Wild claims in Martial Arts

[Cliff Hargrave]

Some other recent threads got me thinking about some of the more outrageous claims and stunts in Martial Arts. I got this from another forum and I don't remember where, but basically anyone that makes an outrageous claim can only be one of three things:

1. Nut job - really believes he can do it but can't do it. You know the mumbo jumbo, aura seeing, chi channeling, levitating, types. Most of these actually learned from the #2s and never realized they were being had.

2. Fraud - knows it's BS but lies about it to convince others. We know who these are :) Usually involves $$$ from seminars, books, tapes, etc. Only works on his own people and has tons of excuses when it doesn't work on someone else.

3. Legit - can really perform the claim, on anyone, most of the time, in a convincing way. Notice I didn't say all the time. A punch to the jaw can be demonstrated on anyone, works most of the time, but not everyone will be knocked out. However it works enough to be convincing as a legitimate technique.

So as martial arts consumers it's up to us to make the call when we are faced with outrageous claims. Remember the burden of proof is on them, not us.

[Mikey Triangles]

Good Point. Now to add a little example to definition:

Nut Job: Eric Bristol (http://www.streetcombat.8m.com/main.html)

Proof that he is a nutjob-
"During the Big Bang, the gaseous mass of energy exploded and all the planets and stars took shape. The universe was born. There were three types of energy that existed. There were the neutrons, the netrual energy. Then there was, the electrons, the negative energy. And there was the protons, the positive energy. The electrons, the negative energy accumalated and became a negative force. It developed awareness and understanding. It was called Satan. The protons, the positive energy, also accumulated became a positive force. It developed awareness and understanding. It was called God." (Pre-Genesis 1:21-1:25)"


More Proof-

Master Eric Bristol challenges Rickson Gracie. The following was sent to The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy, 1951 West Carson Street, Torrance, CA 90501 on 9/4/00

Dear Rickson Gracie and the Gracie family,

My name is Eric Bristol. I am founder of the Magician’s Network Self-Defense System of street combat. Though I am not well-known in the United States, I am well-known among the martial arts community in Switzerland and other parts of Europe. I’m writing to issue a challenge to Rickson Gracie. I am not unfamiliar to no-holds-barred matches since I have enter in several of them throughout Europe. I have won two of these competitions. I do not enter these tournaments as frequently as other fighters to preserve the secrecy of my style of combat. The more an individual demonstrates his fighting secrets in public, the more the system becomes ineffective since the secrets have become exposed for others to produce ways to counter them. In regards to my system, I have tried to be as low key as possible, demonstrating it only to a limited audience.

To prove my skills, I have enclosed with this letter copies of certification of my ability throughout the years as a martial artist. I hope they will be sufficient. Enclosed is also a contract written by me, and revised and edited by my lawyer. My name is already signed on the contract. The contract describes the provisions of my match with Rickson Gracie. The match will be a private match conducted at the Gracie’s own Jiujitsu academy in Torrance, California. I do not want a televised no-holds-barred match for the reasons I have stated before. I want North Americans to acknowledge the awesome efficiency of the style of M.N.S.S., but at the same time, I do not wish the expose it’s secrets to the general public. Defeating such a well-respected fighter as Rickson would definitely give great notoriety to my style though it will tarnish its effectiveness. However, at least one magazine reporter from such publications like “Black Belt Magazine” is allowed to be at the challenge. With your connections, I believe you can arrange to have several of them be there. However, no video cameras or any type of filming, or photography is allowed at the match.

What you will get in return for granting me this challenge is monentary compensation if Rickson is the winner. In the contract, I have agreed to pay 10,500 dollars to a third party. If I do not defeat Rickson Gracie in 30 seconds or less by a knockout or a tap out, then the Gracies family is paid the 10,500 dollars. Keep in mind, I may beat Rickson, but if I don’t defeat him in 30 seconds or less then the Gracies get the money. If I do defeat Rickson Gracie in less than 30 seconds, then nothing shall be paid to me. As you can see, there is nothing for you to lose. I have provided plenty of incentives for you to accept this challenge. Please reply promptly with a response.

Sincerely, Master Eric Bristol, Founder of M.N.S.S.


Movie? (http://streetcombat.8m.com/movie.html)



Fraud- Ashida Kim (http://www.ashidakim.com/)

Though he is arguably a nut job and a comedian, he is inarguably a fraud ;)

[J4d3]

i might have seen everyones auras at this seminar i attented.no one told me to and no one i've trained with has said anything about it.i was listening to the senseis talk about and then i just suddenly noticed there was a glow to them and there was actually a glow to everyone.BUT i didn't have any sleep the night before,and i had little to eat and i think i was on my 27th hour awake at that point.so i don't know.an ex co worker of mine said it was like a vision.he said the best way to have them is to get little sleep and little to eat and do a repetitive movement.in this case prior to seeing what i saw i was working on tai sabaki back and forth then had to stand still while the different instructors talked about different things.i'm not trying to impress anyone or anything and i kinda feel like everyone is going to think im crazy for saying all this happened.but i was just giving my little experience that may or may not be ki related.if anyone would like to give their opinion on it i'd like to hear it.

[Trounce]

i might have seen everyones auras at this seminar i attented.no one told me to and no one i've trained with has said anything about it.i was listening to the senseis talk about and then i just suddenly noticed there was a glow to them and there was actually a glow to everyone.BUT i didn't have any sleep the night before,and i had little to eat and i think i was on my 27th hour awake at that point.so i don't know.an ex co worker of mine said it was like a vision.he said the best way to have them is to get little sleep and little to eat and do a repetitive movement.in this case prior to seeing what i saw i was working on tai sabaki back and forth then had to stand still while the different instructors talked about different things.i'm not trying to impress anyone or anything and i kinda feel like everyone is going to think im crazy for saying all this happened.but i was just giving my little experience that may or may not be ki related.if anyone would like to give their opinion on it i'd like to hear it.

I don't want to sound like I'm ridiculing you or anything, but I can reproduce that effect on any object just by staring at it long enough. That means people, animals, furniture...

I'm assuming my furniture doesn't have ki energy, and I would assume that what you saw was just a natural phenominon from your lack of sleep.

We all wish we had some kind of special power, but some people take that wish way too far. First it's auras, next they're Jesus. :)

Jason Allen

[Mandeigh Wells]

well I wouldn't be so quick to denounce aura's.....when you start seeing colours rather than just the 'glow' it gets a bit interesting... :wink2:

[John Bennett]

if anyone would like to give their opinion on it i'd like to hear it.

Sleep deprivation is known to cause hallucinations.

The human mind is easily manipulated. Mood, consciousness and perception are the result of changes in brain chemistry. That chemistry can be altered so that extra-ordinary states of mood, consciousness and perception occur.

There's nothing magical about it.

The problem comes when people attribute these perfectly natural and understandable altered states to other causes such as aliens, conspiracies, magical energies, and super-natural entities.

If I deprive you of water for as little as three days, you can see God, I guarantee.

[Mikey Triangles]

Sleep deprivation is known to cause hallucinations.

The human mind is easily manipulated. Mood, consciousness and perception are the result of changes in brain chemistry. That chemistry can be altered so that extra-ordinary states of mood, consciousness and perception occur.

There's nothing magical about it.

The problem comes when people attribute these perfectly natural and understandable altered states to other causes such as aliens, conspiracies, magical energies, and super-natural entities.

If I deprive you of water for as little as three days, you can see God, I guarantee.


He he, you beat me to it.

Anyway that's why not sleeping, eating, and drinking enough are the best ways to have visions... unless ofcourse you eat something you're not supposed to :D

[John Bennett]

I work at a big state-run mental institution. I talk to people every day with bizarro brain chemistries and bizarro levels of physical brain injury.

It's not pretty, but is does serve as a constant reminder of why and how some people's reality can diverge so far from observable fact.

[Antares33]

Not to change the subject or anything, but the ad in the middle of that Hans Eric Bristol movie teaser page was for "The Sexual Kung-Fu Institute" :laugh:

[J4d3]

my only skepticism to the sleep deprivation thing is that i've gone with out sleep many times and even longer with out sleep than that time.i've been sick,severely dehydrated and i didn't sleep for about 48 hours atleast and i didn't see anything out of the ordinary.at any rate its not something i'm actively in persuit of.but man it would be nice to throw one fireball.i'b be all HADOUKEN! :hot:

[Dennis Monk]

i didn't sleep for about 48 hours atleast and i didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
1. Yeah 48 hours seems like a long time, especially if you have been awake the entire time. True sleep deprivation comes when a person in allowed to fall asleep for about 5 minutes and then made to wake up. This pattern going on for days on end, begins the true sleep deprivation and the effects that go along with it.


but man it would be nice to throw one fireball.i'b be all HADOUKEN! :hot:
2. You would burn your hand.

[DragonMind]

3. Legit - can really perform the claim, on anyone, most of the time, in a convincing way. Notice I didn't say all the time. A punch to the jaw can be demonstrated on anyone, works most of the time, but not everyone will be knocked out. However it works enough to be convincing as a legitimate technique.

So as martial arts consumers it's up to us to make the call when we are faced with outrageous claims. Remember the burden of proof is on them, not us.
My starting list of nominees are Wally Jay, Remy Presas (OK when he was still alive), Jhoon Rhee, Bong Soo Han, Hee Il Cho, Geoff Booth, and J.R. West. No offence meant to anyone not listed, this was just a quick start off the top of my head.

[KMRing]

My starting list of nominees are Wally Jay, Remy Presas (OK when he was still alive), Jhoon Rhee, Bong Soo Han, Hee Il Cho, Geoff Booth, and J.R. West. No offence meant to anyone not listed, this was just a quick start off the top of my head.

Hi Barry,
Out of curiosity, why is Remy Presas there? 20 years ago, our studio attended one of his weekend seminars, and then dabbled in Arnis periodically afterwards - no formal training, just reviewing the principles we learned at that seminar.

A couple of years later, I was taking criminal justice courses at a college. One of our classes was defensive tactics, which included a segment on baton training. Part of that class included "free sparring" with padded batons. Each person I faced (four), I ended up disarming them and "winning" pretty soundly. I felt that the principles taught way back then served me well.

I'm now studying a slightly different style of Escrima, but I find that many of the things taught by Presas still hold true.

Not meaning to quarrel at all, just curoius about your experiences with him.

[Tony Dismukes]

Mark - if you reread DragonMind's comment, he was listing Remy Presas in the legit group, not in the fraud or nutjob categories.

[Chris Hargis]

Nut Job: Eric Bristol (http://www.streetcombat.8m.com/main.html)


Wow, careful there. You're talking about the creator of the DEADLIEST STYLE EVER CREATED!!!!

And whatever happened with the challenge? Did the Gracies accept after they'd picked themselves off the floor and the spasms of laughter subsided?

[KMRing]

Mark - if you reread DragonMind's comment, he was listing Remy Presas in the legit group, not in the fraud or nutjob categories.
Hi Tony,

Yes, but all three categories were still under the banner of "wild claims", yes? So it was my impression that anyone listed under any of the categories could be considered less than 100% legit.

I didn't know Presas well enough to know whether he did anything outlandish, only that the priciples we learned seemed to be solid. That's why I was curious about DragonMind's experiences with him.

[Cliff Hargrave]

My starting list of nominees are Wally Jay, Remy Presas (OK when he was still alive), Jhoon Rhee, Bong Soo Han, Hee Il Cho, Geoff Booth, and J.R. West. No offence meant to anyone not listed, this was just a quick start off the top of my head.

They don't even need to be mentioned anyway. I don't know of any of them ever making what would be considered a "wild" claim. They were just exceptional martial artists.

I was focusing the thread towards the "Voodoo Budo" crowd.

[Mikey Triangles]

Wow, careful there. You're talking about the creator of the DEADLIEST STYLE EVER CREATED!!!!

And whatever happened with the challenge? Did the Gracies accept after they'd picked themselves off the floor and the spasms of laughter subsided?


Ah, Gracie probably figured he was some nut... and he was right ;)


I'm sure that's in the Gracie trash can somewhere... but it will forever be Eric Bristol's claim to fame :laugh:

[Spartan]

Proof that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

[GunFu]

Hi guys,

I believe that the Eric Bristol site is a hoax, a deliberate joke. My uncle is seriously involved in stage magic and when I showed him the site he recognised the guy ("Eric Bristol" is not his real name) and said he was well-known for playing practical jokes.

GunFu (Mike Munro)

[DragonMind]

Hi Barry,
Out of curiosity, why is Remy Presas there? 20 years ago, our studio attended one of his weekend seminars, and then dabbled in Arnis periodically afterwards - no formal training, just reviewing the principles we learned at that seminar.

A couple of years later, I was taking criminal justice courses at a college. One of our classes was defensive tactics, which included a segment on baton training. Part of that class included "free sparring" with padded batons. Each person I faced (four), I ended up disarming them and "winning" pretty soundly. I felt that the principles taught way back then served me well.

I'm now studying a slightly different style of Escrima, but I find that many of the things taught by Presas still hold true.

Not meaning to quarrel at all, just curoius about your experiences with him.
I took Cliff's definition to mean that here are the real-deals and not the fakes. Remy was most definitely the real thing. I only got to train with him once before he died but he left a lasting impression. I've never seen anyone so absolutely confidant that his technique would work every time...and it did. I now study from some of his students and they all say the same thing.

BTW get Danny Anderson's books. They are hands down the best reference material I've ever seen on Arnis (or pretty much any art for that matter). His site is www.danandersonkarate.com

[KMRing]

Thanks, Barry - I appreciate it and the reference!

[Mikey Triangles]

Hi guys,

I believe that the Eric Bristol site is a hoax, a deliberate joke. My uncle is seriously involved in stage magic and when I showed him the site he recognised the guy ("Eric Bristol" is not his real name) and said he was well-known for playing practical jokes.

GunFu (Mike Munro)


I thought that at first also, but then Someone that trained under him posted bad about him in another forum....

[GunFu]

I think that might be part of the joke.

GunFu (Mike Munro)

[ZenZero_0]

Truly one of the most enjoyable threads ever. Hey, does anyone have any feedback about Dr. LaTourette, "the speed man?" Just wondering cuz I see his advertisements all over the place.

[SteyrAUG]

1. Nut job - really believes he can do it but can't do it. You know the mumbo jumbo, aura seeing, chi channeling, levitating, types. Most of these actually learned from the #2s and never realized they were being had.



Are you trying to tell me I DON'T really have "The Glow." :eek:

:laugh:

[SteyrAUG]

Truly one of the most enjoyable threads ever. Hey, does anyone have any feedback about Dr. LaTourette, "the speed man?" Just wondering cuz I see his advertisements all over the place.

If this is the same John LaTourette of Kenpo fame he seems legit. Been at it a long time.

[Ronin81]

Does anyone remember an art, I believe called 'Vedas'...apparently it was Himalayan or something, a few articles got published on it some years ago along with a book or two. If anyone remembers or has information on this art (I have not come into contact with it), would you believe it to be a hoax?

As far as "quacks", and "voodoo martial arts goes", I think a lot of times it can be two separate things. For example, voodoo martial arts are people that just make ridiculous claims, followed by more fallacies to help defend them, etc. Quacks, on the other hand, are credential-less people, who try to pass them off as (in this case) "masters, grandmasters, soke" - pick your poison (or translation) - but without proper authority or knowledge.

Now, I recognize I'm dabbling a very fine line here. I in no way mean to disrespect people who find their own martial arts systems and pass them off as quacks just because of that (although I do have my own opinions on that matter also), I think most of you will understand what I'm trying to get at.

What do you guys thinK?