Associations/Affiliation/Certification [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Lord_Yong

11-22-2004, 13:01

I am currently looking for info on certifying bodies. I have a few criteria that I need to meet. I want an organization that I can instructor or school charter with, with reasonable fees, and good morals. It has to be a mixed martial arts or universal martial arts association, since I teach mixed arts. Here are some of my needs.

* reasonable costs for student certifications (when I have to turn in 25.00 to an organization for a certificate, this takes profit from my school)
* reasonable or free dan testing
* A board/director who is interested in helping me build my schools up, or who already has programs in place to help instructors.

If anyone has any input, please don't hesitate to write. I've searched the net, and seen a few of the organizations out there. I guess I just havent found what I'm looking for. I have memberships with an organization now, but the director is very old, and I need to look toward my future.

Thanks!

John Bennett

11-22-2004, 13:40

What fees do you consider "reasonable"?

Why are you wanting certification?

Generally speaking, some of the least expensive certification and membership fees come from organizations that have little to offer in the way of name recognition, guidance and couselling, and student benefit.

Checkout:

http://usjujitsu.net
http://usja-judo.org
http://www.igjjf.com

Please don't forget to include your real, full name in your posts per the forum rules.

Lord_Yong

11-23-2004, 02:21

Thanks for the web sites, but those seem pretty specific. As stated in my original post, I need universal or multi art associations, not something centered so much around one art that even the web addresses reflect the bias.

As far as fees? Well if I have to promote a student to yellow belt for example, I can't see paying more than 15.00 to an organization for the student's certificate, I'll put it that way.

Steve Fowler

John Bennett

11-23-2004, 06:31

Why are you wanting certification?

jabonn

11-23-2004, 07:12

If you send me $5000 in small unmarked bills I will certify you any in rank and style you wish. :D :D

Why not purchase your own certificates and consult with the other yudanshikai in your area or within your style? Does having a certificate from a multi-style organization make your art more authentic? Because that little piece of paper from the USJI doesn't mean sh*t, with the certification or without it I am still the same judo-ka.

Lord_Yong

11-23-2004, 21:59

I see your point, but without that certificate no one has a clue who you are. It's all about personal preference, and my preference is to be affiliated with people more internationally recognized than myself, for the purpose of recognition and for my own rank advancement. My own personal choice is to maintain affiliation and not to be an island out there by myself. As far as seeking out the people you mentioned, I've no clue. I've never heard that term before, so I wouldn't know. There are no schools in my area that assist each other, and even if they were high enough to test me, it wouldn't be wise of them to assist their competition in advancement. For me personally, maintaining a relationship with a base organization is the only way to go.

Somehow I was diverted, I didn't post asking for people to attempt to convince me that I don't need an association to belong to, I simply posted asking if anyone knew of associations that offer what I was seeking. If anyone does, please post.

Steve Fowler

Kaoru

11-23-2004, 22:22

Hi!

Well, to become recognised, you need to just be good at what you do, and be a decent teacher. Word will spread if you are fair, a good teacher, and are not claiming to be stuff like 10th dan, soke or whatever.

Some of those multi-art organisations have the most stupid "sensei" as members claiming to be soke of this or that and 10th dan. Do you want to be associated with that kind of garbage? That's what could happen if you want to be "recognised" by some multi-art organisation.

You don't need to be recognised. That's mainly an ego thing. Just train, teach and enjoy your students and get the proper grading though your own art's organisation. (Am also wondering if you meant getting graded by such an organisation too. It wasn't too clear to me. Sorry. I got a bit confused. Not meant to offend. Just forget the last bit if I erred.)

If you look for recognition, it will elude you as it should.

And a 'certificate?" Why don't you just get certified in your art? You should seek proper certification from your art's organisation. Some strange organisation isnt going to provide that. And, they can't promote you either, if they do not teach your art. Where did you get that idea, if this is what you mean?

jabonn

11-24-2004, 08:21

Steve,

Where is your sensei (teacher) and his or her other students? Who is/was your teacher's teacher? And so on and so on..... This is where I would start to try and build an affilation.

It makes sense for a promotion board as they know the system and can spot trouble areas for the student. They can also be guest instructors for seminars or help build a joint-school work out.

Those blackbelts in your system are your yudanshikai.

Good luck!

Lord_Yong

11-24-2004, 20:06

That's exactly the drivel I thought I addressed and tried to divert people away from. Like I said, it's a personal choice, and my choice is to retain affiliation for the purposes I mentioned. If you feel that organizations are just a bunch of self proclaimed sokes, that's great. That isn't what I asked for. I asked if anyone knew of any good multi art organizations with reasonable fees. If anyone does please post, if you just want to convince me that I don't need one, don't waste your own time trying. I've been doing it over 20 years, I've been both ways, and I prefer organizations.

Steve Fowler[

QUOTE=Kaoru]Hi!

Well, to become recognised, you need to just be good at what you do, and be a decent teacher. Word will spread if you are fair, a good teacher, and are not claiming to be stuff like 10th dan, soke or whatever.

Some of those multi-art organisations have the most stupid "sensei" as members claiming to be soke of this or that and 10th dan. Do you want to be associated with that kind of garbage? That's what could happen if you want to be "recognised" by some multi-art organisation.

You don't need to be recognised. That's mainly an ego thing. Just train, teach and enjoy your students and get the proper grading though your own art's organisation. (Am also wondering if you meant getting graded by such an organisation too. It wasn't too clear to me. Sorry. I got a bit confused. Not meant to offend. Just forget the last bit if I erred.)

If you look for recognition, it will elude you as it should.

And a 'certificate?" Why don't you just get certified in your art? You should seek proper certification from your art's organisation. Some strange organisation isnt going to provide that. And, they can't promote you either, if they do not teach your art. Where did you get that idea, if this is what you mean?[/QUOTE]

Lord_Yong

11-24-2004, 20:10

Of my own instructors, none are left. For my last few dan ranks I traveled almost 4 hours to train and test because there was no one here high enough. of my old instructors, I either passed them up or they moved or quit teaching. I am the highest ranking black belt within hours of my location. That's why I prefer to be affiliated, for advancement, recognition in a bigger area than my own, and networking. I am very comfortable with affiliation, and enjoy the membership.

Steve,

Where is your sensei (teacher) and his or her other students? Who is/was your teacher's teacher? And so on and so on..... This is where I would start to try and build an affilation.

It makes sense for a promotion board as they know the system and can spot trouble areas for the student. They can also be guest instructors for seminars or help build a joint-school work out.

Those blackbelts in your system are your yudanshikai.

Good luck!

Lord_Yong

11-24-2004, 20:14

After rereading your post, I realized that you didn't even read my initial post at all. There is no one who can promote me, none of my instructors were part of anything bigger than themselves, and I suffered the consequences of rank stagnation because of their isolation. That is another reason we will always remain part of something bigger than ourselves.

Hi!

Well, to become recognised, you need to just be good at what you do, and be a decent teacher. Word will spread if you are fair, a good teacher, and are not claiming to be stuff like 10th dan, soke or whatever.

Some of those multi-art organisations have the most stupid "sensei" as members claiming to be soke of this or that and 10th dan. Do you want to be associated with that kind of garbage? That's what could happen if you want to be "recognised" by some multi-art organisation.

You don't need to be recognised. That's mainly an ego thing. Just train, teach and enjoy your students and get the proper grading though your own art's organisation. (Am also wondering if you meant getting graded by such an organisation too. It wasn't too clear to me. Sorry. I got a bit confused. Not meant to offend. Just forget the last bit if I erred.)

If you look for recognition, it will elude you as it should.

And a 'certificate?" Why don't you just get certified in your art? You should seek proper certification from your art's organisation. Some strange organisation isnt going to provide that. And, they can't promote you either, if they do not teach your art. Where did you get that idea, if this is what you mean?

Kaoru

11-24-2004, 23:25

That's exactly the drivel I thought I addressed and tried to divert people away from. Like I said, it's a personal choice, and my choice is to retain affiliation for the purposes I mentioned. If you feel that organizations are just a bunch of self proclaimed sokes, that's great. That isn't what I asked for.

You know, you are pretty impolite. Go look in the Baffling Budo forum at e-budo before opening your mouth. These types of organisations are a huge subject of contension there. Many of these multi-arts orgs are full of those who claim sokeship or gave themselves high rank in whatever art. Some even claim to be soke of dead Ryuha, such as the dead Koga/Iga Ryuhas. Do you want to be associated with people like that? I wouldn't. No way.

I asked if anyone knew of any good multi art organizations with reasonable fees. If anyone does please post, if you just want to convince me that I don't need one, don't waste your own time trying. I've been doing it over 20 years, I've been both ways, and I prefer organizations.

What is your art? You give no info in your profile. The more you try to be recognised, the less you will be. Who cares what multi-organisation you belong to? It is NOT important. What IS important, is that you belong to the proper organisation of YOUR ART. A multi-art org. will not give you legitimacy or whatever it is you want.(Still am not sure what it is you want from such a thing.)

Kaoru

11-24-2004, 23:28

Kaoru

11-25-2004, 12:58

What Chris-san said.

He said it the best! I think you should listen to him. :) What he said makes good sense.

Lord_Yong

11-25-2004, 21:45

Guys, I appreciate the advice, but please read my posts before you answer with stuff I've already addressed. NONE of my original instructors are still involved in martial arts or live in this area. This is not an area many people move to and settle. People live here for a few years and leave generally. There is NO ONE above me. Everyone I've trained with has shut down, moved, or stopped doing martial arts. Any relationship I would have with a higher authority will have to be established externally, thus the need for affiliation.

Steve Fowler

Steve
If I where in yur shoes I would do several things
First keep the relationship alive with your original instructor he deserve it and so do you.
Then find someone to learn some thing new from.
Then for affiliations I would either use who my teacher is with or who my old instructor is with.
Remaining teachable is a key element in being a great martial artist.
There are a ton of Organizations out there I have been a member of a bunch over the years they are all a pain in the behind and our student dont care who we are with as long as we can teach them that is all they care about.
some of tha orginazations I have been a member of.
AAU Karate
AAU TKD
USAKF
IOGKF
USJI
Fugakukai
USJA
Kwanmukan
Zendokai
United Fighting Arts Federation
Mushinbudokan

Lord_Yong

11-25-2004, 21:53

What is actually impolite is to harp on someone about something that isn't even related to what they've asked. To insinuate that because I search for a mixed martial art organization to join, that I am comfortable with affiliation with self-proclaimed sokes and such is a little pretentious of you I think. I have a feeling you are a bit egotistical, and your posts indicate to me that you are a bit of a control freak. I have no qualms about joining a good mma organization who has good standards and reputable officers. Everyone has their own thing and their own preferences, get that through your head. Because you've seen a few mma organizations with self proclaimed whatevers, means very little to me. I've seen them too, theyre everywhere. There is NO organization for my style because my style is a MIXED style. It irks me when I have to get on here and repeat myself constantly over something that doesn't even have to do with the advice I asked for. I'm really not concerned about your sweeping judgments of all MMA associations, I'm concerned with my own proper advancement and credentials. The funny thing is that anyone who has good, solid international credentials and the skill to back it up could easily balk at you, the same way you have done me. I could easily say "Well, if you've got skill and don't have international credentials, you must be an isolated, homegrown martial artist, a backyard Bruce Lee (ette) and we don't deal with those, we like people with verifiable records. Why can't people just back off of criticizing everyone else, especially when it isn't even asked for? As far as impolite, anyone can read your very first snooty post and see that you are a bit of a trouble maker, and more than a bit disrespectful. I'm not real concerned about what you think, just thought I'd address it since you've been so critical of me, so that everyone can see the flip side. As closed minded as you are, I probably won't respond to you again, I don't see the point.

Steve Fowler.

You know, you are pretty impolite. Go look in the Baffling Budo forum at e-budo before opening your mouth. These types of organisations are a huge subject of contension there. Many of these multi-arts orgs are full of those who claim sokeship or gave themselves high rank in whatever art. Some even claim to be soke of dead Ryuha, such as the dead Koga/Iga Ryuhas. Do you want to be associated with people like that? I wouldn't. No way.

What is your art? You give no info in your profile. The more you try to be recognised, the less you will be. Who cares what multi-organisation you belong to? It is NOT important. What IS important, is that you belong to the proper organisation of YOUR ART. A multi-art org. will not give you legitimacy or whatever it is you want.(Still am not sure what it is you want from such a thing.)

Lord_Yong

11-25-2004, 21:57

After re-reading this, thanks for taking the time to post, however, it totally doesn't address what I had originally asked. Every association you named is style specific, including UFAF, which is only for Chuck Norris schools. As stated several times, I am looking for a good universal organization or MMA association. For one reason or another I have not found exactly what I am looking for, either due to low standards with self proclaimed founders, or because they want to siphon too much profit from my school in return for their certifications.

Some organizations that are examples of what I am looking for, but not acceptable in one or another are:

National College of Martial Arts
World Black Belt Bureau
Combat Practitioner's Association
Independent Martial Arts Federation

Steve
If I where in yur shoes I would do several things
First keep the relationship alive with your original instructor he deserve it and so do you.
Then find someone to learn some thing new from.
Then for affiliations I would either use who my teacher is with or who my old instructor is with.
Remaining teachable is a key element in being a great martial artist.
There are a ton of Organizations out there I have been a member of a bunch over the years they are all a pain in the behind and our student dont care who we are with as long as we can teach them that is all they care about.
some of tha orginazations I have been a member of.
AAU Karate
AAU TKD
USAKF
IOGKF
USJI
Fugakukai
USJA
Kwanmukan
Zendokai
United Fighting Arts Federation
Mushinbudokan

David Craik

11-26-2004, 13:23

I'm a little confused. If your art is unknown to the certifying body, how can they issue a certification? Seems to me like a Karate organization certifying a Judo or Gung-Fu school. Don't get me wrong - nothing against your art or skill, I just don't understand. A certificate or ranking means nothing except within the art which it has been awarded. A Shodan in XYZ school of Karate means nothing except within the XYZ dojo. Similarly, most of the certifying bodies I've seen which accept all styles are simply profit oriented mutual admiration societies, whose certificates mean nothing. Have you thought of entering MMA tournaments and getting recognition for your art that way?

But, I know this isn't what you asked. So, how about:

United Fighting Systems (http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/index.html)

United States Martial Arts Association (http://www.mararts.org/membership/meminfo.shtml)

International Combat Association (http://www.combat.nu/index.htm)

ATAMA (http://www.atama.us/)

Dunno if any of these are what you might be looking for, but a search of the net turns up hordes of multi-art organizations, and I am regrettably ignorant of such things. Each of the schools I attended was certified by the umbrella organization which oversees that particular art, or belonged to no organization that I was aware of.

As an aside, Ms. Hall is far from being a "control freak" or egotistical. On the contrary, she's one of the nicest people you'd ever want to talk to. Most non-style specific certifying organizations are simply frauds and rank-mills, and she recognizes this fact. Let's steer clear of the ad hominem attacks.

You said the director of your current organization is very old...will he have no replacement when he passes on?

David Craik

11-26-2004, 13:44

I just checked my son's (successful) MMA school for ideas and they have no affiliations. Apparently their "certification" comes from imparting good, workable skills to the students, word of mouth, and their performance on the mat in competition. Go figure.

Sorry couldn't be of help.

Lord_Yong

11-26-2004, 16:26

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check into them. As for the "attacks" mentioned, maybe some people should steer clear of trying to pigeon hole things or people they aren't familiar with, and be a little more helpful if they intend to reply at all. Just an idea.

I'm a little confused. If your art is unknown to the certifying body, how can they issue a certification? Seems to me like a Karate organization certifying a Judo or Gung-Fu school. Don't get me wrong - nothing against your art or skill, I just don't understand. A certificate or ranking means nothing except within the art which it has been awarded. A Shodan in XYZ school of Karate means nothing except within the XYZ dojo. Similarly, most of the certifying bodies I've seen which accept all styles are simply profit oriented mutual admiration societies, whose certificates mean nothing. Have you thought of entering MMA tournaments and getting recognition for your art that way?

But, I know this isn't what you asked. So, how about:

United Fighting Systems (http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/index.html)

United States Martial Arts Association (http://www.mararts.org/membership/meminfo.shtml)

International Combat Association (http://www.combat.nu/index.htm)

ATAMA (http://www.atama.us/)

Dunno if any of these are what you might be looking for, but a search of the net turns up hordes of multi-art organizations, and I am regrettably ignorant of such things. Each of the schools I attended was certified by the umbrella organization which oversees that particular art, or belonged to no organization that I was aware of.

As an aside, Ms. Hall is far from being a "control freak" or egotistical. On the contrary, she's one of the nicest people you'd ever want to talk to. Most non-style specific certifying organizations are simply frauds and rank-mills, and she recognizes this fact. Let's steer clear of the ad hominem attacks.

You said the director of your current organization is very old...will he have no replacement when he passes on?

David Craik

11-26-2004, 16:44

I have spoken with Kaoru and she did not mean her remarks to be specifically directed at you. Unless I have missed something, she did not say that you were one of these 23rd-dan soke types, just that many of the organizations out there are populated by them. I, too, would be leery of joining an organization like this, and there are bunches of them. I believe that you two may have gotten off on the wrong foot due to misunderstanding. Re-read her original post calmly, and I think you will find you may have misinterpreted it. Now let's all play nice.

I hope you find a good organization, and wish you success in your martial art. Some of the mixed martial arts have really opened my eyes to new techniques and skills that I have been lacking in my previous arts. Best of luck to you, and I hope to see more posts on how it is going.

It's not the subject of this thread, I know, but can you tell us a little about your art? I'm very interested in learning of various styles. Maybe could start a new thread...

Jeff C.

11-29-2004, 17:35

Steve,

Gentle reminder: please sign ALL of your posts with your name. With that said, lighten up man!

I have been a member of the United States Martial Arts Association. I am no longer (in spite of them refusing to remove all of my information from their site). I strongly recommend that you do not consider them, due to highly questionable practices concerning the selling of ranks, and other things I will not go into here.

Another one you might try has a similar-sounding name, but is a totally different organization, encompassing multiple systems: United States Martial Arts Federation, www.usmaf.org. It is a "sister org" of the USJJF, but again it consists of a largely diverse group of non-jujitsu systems. I am the vice president of the organization, and thus am partial to it. ;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

John Bennett

11-29-2004, 22:09

Steve, people here are trying to help you. They can't do that with vauge information on your part.

You say you want belt rankings. Then you say you want to join some "mixed martial arts" association. What MMA association awards belts? Honestly I don't know of any MMA ranking associations of any kind.

Are you wanting rank for you, or just your students?

Do you want insurance?

You have haven't even told us what kind of martial art you teach, shoot fighting? jeet kun do? Muay Thai? Sambo? what?

Like Jeff said, your best bet is probably the http://www.usmaf.org

With them you get insurance, certificates for your students, membership in a truely national org with their website listing, patches & tshirts and such, legitimization of your own rank, partnering with a ton of international organizations, and more.

If none of that matters to you, you really have no need to join an organization. Most MMA schools don't.

SenseiMayer

12-03-2004, 22:02

I've tried to follow along with this banter as best I could, however what you describe is exactlly what Dr Jerry Beasley was formed under his Independant association. Check out AIKIA.com and follow the info for his mixed martial arts association. Their fees are cheap and you get world recognition. Plus, its board includes Dr. Beasley, Joe Lewis, and Bill Wallace. What more could you ask for. Good Luck :karate:

Jim

12-11-2004, 06:06

Why do you need an organisation at all?

jakmak52

12-17-2004, 18:40

Here's some reputable links that may interest you:

NASKA (http://www.naska.com/)

USMAF (http://www.usmaf.org/index.htm)

Kukkiwon (http://www.wtf.org/main.htm)

Joe Lewis Fighting System (http://www.joelewiskarate.com/)

American Karate Association (http://www.akakarate.com/)

Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (http://www.superfoot.com/)

Hope these may be of some useful 411. :)

jakmak52

12-17-2004, 18:55

You know, you are pretty impolite. Go look in the Baffling Budo forum at e-budo before opening your mouth. These types of organisations are a huge subject of contension there. Many of these multi-arts orgs are full of those who claim sokeship or gave themselves high rank in whatever art. Some even claim to be soke of dead Ryuha, such as the dead Koga/Iga Ryuhas. Do you want to be associated with people like that? I wouldn't. No way.

What is your art? You give no info in your profile. The more you try to be recognised, the less you will be. Who cares what multi-organisation you belong to? It is NOT important. What IS important, is that you belong to the proper organisation of YOUR ART. A multi-art org. will not give you legitimacy or whatever it is you want.(Still am not sure what it is you want from such a thing.)

I don't see any impoliteness, just frustration on the post's answers to Lord_Yong's inquiry. It's important to him.....

Rudy W. Timmerman

12-24-2004, 01:29

I have read the posts on this question, and the initial request was for an answer to a simple question. Instead, most of you offered something entirely different than the original poster asked. He did not ask for your opinions on associations, and he restated that several times before he became a bit edgy... small wonder.

I agree that many organizations are not helpful, and many more are just in it for the money; however, I dare say that this is not true for EVERY org. Like choosing a school, you must be very careful to choose an organization; hence, the origninal question asked appears not only valid, but quite necessary.

When I founded the National Korean Martial Arts Association in 1973, I did so with the intent to assist people with training and certification. I still hold fast to my original purpose, and I do not hand out certification as if it were candy. In fact, I have in fact refused to recognize certification from at least one of the organizations mentioned in this thread because IMHO it issues certification rather loosely.

I get just a bit miffed to have folks automatically think that ALL organizations are worthless, and I think he has every right to feel the way he does about uninvited views on the topic. Because NKMAA deals with Korean arts, I am not likely to be of much help to you; however, I sincerely hope you will find a suitable organization my friend. I admire you for sticking to your own belief, and quite frankly I saw no disrespect in your posts. Frustration perhaps, but then I can understand that given the lack of answers to a simple question.