Aggression

[dear john]

i have met a few peple in the martial arts world who believe that violence is no way to learn how to defend ones self. :nono:

when i speak of violence, i mean acts of aggression like boxing or the NHB competitions. maybe even more simple like just rushing some to see what they would do under the pressure. for me, the main point of receiving this violence is to learn how to deal with the stress and adrinaline rushes. :chainsaw:


what is your take on this?

[Vehemence]

dunno, sounds like thing someone of those 'non-opposing' type arts, would say. aikido n' all those 'use their motion against them' sorta things...

head to head violence isn't the smartest option I'm sure anyone would admit.

[Estrella]

head to head violence isn't the smartest option I'm sure anyone would admit.

Definitely not, especially if your opponent's a lot bigger and stronger than you are. And that goes for real attacks and competitions. I'm not saying you can talk your way out of everything either, though.

[dear john]

so you agree with those who believe that ead to head violence is not the best way to train for any situation?

[Erik]

I think we need to define what a solution looks like.

Is a solution leaving an opponent unable to continue to pose a threat to you? That's a broad definition, one that ranges from running away to killing them.

One must consider that we have doctors, lawyers, cops, and the "other guy" could have friends with him.

So, what's the goal?

Once we have established that, we can start discussing methods.

[Spartan]

lol

"Hello Mr. Evil dude. Before I cave your face in for trying to slice up my face with your broken beer bottle, may I have a looksie of your resume, bio, references and background check please? I just wanna be sure if you have any "doctors, lawyers, cops, and the "other guy" as friends first. :D "

lol Sorry, Eric. Just can't resist. :D

[Nicholas Berkeley]

I think there is a difference between fighting and aggression. There are many reasons to fight, but aggression is one of the ones I do not put much stock into. To me, martial arts is about discipline and self-control, and aggression seems to counteract that. As I said before, however, there are many reasons to fight. Simply make sure that your motives are in the right place beforehand. If someone is attacking you, or you're trying to do the right thing, then I think it is acceptable to fight. I even enjoy friendly sparring matches with rivals and training partners, but there's a fine line there, and I will never enter into a sparring match with someone I am angry with. At any rate, those are my imperfect, and for the most part, cliche answers. Just throwing in my thoughts.

Nicholas

[Erik]

lol
"Hello Mr. Evil dude. Before I cave your face in for trying to slice up my face with your broken beer bottle, may I have a looksie of your resume, bio, references and background check please? I just wanna be sure if you have any "doctors, lawyers, cops, and the "other guy" as friends first. :D "
lol Sorry, Eric. Just can't resist. :D
Ken, what on earth are you talking about? I don't follow.

I asked this because, in ca. 5 years of bouncing, facing guys with bottles, knives, lots of pals, towns known for DAs and cops hostile to bouncers or to drunk college kids, and so on, there's a lot to figure out.

For example - guy pulls a knife. 1st though, get the hell out of there. 2nd thought, use terrain (close and latch the door, call cops), 3rd thought, drive a stool into him, feet first (did that - worked surprisingly well) and press him against a wall. None of these are common martial art skills and none come from eskrima.

Another example - publically shamed by some a$$hole, but he doesn't have any friends around. Use judo skills - take the ******* down, pin him, and set up a choke.

Then, just for fun, use some pain-causing wrist leverage just to screw with him for a while. That gooseneck is something I learned as a kid in aikido. Ground control from wrestling and BJJ. Not overreacting and crippling the guy, knowing how far I can push that gooseneck, comes from fear of the law.

Throwing punches could land me in jail in the Bay Area while grappling is less risky, so again, use BJJ/Judo skills instead of exploding his nose. Of course, in San Luis Obispo a bouncer can do almost anything and the cops will back him up over the drunk college kid, even if the student gets the skin around his eyes sewn back together.

But, if he's got pals, striking is safer for me as I don't give up my mobility. Or, get a rear-naked choke and keep him between me and his pals 'til my backup arrives (be it in the form of buddies or my partners/teammates at work).

All this assumes that I cannot talk my way out of whatever has gotten the guy riled up. Diffusing aggression with speech.

So, that's what I'm getting at. Each encounter described above is different and implies the use of different MA skills - takedowns, leverages, chokes, boxing, kicking, etc. Each situation requires the correct balance of self-control and aggression within oneself.

The original question was how to handle aggression. I'm asking about which circumstance. Part of handling aggression is keeping it from escalating too far which entails decisive yet appropriate action.

Too much - you go to jail. Too little - you go to the hospital. Self-diciplene is balancing the two within oneself.

[Spartan]

I was just pulling your leg. Oh well. The joke sucks then. :shoot:

[Erik]

No worries, Ken, you goofball...

:laugh:

[dear john]

Like always you have completely misunderstood what i wrote.

the average Joe Shmoe gets nervous in a fight and overreacts or looses control.

i talked about getting nervous/stressing and dealing with adrenaline rushes.
i never said that i wanted to hurt others through violence.
my questions are to those of you who read my post is.....



do you think that it is more successful to train people with or without giving them the understanding of what an adrenaline rush or a violent attack is?

do you think they will be able to keep calm such as controlling adrenaline not going to far in the fight because they got caught up in the moment?

and if you believe this why?

[Vehemence]

I think there is a difference between fighting and aggression. There are many reasons to fight, but aggression is one of the ones I do not put much stock into. To me, martial arts is about discipline and self-control, and aggression seems to counteract that.

well said.

[Vehemence]

Like always you have completely misunderstood what i wrote.

wesponsibiwity, not bwame. :bow:




the average Joe Shmoe gets nervous in a fight and overreacts or looses control.

you think the average aggressive person has more control? the form and accuracy is pathetic when someone is all emotional in a fight. you certainly dont need aggression for speed or power if you already know how to fight/defend yourself, the intelligent fighter is better with a clear head.


one must fight with brain, not ego :karate:

[Vehemence]

do you think that it is more successful to train people with or without giving them the understanding of what an adrenaline rush or a violent attack is?

...I don't know what an adrenaline rush is in relation to needing to be educated on it? it means you don't feel pain as strongly and have more energy (the whole fight/flight thing) ... what more is there to know?




do you think they will be able to keep calm such as controlling adrenaline not going to far in the fight because they got caught up in the moment?

and if you believe this why?

I don't think you can blame adreniline levels for lack of control. again, control more of an emotional thing.

and who's to say what 'too far' is if you are still talking about self defence? necessary force to stop the attack and leave the dangerous situation... if you can't stop yourself after that, that isn't the fault of adrenaline.

[dear john]

you think the average aggressive person has more control? the form and accuracy is pathetic when someone is all emotional in a fight. you certainly dont need aggression for speed or power if you already know how to fight/defend yourself, the intelligent fighter is better with a clear head.

one must fight with brain, not ego :karate:


it is not my statement to say it is good to use agression in a fight, i say that it is good for you to know what it is in order to control it, i wanted to know your take but i guess the way uoi guys answer i know.

i tried.....

listen if you were average joe off the street and i walked up to you and started beating the crap out of you , do you think that you would be nervous, a little scared maybe?


i guess through your answers you have answered NO but i still think that you are misinterpreting what i am saying.

[Erik]

Like always you have completely misunderstood what i wrote.Sorry. Didn't mean to.


the average Joe Shmoe gets nervous in a fight and overreacts or looses control.Yes, this is quite true for most people. Some just become focused, however. One doesn't know until one's been in a fight/combat/incident/drama/whatever.


i talked about getting nervous/stressing and dealing with adrenaline rushes.Yes. That's why I was asking about context. Saving one's own life when in deep trouble requires less self-control. That adrenaline can make you run faster, too. Being ferocious from being scared and panicked can help (and can hinder). Other circumstances, where cops, other guy's friends, being in public, etc., play a role makes for a different game, one where self-control is more important.


do you think that it is more successful to train people with or without giving them the understanding of what an adrenaline rush or a violent attack is?Far better to train them so.


do you think they will be able to keep calm such as controlling adrenaline not going to far in the fight because they got caught up in the moment?Yes, I believe that such training does a lot for this.


and if you believe this why?In some cases not injuring the other guy is part of what's required to win as you may face retaliation, escalation, or the law, nevermind your own sense of guilt. This requires a lot of control on the part of the fighter.

The fear and panic from wrestling matches taught me at least as much as any MA I've done, probably more, actually.

It taught me to keep cool and lucid under pressure and to not freak out when a technique does not produce the results I expected. Sometimes things work like in the laboratory, other times they don't even come close. It's up to the fighter to adapt himself to changing circumstances and to choke down his fear so that he can remain lucid enough to adapt and win.

For this reason I am a firm believer in the efficacy of sport-type martial arts (wrestling, judo, kickboxing, etc., as opposed to aikido, kung fu san soo, etc.) in training a fighter to harness and control his and his opponent's fear, panic, and aggression.

Did this answer your question better?

[DragonMind]

Adrenal stress is real and can be trained for. I suggest looking at works by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence), Gavin DeBecker (The Gift of Fear), Tony Blauer and Peyton Quinn.

[jakmak52]

Adrenal stress is real and can be trained for. I suggest looking at works by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence), Gavin DeBecker (The Gift of Fear), Tony Blauer and Peyton Quinn.

Ah yes, let's not forget Marc "Animal" MacYoung either. I guess I don't equate violence as much as others playing a part in studying martial arts as much as aggressive vs. passive offensive techniques. "Violence" for me is out of control aggression that you might experience in a street fight or the like, which can be managed or contained easier than someone that is in control, yet aggressively offensive to the attack. Make sense? :rolleyes: I've learned over years to utilize my "Adrenaline rush" especially in competition, like Barry speaks of emotional intelligence being the goal that I seek, (easier said than done) ;)

[G_2]

Sirs,
I have been in the martial arts for almost 20 years now, and while I still have a long way to go, I can address this topic. I have been in close to fifty real street fights. (I spent a decade in prison and now work as a bouncer.) I cannot deny the value of dojo training, even, dare I say it, kata's CAN have value... But there is no substitute for real fight experience. (Like combat experience in the military.) You screw up in real fights. You make mistakes that if you are lucky and survive you look back and say "DAMN! I will NEVER do that again..." You also have the chance to see the theory and reality of the arts much clearer if you are in a real fight. Say for instance much of Jiu Jitsu. A very fun and cool art. But not one that I would want to use in a life and death situation. (Ex #1: If you tie up with me what stops the guy with the broken beer bottle that you came in with from braining me?) No, each style has it's own strengths and weaknesses. But as for "real fighting" simplicity is the best answer I have found. Yes, practicing complicated techniques can train the muscles and mind, but the real lesson is driven home when your life is on the line. I am not speaking badly of someone who has never been in a real fight, they are just as much of a martial artist as I am, but they have a basis of theoretical knowledge, knowledge I respect and admire, but they only have half, at most, of the true art.
In the end, aggression and fighting is not the end goal of martial art training, at least when I teach, but it is a tool one cannot be hesitant to use if needed. I also must add, tournaments and ring fighting are in the same class as Kata. Useful, in their own way but no predictor of actual "martial" ability.
I respectfully submit this for your consideration and comment.
G2

[riku]

G2-
welcome to this forum! Please remember that there's full name rule here: everyone have to sign all posts with real, full name (first and last):
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5142

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Erik]

Hi G2,

What training has taught you most about keeping clear headed while under pressure?

Sure, experience always helps, but I think these guys were asking about how to train for those days when they earn their experience.

Good post, by the way.

[G_2]

G2= Bradley "G2" Groceman of West Palm Beach Florida. I am called G2 because I was incarcerated with my brother who was older and hence G1.
Thanks and Sorry.
Brad "G2" Groceman

[G_2]

sir,
The best way to keep your head when under pressure is to have constant exposure to a threatening situation. (Or as real as possible. Live Fire Drills if you will...) Now, by constant I don't mean every minute of everyday, but say for instance I am working a rap concert at a violent club. (This Friday Night) I am white. I don't even like rap. But I will be "THE MOST ALERT" person in there, except for maybe my boss, as I know my *** is on the line. I also have signals or indicators I look for. Things you just "know" and each persons are different. You might look fore objects in the hands, body-weight shifts and looks in the eyes, but whatever you look for, you do. You develop patterns that set off your alarms. Until those patterns are set off you can stay alert, but calm. I will be one of the nicest people there...until things eventually (and they will) go bad.
As for combat. Your mind has to be silent. Inner voices or conversations are rarely, for me, positive and I find they hinder my response time. So, I seek an inner silence and just try to do something. I also take comfort from having survived some real stupidity in the past... which has led to me to just ignore or chill when things are hectic.
In the end, conquering fear is probably the key and I have yet to do this entirely, but I do accept fear will be there, always, so it lessens it's affect.
Please feel free to take issue or discuss this as I have a long way to go and new insight is always accepted and respected.
Thanks,
Brad "G2" Groceman

[Abbax8]

Like always you have completely misunderstood what i wrote.

the average Joe Shmoe gets nervous in a fight and overreacts or looses control.

i talked about getting nervous/stressing and dealing with adrenaline rushes.
i never said that i wanted to hurt others through violence.
my questions are to those of you who read my post is.....



do you think that it is more successful to train people with or without giving them the understanding of what an adrenaline rush or a violent attack is?

do you think they will be able to keep calm such as controlling adrenaline not going to far in the fight because they got caught up in the moment?

and if you believe this why?

The type of training you are talkling about is what shiai in judo was originally intended to do, place the contestants into a situation as close to actual combat as possible, yet keep the injuries low. Shiai and to some extent club randori can give you the adrenaline rush your talking about, it also generates a certain amount of fear that you have to control and still perform under.

Peace

Dennis

[Erik]

What's the difference between shiai and randori?

Randori is like a take-down match, with both players competing instead of cooperating, I believe, but what about shiai? What's different?

[G_2]

Sirs,
I agree and disagree with the last posting. I took a para-military style for years that fashioned itself as a street style and I did a lot of randori/advanced sparring (read free combat with few rules) and while it felt good to do it (randori) and I did gain a lot of confidence, it had little resemblance to real fighting. Real fighting is messy, nasty and brutal. Something you wouldn't wish upon a training partner, yet it is a part of you that you have to access and master if you want to be able to call on it when you need it the most. I don't advocate street fighting either. I just have seen far too many dojo blackbelts lose badly to untrained street predators. We cannot water down the methods we teach but instead must accept them and embrace the reality, making it a sweet and pure wine.
Best of regards and respect.
Brad "G2" Groceman

[DragonMind]

Ah yes, let's not forget Marc "Animal" MacYoung either. I guess I don't equate violence as much as others playing a part in studying martial arts as much as aggressive vs. passive offensive techniques. "Violence" for me is out of control aggression that you might experience in a street fight or the like, which can be managed or contained easier than someone that is in control, yet aggressively offensive to the attack. Make sense? :rolleyes: I've learned over years to utilize my "Adrenaline rush" especially in competition, like Barry speaks of emotional intelligence being the goal that I seek, (easier said than done) ;)
I am so ashamed. :( How could I forget to add Marc and Dianna's outstanding materials? The Animal List is probably the BEST source of info on real fighting out there.

[G_2]

Sirs,
Have reviewed the material in question on "marc the animal". I always wanted my money back....
Thank you,
Bradley "G2" Groceman

[DragonMind]

Sirs,
Have reviewed the material in question on "marc the animal". I always wanted my money back....
Thank you,
Bradley "G2" Groceman
Can you go into more detail? I'm curious what your take is given your background. No offense intended, I am truly interested in your perspective.

[Abbax8]

What's the difference between shiai and randori?

Randori is like a take-down match, with both players competing instead of cooperating, I believe, but what about shiai? What's different?

Randori is free fighting at the club level and is designed to be pure training. Winning and losing in randori are both worthwhile or useless. If you win and don't learn anything or lose and don't learn anything, you've wasted your time. Randori is done in an environment where you try to take care of your training partner, even while you drive them into the earth :D . Shiai is pure competition, the goal is to win. It was not originally the only intent of it when Kano designed judo, but the reality is, shiai is about winning. While the same techniques may be used, the intensity is ratcheted up to the limit in shiai.

Peace

Dennis

[slamdunc]

I usually hate to quote myself, but I am always telling people that I spent over twenty years training and learning martial arts, just so I would never have to fight. I believe in hard physical training and even harder mental training; Attitude is Everything. If I can't talk my way out of a tense situation, then I might have to fight.
I am a deputy sheriff, and as such, in police academy, was trained in 'Verbal Judo', the main goal of which is 'to gain voluntary compliance'. A person's tongue can get them in a tight spot in a hurry. In my martial arts school, we often trained in avoid conflict / stop conflict scenarios. As I taught the younger students, I gained valuable insight and developed my own style of dealing with violent situations.
It is much easier to just jump into a physical confrontation, than to talk your way out. I take it as a personal challenge to use my verbal skills instead of physical violence. In theory, we do not train in martial arts to learn how to be violent, we train to defend ourselves if necessary. We also train to stay in shape, develop good balance, become self-confident, or to have a sense of belonging somewhere.
If we resort to physical violence, without first attempting to diffuse the situation, we have lost the fight. This is not meant to teach students to be a doormat for someone, but to educate and to let them know there are alternatives.

[G_2]

Sir,
I apologize for being so slow in responding.
As for Marc The Animal Young. If I dig around for it I can find a copy of one of his books, if I am not using it for a doorstop... There are some good anecdotal books out there. Then there is self-aggrandizing detritus like Mr. Youngs book. I deride not the veracity or content, just the method he delivered it by. I read a book of his and the best way I can describe it is a "mind-virus". I failed to find any application that I could agree to or learn from. I just put the book down and thought, "Man, why didn't I stop reading this?"
If you want, I will dig it out and quote a few of the more meglomaniacal passages... But I would want to delete the posting lest I pass the virus on.
In Quarantine...
With respect.
Brad "G2" Groceman

ps, once again, sorry for the delay, been busy.

[DragonMind]

Sir,
I apologize for being so slow in responding.
As for Marc The Animal Young. If I dig around for it I can find a copy of one of his books, if I am not using it for a doorstop... There are some good anecdotal books out there. Then there is self-aggrandizing detritus like Mr. Youngs book. I deride not the veracity or content, just the method he delivered it by. I read a book of his and the best way I can describe it is a "mind-virus". I failed to find any application that I could agree to or learn from. I just put the book down and thought, "Man, why didn't I stop reading this?"
If you want, I will dig it out and quote a few of the more meglomaniacal passages... But I would want to delete the posting lest I pass the virus on.
In Quarantine...
With respect.
Brad "G2" Groceman

ps, once again, sorry for the delay, been busy.
Not a problem, been pretty swamped myself. Who would you recommend since you clearly don't care for Marc MacYoung?

[jakmak52]

How about Peyton Quinn :D

Peyton Quinn (http://www.rmcat.com/fffbook/)

[jwinch2]

Hey guys! This is a really interesting thread so far so I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

There is quite a bit of research which has been performed on how your abilities to perform a skill change depending on the level of anxiety you are experiencing at the time.

What the data shows is that there is an optimal level of stress for each person that allows him/herself to remain focused but with enough "juice" to really perform. Also, the data shows that the more you train at a high level of anxiety the better you perform in stressful situations. If one is used to performing in those types of settings, things will slow down and you will perform as well as or better than normal. If not, things will move much too quickly for you and you will lose the ability to perform at a high level.

It kind of goes back to an old saying that I am very fond of. "Never let your body go somewhere that your mind has not already gone".

Good discussion guys!

Jason

[jakmak52]

Sirs,
I have been in the martial arts for almost 20 years now, and while I still have a long way to go, I can address this topic. I have been in close to fifty real street fights. (I spent a decade in prison and now work as a bouncer.) I cannot deny the value of dojo training, even, dare I say it, kata's CAN have value... But there is no substitute for real fight experience. (Like combat experience in the military.) You screw up in real fights. You make mistakes that if you are lucky and survive you look back and say "DAMN! I will NEVER do that again..." You also have the chance to see the theory and reality of the arts much clearer if you are in a real fight. Say for instance much of Jiu Jitsu. A very fun and cool art. But not one that I would want to use in a life and death situation. (Ex #1: If you tie up with me what stops the guy with the broken beer bottle that you came in with from braining me?) No, each style has it's own strengths and weaknesses. But as for "real fighting" simplicity is the best answer I have found. Yes, practicing complicated techniques can train the muscles and mind, but the real lesson is driven home when your life is on the line. I am not speaking badly of someone who has never been in a real fight, they are just as much of a martial artist as I am, but they have a basis of theoretical knowledge, knowledge I respect and admire, but they only have half, at most, of the true art.
In the end, aggression and fighting is not the end goal of martial art training, at least when I teach, but it is a tool one cannot be hesitant to use if needed. I also must add, tournaments and ring fighting are in the same class as Kata. Useful, in their own way but no predictor of actual "martial" ability.
I respectfully submit this for your consideration and comment.
G2

Welcome to the forum G2. You familiar with FSP & RMC in northern Florida :rolleyes: Survival and martial arts training should be blended. :bandit:

[G_2]

Sirs,
Probably the best "book" I have read in the past decade that made any martial sense (if I know what means) is Mark Bowden's "Black Hawk Down." Not the movie, but the non-fiction account of the somalian engagement. He captured the hectic insane misguided way combat ALWAYS goes the best. I mean if you want to read anecdotal...
Yes, there isn't a single punch thrown, nor a kick, but never have I seen a clearer line drawn between theoretical experience (rangers) and real experience (delta). To anyone who has read the book, please comment.
As for real combat. (By the way small world note, I trained in a style Bill Superfoot worked out in and was privilaged enough to get my a@@ kicked by him once in a casual round of sparring back in the late 80's in Kansas City. Good guy. I was really horrible and he was very kind...) I have yet to find anything that really caught my eye, bookwise. I mean every man has his own take on how to face combat... I don't think there is a how to manual on how to face life and death situations. I have always relied heavily on shame as a motivator. I have two friends who think highly of me (in that I would be man or some such bs) and I am always afraid that I will pull a weak move. As stupid as this sounds, it has served me well when the chips were down. "Damn, what would so and so think if they saw me now?"
I don't have that Zen life and death are the same program in my cpu. If you have it, I need a copy. :t2: The Hagakure, I guess?
Like Krav Maga, I like the theory. I know an old school student of Imi Lichtenfeld and my god, does he have some stuff in his bag of tricks that is downright deadly. He pushed me to get the book by Imi. I read it and was reminded of Marc Young's stuff.. yet the guy who had taught him 90% of the stuff (he claimed adamantly) was the same guy who had written the book. What happened? I don't know.
As for the slowing down effect. Yes, sometimes it is there, sometimes it is not. I spent some time trying to figure out why it was not everytime... I didn't get an answer. When it's there, you are almost ashamed to hit someone. When it's not, everything is a blur and confused. I expect someone has studied this? Anyone every seen any serious work on this (Jason)?

I think that in the end, we all have to find some happy balance.
I also wish to add, that I have sworn off "live fire" training for a while and am going to do some theoretical research/training. (Arnis/Wally Jay stuff). So, there has to be a balance.
Good luck to all,
With Respect,
Brad "G2" Groceman

[jakmak52]

I am so ashamed. :( How could I forget to add Marc and Dianna's outstanding materials? The Animal List is probably the BEST source of info on real fighting out there.

Ah yes, let's not forget Mike Lee Kanarek (http://fight2survive.com/founder.aspx)and Walt Lysak (http://www.realityconnection.com/blackbeltmagpromo.html) as well :bow: