Striking in the "Gentle Arts"

[Musubi Dojo]

I rarely have good ideas for a thread. This may or may not be an exception. :D

Wanted to poll the Jujutsu stylists here.

What style do you do and what sort of striking methods are you taught?

Primarily hands or feet? Knees or Elbows?
Strictly defensive in Nature?
Used only as a "loosening up Technique" to transition to a throw/lock/takedown?

Strikes primarily to vital points? Which targets are most common?

Are you taught strikes in a Karate type drill, punching back and forth across the mat?

Other Striking drills you do?

Kicking drills?

Do you strike from the ground?

Do you practice striking From standing to the ground?

Do you use karate "hip" in your strikes? ( or chinese fa-jing)

Please feel free to comment/ answer any or all of the above.

Cheers
c

[Mark Barlow]

Neither Akayama Ryu (my primary style) or the other two Jujutsu systems I've studied emphasize atemi. What strikes we do practice are mostly open-hand.

We do use a fair amount of knees, elbows and head strikes and since the majority of our techniques are mid to close range, we seldom kick but when we do, we avoid kicking above the knee.

While that may be the official Akayama Ryu view on striking and kicking, we have several students and yudansha who came to us from Karate, TKD or Gung Fu styles who incorporate what they've learned previously into our curriculum. As long as they can maintain the "flow" of their technique, I have no problem with that.

Mark

[Musubi Dojo]

Thanks for the reply Mark!

I'm guessing Akayama Ryu is a traditonal primarily Stand up style of Jujutsu? What were the other styles?

I studied an amagamation of jujutsu techniques my Instuctor called Aiki-jujutsu. Looking around I think he'd borrowed heavily fromn Small Circle Jujitsu and Toga Kore Ryu Ninjustsu. We did practice some karate style striking ( Reverse punchs, the standard blocks and cross decks) but focused far more on throwing grappling. We actually did some some semi contact kick punch kind of sparring but there wasn't much in the way of trasitioning that to a throw or take down.

I also studied with a Chokushin Aiki Jujutsu . They are very Aiki with little emphasis on striking. Most of their strikes are in response to an attack and a precursor to a throw/lock.

I've also studied some CMA and as a result my strikes no longer even resemble traditonal Japanese techniques.


Anyboday else wanna share?

Cheers
c

[Mark Barlow]

Akayama Ryu is a tradition based, albeit gendai art. Alex Marshall branched off from a small aikijujutsu system, Jikishinkage-Ryu (not the sword style, just the same name) and with over 60 years of experince in various Japanese grappling arts, high yudansha rank in Aikido, Judo, Shinin Ryu Jujutsu and Jikishinkage-Ryu, he founded Akayama Ryu.

We do have ground work but we emphasize escapes and counters more than finishing techniques. Our goal is to get back to our feet as quickly as possible yet we do practice atemi, shime waza and kansetsu waza from the ground as well as kneeling, seated and standing.

I consider Akayama Ryu both a practical and comprehensive self defense system. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I believe it is as effective as any martial art I've encountered.

Mark Barlow

[wab25]

If you haven't yet guessed I study Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Strikes are very much a part of this system, though it is not apparent at first. In fact, Okazaki chose the name Danzan for his system, out of respect for his Gung fu master, who taught him the art of "boxing with the intent to kill."

From white to brown belt, we study lots of throwing and grappling techniques. Many of these we take from a punch. The interesting part is that since we don't teach punching that early we usually get an unskilled punch. This way we get to practice our moves against an unskilled punch, the kind we are most likely to see on the street. We also often get people from other systems punching the way they learned. Again, it teaches us to respond and blend with what is given.

As we move up and learn more throws, and locks, strikes start to appear. That wrist lock is a strike with the other hand. That arm bar is a strike and a break. That knee I place behind your back becomes one of many knee strikes to different targets. This way we are learning to set up uke's body so it is already locked up, then strike a specific target to do lots of damage.

Blocks also become strikes, to the neck, collar bone, solar plexus. Then when we are brown belt we are officially introduced to strikes, both punching and kicking. We are taught specific targets, and directions, but we are free to use any moves we want to set up the strike. Once black belt is reached, striking becomes much more important. Then kicking and punching are really taught. Then the black belt puts the traditional punching kicking back into all the kata he learned on the way to black belt.

Once the two are put together, one sets up the other very nicely.

[Musubi Dojo]

All the Jujutsu I studied was stand up going into ground locks/finishes, but not ground grappling. We also did esacapes, chokes and joint locks from kneeling and prone but didn't feature the positioning and transitions. I do have a Judo background as well so I've transitioned in some ground fighting but I'm no expert. One of these days I'll go and see how the BJJ guys do it.

So what about kicks guys?

Mark you mentioned keeping them knee level or lower?

My instructor was all about kicking to the knees & shins with a low front snap, but also taught a lot of karate type kicks (round house, side, back, stomp) and some low Ninpo style style kicks to the groin, inner thigh and knees. Strangely enough I learned very similar kicks in Wing Chun.

Bill, is Danzan Ryu primarily a stand up style then?

Cheers
c

[wab25]

We do kicks as well. Front snap to knee, groin, solar plexus. Side kick to ribs or knee. Round house to solar plexus or head. We also like to use joint locks to move people into our kicks and punches.

Danzan Ryu is about 50 percent stand up and 50 percent grappling. Our philosophy is don't punch a puncher, don't kick a kicker and don't grapple a grappler. So, we start by teaching throws and then grappling/ground work and then finally introduce striking. This way, they all fit into the same thing. The grappling will set up the strike, the strike will set up throw.

[Mekugi]

Hey!
To the best of my knowledge (via Steve Delaney of Tokyo) Jikishinkage ryu is a "naginata" style that incorporates kusarigama and and the kaiken (wedding dagger). What you are talking about, perhaps, is called "Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu"...a rare style of kenjutsu in which kokyu'ho (breathing method), tanrenbo (5 foot long, 11 pound octagonal club used for conditioning), bokuto, kodachi and fukuro jinai are used.

The only other thing we could think of as it relates to possible unarmed combat is Jikishin ryu "judo" (not kodokan judo...same word, different thing altogether), which has been extinct well over 100 years.

Neither here nor there, just a point of possible interest.

-Russ



...a small aikijujutsu system, Jikishinkage-Ryu (not the sword style, just the same name)

[Mark Barlow]

The Jikishinkage Ryu I studied is taught by the Takikawa family. It has no relationship to the kenjutsu or naginata system but can trace its history to the 1600s. As I mentioned earlier, it's a small family system and I don't know of any dojo teaching it now. The Ryu's curriculum included aikijujutsu, sojutsu, kenjutsu, tantojutsu and other bugei. I studied with and was ranked by Toshiaiki Takikawa who is the youngest son of the current head. Toshi currently lives in Georgia but has retired from teaching. He taught my sensei, Alex Marshall, Richard Worthington and myself for several years beginning in the late '70s.

Toshi is a board member of the United States Jujitsu Federation and was active in Judo and Aikido circles in Oklahoma for close to 20 years. While I've never met his father, I was very impressed with Toshi's ability and knowledge.
Any further inquiries into the system should be made to him as I am only Sandan and would no doubt make mistakes in relating the history and complete curriculum of the style.

Mark Barlow

[Mekugi]

Is it still in existence in Japan?


The Jikishinkage Ryu I studied is taught by the Takikawa family. It has no relationship to the kenjutsu or naginata system but can trace its history to the 1600s. As I mentioned earlier, it's a small family system and I don't know of any dojo teaching it now. The Ryu's curriculum included aikijujutsu, sojutsu, kenjutsu, tantojutsu and other bugei. I studied with and was ranked by Toshiaiki Takikawa who is the youngest son of the current head. Toshi currently lives in Georgia but has retired from teaching. He taught my sensei, Alex Marshall, Richard Worthington and myself for several years beginning in the late '70s.
Mark Barlow

[Mark Barlow]

Again, for the most up to date info, it would be best to contact Toshi Takikawa. My understanding is that family members and friends were still being taught in Japan.

The more I try to explain this, the more it sounds like typical "I was trained in secret by invisible monks during clandestine visits to Tibet" BS so I'm going to stop here. Toshi never made any wild claims nor sought publicity. He's a real person with a verifiable history. If you'd like to know more, please contact him through the USJJF. Since he has retired, I would not be comfortable giving out his email or phone number. When you speak to him, ask about the bear hunts......

Mark

[Mekugi]

OK!

If you would do me a favor, could you please tell him that I will be trying to contact him? It would shorten the process methinks, if you could give him my contact info (russ@sosuishitsuryu.com) that would be of help!

Much appreciated!



If you'd like to know more, please contact him through the USJJF. Since he has retired, I would not be comfortable giving out his email or phone number. When you speak to him, ask about the bear hunts......

Mark

[Mekugi]

Sorry about that drift, back to regularily scheduled posting....


What style do you do and what sort of striking methods are you taught?
For "jujutsu", I primarily study Sosuishiryu. Striking is limited in the conventional sense. I mean, there are strikes however they are not a "bright rainbow-pack" to pick from and are usually rather nasty.


Primarily hands or feet? Knees or Elbows?
Strictly defensive in Nature?
Used only as a "loosening up Technique" to transition to a throw/lock/takedown?
That's a lot to think about, so before my head starts smoking and the fire alarm goes off, Hands and feet, kinda like a knee if your legs are too long to kick properly in some instances. Defend, soften and control is the old maxim. Usually a transition to another technique.


Strikes primarily to vital points? Which targets are most common?

Yeppers! Hit em where it hurts. If I tell you secret punching spots, you will have to carve out your eyes with a dull carrot. Sorry, no one wants to see vegitable mutilation. ;)


Are you taught strikes in a Karate type drill, punching back and forth across the mat?
Kinda, paired drills- not like you see in karate.


Other Striking drills you do?
I usually bang my head against the wall, as to render myself unconscious for "fun". Boy, I need a life. Seriously, we have limited kihon. One could possibly make the drills more elaborate, however the K.I.S.S principle is usually adhered to for continuity.


Kicking drills?
Totally lacking.


Do you strike from the ground? Not formally, but as a kind of "look, watch out for this type of thing" feel.


Do you practice striking From standing to the ground? Kinda, mostly from a "kneeling" postion and with a sword most of the time. The kempo (senchusho) can replace the sword in most instances.


Do you use karate "hip" in your strikes? ( or chinese fa-jing)
Only in soup :p.

Always,

Russ

[Ashura]

Hi everybody,

I study Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu and we use different kinds of atemi:

all tsuki are studied from oi tsuki to naname tsuki. Head butt are also used but more as a defensive move (when grabbed from the rear for exemple).

We also study three keri: mae geri, yoko geri and ushiro geri, mawashi geri or kakato geri are not a part of our system anf thus if someono wants to practice them he has to do it on it's own.

Otherwise, elbows and knees are also used to help unbalancing your opponent prior a nage waza or kansetsu waza.

We also strike at each others during the Junbi Taiso, we punch and kick to the stomach and kick in the legs to strengthen them and to make you "feel " what kind of damages a real punch can make. It looks like the famous kote kitae exercices in Okinawan Karate.

Usually, the strikes are used in response to an attack, in a go no sen fashion but you are allowed to strike before your opponent starts attacking you (sen sen no sen). In Daito-Ryu the last strike is given once your opponent is on the ground pinned down by your knee or something else.

Daito-Ryu has amazing pinning techniques that allow you to free your arms to strike easily your opponent.

Hope this helps you.

[kenkyusha]

I rarely have good ideas for a thread. This may or may not be an exception. :D

Wanted to poll the Jujutsu stylists here.

What style do you do and what sort of striking methods are you taught?

Primarily hands or feet? Knees or Elbows?
The hands and elbows mostly. Some elbows. Knees seem to come into play as an, "ah man, the terminus of my waza dropped you onto that... sorry" (except, of course for suwariwaza.)


Strictly defensive in Nature?
Used only as a "loosening up Technique" to transition to a throw/lock/takedown?
Both. There are the standard 'loosening' things, but also some finishing stuff(for the suhada section, most of it seems to be proxy for kodachi).


Strikes primarily to vital points? Which targets are most common?
Again, standard stuff, nerve plexuseseseseseses (how does one pluralize that BTW?).


Are you taught strikes in a Karate type drill, punching back and forth across the mat?
No


Other Striking drills you do?

Kicking drills?
Only 3, mae, yoko and ushiro (except for in suwari).


Do you strike from the ground?
Only as a means to draw a weapon.


Do you practice striking From standing to the ground?
Yes, see above.


Do you use karate "hip" in your strikes? ( or chinese fa-jing)
It probably looks more like fa-jing, but is the same power generation mechanic used for everything taijutsu and buki.

Be well,
Jigme