Okinawa Te (not karate)

[massai]

Does anyone have information on Okinawa Te(not karate)? I heard karate was formed after some techniques, gotten from chinese martial arts, were combined with the techniques of Okinawa Te (which originally didnt have many kicks). What was the difference? Is it an effective self defense martial art? And are there any schools in the USA?

[Chizikunbo]

Does anyone have information on Okinawa Te(not karate)? I heard karate was formed after some techniques, gotten from chinese martial arts, were combined with the techniques of Okinawa Te (which originally didnt have many kicks). What was the difference? Is it an effective self defense martial art? And are there any schools in the USA?
To my knowledge Okinawan Te was the indegenous fighting art of Okinawa, with heavy chinese influences, because of chinese immigrants and visitors, whom passed on there fighting arts.
I owuld check out Mark Bishops "Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques" it is a great book with lots of info on Okinawan Te.
Yours in the arts,
--Josh

[Azato]

as a shotokan student and have read works of shotokan okinawan-te was what karate was referred to back in the old days. This is according to funakoshi in his biogrpahy and karate-do Nyumon

alex

[Budoka34]

Okinawa-Te was/is a generic term used to discribe all Ryukyuan arts.

Remember Okinawa is the Japanese name for the Island.

Many still describe Karate styles as being of Shuri te, Naha te, or Tomari Te lineage.

[bustr]

You could ask Patrick McCarthy. If anyone would know he would. His website is here:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/

He also occasionally posts over at:

http://www.E-budo.com

[TroyRoget]

Does anyone have information on Okinawa Te(not karate)? I heard karate was formed after some techniques, gotten from chinese martial arts, were combined with the techniques of Okinawa Te (which originally didnt have many kicks). What was the difference? Is it an effective self defense martial art? And are there any schools in the USA?

I take Okinawan Kempo, which is, I think, the closest thing to what you're looking for. It preserves the original arts of Okinawa more comprehensively than most strains of Karate (which isn't to say that the changes in focus in the arts that were brought to Japan are bad). We learn a good scattering of Tomari Te and Shuri Te kata, but most of the Naha Te kata are considered very high-level in my style (I'm not sure why that is).

In my experience the quickest way to tell if a style is more Okinawan or more Japanese is the different naming of the same kata:

Pinan=Okinawan, Heian=Japanese
Naihanchi=Okinawan, Tekki=Japanese
Kusanku=Okinawan, Kanku=Japanese
Passai=Okinawan, Bassai=Japanese

Shuri Te kata contain a lot of kicks, so I'm not sure where you heard that Okinawan Te has few kicks, though admittedly Tomari Te kata contain only a few low kicks (in my experience; there are a lot of kata I don't know).

How effective it is for self-defense depends very much on who you learn it from, how you practice, and how hard you work at it.

Okinawa Te can mostly be found these days under the names Ryu Te or Ryukyu Kempo.

[Kevin]

I was under the impression that all karate styles were influenced by Te but that no "pure" form of Te still survives.

[TonyU]

I was under the impression that all karate styles were influenced by Te but that no "pure" form of Te still survives.
That is true.
Te was just the generic term for the arts pratice in the Ryukyus during that time with their Chinese influences.
They eventually evolved into regional styles; Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te.
Then they evolved into styles founded by particular teachers, Goju, Shorin, and so forth and so on.
They in turn have evolved into individual accented styles, Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and so forth.

[shoshinkan]

Okinawan 'Te',

Yep its true that the okinawan 'Te' was fused with chinese arts (and a few other bits perhaps) and developed from there, ie karate.

However 'Te' does still exist and is taught by the Motobu family, and a few others, I think maybee a few practioners in the US and obviously Okinawa, although it is rare indeed.

My little bit of research in this area has basically lead me to believe it is an aikido like, soft hand art that incorporates lot of military weaponry, sword, spear etc etc, as taught in the Royal palace a while back.

However for me, a mere mortal I like to think that the essence of 'Te' is alive in the authentic okinawan kata, its the bits that link the 'stop' points of each technique,

sorry to be so basic in my explanation, any 'Te' practioners please forgive me :frown: but an art that special is worth searching for -

yourself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[onnie]

To my under standing, Te was the form of Okinawan Budo. As you know it means hand. As for which system is the "real karate" you got me. For some of you younger students. The history of the arts will become very important later. This is a good place to find info that was not so readily available 20 plus years back. There are many good books out there. They all mention Te or Ti. Nagamine Sensei's Okinawan Karate-Do, Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop a very good book on history. To-Te Jitsu by Funakoshi Sensei. Choki Motobu's Okinawan Kempo has some good early history. These last two may be hard to find. You will have to put together from what you read or hear. As to Motobu, my first ranking is in Motobu-ryu because Seidokan Karate (Shian Toma Sensei) was under Uehara Sensei at the time. Seidokan gets its tuite from the Motobu system. Mark Bishops book covers some this, Te still meaning hand. To me, I think Okinawan Te is Okinawan Karate.
"train hard and often"
Thanks
Brandon

[bushi_tony]

I have to agree about bishops book lots of good info history,history ,history
Ive read it several times and keep reffering to it
good luck
Tony

[WMKS Shogun]

For an interesting take on Karate and its origins, "okinawa te," you might want to check out Bruce Clayton's book Shotokan's Secret. He puts forth some interesting theories on the original okinawan martial arts and how they evolved into the karate we know today. Basic premise is that the karate of today developed not as a personal self defense system, but an unarmed system of defending the king of okinawa since weapons were illegal. Clayton puts forth some very logical and compelling arguements for his theory. i am not sure if a agree with everything 100%, but it is an interesting read and he does throw in a fair amount of documented history.

[onnie]

David, I have not read Clayton's book, but I do have Motobu's book Okinawan Kempo. In it there is a good deal of history on that very subject. If you can find a copy it would be worth getting, maybe around 50$ to 100$ ? His and Funakoshi's To-TE Jitsu are limited edition with 2000 in print in 95. They may be hard to find or a little bit more spendy. Worth the money if you like the history. I will check out Clayton's book. Train hard and often.

Thanks
Brandon

[RRousselot]

Does anyone have information on Okinawa Te(not karate)? I heard karate was formed after some techniques, gotten from chinese martial arts, were combined with the techniques of Okinawa Te (which originally didnt have many kicks). What was the difference? Is it an effective self defense martial art? And are there any schools in the USA?


Te is the precursor to Karate prior to Chinese influence, however, I doubt a single “Te” school exists in Okinawa now. (I have no doubt there are tons of Te wannabee schools in the west though)
Even Motobu Ryu under Uehara Seikichi uses a lot of “karate” kata and bogu kumite and is not really considered 100% pure Te. Even though there are claims to the contrary.
I say this because Uehara learned from Motobu Choyu but didn’t seem to get the entire syllabus for the style and has added things

[TonyU]

RR welcome back.

Question. Would it be feasable if not possible that there are still some old school instructors still calling karate Te?

I've heard this from two sources, one questionable, one not.

[RRousselot]

RR welcome back.

Question. Would it be feasable if not possible that there are still some old school instructors still calling karate Te?

I've heard this from two sources, one questionable, one not.

Yes, that’s possible…..but I doubt they are teaching only Te. I imagine it is most likely mixed in with Karate.
My teacher renamed the style he teaches from Ryukyu Kempo to RyuTe® (Rykukyu hand or Hand of Rykuyku) for several reasons. One is fairly well known, because of Mr. Shaddy Dillman, and the other was essentially he wanted people to consider all Okinawan arts as “one”….probably meaning things like Te and all styles of Karate.
Te has been so intertwined into Karate that was brought over from China for so many generations it’s hard to separate one from the other.
Basically “real” Okinawa Te had no kata per say like the Chinese kata that were imported.

[TonyU]

Thank you.

[QPQ]

For an interesting take on Karate and its origins, "okinawa te," you might want to check out Bruce Clayton's book Shotokan's Secret. He puts forth some interesting theories on the original okinawan martial arts and how they evolved into the karate we know today. Basic premise is that the karate of today developed not as a personal self defense system, but an unarmed system of defending the king of okinawa since weapons were illegal. Clayton puts forth some very logical and compelling arguements for his theory. i am not sure if a agree with everything 100%, but it is an interesting read and he does throw in a fair amount of documented history.

This is my first post so forgive me if it seems impetuous.

These compelling theories are nothing new to practitioners of Okinawan Shuri Te derived styles like Matsumura Orthodox. Before Clayton came out with these premises I was taught that the Shorin Ryu I was learning was directly from Machimura's own brand of Te which emphasized bodyguard tactics and self-preservation principles. For example I was taught that one application for the side-to-side stepping of Naihanchi was directly related to protecting the King on all four sides or corners by numerous guards.

Again the Japanese karate-ka reverse engineer and yell "Eureka". You can't reinvent the wheel. The info is there if you do a style of Okinawan MAs, like Kobayashi, Shobayashi (or derivatives) Motobu Udunte, Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu, Okinawa Kenpo or Matsumura Seito. There are some others I left out.

I look forward to talking with you guys in the future.

[Gene Williams]

This is my first post so forgive me if it seems impetuous.

These compelling theories are nothing new to practitioners of Okinawan Shuri Te derived styles like Matsumura Orthodox. Before Clayton came out with these premises I was taught that the Shorin Ryu I was learning was directly from Machimura's own brand of Te which emphasized bodyguard tactics and self-preservation principles. For example I was taught that one application for the side-to-side stepping of Naihanchi was directly related to protecting the King on all four sides or corners by numerous guards.

Again the Japanese karate-ka reverse engineer and yell "Eureka". You can't reinvent the wheel. The info is there if you do a style of Okinawan MAs, like Kobayashi, Shobayashi (or derivatives) Motobu Udunte, Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu, Okinawa Kenpo or Matsumura Seito. There are some others I left out.

I look forward to talking with you guys in the future.

Clayton's stuff is reaching, I think. I would not rely on it too strongly. You're the guy who has been grinding the "Matsumura Orthodox" ax over on E-Budo for so long. Please don't bring that crap over here. You spelled your name "Seer," then "Cyr" then you appeared under several different names.

[QPQ]

Clayton's stuff is reaching, I think. I would not rely on it too strongly. You're the guy who has been grinding the "Matsumura Orthodox" ax over on E-Budo for so long. Please don't bring that crap over here. You spelled your name "Seer," then "Cyr" then you appeared under several different names.

Yeah you're the Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu dude, who likes to be an old crotchety bastidge and argue for the sake of arguing. I "grinded" (as you put it) the Matsumura Orthodox axe over at e-budo and I still know what I'm talking about. Please don't jump to conclusions as to who I am or what I can do, like those dolts did and we won't have any static. "Seer" or "Cyr" (one's the english pronunciation, the other french) it's all the same 'cause that's the way I teach the masses to say my name. Are you trying to rile sh-t up when I haven't said a d-amn thing derogatory towards you, man?

You know ALL my posts over there were on point. Now everyone wants to know the real bunkai and karate and time is proving that I was always right, even if the MMAs types or gendai karate-ka don't want to accept the absolute truth about what is real karate/MAs and what isn't. You KNOW I've always been right, regardless the delivery.

BTW all styles (like people or anything else) were not created equal. PERIOD

[TonyU]

"Seer" or "Cyr" (one's the english pronunciation, the other french) it's all the same 'cause that's the way I teach the masses to say my name.
I, as a moderator, am asking you to place in the profile as it's spelled, not as it's pronounced.
Thank you.

[Gene Williams]

Yeah you're the Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu dude, who likes to be an old crotchety bastidge and argue for the sake of arguing. I "grinded" (as you put it) the Matsumura Orthodox axe over at e-budo and I still know what I'm talking about. Please don't jump to conclusions as to who I am or what I can do, like those dolts did and we won't have any static. "Seer" or "Cyr" (one's the english pronunciation, the other french) it's all the same 'cause that's the way I teach the masses to say my name. Are you trying to rile sh-t up when I haven't said a d-amn thing derogatory towards you, man?

You know ALL my posts over there were on point. Now everyone wants to know the real bunkai and karate and time is proving that I was always right, even if the MMAs types or gendai karate-ka don't want to accept the absolute truth about what is real karate/MAs and what isn't. You KNOW I've always been right, regardless the delivery.

BTW all styles (like people or anything else) were not created equal. PERIOD


No, actually a lot of what you wrote over there was nonsense. Several other people called you on it, but you kept right on going with long, boring posts trying to justify yourself. Then, you got banned, so you came back under other IP's and kept up the same crap. I don't think you are even telling us your real name. Let's see you were, "Troof," "Machimura," and two or three other cutesy names. I, for one, do not trust that you are who you say you are. Oh, BTW, I don't think you would know "real karate" if it ran up and bit you on the butt. You have too much to prove.

[QPQ]

No, actually a lot of what you wrote over there was nonsense. Several other people called you on it, but you kept right on going with long, boring posts trying to justify yourself. Then, you got banned, so you came back under other IP's and kept up the same crap. I don't think you are even telling us your real name. Let's see you were, "Troof," "Machimura," and two or three other cutesy names. I, for one, do not trust that you are who you say you are. Oh, BTW, I don't think you would know "real karate" if it ran up and bit you on the butt. You have too much to prove.

1) Like what, Mr. ASSumption. Give me a solid example of what I said that was BS or a lie... C'mon now man.... You don't trust what I say, but I bet you believe someone like Bush or a "truth teller" like Antonio Bustillo, who has been called out by real karate-ka like Jon Bluming who know what's up.

2) Called me on what? STFW if I used cutesy names there. Does that have any bearing on truth? Like the words I typed regarding real karate vesus fake karate? Tell me what it is you really know about me. Far less than I know about you.

3) You obviously don't know real karate because you train in a system that's neither here nor there imo. That's the freakin' truth to me. Quit playin' yourself. You don't have the smarts to match wits with me. That junk you claim is Motobu Ryu is nothing of the sort. Just look at your stances, fist forms and the ridiculous number of kata you're required to learn. It is anti-Motobu Choki to the bone, and has no relation whatsoever to Choyu Motobu's family style.

4) I've known real karate since I started training in Shorinkan in the early 80s. On top of that 30+ years in a "fit a square peg into a round hole style" like Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu doesn't mean crap. A guy with 2 years of kickboxing would wax a comparable sized BB at your school, that I know for sure too.You know this man no matter what you wish to be true. Oooo, the deadly art of Shito Ryu!!! Who the hell ever proved they were worth a damn in your style. Anyone like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis or Mike Stone?

Clue---LESS!!!


Sen no sen tough guy, that's what you "-Do" guys don't know about. Sente baby!!!

How you gonna come at me with that gay-assed first post and expect me to be civil? You friggin' weren't, and respect is a two way street, fool! Don't call me a liar when I never lied about a damned thing except for a name so I could get on ebudo and get the last word in on those e-budo jerk-offs from S. Florida. You idiots lied and kept posting pics of some bald guy from WVa. trying to break a board saying it was me. I could have sued you dolts for slander AND libel. Then we would have met for real and you guys would see that just like in your everyday life, ya' gots no clue. ZERO


BTW where are your SFA girlfriends now? Did their keen powers of observation keep them from rebuilding there school in hurricane central? Maybe they've battered their brains into submission by now and they can't even spell let alone type aymore.

So give me proof that I know nothing about real karate and that I lied ---or shut your trap you old fart!

That's the "Troof" word to "Machimura"...

[TonyU]

All right thread closed.
While you have every right to defend your self I think you went overboard.
So consider yourself warned.
That type of language and behavior will not be tolerated here, by anyone.
And place your correct spelling of your name in the profile as required by the rules.