View Full Version : Please don't read if you are insincere...
Estrella
10-28-2004, 17:35
I thought this would be the best forum to put this in- if you read on, you'll realise why. I'm a bit shaken up after today's lesson and need to relieve some feelings, so here goes. And no sniggering or laughing because I'm being as open as possible here- I realise that men do read this forum, so try and be sincere, please.
Earlier I got paired up with this new guy in our class and it was the first martial arts lesson he'd been to. We were working on grabs and the first one we did was the chest grab. This guy put his hands on my shirt right above my breasts and grabbed my bra straps, saying "Oh, something to hold on to!" or something to that effect. The thing that scared me was the fact that he sounded really happy about it. He had hold of some of the fabric, too, so his hands were literally right on top of my bust, and he began shaking me to "make it more realistic".
I instinctively jumped backwards the first time this happened and slapped his arm, I was more inclined to go for his face though. He let go when I pretended I didn't understand the technique, and I called an instructor over to show us again; I was playing for time until we moved onto the next technique. This might have been a bit unfair on the new guy who was trying to learn it, but he'd just freaked me out. But as soon as the instructor left, he grabbed me again in the exact same place. I was too embarrassed to say or do anything this time, so for the rest of that technique, that was where he grabbed me.
This is where I am unsure whether I was starting to get paranoid about it. He may not have meant to alarm me by doing the above, and was probably just pratting around or genuinely misunderstood where to grab, but he'd still managed to scare me. It seemed that for the rest of the lesson, he was deliberately trying to take me by surprise so he could grab me and move in really close while pretending to do the technique because you have to move in quite close with grabs and when you're breaking and countering them. He certainly wasn't waiting until I was ready. Once, he moved in for a throw when I wasn't ready, and I landed very painfully after he slammed me down. He admitted he'd done it because I wasn't watching.
His attitude was like a school bully's- he acted like he'd managed to back me into a corner and that I was helpless, and that he was superior over any female, and I was just a naive little girl to him. This is where I am sure paranoia kicked in- I was expecting him to start raining blows down on me, I've felt that situation so many times before, but in different circumstances.
I'm really unsure whether he was serious or joking here, but we were doing groundwork too- this particular move was where you flip the attacker who is on top of you round so that he is on the ground instead of you, and you have the advantage. Upon feeling my weight, he gasped and swore. I couldn't tell whether he was joking or not, so I just laughed, even though inside, I was hurting like hell, because I'm at a healthy weight for my height and frame after working so hard to lose it this year- it won't go any lower.
Like I said, I don't know whether the initial scare caused these feelings and I was being paranoid, but it felt like I was just that helpless little girl being cornered by bullies again. I'm sorry if this has been really long, but thanks for reading. It's the first time I've ever felt threatened or scared while in that dojo, and I needed to get it off my chest. I'll probably get pounced on by all the moderators now for being too long-winded...
tkdcanada
10-28-2004, 17:51
You may be in the mark or he may have meant nothing by it. Either way, you were uncomfortable and you have a right to that. We don't know if he is much older than you. If he was, I can see that being a little more intimidating. If he is a peer of your own age, then it may be easier to directly tell him that you are not comfortable with his actions. From what you say, he seemed to be enjoying 'getting a rise out of you.' That's wrong and if you feel comfortable you should tell him that that's how he made you feel. If not, tell your instructor and he will hopefully agree to keep an eye out for similar behaviour to verify whether you pegged the guy properly. Although it usually is not an issue, members of the opposite sex should always remain sensitive to gender issues as a courtesy. Good luck.
.... Upon feeling my weight, he gasped and swore. I couldn't tell whether he was joking or not, so I just laughed, even though inside, I was hurting like hell, because I'm at a healthy weight for my height and frame after working so hard to lose it this year- it won't go any lower.
Like I said, I don't know whether the initial scare caused these feelings and I was being paranoid, but it felt like I was just that helpless little girl being cornered by bullies again. I'm sorry if this has been really long, but thanks for reading. It's the first time I've ever felt threatened or scared while in that dojo, and I needed to get it off my chest. I'll probably get pounced on by all the moderators now for being too long-winded...
The guy is a jerk. Don't let his lack of proper cultivation bother you. Too bad your school is across the ocean, else many of us would love to go over to make a pretzel our of him.
BTW, you come to the right place to share. Not only no one will pounce on you, many of the wise instructors here will be able to offer good counsel
You came to the right place to share. Not only no one will pounce on you, many of the wise instructors here will be able to offer good counselKen's right about that.
A few ideas for you:
1) If he grabs your boob, you can say, "grab here" and offer the lappel, for example. Be firm and clear and don't get your knickers in a twist (not at first).
2) If he tries to throw you while you're not looking, well, that's the equivilant of a sucker punch. Flat out tell him to knock it off, to train when you're training, so to speak, and not to train when you're not (did that make sense?) Your coach should point out that this can be extremenly dangerous, too.
3) Your weight - Jeeze, don't worry about it. There's a way of moving such that you put a lot of weight on the person below you. It's deliberate and effective. Wrestlers deveop this sense. You might have been doing that - I can't say, I wasn't there. Also, if you're sagging your weight (as you should) then you'll take some of the wind out of him.
One of my submission wrestling trainers was about 160 lbs. I weighed at the time about 210. He was 50 lbs. lighter than I and yet when he got mount he could sag his weight down so much that he felt as if he were heavier than the 240+ lbs. guys. I used to say that he was the heaviest 160 lbs. I had yet encountered.
Also, some people simply say stupid things when nervous. That's life. He's being shown that he can be knocked around - and by a girl, at that! He's likely nervous and saying stupid things. Don't take it personally.
Please believe me, we guys can say painfully asinine things when nervous (especially around a woman!)
And if he's a full-time idiot, well, train with someone else.
And think of this as good psychological training for you. Maybe it will help keep you from overreacting and cracking someone's skull one day.
RA Miller
10-28-2004, 19:28
Lisa-
First, read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin Debecker. The very fact that it freaked you tells you something.
The fact that after he saw the effect, (and he did see the effect) he kept trying to get close and make more contact says something about him. You are dealing with a sexual predator. Hard to say at what stage- perhaps just now learning that he can get power by innappropriate contact, possibly more sinister and testing you as a victim.
Draw your lines now. Do not pretend to be polite. You asked for sincerity- if he touches you again, you must look him in the eye and say if he ever does it again you will hurt him... and YOU must be sincere.
It is your space, your body and if anyone- predator or jerk- attempts to violate that do not stand for it in any way.
Rory
John Bennett
10-28-2004, 20:51
Earlier I got paired up with this
new guyhttp://www.pfmt.org/fire/images/redflag.gif in our class and it was the first martial arts lesson he'd been to.
Red flag. In the future, avoid new students, especially on their *first* lesson.
They don't know training etiquette. They are unpredictable and often dangerous.
I don't know your rank or level of experience Lisa, but as an instructor, I *always* sparred first with new students. I could protect myself if things went badly. Only when I felt they were safe would I hand them off to one of my most experienced students.
Avoid new students. I've seen them lose composure and go nuts. As martial artists, we become so accustomed to "play fighting" and close personal contact, we sometime forget that new people can react strangely to it.
Usually your instincts are correct. If you feel uncomfortable then that's a red flag. You need to draw the line immediately. Guys like this know and seek out girls who won't stand up for themselves... he knows you feel like a victim and he continues to "assault" you in a way. Grab his hands and move them -be angry and sarcastic...let him know its not funny or "OK" -"Your suppose to grab here!" and show him. You said he was like a bully... and that is true...let him know you not the one to take his BS. I am sure that this guy has made many women feel like you did and its not OK. He's a jerk. Tell your instructor...
What Rory and John said. Good advice (and the rest, too).
Rory and Erik's responses are very good.
Beginners are usually nervous or as in this case, you a young female and he's a male, he may have something to prove.
Tell the instructor that you are unhappy with the situation and avoid working with this person again.
This guy should get the message and hopefully move on to a different dojo/club. If not, and the problem does escalate, your instructor will boot him out.
Many beginners are nervous, they do not know ettiqutte or what to do. As a more experienced person in your style than they are (even if you are a beginner yourself) you should dictate the practicing procedures and protocals.
Stop the other person when they try to improvise the technique or making it "more realistic". Say "that you are a beginner yourself" and are "trying to learn the technique", so "could we stick to doing the correct technique".
The Gift of Fear is a good book if you decide to read it, but I found its language too American for me and found it harder to digest. You may too, but good book all the same.
Estrella
10-29-2004, 07:19
Thanks for your help. I wasn't sure whether you'd be able to understand how I felt, because it's quite a difficult feeling to describe in a post. As for not pairing him again, don't worry, I won't. I just didn't have much choice that lesson because none of the people I usually pair with came in that night(It's a conspiracy! I'm gonna clobber the lot of them when they next come in! :mad: ). I just feel a bit angry at myself because before the lesson this girl asked if she could pair with me as the person she'd normally go with was also pairing someone different that night. She's nice as a friend, but it's hopeless practising with her because she giggles too much, which in turn sets me off, and I never learn anything. I said to her "We'll see" but if the oppurtunity arises, I'd rather pair someone else. I could have avoided all this.
As for telling an instructor, he's a friend of one of them. This guy is more likely to be believed than I am.Maybe he just went a little overboard in his attempts to make it more realistic. I think I just overreacted a bit, but it's annoying when you're trying to learn a relatively new technique and someone is using unneccessary force on you.
If he is, as Americans say, "a jerk" with any of the other females in the class, then I'm sure someone will complain, and I can offer back-up then. I'm not going to say anything yet, because, as you say, he may just have been very nervous about his first class, and this could have been a one-off. But, really, he's a middle-aged man- he should know better. Not even the 12 year old boys in that class touch me there.
And what's this "Gift of Fear" book about? I don't think I've ever seen that one around...
Well, I must be feeling better- I've talked your ears off again! Or, rather, read your eyes out... :)
Mandeigh Wells
10-29-2004, 07:32
well I have a slightly different slant on this and it does depend on how much confidence you can muster...but faced with a situation like this ( if I have judged him to be a prat more than just inexperienced)...my first reaction is to grab a handful of testicle and give it a bit of a twist...while making a big deal out of it so everyone can see whats happening.....acompanied by.... 'not particularly nice being groped is it' in a loud voice.
another angle on this was a situation with a large busted pal of mine ....In a push hands class she grabbed the blokes hands rubbed them on her chest and said right now you have touched them you don't need to be embarassed if you do it by accident and we can just get on with the exercise......poor guy was :o but I am sure he secretly was chuffed.
Estrella
10-29-2004, 07:38
Um, right.
I don't think I'll be trying any of those approaches anytime soon, thanks!
Mandeigh, you crack me up! You and your pal are so gutsy! I cannot imagine any of the uppity California women even considering that.
Estrella, if he really grabbed your boob as opposed to having grabbed the lappel and gotten your bra strap as well, then tell your coach. Even if they're friends, he still needs to know.
And this prat/jerk (pick your dialect) may just need a little time to get the etiquette sorted out. If it continues, he should go. If he's just getting the hang of things, don't worry. He's just clumsy and doesn't know what to do yet.
Keep your chin up - you'll be fine.
grr... if someone did something like that to me, i'd tell the sensei... or, if you're a vicious little beast like me, pay him back during sparring. your story reminds me of this boy who had a "habit" (i think) of punching girls on their *****. he even did this to the senseis' fiancee! he's about 12 years old but he shoulda known better. and because of his actions (at least i think so, i wasn't looking at the time) one of our girls kicked him really hard in the stomach and he slumped to the ground, clutching his middle and started crying. well, he HAD been told time and time again not to do it...
...If he is, as Americans say, "a jerk" with any of the other females in the class, then I'm sure someone will complain, and I can offer back-up then. .. Let other girls know about his "style" so they can watch out for it. You can nail him if he is a habitual offender.
RA Miller
10-29-2004, 18:37
Lisa-
Two things, and then I'll step out of this conversation.
He is a "middle aged man" and you are sixteen. There is nowhere in Western Civilization where groping you is appropriate and no middle aged man who doesn't know that. "Not knowing dojo ettiquette" is a weak excuse.
Second, if you get nothing else from martial arts, you must stand up for yourself. Do not wait for someone else to complain. Do not let your fear of being not believed stand in your way. YOUR safety is YOUR responsibility and this is a safety issue. Practice, right now, setting YOUR boundaries.
Never, ever ever allow yourself to practice a victim's mind-set.
Rory
Dennis Monk
10-29-2004, 19:28
I agree with basically all of the advice given thus far in this thread.
You are a young girl, and as such you you can't be expected to know how to handle every situation. You should stand up for yourself and your instructors do need to know that something took place that made you feel uncomfortable. If they are indifferent to you about it, you need to re-evaluate your choice of dojos. I feel that an instructor's prime responsibility is their students. If this was this guy's first MA lesson, he needs to be re-evaluated by the instructors themselves. Continued actions, such as this on his part, could result in major liability for the school owner/operator.
Now as far as,
my first reaction is to grab a handful of testicle and give it a bit of a twist..
goes, I can't speak for him but I can say that it would change my mind about how I acted in class.
Estrella
10-30-2004, 13:09
You're right, all of you. I do martial arts to stop myself being victimised again. I've decided that I'm going to keep an eye on him next lesson- if I see any more of this type of behaviour, then the instructors will hear about it, I promise you, because then I'll know it's not just nerves or inexperience, or me being paranoid. And no, I am not going to pair with him again- I'll just have to warn the other females about what he could be like if they end up paired with him.
I just read a thread on a couple of karate instructors who have just been sentenced for rape, sodomy and sexual abuse on children who, from what I gathered from the posted links, were younger than me. They shouldn't have had to go through that. The guy I'm on about isn't an instructor(obviously), but he seems to be the same type of person, and as there are 13 year old girls in this class, he needs to be watched. He could just be doing these trial lessons for the purpose of being near people who are around my age. I don't want anyone in that class to feel the way I did.
I'm not going to grab his testicles either- that'll make me look like the pervert, not him! No doubt it would be effective, though. ;)
tkdcanada
10-30-2004, 13:53
This is just my opinion so no one go nuts on me over this, but I would be careful of warning others against him or talking to others until you are ABSOLUTELY SURE that the situation is what you think. I'm not saying you did at all, but you have to keep the possibility in mind that you overreacted or misread him or that he is just not very commonsensical - that's not much of an excuse, but some people are that dumb. He may have gone home that night and said to himself: "Boy, I think I may have given the wrong impression" or "I may have gone overboard" or "Heck, why did I say/do that, that was stupid!"....and realized for himself to be more careful about how he acts and what he says. Seeing how he is a few times will give you a better indication of whether you were right and then you will obviously have a right to say something to him or instructors. But don't risk ruining his reputation prematurely if he doesn't deserve it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a softy or a pushover, I just believe in knowing all the facts before I react. THIS IS MEANT TO BE A CONSTRUCTIVE POST, SO PLEASE TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS. :bow:
Andrew Green
10-30-2004, 15:03
Sometimes I think that every club could benefit from a really big bodybuilder in a pink gi with a lisp and some very feminine body language to partner up with guys like this...
What he was doing was innappropriate, and he knew it. Put him in his place.
Or as mentioned already, avoid new guys until you are comfortable putting them in there place if they step out of line.
There is another solution. The all powerful wedgie :D
tkdcanada
10-30-2004, 15:29
How do you know he KNEW it? You weren't there. That's what I mean about jumping to conclusions. Have you ever heard what assuming does?
(Hint: A$$-U-ME)
redqueen290
10-30-2004, 16:31
New student or not they only guys who are grasping my bra, have my permission to do so. If I were you Id give him one warning about the *****, then i would procede to kick him so hard in the balls that he cries, and if your really mad, just use Mandeigh Wells technique, believe me, it works :wink2: .
Lets put it this way, I made the school "badass" bleed were no man was meant to bleed. You can do it to, its fun really once you get the hang of it. You see, when god made men more "physically" stronger than women, he decided to put that in, to level the playing field a bit. Dont worry it works every time.
Dennis Monk
10-30-2004, 18:39
New student or not they only guys who are grasping my bra, have my permission to do so. If I were you Id give him one warning about the *****, then i would procede to kick him so hard in the balls that he cries, and if your really mad, just use Mandeigh Wells technique, believe me, it works :wink2: .
Lets put it this way, I made the school "badass" bleed were no man was meant to bleed. You can do it to, its fun really once you get the hang of it. You see, when god made men more "physically" stronger than women, he decided to put that in, to level the playing field a bit. Dont worry it works every time.
Are you really only 14?
(asked respectfully of course... I don't want to bleed)
:D
Wow...
That sounds like a nasty situation. We had a similar one in the school where I train. We have a guy who most likely was the victim of many a bully when he was younger. Now approaching his thrities...he decided martial arts was the way to keep him from getting picked on while bolstering his confidence. After he had been with us for a while, he started to gain confidence in himself and what he could accomplish. That is when the problems started.
He started to throttle the girls in class during fighting sessions. One girl got kicked in the face and another was punched in the ribs so hard she almost threw up. But when he faced any of the men...it was back to being MR. timid. Our instructor talked to him privately about it but after a month he was back to his old tricks again. So we politely sat him down and told him that this kind of behavior wasn't going to be tolerated and eventually he was going to end up in trouble over it. That was when my girlfriend got off of the night shift and started to train with us regularly again. He fought with her during a session and of course hit harder than he was supposed to. She cautioned him that if he fought hard so would she. He poped her one more time so she hit him so hard it knocked him down and he spent the rest of the class hovering in a corner trying to get his wind back. She then told him that his behavior was wrong and if it continued she would send him home a bloody mess. For the time being he is only allowed to fight with my girlfriend when he is looking for a match against the other gender. When he understands that bullies of any type will not be tollerated then maybe he will get another shot with others...
Point is this...No one has the right to make you feel uncomfortable in a class room enviornment. 16 or 60...You have the right to say, "I don't like this...cut it out." If the instructor is not on board with this sentiment and you like training there... get the rest of the students on board with you... and then make the instrcutor and this knothead see your point.
One request though... keep us posted as to what happens...
Regards...
Walt
Estrella,
With all this good advice I hope that it will help you make the right decision and help you find the strength to ensure this does not happen to you again. I am not trying to sound feminist here or anything, but these kinds of situations happen all of the time to women of all ages and in all situations. They leave us doubting whether we are being over reactive or not and we worry about seeming somewhat hysterical about a situation. My feelings about all of these situations is simple... if I am uncomfortable I need to do something about it. They are my feelings and no one can tell me whether I should or shouldn't feel them. Take the advice given here to you and ensure that you do not allow this to happen to you again. If all else fails, follow Mandeigh's advice ;)
Andrew Green
10-31-2004, 01:12
How do you know he KNEW it? You weren't there. That's what I mean about jumping to conclusions. Have you ever heard what assuming does?
(Hint: A$$-U-ME)
When is it EVER acceptable to grab a female by the bra straps? And then make a joke about it?
It is advisable to be prudent and not to ruin someone's reputation without justification. In this particular case, however, the other girls should be advised of the situation. If he doesn't pull the same BS again, then his reputation would not be affected. He is an older adult, the others are teenagers. He should know better about proper conduct.
It is important to point out that Lisa Smith is not being second guessed.
Estrella
10-31-2004, 06:49
My next lesson isn't until Tuesday evening- I have until then to decide what to do about it. I'm unsure as to whether to warn the others or not- I don't want to scare them with something that might turn out to be a one-off and ruin this man's reputation. But if he continues with things like this, it will also scare the others, and I could have stopped it. The age range of females in my group is 13 to 40, but most are around my age, and from what I hear on the news, they're the most likely targets for this type of behaviour. And they're not stupid- they will know what is happening.
Some of the ways I've heard of dealing with this on here- :eek: !!!! Kick him in the balls, grab his testicles, make him bleed... You don't hold back do you? OK, perhaps you shouldn't in some situations, I admit, but if I try any of these actions, it'll result in me getting suspended, whether this guy was groping or not! But if he was, he'd get the boot, too, haha...
Auramaster
10-31-2004, 11:02
The key is assertiveness.
Being assertive can be difficult, because you have to find the balance between being too passive, and jumping to conclusions. If he does it, and it makes you uncomfortable, stand your ground, look him in the eye, and tell him not to do it. With the right look, this is a useful intimidation tactic. Don't let him smell fear, because he will use it against you. If it continues, refer to Miss Wells' tactic. There isn't a man alive who can stand a hard impact to the 'boys'.
The other thing is that if you feel that you can't approach your instructor about this, then you probably can't. MA instructors -the respectable and most learned ones- are generally very easy to get along with. I make a point of questioning any teacher about policies etc before I consider their class. You can pretty much 'sense' what the instructor is about by their mannerisms. Don't stay in a class where you cannot focus completely on your training because of being uncomfortable. Learning Martial Arts should not make ANYONE uncomfortable, and it is the instructor's duty to enforce this.
Hope this helps, I'm rooting for you. :)
tkdcanada
10-31-2004, 13:21
When is it EVER acceptable to grab a female by the bra straps? And then make a joke about it?
It's never acceptable but maybe he did it by accident then made a joke about it because he was embarrased. Very plausible.
And as Kenneth pointed out, Estrella is not being second guessed. My own stance is only that knee-jerk reactions do more harm than good. Of course, go after him with all you've got (by warning others, getting instructor involved, retaliating physically of he does it to you again) IF this behaviour starts to seem like it's his normal behaviour, but not before. Just my own opinion.
Estrella
10-31-2004, 13:34
You have a point, but it can be very hard to resist knee-jerk reactions when something like that happens.
I could have avoided all this.
Why are you blaming yourself for what he did? You did nothing wrong. Remember that.
I suggest you go straight to your instructors and tell them what happend. They'll know exactly what to do.
I second that motion...
I know you said that the instructor and the goon are freinds...If he is worth his salt he will prbably deal more harshly with his friend because the freind should have known better than to act inappropriately...
Regards,
Walt
As for telling an instructor, he's a friend of one of them. This guy is more likely to be believed than I am.
You need to practice under someone you trust. Your instructor should be able to convey the feeling and confidence that nothing bad or unwarrented happens in his class. I think either you can talk to your instructor on this issue and he will make sure everything is OK, or if you can't talk to him - that means in a way you don't trust in him or his abilities.
As you already mentioned there are two sides. If you practice a martial art that does throws and ground work, there is going to be some unintentional accidental contact eventually. It's part of the territory.
However, for a newbie to joke about it, and possibly keep trying - plus taking advantage someone whose attention is diverted shows a lack of class, again a newbie - just shows a lack of class.
Remember - your money is as good as this guys. If you wish, tell your instructor you don't want to pair up with this guy again. One shouldn't have to pay for abuse.
DragonMind
11-02-2004, 09:42
I thought this would be the best forum to put this in- if you read on, you'll realise why. I'm a bit shaken up after today's lesson and need to relieve some feelings, so here goes. And no sniggering or laughing because I'm being as open as possible here- I realise that men do read this forum, so try and be sincere, please.
Earlier I got paired up with this new guy in our class and it was the first martial arts lesson he'd been to. We were working on grabs and the first one we did was the chest grab. This guy put his hands on my shirt right above my breasts and grabbed my bra straps, saying "Oh, something to hold on to!" or something to that effect. The thing that scared me was the fact that he sounded really happy about it. He had hold of some of the fabric, too, so his hands were literally right on top of my bust, and he began shaking me to "make it more realistic".
I instinctively jumped backwards the first time this happened and slapped his arm, I was more inclined to go for his face though. He let go when I pretended I didn't understand the technique, and I called an instructor over to show us again; I was playing for time until we moved onto the next technique. This might have been a bit unfair on the new guy who was trying to learn it, but he'd just freaked me out. But as soon as the instructor left, he grabbed me again in the exact same place. I was too embarrassed to say or do anything this time, so for the rest of that technique, that was where he grabbed me.
This is where I am unsure whether I was starting to get paranoid about it. He may not have meant to alarm me by doing the above, and was probably just pratting around or genuinely misunderstood where to grab, but he'd still managed to scare me. It seemed that for the rest of the lesson, he was deliberately trying to take me by surprise so he could grab me and move in really close while pretending to do the technique because you have to move in quite close with grabs and when you're breaking and countering them. He certainly wasn't waiting until I was ready. Once, he moved in for a throw when I wasn't ready, and I landed very painfully after he slammed me down. He admitted he'd done it because I wasn't watching.
His attitude was like a school bully's- he acted like he'd managed to back me into a corner and that I was helpless, and that he was superior over any female, and I was just a naive little girl to him. This is where I am sure paranoia kicked in- I was expecting him to start raining blows down on me, I've felt that situation so many times before, but in different circumstances.
I'm really unsure whether he was serious or joking here, but we were doing groundwork too- this particular move was where you flip the attacker who is on top of you round so that he is on the ground instead of you, and you have the advantage. Upon feeling my weight, he gasped and swore. I couldn't tell whether he was joking or not, so I just laughed, even though inside, I was hurting like hell, because I'm at a healthy weight for my height and frame after working so hard to lose it this year- it won't go any lower.
Like I said, I don't know whether the initial scare caused these feelings and I was being paranoid, but it felt like I was just that helpless little girl being cornered by bullies again. I'm sorry if this has been really long, but thanks for reading. It's the first time I've ever felt threatened or scared while in that dojo, and I needed to get it off my chest. I'll probably get pounced on by all the moderators now for being too long-winded...
Your instincts are telling you something, which is why Rory recommended DeBecker's book. I would also suggest materials by Peyton Quinn, and Marc and Dianna MacYoung. The fellow is a callous sod as well as a sexual predator. Once is an accident; repetitive behavior is not and that is what you described. Your first reaction needs to be an assertion of your rights. Anyone who grabs you inappropriately should be informed in a very clear voice that you will not tolerate such behavior. Any continuation past that point should find you immediately, meaning right then not after the lesson, explaining to the instructor the nature of the inappropriate contact. Yes, it needs to be public and immediate. That forces the instructor to deal with it, friend or not, and lets all the other women know that there is a sexual predator in their midst. Will this embarass him? Yes, and hopefully that will provide incentive for him to change his behavior. Might he retaliate? Possibly, but you've also made it public so anything he does will work against him. You also have to realize that this type of behavior often escalates when you DON'T take action so being assertive won't increase the risk but may eliminate the problem. Passivity rarely will.
I think the world of Mandeigh, but her approach can backfire if done to the wrong person. Since this was a new student and you had no way of knowing how he might react, public pressure from an authority is a better approach than physical confrontation. If this was a mate just acting a fool, then I'd recommend a ridge hand rather than a grab...the fool might like the grab.
For your own comfort and safety, I'd also recommend investing in a sports bra with hard shell inserts. A punch or kick to the breast can be quite painful as well as damaging. Hitting that hard shell also helps eliminate some of the embarassment of unintentional breast contact. Also, if there are any judo/JJ instructors nearby, ask them about counters to dogi grabs. There are some very nasty and painful techniques that I use, but something like tai otoshi or tomoe nage can be a lot of fun.
Estrella
11-02-2004, 14:58
Well, that was a bloody successful observation. The guy didn't come to tonight's lesson. To tell the truth, I'm relieved about it- I'm a bit scared in case he does turn out to be a predator. And I'll be damned if I'm changing dojos because of this guy- I like where I am now. If things get serious and the instructors won't listen to me, then alright, fair enough, it'd be best to move in that case.
And, Barry, I know it hurts to be hit in the breast- someone did it to me ON PURPOSE a few months back. This girl just spontaneously whacks people for some reason, so I really clobbered her in our next sparring match because she deserved it. :whack: And you know what? She hasn't whacked anyone since. Can't do it to this guy, though, he doesn't do sparring, since he's new. Perhaps I should get a particular black belt on him- he scares the wits out of everyone who spars him, including me... :eek: :fear:
And where can I get works by the authors mentioned? I've never heard of them.
Some of the ways I've heard of dealing with this on here- :eek: !!!! Kick him in the balls, grab his testicles, make him bleed... You don't hold back do you? OK, perhaps you shouldn't in some situations, I admit, but if I try any of these actions, it'll result in me getting suspended, whether this guy was groping or not! But if he was, he'd get the boot, too, haha...Don't do this. Then you look like you cannot handle things without exploding.
Handle it socially, verbally. You'll be fine.
I have a couple of comments here. I help teach a kids jujitsu class. Many of the girls are just starting to go through puberty and many of the boys don't even know what that is. What I have found, that seems to work is to have the girl offer a target. If we are doing an escape from a chest grab, offer your lapel or point to exactly where you want him to grab you. Do this before he reaches for you. If he misses, you can say "no grab me here," loud enough that other people will hear and look over at what he is doing.
Also, think of things a little different. When training with someone, they have permission to touch you. If they are to make a particular attack, then they only have permission to make that attack. When they attack somewhere else, you stop it any way you can. ( I would parry or step back first before the nut kick, and show him again where to attack ) If he does grab your boob without your permission, switch to the submission hold you can best get on him ( there are a number of wrist and arm locks that work very well from that position ) and have a chat things like how to treat a woman, and training partner, respect, how easy some bones break .....
As far as him throwing you when you aren't ready, that is also not acceptable. But, you should be ready always while on the mat. Work at being ready all the time. Ideally, yoiu should be ready at all times on or off the mat. Same goes for the boob grabbing. Use what you learned from this experience to adjust your reaction. You could be on a date, at a club, walking down the street when some guy could grab you. Are you ready? What would have made you more comfortable in handling it? Work on that.
I am not trying to rationalize what he did. What he did was wrong. But, as long as it happened, learn from it.
DragonMind
11-03-2004, 12:29
And where can I get works by the authors mentioned? I've never heard of them.
Funds permitting, Amazon has them. I'd also check a public library if one is handy. If they don't have them, perhaps you can ask if they can get them, either for their collection or through inter-library loan. You might also ask your instructor(s) if they have any of their stuff. They might be interested in reading them as well.
Tony Blauer has a number of articles on his site on adrenal stress conditioning as well.
Estrella
11-04-2004, 04:46
He wasn't in yesterday, either. I wonder if he's been reading this thread...?
Does he belong to this web site community?
He wasn't in yesterday, either. I wonder if he's been reading this thread...?
As long as he's not bothering you, it doesn't matter, right?
Estrella
11-04-2004, 15:52
Hey,I'm not complaining. Let's hope he doesn't come back...
Let's hope, for your sake, he doesn't.
Estrella
11-04-2004, 15:59
I just hope he doesn't go elsewhere and scare the wits out of people.
Estrella
11-04-2004, 16:03
Does he belong to this web site community?
I don't have a clue, but he could just be a lurker. I didn't get his name.
When is it EVER acceptable to grab a female by the bra straps? And then make a joke about it?
When I'm grabbing, and she's my wife. 8)
(But not in the dojo).
Hey there...
Just wondering if this guy ever came back to the school or how the incident was left...
and on a side note...how is your training going?
Regards,
Walt
Estrella
12-01-2004, 06:11
He came back for one more lesson, and the woman he was working with didn't seem unhappy in any way. But it was quite hard to tell- I was down the other end of the room in a different belt level group, he was with the white belts. And then he just disappeared. The funny thing is, the instructor he was friends with has left as well, so I don't know what's going on there, because he just left without a word(the instructor, not the grabber!).
My training's going great, thanks. I'm slowly learning how to deal with 6'4" opponents in sparring, picking up bruises to my rather nice body in the meantime(GGRRR!! :mad: :cry: ), but I can't learn a martial art without taking any hits at all, I suppose! My test grades are increasing, so I must be getting better, thank God. :D
Glad to hear that things are going well in your training. Good luck with it...
Regards,
Walt
"...picking up bruises to my rather nice body in the meantime(GGRRR!! ), but I can't learn a martial art without taking any hits at all, I suppose!"
Do you want to look pretty or do you want to be tough? It is possible to be both, I suppose....
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Estrella
12-01-2004, 09:40
It was a joke, Jeff!! I'm really not that bothered, since the only part of my body you can see at this time of year is my face- everything else is covered because it's that bloody cold!! :(
Lisa, I know you were joking - me too! I just like picking on you.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
DragonMind
12-01-2004, 16:03
Do you want to look pretty or do you want to be tough? It is possible to be both, I suppose....
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
I guess that depends on your opinion of Cynthia Rothrock or Nia Peeples...
I'm slowly learning how to deal with 6'4" opponents in sparring, picking up bruises to my rather nice body in the meantime(GGRRR!! :mad: :cry: )
You sure you want to tell use how nice of a body you have? :rolleyes:
Estrella
12-02-2004, 11:32
My body's so damn nice, it'd be impossible to tell you how good it is in words... :laugh: ;)
Estrella
12-02-2004, 11:35
Lisa, I know you were joking - me too! I just like picking on you.
Picking on me?! You'll regret that... :laugh:
Picking on me?!
I would too, but I'm too scared to do so.
Estrella
12-02-2004, 13:37
And so you should be!!! :cutup:
Bring it on, little girl. :up:
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Bring it on, little girl. :up:
:eek:
You shouldn't have done that!
Budderfly
12-03-2004, 03:08
Sorry I just saw this thread for the first time and perhaps this may have been mentioned.
I know he has left your school but if it happens again (or to any female MA) then look them in the eye and say calmly but assertively "Your hand is on my breast and I don't like it". The word breast (as opposed to *****) snaps a guy up and he'll back off. This sounds weird but it works. It's like the word "breast" is harder to accept than *****. At least for some guys.
You may think "what the hell is Budderfly talking about?" but I'll explain.
There used to be a guy in my class who would "accidentely" grab me or slide his arm across my chest when changing from side control to mount. He's even punched my breast when sparring more than once. The first few times I ignored it and moved on but after the 4 or 5th time I was questioning his hand misplacements. After the 7th or 8th time, I did something about it. Either he wasn't aware and was just carelss or he was a perv. I have no tolerance for that crap.
"I'm here to learn people, not to make out with you. Go on with the chlorophyll."
So I looked him in the eye and said what I wrote above. He pulled back like I slapped him across the face and got the message. The guy is now long gone, but while he was still there he stopped doing that.
Another thing to try is telling your instructor and ask him to keep an eye out. Tell him you feel uncomfortableworking with this guy. It's not really ratting, just making him aware.
Glad to hear he isn't bothering you anymore.
Budderfly
12-03-2004, 03:14
When is it EVER acceptable to grab a female by the bra straps? And then make a joke about it?
Soft shelled turtle (rub back gently)
Hard backed turtle (knock gently on back)
Snapping turtle! (snap bra straps)
My friend pulled this on me once. I couldn't help but laugh.
DragonMind
12-03-2004, 08:16
My body's so damn nice, it'd be impossible to tell you how good it is in words... :laugh: ;)
Sorry, darling, but at 16, you still have some growing to do to get that good. :D
Estrella
12-03-2004, 10:10
Sorry, darling, but at 16, you still have some growing to do to get that good. :D
I can only get better!! :laugh: :wink2: I'm certainly not growing upwards though, Miss Average here has been this exact same stature for about a year...
Bring it on, little girl.
You're really going to have to watch what you say now, Jeff. The minute you slip I'll tear you to pieces...
:chainsaw: :cutup: :rocket: :shoot: :whack: :dead:
You shouldn't have done that!
You're right, he shouldn't. At least you've got sense, Jonathan... :D
Budderfly, thanks. And everyone else who's offered help, too. That even includes the "Mandeigh Wells techniques"!! :laugh: At least I've got something to refer back to if something like this ever happens again. And yes, I have learnt from this incident before anyone pounces on me and calls me ignorant. Thank you, everybody! :bow:
You're right, he shouldn't. At least you've got sense, Jonathan... :D
Yeah. I ususally know what to do so I won't get in trouble. That mostly involves keeping my mouth shut, which I do quite often.
Estrella
12-03-2004, 16:00
I wondered why your posts are always so short...They say quiet people are usually the worst type, you know... :D
Jay Bell
12-03-2004, 16:14
What do they say about soggy girls that yap too much? :D
Estrella
12-03-2004, 16:19
That we're absolutely fantastic... :laugh: :t2:
Lisa,
The last time I slipped was when I was born. And that was the doctor's fault. :p
Back on topic:
Mandeigh, your little story about your female friend and the push-hands with the male student is a GREAT example of double-standards. Your friend's action was ENTIRELY inappropriate. Imagine if a male student grabbed a new female student's hands and forced her to touch his genitals in the same manner, and then verbally embarrassed her. Bad, bad move.
Leah, "There used to be a guy in my class who would "accidentely" grab me or slide his arm across my chest when changing from side control to mount. He's even punched my breast when sparring more than once. The first few times I ignored it and moved on but after the 4 or 5th time I was questioning his hand misplacements. After the 7th or 8th time, I did something about it. Either he wasn't aware and was just carelss or he was a perv. I have no tolerance for that crap."
In every system I have studied, for sparring purposes anything above the belt was fair game to punch; the women just dealt with it. I used to apologize in karate class when I would inadvertantly do that; I was constantly chastized for apologizing for it, and reminded that everything above the belt is a fair target.
I'm guessing you're picking up on a creepy vibe from this guy, something you can't really put into words. Trust your instincts.
I have actually had the opposite thing happen in my class with young females acting inappropriately (I have had males do the same). I handle both situations the same way: clearly outline what is acceptable and what isn't, and if that line is crossed they are expelled from class. I have had two expelled over the years - both males. The females who acted inappropriately responded very well to verbal correction.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Budderfly
12-04-2004, 02:30
^ And it was the instincts I trusted. You're bang on. I did have a creepy vibe. I did ignore it the first few times, but once it was becoming a habit I decided to say something (without directly accusing him).
Mandeigh Wells
12-04-2004, 04:57
Mandeigh, your little story about your female friend and the push-hands with the male student is a GREAT example of double-standards. Your friend's action was ENTIRELY inappropriate. Imagine if a male student grabbed a new female student's hands and forced her to touch his genitals in the same manner, and then verbally embarrassed her. Bad, bad move. ;) well that had actually known each other for a while and we were in a small intimate group of people who knew each other well but because he was frightened of touching her by accident (she is rather well endowed) he was not applying the move correctly..........anyway she's Dutch....nuff said! :o and I think he actually enjoyed it.........
I had a a similar one with my instructor at that time.....I was struggling to get the move chest push, deflect return the push kind of thing...and he said it was harder for him because he was trying NOT to push my chest.... :rolleyes: because he was altering his push I wasn't getting the benefit of the drill......when my Dutch friend and I did the exercise togther, no such probs, if we acidently caught each other we just carried on.....it was worse getting the nail marks in the face....if you know what I mean :eek:
But I do understand what you are saying Jeff
Mandeigh, thanks for clarifying the context of that situation. As you know, context is everything. :)
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
I wondered why your posts are always so short...They say quiet people are usually the worst type, you know... :D
Worst type?! How so?
Well, if you mean dating and such then you're probably right.
Math major + quiet = no dates. :anger:
Estrella
12-06-2004, 04:24
Aaaah, poor Jonathan... Some girls like quiet brainboxes, you know...
Aaaah, poor Jonathan... Some girls like quiet brainboxes, you know...
I've heard they do. I have yet to meet any of them.
DragonMind
12-06-2004, 08:20
Aaaah, poor Jonathan... Some girls like quiet brainboxes, you know...
To quote the late Sam Kinison, name ONE!
I know that I'm being a spoilsport but, this has gotten way off the orginal topic...
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