Is there a difference?

[Shorin-ryu Diciple]

just wondering. It turns out I take Matsubaiashi Shorin Ryu instead of Koiobaiashi? Is there a gigantic difference between the styles, I heard the guy who started Koiobaiashi mispelt the kanji?

[TonyU]

Zachary,
Get youself a copy of Okinawan Karate, Teachers, styles and secret techniques by Mark Bishop. Preferably the second edition.
It's a very good book on the history and lineage of Okinawan karate.
Once you read it you'll understand the difference between the two and others.

[Nyuck3x]

Matsu-bayashi = Pine Forest
Sho-bayashi = Young Forest
Ko-bayashi = Small Forest

Matsubayashi-ryu was created by Nagamine Sensei.
Influenced by Kyan, it has more Tomari-te qualities than the others.

Shobayashi-ryu is also Kyan derived but with fewer influences.
Especially through the Shimaburuku Zempo line.

Kobayashi-ryu is the lineage from Itosu to Chibana (the guy you referred to)
who chose to use the character for Small instead of Young to differenciate
it from the others.

There are other schools under the flag of Shorin-ryu but
these are the three generalizations.

Differences are, M/B and S/B uses shikodachi and K/B doesn't.
The syllabus for all three is different. They all use the Pinans and
Naihanchi, but thier Passai and Kusanku are all different.

Just a quick overview. If you get a chance,
do what Toney said.

Here are some links for more info:
www.matsubayashi-ryu.com for Matsubayashi
www.ihadojo.com for Kobayashi
www.seibukan.org for Shobayashi

Peace

[TimoS]

Shobayashi-ryu is also Kyan derived but with fewer influences.
Especially through the Shimaburuku Zempo line.


Not quite. You've got the wrong Shimabukuro there. Shobayashi is Eizo Shimabukuro and Zempo Shimabukuro is Seibukan, which I believe can also be read as Sukunaihayashi. There are so many Shimabukuros in Kyan lineage that it is easy to get confused.

Of the differences/characteristics I can't say anything, because I don't practise any of those :)

[Steven Malanoski]

A reason for difference in ShoBayashi ShoRin is that Shimabuku Eizo Sensei was a student of Kyan Chotoku, Motobu Choki, and Miyagi Chojun Sensei's, as well as his brother IsShin Ryu founder Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei. So there are influences from all of the above.

At ShoDan level, Shimabuku Sensei teaches SanChin Kata. Or at least he did when I was living in Okinawa.

[Nyuck3x]

I'm aware that Seibukan & Sukunaihayashi can be read as the same but
if you look at the kanji, they use the characters for Young Forest
just like Shaolin. (At least that's how they printed it on my certificate).
Seibukan is the name of the dojo. It means Holy arts school.
The system is still Shorin-ryu/Shobayashi-ryu.

Although I only met Shimabukuro Zenpo only once, it was my
understanding that his father learned directly from Kyan
with no other influences. (Exeption being the 5 Pinans he
learned from Nakama Sensei from Kobayashi, an old family friend.)

Jussi, if you are out there, maybe you can
shed some light on the subject?

Matsubayashi has influences from Kyan, Motobu and Arakaki.

They are all Shuri-te and I have enjoyed participating in all three
styles in the past.

Peace

[TimoS]

I'm aware that Seibukan & Sukunaihayashi can be read as the same but if you look at the kanji, they use the characters for Young Forest just like Shaolin. (At least that's how they printed it on my certificate). Seibukan is the name of the dojo. It means Holy arts school. The system is still Shorin-ryu/Shobayashi-ryu.

Yes, I guess that is also true, I tried very quickly to search for the kanji for Shobayashi ryu, but couldn't find them. Seibukan, I believe, uses the same kanji for Shaolin that the style I'm practising, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan, does (not surprising, as Renshinkan is based quite heavily on Seibukan). However, if you do a search for Shobayashi, you'll get pages about Eizo Shimabukuro, which is why I said that Shobayashi and Seibukan are not the same, although their kanji can apparently be read the same way.

I guess Jussi would know :)

[Jussi Häkkinen]

I'm sorry that it took this long, lads. I actually had skimmed through this thread earlier and then - simply - forgot to answer to it. I believe that you've found out this already, but I'll still explain it a bit.


Well, the situation isn't very complex.

There are some ways to write "Shorin". Kyan's lineage, as already stated, uses the same way as Shaolin uses to write its name.


Let's examine the word "shorin", written that way.

First kanji is "sho", which can be also pronounced as "sukunai".

Second kanji is "rin", which can also be pronounced as "hayashi", which, when used in conjunction with an other word, transforms into "-bayashi".

These can be used in different ways. For example, Eizo Shimabukuro tends to use the "shobayashi" when referring to his style. Seibukan uses the "sukunai hayashi" -form.


The writing style is same, as well as the meaning. The chosen pronounciation for both is usually "shorin", but occasionally the "shobayashi" or "sukunai hayashi" -pronounciations are used, especially when specifying the writing form ("shorin" can be written in several different ways. "Sukunai hayashi" specifies the very kanji used in "sho").


Also, "shorin" (shaolin) and "shorinji" (shaolin-tzu, shaolin temple) are both been commonly in use when referring to shaolin monastery. Eventually, though, some schools (kan) decided to stick to either "shorin" (such as Seibukan, which had used the "shorinji" as well before that) or "shorinji" (Kyudokan - Nakazato Joen's dojo, Renshinkan - Isamu Tamotsu's dojo).


So, simplifiedly, there are "main lodes" (shorin) that divide to some lesser lodes (different ways of writing "shorin", usually due to different teacher lineages). These lesser lodes divide to schools - "kan", such as "Seibukan" (holy art school).


I also have to express my doubt about Eizo Shimabukuro being a student of Kyan Chotoku. He's a bit too young to be Kyan's student and his karate is very clearly similar to his older brother's (Tatsuo Himabukuro's, who was a Kyan's student) Isshin-ryu. My personal belief is that Eizo Shimabukuro was not a student of Kyan, but learned his karate from his older brother.
This, however, doesn't diminish the value of his karate for a single bit.