View Full Version : Wasnt Impress with Steven Lopez (Joseph Santarose)
Im not impress with the WTF style at all. I think the WTF have taken the ART out of Martial Arts, it should be called a sport. I mean if u notice, why wont they let the ITF in the Olympics? I think cause they would killed the WTF. I've watched Lopez's fight, seen him fight in person, met him, and honestly not impress. Yeah he has an advantage.... he freaking tall to be in the Batam weight. (i think thats what he in). He like 6'3" or something like that. Getting back to the point, all these WTF fighters, they only do one kick, over and over and over. (diangle kick or Roundhouse kick), ok maybe two or three (whip kick and back kick) but thats it. I think they should let ITF in the Olympic, and show them what TKD is really about.
John Bennett
10-08-2004, 16:02
Please don't forget to put you name in all your posts per the forum rules.
Thanks.
TKDDragon
10-08-2004, 20:25
Yes I totally agree with you utkdjoe as a fellow ITF Chang Hon practicioner.
The WTF is nothing more than a sad excuse of TKD filled with thousands of McDojos all over the world!
I mean what kind of Taekwondo style(The art of hand and foot fighting) doesn't allow you to use hand techniques in sparring!!??
This is the reason why TKD gets bashed all over because of this stupid WTF/McDojo crap that you see everywhere!
The WTF doesn't even deserve to be called a martial art, its nothing but a martial sport...Pathetic...
Then you've got this Steven Lopez guy...lol One of our yellow belts could take him... :rolleyes:
If only people in other arts knew about the ITF then TKD wouldn't be doubted in real self-defense situations becuase it hasn't ever let me down.
Not with our complete combination boxing hand techniques, taek kyon kicks, grappling, ground fighting, and wrist/ joint locks truly makes the ITF the true art of TKD developed by the late General Choi Hong Hi.
:( Sorry for my rant but I'm just sick and tired of going to all of these different martial art forums/boards and seeing TKD get bashed because of people like Steven Lopez and the WTF.
Without getting into the whole ITF>WTF argument. I'd like to respond to UTKDjoe's first post.
Basicly it comes down to this. In Olympic TKD, if you make a mistake, you will get scored upon. How do you increase your chances of making a mistake? Attacking. It is far eaiser to be defensive than offensive in a point oriented match. Thats why 90% of the kicks used are roundhouses. They're generally the fastest most effective kick. Why take the extra time doing a fancy kick when a far more basic kick will do the same thing? (Score a point)
tkdcanada
10-09-2004, 08:52
TKDDragon,
It would be much more productive if you would keep your comments as factual as possible and make sure you can back them up with concrete knowledge. What you are saying is not necessarily fact and at Budoseek! we strongly discourage bashing. That's not to say you can't speak your mind, but just be prepared to back it up.
"WTF is nothing more than a sad excuse for TKD....."
"...stupid WTF/McDojo crap that you see everywhere"
"The WTF doesn't even deserve to be called a martial art, it's nothing but a martial sport, pathetic."
These comments are very subjective and unfair. They are global comments which are not necessarily true across the board. True, there is a lot of this in WTF, but there are still many very good and effective WTF schools with very good fighters in them.
Yup...that is a pretty blanket statement there and a pretty bold one. I am definitely not a fan of Olympic style sparring and I am a practicioner of ITF TKD not WTF, but that being said...I totally respect the atheletes and what they do. My guess is that Steven Lopez is probably quite atheletic and skilled and could probably do well in most tournament situations. So, let's not bash the man. But as far as seeing traditional ITF TKD at the Olympics...that would be sweet :) peace
Just to give a heads up.
I just came back from a USTU referee seminar and I just learned that they dropped the Kukkiwon Dan requirement for their competitions.
Any ITFers that want to try out for the Olympic team can now.
First of all, let's all tone-down on the bashing of Steven Lopez. Like him or not, he's done a lot for Taekwondo in America, and deserves some recognition/gratitude for that.
Then you've got this Steven Lopez guy...lol One of our yellow belts could take him...
Stop right there. If you had ANY idea about the level of dedication and training that it takes to get to the Olympics, you would reconsider that statement.
The truth is, that in an olympic ring, with olympic judges, under WTF rules, Steven Lopez would smoke every single one of us. Some of us might even end-up on a stretcher.
The worst thing that Steven Lopez has ever done, was sign-on with McDonald's to do the whole "Trains in Fry-Kwon-Do" and "Has a Black Belt in Hunger" thing. That was just embarassing.
But really...can you blame him? If McDonald's offered any of you a pile of money to put you on all of their carry-out bags, would you turn that down?
I mean if u notice, why wont they let the ITF in the Olympics? I think cause they would killed the WTF.
This was a political decision. The WTF did not want to recongize the ITF or its competitors, and wanted a monopoly on the governing body (for the Olympics) to try to force the ITF out of existence. Kind of a "if you want to compete for the Olympic team, you gotta join us"- type of attitude.
Just my experience, but I've seen MUCH better fighters come from WTF schools than ITF. Besides, look at how Olympic style is judged (lack of punches that are scored in-favor of kicks). I'll be suprised if an ITF competitor ever makes it past the US Nationals (although I'd love to see the WTF people get their hats fed to them at their own game).
just came back from a USTU referee seminar and I just learned that they dropped the Kukkiwon Dan requirement for their competitions.
Apparantly, this has since changed. (Good to hear!)
That being said, it should be noted that Steven Lopez has proven that Olympic Taekwondo is a game with rules. And if you know the rules well-enough, you can win the game. This is why the USTU (as do many other Taekwondo and Sport Karate orgs) refers to their competitors as "players" instead of "fighters".
I have his 2000 Gold Medal match on tape (didn't see the 2004 match). His Korean opponent is constantly coming at him, but getting adorned with penalties, and getting tied-up by Lopez. Steven slips one point in, and then plays defense for the entire remainder of the match. It really wasn't that exciting. Like I said, it's a game with rules.
Personally, I have Black Belts in both ITF and WTF, and I don't associate with either one anymore. The ITF people (in my area) are too cautious to fight hard, and the WTF people are too focused on Olympic sparring. That, and after reading about the 2001 USTU Junior Olympics and seeing that they had a division for 8-year-old 3rd Dans :eek: made me vow NEVER to renew my USTU membership.
Anyway, points:
-Steven Lopez (love him or hate him) has accomplished a lot for Taekwondo, is a recognized Black Belt (and should be respected as such), and does not deserve to be publicly bashed on this or any other board.
-Olympic TKD does not even remotely resemble a realistic fight, and thus, should not be compared to one.
-ITF Taekwondo (while it may be popular on this board) is not by any means the majority (in America, or the world, for that matter), and is itself not without problems or imperfections as a style/organization, either.
Thank you,
Then you've got this Steven Lopez guy...lol One of our yellow belts could take him... :rolleyes:
.
same here :D
-ITF Taekwondo (while it may be popular on this board) is not by any means the majority (in America, or the world, for that matter), and is itself not without problems or imperfections as a style/organization, either.
Thank you,
Nobody saying that, i just think that the ITF ppl could get a chance, glad to see that they do now. Another thing is that, TKD is all bout self defence and the ART. WTF has taken that out, they made it a sport. Steven Lopez may be good, but its not traditonal its lame fighting, he may have trained long and hard, but come on, do that in a street fight. Ppl are they street think TKD is a big joke, they want to fight us. Steven Lopez get in a street fight on the street, he will get killed. They only got one kick, they cant punch, my five year old sister can punch better then them. Look i know ppl going get offended, ppl going to cry but alot of my friends are WTFers and they suck at street fight, every single one of them got beat up, in a tourny they were good, won all the time. My point is that, what will people think of steven lopez if he gets his *** beat on the street think bout that? WTF takes out what TKD is truly is.
Look i know ppl going get offended, ppl going to cry .....
The only person crying on this board is you.
You're complaining that ITF isnt in the Olympics and that ITF'ers should be allowed in since they would "kill the WTF". Well guess what: the ITF, ATA and any other TKD groups are now allowed to try out for the olympic team. I would also bet some good money that no non-WTF players will make on the next US olympic team for the 2008 Olympics in Bejing.
My point is that, what will people think of steven lopez if he gets his *** beat on the street think bout that?
The problem with you're question is that majority of people in Olympic TKD DO NOT train for the street. They train for the competition floor. So the fact is that if Steven Lopez gets beat up in the street takes nothing away from his acomplisments in the Olympics. I havent heard anyone from the USTU say that Olympic TKD is superior over all other martial art forms in street fighting. Where do people get this notion from? Did Steven Lopez get a Gold medal in street fighting?
Unless there are major rule changes to Olympic TKD, the WTF will most likely continue to dominate the Olympic TKD. GET OVER IT!!!!!!
The only person crying on this board is you.
You're complaining that ITF isnt in the Olympics and that ITF'ers should be allowed in since they would "kill the WTF". Well guess what: the ITF, ATA and any other TKD groups are now allowed to try out for the olympic team. I would also bet some good money that no non-WTF players will make on the next US olympic team for the 2008 Olympics in Bejing.
The problem with you're question is that majority of people in Olympic TKD DO NOT train for the street. They train for the competition floor. So the fact is that if Steven Lopez gets beat up in the street takes nothing away from his acomplisments in the Olympics. I havent heard anyone from the USTU say that Olympic TKD is superior over all other martial art forms in street fighting. Where do people get this notion from? Did Steven Lopez get a Gold medal in street fighting?
Unless there are major rule changes to Olympic TKD, the WTF will most likely continue to dominate the Olympic TKD. GET OVER IT!!!!!!
Of course there will be nobody from the ITF in the olympic, why cause the olympic board are made up of WTFers, no im going to stop, alright we'll see. However i seriously doubt once the ITF get a good foundation in the USTU, its going be a different ball game. By the way im trianing for the Olympic, im going to most of the USTU tourny in the south. Look for my name. Im going to move up. Im going be somebody, just watch. Hell my goal. First ITFer in the Olympic, i will be the setting stone.
UrbanWarrior
10-13-2004, 23:44
Im not impress with the WTF style at all. I think the WTF have taken the ART out of Martial Arts, it should be called a sport. I mean if u notice, why wont they let the ITF in the Olympics? I think cause they would killed the WTF. I've watched Lopez's fight, seen him fight in person, met him, and honestly not impress. Yeah he has an advantage.... he freaking tall to be in the Batam weight. (i think thats what he in). He like 6'3" or something like that. Getting back to the point, all these WTF fighters, they only do one kick, over and over and over. (diangle kick or Roundhouse kick), ok maybe two or three (whip kick and back kick) but thats it. I think they should let ITF in the Olympic, and show them what TKD is really about.
oh goodie you saw lopez fight like ****. So what? Did he create WTF or something? Is he changing the way you see WTF?
1. WTF would kill ITF in olympic because according to you WTF only practices olympic style sparring.
2.How can you say ITF would kill WTF in olympic sparring? Maybe if olympic sparring favors ITF but for now olympic sparring favors WTF style.
3. lopez is TOO TALL to be in batam WEIGHT? height and weight is 2 totally different thing. I rather think hes smart for using his natural advantage.
4.If you think they only do 2-3 kicks only there is a reason behind it. And if you have a problem with it please show me how many kicks you can successfully execute in a olympic-skilled tournament.
Generally yes WTF's standard has gone way low. Reason? I can name 1 big one. 'Competition' In america or europe people have choices to which martial arts to pick while in countries like korea and china, you are expected to take their country's martial art which is limited and which leads to less competition.
But out here there are so many competitions against other nation's martial art such as from tae kwon do to karate to kung fu to muay and many many many many more. And since there are a lot of choices to pick from people wants to find the easiest, coolest, most efficient martial art. And old school tae kwon do is hard, not fancy at all so it doesn't get people's attention. So new generation of tae kwon do is coming with easy belt upgrade, fancy kicks and looks efficient in olympic sparring.
I don't blame the masters because they need to live too you know. Going all old school is just going to make him/her lose students here in a world with so many martial arts.
oh goodie you saw lopez fight like ****. So what? Did he create WTF or something? Is he changing the way you see WTF?
1. WTF would kill ITF in olympic because according to you WTF only practices olympic style sparring.
2.How can you say ITF would kill WTF in olympic sparring? Maybe if olympic sparring favors ITF but for now olympic sparring favors WTF style.
3. lopez is TOO TALL to be in batam WEIGHT? height and weight is 2 totally different thing. I rather think hes smart for using his natural advantage.
4.If you think they only do 2-3 kicks only there is a reason behind it. And if you have a problem with it please show me how many kicks you can successfully execute in a olympic-skilled tournament.
Generally yes WTF's standard has gone way low. Reason? I can name 1 big one. 'Competition' In america or europe people have choices to which martial arts to pick while in countries like korea and china, you are expected to take their country's martial art which is limited and which leads to less competition.
But out here there are so many competitions against other nation's martial art such as from tae kwon do to karate to kung fu to muay and many many many many more. And since there are a lot of choices to pick from people wants to find the easiest, coolest, most efficient martial art. And old school tae kwon do is hard, not fancy at all so it doesn't get people's attention. So new generation of tae kwon do is coming with easy belt upgrade, fancy kicks and looks efficient in olympic sparring.
I don't blame the masters because they need to live too you know. Going all old school is just going to make him/her lose students here in a world with so many martial arts.
well duh, an ITF fighter going lose against a WTF if everybody for him, but dont worry, im on a misson to change that. And kicks, well there many, ive never seen a WTF throw a sidekick, its a very fast kick, and very powerful, can break ribs and stuff. roundhouse kick, what can that break. its powerful but nowhere near as powerful. U can teach nebody to do a roundhouse the right way, but a side kick, thats takes a long time to get it right. Then Back kick, a lil more powerful then a side kick. Jump backkick even more powerful. Back kick is the best counter-attack for roundhouse kick, its all bout timing. I got a tape of a ITF and WTF fighter going at. I must say i was impress by the WTF fighter, but couldnt hang. He got kick in the face twice, why? Cause wtf dont keep their hands up. Sad. Punches can be powerful however the WTF dont really score them, and i think that sad. WTF got the quickness, but ITF got the Power.
Of course there will be nobody from the ITF in the olympic, why cause the olympic board are made up of WTFers, no im going to stop, alright we'll see. However i seriously doubt once the ITF get a good foundation in the USTU, its going be a different ball game. By the way im trianing for the Olympic, im going to most of the USTU tourny in the south. Look for my name. Im going to move up. Im going be somebody, just watch. Hell my goal. First ITFer in the Olympic, i will be the setting stone.
You make it sound like you're the first ITFer to try to get into the Olympics. I'm fairly certain there are some competent ITF members that also have a WTF Dan. If I'm right, why hasnt there been any ITF/WTFers on the Olympic Team that I've heard of? Its like the World Blackjack Champion saying hes going to win the World Poker Championships just because they use the same type of cards. They're two different styles of competition with different rules.
By the way, which USTU competition will you be competing in? What ever happened to going to USTU Senior Nationals in Colorado?
You make it sound like you're the first ITFer to try to get into the Olympics. I'm fairly certain there are some competent ITF members that also have a WTF Dan. If I'm right, why hasnt there been any ITF/WTFers on the Olympic Team that I've heard of? Its like the World Blackjack Champion saying hes going to win the World Poker Championships just because they use the same type of cards. They're two different styles of competition with different rules.
By the way, which USTU competition will you be competing in? What ever happened to going to USTU Senior Nationals in Colorado?
I was a day late to register. im going to the one in FT Worth, on the 23
Im just saying that im trying to be the first ITF to win Olympic, dont get me wrong im not saying i am, im saying that im trying
And kicks, well there many, ive never seen a WTF throw a sidekick, its a very fast kick, and very powerful, can break ribs and stuff. roundhouse kick, what can that break. its powerful but nowhere near as powerful.
When was Olympic TKD about "breaking ribs and stuff"? Last time I checked the rule book, it was about scoring points. Whats the most efficient kick to score points? Oh, thats right. A roundhouse kick. If you want to break people's ribs in a competition, I suggest you try cage fighting or something. See how long that lasts.
Back kick is the best counter-attack for roundhouse kick, its all bout timing.
True, but its more complicated than that. What you might think is a rear leg roundhouse kick could just be a well practiced fake to make you think that. By the time you realise this it would be to late and you would have already commited yourself to a counterattack that would make yourself vulnerable.
WTF got the quickness, but ITF got the Power.
Again, what matters more in a Olympic TKD match? I watched Lopez's Gold medal match, and if I remember correctly he scored his 2 points from a front leg roundhouse that was far from powerfull. But it got the job done.
When was Olympic TKD about "breaking ribs and stuff"? Last time I checked the rule book, it was about scoring points. Whats the most efficient kick to score points? Oh, thats right. A roundhouse kick. If you want to break people's ribs in a competition, I suggest you try cage fighting or something. See how long that lasts.
True, but its more complicated than that. What you might think is a rear leg roundhouse kick could just be a well practiced fake to make you think that. By the time you realise this it would be to late and you would have already commited yourself to a counterattack that would make yourself vulnerable.
Again, what matters more in a Olympic TKD match? I watched Lopez's Gold medal match, and if I remember correctly he scored his 2 points from a front leg roundhouse that was far from powerfull. But it got the job done.
Did u see the Heavy weight fight. he threw a powerful kick knock the guy out. More ppl talk bout that fight more then steven's cause his was boring. Also if i try front foot side kick i can stop u, also knock u down if ur in the middle of a kick. If im not mistaken its a point if u hit them hard enough, oh wait another point if u knock them down. he hits me with a roundhouse kick, one pt, i hit him with a side kick he falls down, two point. You are right bout the back kick, because the best counter - kick is roundhouse. so they kinda even each other out.
Im just saying that im trying to be the first ITF to win Olympic, dont get me wrong im not saying i am, im saying that im trying
See, now you're being more accurate in your statements. Until you, or any other ITFer starts winning "major" USTU touraments left and right. It would just be incorrect to say outright "ITF is better than WTF" in the Olympic sparring.
I'm very glad to see someone from the ITF having aspirations to be in the Olympics. Just dont jump the gun with your statements before your first major USTU tournament.
See, now you're being more accurate in your statements. Until you, or any other ITFer starts winning "major" USTU touraments left and right. It would just be incorrect to say outright "ITF is better than WTF" in the Olympic sparring.
I'm very glad to see someone from the ITF having aspirations to be in the Olympics. Just dont jump the gun with your statements before your first major USTU tournament.
Okay, well lets see how we do shall we. Some expecting me to lose, some expecting me to win. Two weeks, we will find out how well i do. the 23rd.
Its start here, im on a journey, to be in the Olympic, to prove that the ITF can win. I'm going to be the setting stone. Its ur choice, u can support me or not, i dont really care. But remember the name is JOSEPH SANTAROSE
Did u see the Heavy weight fight. he threw a powerful kick knock the guy out. More ppl talk bout that fight more then steven's cause his was boring. Also if i try front foot side kick i can stop u, also knock u down if ur in the middle of a kick. If im not mistaken its a point if u hit them hard enough, oh wait another point if u knock them down. he hits me with a roundhouse kick, one pt, i hit him with a side kick he falls down, two point. You are right bout the back kick, because the best counter - kick is roundhouse. so they kinda even each other out.
Like we talked about before. Speed is king. Like you said, all they use in the Olympics is a roundhouse. Because its the fastest and the most safest kick to use. A sidekick is way to slow. If it wasnt, wouldnt you think they would use it more often? I mean, these guys train at least 4 hours a DAYfor YEARS. If the sidekick was more efficient, I'd think they'd use it.
You're right about the points though. You will score an extra point if you hit them with enough force to knock them down and if they recieve a standing 8 count.
Like we talked about before. Speed is king. Like you said, all they use in the Olympics is a roundhouse. Because its the fastest and the most safest kick to use. A sidekick is way to slow. If it wasnt, wouldnt you think they would use it more often? I mean, these guys train at least 4 hours a DAYfor YEARS. If the sidekick was more efficient, I'd think they'd use it.
You're right about the points though. You will score an extra point if you hit them with enough force to knock them down and if they recieve a standing 8 count.
That makes sense, bout the sidekick, but im still going to try to use it at the tourny, u see i can fight WTF, ive trained WTF. When i fight im going to use mostly ITF to hit them hard. WTF to score point. I think, i know ive made some comments in the past, but i think if u put the two together, it would be a more intresting and challenging fight. I mean try it for urself. Try ITF for bout 6 months to a year. Put the two together and see what u come up with. Honestly they are both useful, for thier reason.
BTW, If the tournament you're talking about is the 24th Annual Fort Worth International Taekwondo Championship. It's NOT a USTU tournament. Its a Tekno Circut one. It still should have some good WTF competitors for you though.
Try ITF for bout 6 months to a year.
I plan on it. Unforturnatly, I'm very busy with college and teaching at my current school. After I graduate from college I want to try a variety of different styles. Jujitsu, Karate, MMA, ITF TKD, etc....
BTW, If the tournament you're talking about is the 24th Annual Fort Worth International Taekwondo Championship. It's NOT a USTU tournament. Its a Tekno Circut one. It still should have some good WTF competitors for you though.
hmmm i thought it was a USTU one, oh well already paid for, so im going.
Coming from an ITFer, I honestly don't believe ITFer "X" could be WTFer "X" in an olympic (WTF) style tournament. Some maybe yes...Most, probably not. Would an ITFer probably have the advantage in a fight or continuous sparring environment? I would say so. If as a TKDer (of any kind), you've ever sparred any karateka or boxer etc..you will quickly learn the value of a simple punch. I know I did. Anyways, I think everyone should relax. It seems to me that people aren't even aruging about the same thing on this thread. Does ITF style sparring better represent a realistic combat scenario? Yes. Would an WTF stylist, under WTF style rules (which are considerably different from ITF), most likely be more effective? Yes, of course. It's *what* he does. Anyways, just seems liek we're all bashing our heads into the wall and we're not even on the same specific topic.
PS: Good luck in the tournament Joseph. I'm sure everyone, myself included, wishes you the best of luck in your noble endeavors.
My point is that, what will people think of steven lopez if he gets his *** beat on the street think bout that?
And I've already said that Olympic Style Sparring doesn't even remotely resemble a street encounter. I think one thing that we all agree on [about Olympic Style Sparring] is its lack of street-applicability. This is a dead issue. Stop comparing the two together.
Anyways, just seems liek we're all bashing our heads into the wall and we're not even on the same specific topic.
Exactly. This thread has until the end of the day to go somewhere productive, or it will be closed.
As long as I've got my Moderator hat on, I also thought that I'd remind everyone of Budoseek! rule #6 called KEEP IT CLEAN. I've noticed many asterisks throughout this thread, indicating that expletives were used. There are many ways to get your point across much more intelligently than what is being done here. First and last warning...CLEAN IT UP.
Also Joe, in many of your posts you have been in violation of Budoseek! rule #10 which clearly states that the use of internet slang/shorthand is prohibited on this board. I'm not saying that we all have to be stenographers and type perfectly, but typing out the word "you" is only two leading characters different from what you are doing now. Internet slang/shorthand might be cool on a Power Rangers or Yu-gi-oh board, but it really doesn't have a place among educated martial arts professionals.
Thank you,
UrbanWarrior
10-14-2004, 14:26
well duh, an ITF fighter going lose against a WTF if everybody for him, but dont worry, im on a misson to change that. And kicks, well there many, ive never seen a WTF throw a sidekick, its a very fast kick, and very powerful, can break ribs and stuff. roundhouse kick, what can that break. its powerful but nowhere near as powerful. U can teach nebody to do a roundhouse the right way, but a side kick, thats takes a long time to get it right. Then Back kick, a lil more powerful then a side kick. Jump backkick even more powerful. Back kick is the best counter-attack for roundhouse kick, its all bout timing.
http://www.kungfucinema.com/people/hwang_jang_lee.htm
"During his tour of duty as a martial arts instructor in Vietnam he was challenged by a south Vietnamese knife expert. The challenge was over 30 seconds later. His opponent lay dead, killed by a well executed round kick to the head by Hwang. "
what can roundhouse break?
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