Colored Belt Ranks, easy or hard?

[Lord_Yong]

I know how I feel about this, but thought I'd ask for some opinions. I was recently told by a very famous 9th degree black belt that if any student under black knows the requirements I ask for and has been at their rank for 3 months, I should never turn them down for testing. He said "Tell them I'm very proud of you, and promote them. Never say no." This comes from a guy who has been teaching for 50 years. How do you guys run your colored belt testings? Is it sure victory once you set them up for testing, or can they fail?

Steve Fowler

[TKD_JHR]

Lord_Youg, I understand why he said that, color belts are still "green" in the martial Arts, belt testings enable them to be rewarded for there hard work. I've seen what happens when a student of the color belt rank doesn't get tested for a long time, they usualy loose interest and quit. Test the student, and if you want them to wait longer for a Black Belt then simply add colors to increase the time. I can't overemphesize the importance of testing every two to three months.

John Roberson

[JujitsuFreak]

I often wondered that myself. Old McDojo I attended handed out colored belts like candy. Same with just about every school I previously attended. It was almost a sure bet that once you were up for testing, you were gonna be promoted... for the simple reason of keeping the income flowing, I later realized.

I found the school Im at now and one aspect that intriqued me is that my teacher has actually failed students. I assume he thought they were ready, but come test time, they choke. I saw a couple choke in my last testing. One guy was going up for purple and was politely denied his next rank, was told he needed at least another month. For the next month that guy trained incredibly hard and good for him. Another student, woman, was also politely denied her brown for an undeclared amount of time. - Same test! I respect a little toughness when it comes to testing... both these students were, in my opinion, rightfully denied - they could've been sharper. Shows the intent of the instructor, I think... that he's not willing to just hand out belts to just anyone.

I agree that up to black a student is still 'green', which makes sense since the saying goes: the real learning begins at black.

[cajunfu]

We test people when they're ready. Actually, we don't have formal testing anymore. We test people every day in class. When they should be promoted, they are. It has motivated the slackers, and rewarded the deserving. All promotions are reviewed by the instructor board, and Sifu has final say, of course. If a person shows skill, good work ethics, and is overall ready for a new rank, then they should have it. This doesn't usually happen every three mos., but we've had one or two.

[nythius]

Ya, i'm totallly all for the casual promotion based on your everyday performance. For now i'm stuck in the formal testing system,but from a student's stand point I woudl rather see it the other way because i see alot of ppl deserving of belts they don't have as well as other ppl with belts they haven't earned. Perhaps for the leary you coudl mabe even find an intermediate system with grading "periods" so as to cover more grounds and not inconvenience anyone or hold them back, as well as eliminate the kind of ppl who float in class sometimes, but at the same time keep things semi formal.

[Lawrence]

H there.

I don't do formal gradings persay. I train and others train with me. I don't look at the amount of time they have been training but rather how their attitude, focus and general movement has improved. I look for a distinct improvement in my students, when someone shows that they have stepped up a gear, I present them with a certificate and a book (something of interest to them, e.g. if they are particualy keen when training with staff, I might get Hatsumi's Stick fighting, or if they are interested in the history of Japanese arts, I might get them something by Draeger. But it is always something personal to them.

I only use a white belt (for students in general) when they have been issued with a 3rd Kyu I encourage them to wear a green belt, when they are technically proficient I award them a 1st Kyu and they wear a brown belt. Then over time as their understanding as to why things are done as they are and they find their own techncal answers I issue them with a shodan.

This really basic way has encouraged people to train for the sake of self improvement, not for rank promotion.

Personally I don't think that people should be tested on their technical ability. I have seen too many people gain shodan or nidan through technical merit but their attitude stinks! The improvement and development of the individual, their taking responsibiltiy for their own training and the understanding of relaxed effortless movement is more important that their ability to collect techniques.

People handing out grades just to keep their students happy and attentive are going to end up with high grade students who aren't quite up to scratch. When this generation education complete novices you end up with some very poor budoka. That is what I have seen anyway, as two of my old instructors worked in the same way. It is a shame to see a good system go down the pan because the instructor wants to be nice and reward their students and handing out grades is the first step in this direction.

Take care and keep training.

Lawrence Fisher

[kmtsd]

I think time requirements should be a part of testing...in our school we test every three months, if you are testing you are generally going to pass--the catch is we don't let you test if we don't think you are ready. That way students are not embarassed during testing. The test is seen as a chance to demonstrate what you have learned -if you don't know your forms or basics then you're going to feel pretty inadequate demonstrating them in front of everyone. As the students get closer to black belt, our expectations of them including their attitude, dedication, and skill level become more important. Recently we had to turn down 3 students who were up to test for blackbelt...they were children, 11 years old, the parents were very upset. We lost $900 by turning them down...but atleast all the other students (adults and children) know that we're not going to just handout blackbelts. I wasn't sure if they would quit, but as it turned out all three are still training and they are training harder then ever. I know they will have a great test in 6 months and their blackbelts will mean more for it.

[DragonMind]

Let me toss out another way of approaching this whole subject. Ranking via belts should reflect attainment of a specific set of skills; physical, intellectual and spiritual. One of those should be the ability to handle stress (testing).

The real problem, as I see it, is that there is a serious disconnect in most schools between curriculum, testing and rank. What I would propose to you is that each rank in your school be considered as a course of study. You should lay out all the requirements to "pass" this course, including "homework" (practice). Then you should design a set of lesson plans that will take the student from beginning to end, teaching them everything needed. At the end of that should be a test. That test should be done internally within the school, not attended by parents, etc. Passing that testing awards you your new rank and you move on to the next "course". You can also have a public "test" after the real one so the students can show off their skills (and so they can be relaxed) and then publicly award them their new rank. That makes testing stressful enough, but not overwhelmingly so.

This approach has a lot of benefits. Students know exactly what is expected of them, how long it will take and where they are in that progression. Instruction is smoother, better organized, less dependant on a particular person and focused on task. Parents can see exactly what their child is learning and where they can help. Testings occur at rational points rather than random or calendar driven. It also makes absorbing students who change styles easier because you can just run down the lessons and see where the appropriate place is for them to start. Rank is determined by where that point is. Down side - some instructors don't like that much structure or will argue that we have new students all the time and we don't want them to wait to start. Weak arguments, both, and if anyone is interested in discussing this more, let me know.

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll add my vote for the system of observing the student every day in class, and promoting them according to the ability and knowledge they display on an ongoing basis.

Caveats - this probably wouldn't work so well for kids. Also note that I'm used to training environments where all ranks train together, and where not much attention is actually paid to rank anyway. That may make a difference in my outlook.

[_Xi]

Thats one of the things i didnt like at my tae kwon doe dojo. Seemed to me, that a lot of these people were just "getting passed on". A lot of red belts i could beat, being a green belt, that really says something. Not that im good, just that money talks.

[cajunfu]

Actually, it works very well for our kids classes, (8-12).

[DragonMind]

I'll add my vote for the system of observing the student every day in class, and promoting them according to the ability and knowledge they display on an ongoing basis.

Caveats - this probably wouldn't work so well for kids. Also note that I'm used to training environments where all ranks train together, and where not much attention is actually paid to rank anyway. That may make a difference in my outlook.
The biggest problem with that approach is the appearance of randomness in promotions. A formal testing makes it clear that the student has met all criteria for promotion and is performing at an acceptable level. It also gives a student a goal to shoot for and a timeframe to work in. Promotions on the spot leave the student wondering and can build resentment when it is perceived that they are being ignored for promotion. Americans, in general, are not good at delayed gratification and need short term goals to stay motivated. The kyu/gup rank system provides that and helps teach patience and discipline (when used properly, of course).

[Lawrence]

Hi there.

The biggest problem with that approach is the appearance of randomness in promotions. A formal testing makes it clear that the student has met all criteria for promotion and is performing at an acceptable level. It also gives a student a goal to shoot for and a timeframe to work in.

Surely that depends on the size of your class and the general framework to which you work.

Personally, I think that grade is nothing more than a communication between teacher and student. Nothing more.

If the student is in need of rank and promotion on a regular basis then they are training for the wrong purpose. Over time rank will be awarded when the communication is required. Before then: train.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

[J4d3]

at the dojo i train at we test every 2 or 3 months.theres written tests we take as well as demonstrations of technique and everything.at this dojo someone isn't going to get a rank if they haven't earned it, but also if your better than your next rank up its possible to test for a higher rank than that.i guess the idea is that people have the ranks they really deserve.i as a student feel it works well enough.there are test fees tho i'm not a huge fan of that.

[Bugeisha]

We've got a slightly different system that seems to work for the most part. For the colored belts, you are eligible to test three months after the last time you tested. If you test, you are pretty well guranteed to pass (exceptions such as a bad attitude and what have you nonwithstanding). However, we do have a firewall of sorts. If you are eligible, you still need to pretest before you can test. The pretest is a one-on-one with one of the instructors that covers the testing material. Basically, the pre-test is the real test. If you do not pass the pre-test, you do not test. We run the student through their paces as far as knowledge and technique at the pre-test. The testing itself is really just a recongnition of the rank that they have earned, as well as a test of attitude and spirit. This way we can keep morale high and allow students to save face if they fail, while keeping the standards for promotion high.
Blackbelt testing is a whole other story, but that's for a different thread...

[nythius]

[QUOTE=DragonMind]Let me toss out another way of approaching this whole subject. Ranking via belts should reflect attainment of a specific set of skills; physical, intellectual and spiritual. One of those should be the ability to handle stress (testing).

The real problem, as I see it, is that there is a serious disconnect in most schools between curriculum, testing and rank. What I would propose to you is that each rank in your school be considered as a course of study. You should lay out all the requirements to "pass" this course, including "homework" (practice). Then you should design a set of lesson plans that will take the student from beginning to end, teaching them everything needed. At the end of that should be a test. That test should be done internally within the school, not attended by parents, etc. Passing that testing awards you your new rank and you move on to the next "course".

The problem I see with that is that it's too rigid. And if you liken it all to a school enivironment it becomes work. To me, the motivation has to come frmo within. Also, the fact that it's so rigid is most instructors aren't hard enough to uphold this style of promotion and people wind up getting "pushed through."

With informal promotions, students are encouraged to work hard everyday and you don't get the "student so-and-so is a green belt and gets his *** kicked," and on the flip-side of the coinyou don't have people who feel held and(and maybe even drop out because of it).

[DragonMind]

The problem I see with that is that it's too rigid. And if you liken it all to a school enivironment it becomes work. To me, the motivation has to come frmo within. Also, the fact that it's so rigid is most instructors aren't hard enough to uphold this style of promotion and people wind up getting "pushed through."

With informal promotions, students are encouraged to work hard everyday and you don't get the "student so-and-so is a green belt and gets his *** kicked," and on the flip-side of the coinyou don't have people who feel held and(and maybe even drop out because of it).
Forgive me, but I think you're confusing structured with rigid. Yes, this is very structured but the student benefits greatly. Rigid is what many of us had to go through in our dungeon dojo days: you will do this exactly this way at this time, you will say sir to every fart the instructor issues, etc.

The whole problem is people getting pushed through and structure is the answer not the cause. As much as I hate it, do you know WHY McDojos have so many students? They run a highly structured program. It's their standards that suck. What makes you think that an instructor who can't follow a little structure can handle the responsibility of unstructured promotions with total fairness? It's the lack of judgement that makes bad promotions in either case.

I taught college for a number of years. I tried an experiment with two sections of a computer programming course I taught. One section had weekly assignments and regular deadlines. The other was given all of the possible assignments on the first day. The lectures were the same for both classes. The second class could turn their programs in at any time. In both classes, the final grade was determined by total points earned. The failure rate for the unstructured class was twice that of the structured one. When I asked the students what was wrong, the comments were almost universally that there wasn't enough structure to the course and they put off doing the assignments until too late. I tried this same approach for two years and the results never varied.

Changing hats for a minute to my business attire, who do you think Mom and Dad are going to want teaching their child: the instructor with a clear lesson plan and measurable standards that are enforced or the instructor who says their child will get promoted when he/she decides they should be?

Bottom line here: structure provides a means of developing self discipline, your approach requires they already have it.

[DragonMind]

If you are eligible, you still need to pretest before you can test. The pretest is a one-on-one with one of the instructors that covers the testing material. Basically, the pre-test is the real test. If you do not pass the pre-test, you do not test.
The details vary, but we're essentially talking about the same thing.

[kmtsd]

I agree with Barrry and Bugeisha...my school has a structured curriculum and promotion process. No one is promoted unless they have earned it...but you have to wait to test.... and I can understand the feelings of Dragonind and some others that you feel too much structure can be a hinderence... I think this feeling stems from the idea that students who pick up skills easily feel that they should advance more quickly than students who do not. As an athletic person, I quite clearly remember being capable of kicking red and blackbelts "butt" when I was only an orange belt. I felt at that time that I should learn more, faster than other orange belts next to me... but my instructor pointed out and now I have also come to agree that the journey to blackbelt is yours alone. That means that you should not be comparing yourself to those standing in front of you or behind you. You should only compare you to yourself...
there is always room for improvement no matter how "great" you are. :bow:

[cajunfu]

I think I opened a can of worms by saying that our kwoon doesn't promote on a schedule! I guess I should've made it more clear that when a student is promoted, they have the mental attitude that goes with the level they are attaining. Part of this means that at higher levels, they have come to understand that this is a personal journey, and stopped competing with others. We have very high standards, and teach a difficult system, so ranking every 3 or 4 months is rather unrealistic, though not impossible. Internal arts tend to place little emphasis on rank, so I can see how it may not work well for hard styles. I teach Okinawan Te to children,(8-12) and I have a version of this in place, but I also teach them a bit more watered down curriculum, and have many other awards to keep them motivated. We all have our way of doing what works for our school/system, and I think they are all good, as long as we never forget the most important people, our students.

[DragonMind]

I think I opened a can of worms by saying that our kwoon doesn't promote on a schedule! I guess I should've made it more clear that when a student is promoted, they have the mental attitude that goes with the level they are attaining. Part of this means that at higher levels, they have come to understand that this is a personal journey, and stopped competing with others. We have very high standards, and teach a difficult system, so ranking every 3 or 4 months is rather unrealistic, though not impossible. Internal arts tend to place little emphasis on rank, so I can see how it may not work well for hard styles. I teach Okinawan Te to children,(8-12) and I have a version of this in place, but I also teach them a bit more watered down curriculum, and have many other awards to keep them motivated. We all have our way of doing what works for our school/system, and I think they are all good, as long as we never forget the most important people, our students.
Not a can of worms but an interesting topic that a lot of people may not have thought of before. Less structured programs, such as yours, require a very special kind of teacher to make effective, and tends to be somewhat self-selective of the kinds of students that enter it. If it works for you, I am all for it. I tend to reflect a business-oriented approach based on my years as a professional educator and look at a systemic approach that can be reproduced with the average BB instructor who may be new to teaching/business.

[jeet kune do student]

I know how I feel about this, but thought I'd ask for some opinions. I was recently told by a very famous 9th degree black belt that if any student under black knows the requirements I ask for and has been at their rank for 3 months, I should never turn them down for testing. He said "Tell them I'm very proud of you, and promote them. Never say no." This comes from a guy who has been teaching for 50 years. How do you guys run your colored belt testings? Is it sure victory once you set them up for testing, or can they fail?

Steve Fowler
I feel that belts are only helpful in large classes and even then they promote cockyness. belts in my opinion cause more trouble then good. Bruce lee said belts are only good to hold you paints up and i believe that. Because most people just want the belts so they can so there friends and brag. I also believe uniforms are inproper because on the streets you not going to be wearing them. so i belive trainning in them hinders you more than it helps you.ranking system is improtant but harmful because students get to caught up in passing there belt test and they forget the fundamental mind set of martial arts and forget the real point is to defend your self not to get another color around your waste these is my outlook on belts.

[Patrick Hayes]

At my old dojo, tests were done individually rather than in groups, and were composed of a pre-test (evaluation) and formal test (demonstration). When a student felt ready to test for their next belt, they approached one of the sempai, who would then take them through all of the requirements for that level (as well as the requirements for all of the preceding levels). If they were ready, the sempai would recommend them to Sensei for their formal test; otherwise, the sempai gave them some things to work on and told them to try again later. Students who were given the go-ahead to test rarely failed, since they had already shown that they had reached a reasonable degree of proficiency in the requirements for their level, but occasionally, a student would choke during their formal test and Sensei would postpone the test for another day.

There was no time limit between tests exactly, although we have had some students who wanted to test every week, but I have yet to meet a student who could demonstrate all of the requirements for a new belt after only a week. I think this system works pretty well, but it does have its downsides. Students can get their black belts pretty quickly, maybe a little too quickly. Their black belt demonstrations look pretty good, but I do wonder how deep their knowledge and understanding of the techniques goes. If I could do it again, I think I probably should have spent another year really trying to master the basics (as closely as one can acheive mastery in a year, anyway) before deciding to test for shodan.

[Fletch1]

Failing them and telling them they need another month of training sounds like a joke to me. Are they so close that another month will get them ready? Or can you really accomplish that much in a month?

Colored belts in BJJ are so slow to be awarded, they are almost like Dan grades. Noone wants one before they are ready because it sucks to get smoked by a white belt on the mat.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Colored belts in BJJ are so slow to be awarded, they are almost like Dan grades. Noone wants one before they are ready because it sucks to get smoked by a white belt on the mat.

One of the many reasons I love BJJ.

The Brazilians have a saying that means no one wants a belt that doesn't "fit."