


With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[lightninrod]

Well, I'm just a modern American, and I lack the perspective of the ancient seekers of truth; but if I went to a religious teacher and he wanted to cut my finger off, I would "give him the finger!" (If you know what I mean!)
I really think it's all symbolic, but who really knows what went on back then. People were much more supersticious than they are now.
I really have a basic problem with Zen, in that it seems like baby steps in comparison with Taoist practices. The meditation practices associated with Zen are the first steps of Chi Kung practice. It's like learning to ride a bicycle without ever taking off the training wheels. You think you know how to ride the bike and then suddenly the extra wheels are gone!
Either way, whether it's symbolic or not, Zen contains alot of truth; and we shouldn't allow ourselves to be blinded to it. There's alot of wisdom there.


Justin Mears

[riku]

I thought that there were something like those in Christianity, too.. "If your eye tempts you,..." But it can be symbolic (in both traditions), cutting off untruthfull beliefs and twisted routines.. Hitting with symbolic stick: "Hack off your feet so you don't stumble" ;)

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Vehemence]

summed up in 3 commandmants :"SHUT UP! Stop whinning! Get a life!" :D


hahahaah, im gunna have to write that down, i know a thousand people that need to be told that.



I don't really think of 'zen' as a religion...more a mindset. Zen Buddism, however would be.

agreed

“Zen is just Zen. There is nothing comparable to it. It is unique -- unique in the sense that it is the most ordinary and yet the most extraordinary phenomenon that has ever happened to human consciousness. It is the most ordinary because it does not believe in knowledge, it does not believe in the mind. It is not a philosophy, not a religion either. It is the total acceptance of ordinary existence. It has no interest in any esoteric nonsense, no interest in metaphysics at all. It does not hanker for the other shore; this shore is so tremendous that through that very acceptance it transforms this shore -- and this shore becomes the other shore.”

not sure who I'm quoting there, but Dick Sutphen quoted that in an article...




As far as I've understood, the main point in zen is to focus to moment, and by that way, 'see reality'.. usually we are disturbed either by past (personal history) or future (personal hopes and fears), and therefore not able to 'live here and now'

exactly, it's about getting past fear based emotions based around things that have past and are unchangable or things that are not yet here, and living in peace in the now




"Man lives in problems. We don’t know how to live any other way. It keeps us occupied, concerned, worried, anxious. It gives us something to do while attending earth school. The moment there are no problems, there is no ego. Ego can only exist in turmoil.

So if you don’t have enough problems, you’ll probably invent some new ones to keep your mind functioning.


A favorite Zen koan tells of a man putting a young goose in a bottle and then feeding the goose until it is fully grown. How does he get the goose out without breaking the bottle or killing the goose?

The goose is man. The bottle is his circumstances and problems. If you were the student, upon realizing this, the Zen Master would clap his hands and say, “You’re enlightened, the goose is out.” "



"Zen would have you be in the world but not of it. In other words, you detach to the degree you’re no longer affected by the ups and downs of life. You enjoy all the love and warmth and good things life offers, but when conditions change, you allow negativity to flow through you without affecting you. "


"A more enlightened Zen view says, we can choose to be happy, whatever the circumstances in our life. By attaining “detached mind” we can rise above negativity or the need to make things different than they are. “Don’t waste your time trying to change anything,”



personally I really like zen, wu-wei, meditation, detached mind, and all the rest of it.

[rubberband]

the enlightenment comes when you step to the side and break the pattern that does you harm. in this instance you have the potential for enlightenment in that you no longer submit to the illusion that in the past caused you to stand there and get hit. you see to break a destructive pattern you must first be aware of it... which is the key to zen...

take care, steve

[dear john]

okay....



i really believe that true zen and anyone who follows the zen ways or at least tries to that is, would not be religious at all. from what i have studied, zen has no place in religion because religion focuses on being a certain way and following a certian path and worshiping a certain figure/icon/person.

zen is about following yourself and being all that you are and not what someone/something else wants you to be.

christian, catholic, jews, budhism whatever, they all want you to be a certian way.

i think people have this crazy view of enlightenment being some guy meditating all day long with on life and is blissfully happy. zen from what has been taught to me is about having a life if nothing else and being all that you can be so to speak.

[Aaron T Fields]

Zen is an offshoot of Ch'an buddhism. It is a Mahayanna version of Buddhism, and the major idea is that enlightenment can come from suddenly induced through mental or physical trauma.

There are some other elements which set it apart, but in regards to the being struck, this is the reason.

Aaron Fields
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[PhoenixJKD]

personally, i find nothing more interesting than studying diffrent religions. Well, i was reading a book today on zen, and it said that a way of recieving "enlightenment" was to be hit very hard on the head with a bamboo stick. Now, i find this very odd, because my sensei has hit me MANY times with a bamboo stick and i have NEVER recieved "enlightenmnet" from it. Although he has never actually hit me on the head, hmmmm :rolleyes: . Anywase, what are your opinions on the whole "concusion=enlightenment" scenario. Is there any truth in this statement? if so, please explaine.

In some sects of Zen they use a stick they called kyosaku in sotoshu zen or keisaku in rinzahishu and obakushu. This is usually only used on students of zen wishing to become priests. It is about a meter long, thick, and rounded at one end and thin and flat on the other. The priest holds the rounded end with both hands while patrolling the zazen area. If someone raises their hands in the gesture of respect, the priest will go to that person with the kyoshaku. The priest gently taps the person on the shoulder then smacks them hard and then they both bow.
Why would anyone want to be struck? One reason is a feeling of sleepiness. The sound and the stinging bring the reciever's mind back to a state of alertness. Another reason is that posture is very important in zazen to which the kyoshaku smack will cause a reflexive straightening of the spine.
It is an awakening stick, both from literal drowsiness and from human delusion.

[gaijin samurai]

You can practice zen and be a christian.
I perfectly agree with that. Zen is very usefull and for one to reach enlightment there is more needed than a hit on the head awith a bamboo stick. No knowledge in this life comes over night.

[WaterWheel]

Talk about 'lost in translation'....
Sigh....
Duh! Hence the distorted translation of concussion brings enlightenment!! Good grief! Zen? What Zen? lol


You hide who you are? and post statements like this? I try and ignore your posts, but they always catch my eye with some know-it-all catch phrase.
I think you need to study your spirit.

[RickMatz]

Emily,

You may be able to relate to Hardcore Zen by Brad Warner. Get it used off of Amazon, and it won't cost much.

Warner is quite a guy in my opinion. He played bass in a punk band, went to Japan to work on monster movies, and while he was at it, became ordained as a zen priest. To his credit, he doesn't think he needs to go by a Japanese name to sound "authentic."

He's married, has a job, and has all the other distractions the rest of us do.

Here's his website:

http://homepage.mac.com/doubtboy/

You'll find a lot of articles there, to get a sense of his thinking, that you might want to take a look at before you go ahead and get the book.

Best Regards,

Rick

[Sgathak]

You hide who you are? and post statements like this? I try and ignore your posts, but they always catch my eye with some know-it-all catch phrase.
I think you need to study your spirit.

You apparently missed that your new sparring partner is banned from this site, and has been for some time.