Why is the Gi so important to Bjj?

[rubberband]

In another post on Bjj Training Cliff brought up the 3 phases of Bjj training as laid out by Helio... gi training, self defense, and vale tudo... my questions are: Why is gi training so important? What do you gain from gi training that no gi training doesn't give you?

(disclaimer: since I tend to come across poorly; please note that these are sincere questions written in the spirit of seeking understanding)

thanks, steve

[Erik]

Your writing seems fine with me. No problem, pal.

The gi makes a big difference because it soaks up sweat, adds friction, and provides grips for the hands.

These are big things. Without a gi, you can slide in chokes under the chin because of the slickness of the sweat and there is far less to grab. You must rely upon over- and underhooks far more and not upon gripping with the hands.

You cannot grab clothing which is a big deal in grappling for throws, armbars, controlling the legs while passing guard, etc.

There are also about 3x the number of techniques you can do while grabbing the gi than there are without a gi.

Some people wonder about whether they ought to train with a gi considering that people don't wear those on the street. I believe it's worthwhile because of the greater number of techniques. It makes more sense, too, if you live somewhere cold enough that people wear jackets. Out here in CA it's usually warm and people get by with T-Shirts and often just shorts, so gi-less makes more sense, at least if you plan to have a drama during summer.

I think training in BDUs makes the best sense, but that's just me.

[John Bennett]

Why is gi training so important? What do you gain from gi training that no gi training doesn't give you?

Like Erik said. Gi training is more realistic for self defense.

Being able to use a guy's t-shirt and pants against him is important. Knowing how to counter having your clothing used against you is also important.

Training with a gi is also more practical. They are designed to reisist being ripped to shreds as would happen if you trained in street clothes.

[Erik]

Do any of you civilian guys train in BDUs or some sort of clothing with a western collar instead of the bathrobe-collar on a gi?

Just wondering.

[nythius]

Main reason for training with the gi? Escaping from chokes. In the begining according tothe gracies you're supposed to train with the gi and learn the techniques and how to defend them. Once you have learned how to escape a choke or joint lock while wearing a gi, escaping without one is comparatively simple. :cool:

[Erik]

I don't know about "comparatively simple." Just more like western wrestling. I can stop guys in a gi who destroy me without one because they're fitter, faster, and used to emphasizing center-of-gravity control.

[TonyU]

Do any of you civilian guys train in BDUs or some sort of clothing with a western collar instead of the bathrobe-collar on a gi?

Just wondering.
Well I'm not a civilian per se, but I do train in a variety of clothing including but not limited to BDU's.

[Erik]

Hi Tony.

What else do you train in to get used to various types of clothing?

-E

[Cliff Hargrave]

I train with a gi, because both places I train BJJ at are mainly gi schools. The way it has been explained to me is it makes your escapes better and you learn the "technical" things better. If you can escape a pin when someone has "handles" then you should be able to escape alot easier without them. The Brazilians think that if you start with no-gi then you learn sloppy technique.

I don't like gi training and wish I could train no-gi all the time. I understand the reasons behind it, I just don't prefer it. I like no-gi because it's a tighter game and faster paced. I think my biggest gripe is the guys I train with are all tournament fighters. I have no interest in that and I train for my own personal enjoyment and self defense. I seriously doubt I will be doing spider guard sweeps on the job.

But since these are the only games in town, I wear my gi, and my old tattered faded blue belt.

[John Bennett]

I like no-gi because it's a tighter game and faster paced.

Tell you truth.

You like it because you can get away with more sloppiness.
:D

[Luebbers]

This is an interesting question because I just read an interview with Eddie Bravo about how much he hates the gi.

Traditionally, the Brazilians have insisted on the gi initially for all of the reasons listed above. They say it makes you more technical, defense is harder, escapes are harder, and it's uncomfortable.

Bravo is leading in a new generation of grapplers that I think might start to change the way people look at gi vs no-gi training. At his school, he starts from no-gi day one. He feels that transitioning from gi to no-gi is not as simple as most traditional schools lead you to believe. And, if you want to do gi, BJJ compeition, that's fine. But, he says, for submission grappling tournaments (like Abu Dhabi) and NHB fights, grapplers are doing themselves a disservice with the gi and are developing bad habits. He feels that learning without the gi from day one will help you develop a more active, faster, more aggressive ground game that is necessary to gain a submission victory these days. I find his theory intriguing, but all we can really do is wait, and see if these new training methods pay off in competition.

[John Bennett]

he says, for submission grappling tournaments (like Abu Dhabi) and NHB fights, grapplers are doing themselves a disservice with the gi and are developing bad habits. ...learning without the gi from day one will help you develop a more active, faster, more aggressive ground game that is necessary to gain a submission victory these days.

That may be true. But one fundamental and important difference exists. He is training to win submission grappling tournaments, not fights.

Where I live people don't walk around shirt-less, in speedos and board shorts.

I believe BJJ with the gi has the best balance of self-defense training utilizing a sportive component that doesn't stray too far from into sportive gamesmanship.

I think it is a waste to throw out the very effective and useful techniques one can learn from practicing with the gi such as collar chokes, turn-overs, and gripping techniques.

I'm more interested in learning how to win fights than becoming a grappling super-star. I'm pretty certain I'll never enter another grappling competition. The possibility that I'll get in a street fight with some guy wearing a shirt and boots is much higher.

My goals may differ from those of other people. To each his own.

[rubberband]

Thanks for the replies...

How do you feel about the arguement that no gi techniques can be used while wearing a gi, but gi techniques are not as effective when the gi is off?

thanks, lets keep this going, steve

[Erik]

Where I live people don't walk around shirt-less, in speedos and board shorts.They do here. :D

I don't believe that learning no-gi is trivial after learning with a gi. There are some key differences like agility and dealing with sweaty slick bodies. The gi provides a lot of friction and soaks up sweat.

An example: One way of escaping being side-controlled is to get double underhooks, throw the arms up and scoot yourself out, hopefully to your knees really quickly. I can pull this off without a gi but with one and there's a lot more friction, so moving our chests away from each other is far more difficult.

Just a thought.

[nythius]

By trainign witht he gi and without i believe you also learn some important resourceful skills, such as when you can't quite grab a leg or arm you can sometimes utilize the clothing to climb your hand up onto the limb or at least temporarily neutralize it. While many ppl argue that this training is not needed, I beg to differ, in that the same people insist that practicing a kicking art liek tkd is innefective because one does not practice kicking low and as such will not in a pressure situation. BJJ more than any other art has shown me that to be able to use somethign under pressure, at full speed, against resistance you need to first ingrain it into you're habitual skills, not merely have a passive knowledge of the concept.

[seminole]

I am a little bit older (40), and I find that gi training slows things down quite a bit and helps me perform better technique. I really enjoy gi training over no-gi training. Just my $.02.

Anthony James

[Skye]

I think it's best to train in both.

(Preferably me in no gi, and my opponent in a gi)

[Andrew Green]

Escapes more technical - Well the opposite side of that is that without a gi your submissions must be more technical as you can't rely on handles to prevent easy escapes...

As for self-defence, I'd say you want to be able to move fast and explosive, get the job done right away. No-gi wins for that hands down...

What a gi DOES do IMO is make the gap that comes with size a little easier to manage. Smaller guys can actually hold on without being overpowered all the time.

[John Bennett]

As for self-defence, I'd say you want to be able to move fast and explosive, get the job done right away. No-gi wins for that hands down...

I disagree. Jiu-jitsu is "the gentle art". It's about learning to use minimum strength for maximum effect. Sportive grappling without clothes as is practiced in "no-gi" training does not encourage this.

I'm not saying that there aren't occasions in self-defense when one needs to be fast and explosive. There are.

I contend that practicing for speed and explosivity on a regular basis reinforces bad habits that are actually a hindrance toward developing one's jiu-jitsu to a higher, more effective level.

[Andrew Green]

No gi has all the slow deliberate stuff too ;)

But the trick is knowing when to be fast and explosive, and not only that, but being able to deal with someone that is fast and agressive.

[ArtOfAccuracy]

4 reasons ...

Lapelles ...

End of sleeves ...

Pants on quadriceps ...

And the bunch of pants you can grab right at their cafe ...

(Lapelle chokes, Open guard, Guard pass, etc....)