Self Defense Certification?

[Fightback2]

I'm curious. Do you think there should be a process to obtain a certification or degree in women's self defense instruction. The goal would be to insure women/girls are receiving worthwhile instruction and not getting a false sense of security?

If so, how would you go about doing it?

[jakmak52]

This organization may be of some help:

NESTA (http://www.nestacertified.com/selfdefense.html)

:)

[DragonMind]

Another one: http://www.awsda.org/. They have their own cert process.

[David Craik]

Seems like a process not unlike a certification body for all self-defense arts, which would be nearly impossible to implement.

I don't see the distinction, as surely "Women's Self Defense" is not a universally homogenous skill set.

[Fletch1]

Seems typical of organizations selling generic certifications. Hardly cutting edge, they appear to be designed as a package to market to non-Martial Arts personal trainers looking for another angle.

A video and a book for 150 bucks and you are set.

[bloodymonkey117]

I've yet to see a men's self-defense class... As naive as this probably sounds, that always kinda irked me. nor have i ever seen a men's study class in college... so, while women should probably have something dedicated to their particular issues, i'd imagine that any woman proficient in any martial would be able to kick some serious ***! go women! :bandit:

[DragonMind]

I've yet to see a men's self-defense class...
Actually, you probably have. The difference is they just didn't use MEN in the title. We've been running male-only classes for many years in military combat arms, many law enforcement agencies, martial arts schools, etc. In fact, all self defense classes were men's classes for many years. The difference is that when women starting joining those classes, instructors began realizing that women had unique needs not addressed by the male classes and started putting together classes that addressed those needs. If you can identify needs unique to men, I'm sure someone can put together a class to address them. I actually believe there is a need for a self-defense class for abused males but it would not fly due to the social stigma that would be attached to the participants. Ask any woman who's been sexually assaulted or a victim of domestic abuse how much sympathy/support they received when they went public and consider if you'd want to put yourself through that. Before anyone starts screaming about Title IX and Equal Rights, the courts have held that equitable doesn't mean exactly the same. Men already have access to courses that meet their needs, women don't. Women-only self-defense classes address that need and would not be required to be co-ed to comply with the law IMHO.

[Fightback2]

Ask any woman who's been sexually assaulted or a victim of domestic abuse how much sympathy/support they received when they went public and consider if you'd want to put yourself through that. . . . Men already have access to courses that meet their needs, women don't. Women-only self-defense classes address that need and would not be required to be co-ed to comply with the law IMHO.


As usual, you've hit the nail right on the head.

[DragonMind]

Ahh... a Laurel Thatcher Ulrich fan.

[bloodymonkey117]

hm... while i do agree to an extent, wouldn't what you just described be under the title of self-defense class? And while i understand that for ages and generations, classes WERE male only classes, fact of the matter is that they no longer are. I tend to feel that it's the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that the needs of his or her participants are being met, male or female. But then again, i tend to have trouble understanding gender lines. I usually find them ridiculous. You know, that and i guess i expect a lot out of instructors... :bandit:

[bloodymonkey117]

eh... well, back on subject... I think it might be more effective to just make all self-defense teachers certified in female self-defense.

[Fightback2]

Ahh... a Laurel Thatcher Ulrich fan.

Um . . . who? {looking at you with wide-eyed innocence :rolleyes: }

In all seriousness, in our self defense class (which is women only) we discuss rape and sexual assault openly. I don't think our students would feel as free to discuss such matters if there were men in the room, other than instructors that is.

There is also a wide variety of emotions, ranging from hysterical giggling to tears and curse words that would make a sailor blush. It's a cathartic experience and many women don't feel as free to express those sorts of emotions in a mixed group.

[DragonMind]

Theresa is hitting on the key mismatch here. When you say "self-defense" most people immediately click onto awareness, technique, etc. However, when you say "women's self-defense" there is a whole other aspect that isn't clicking for a lot of men. They only hear the "self-defense" part and key in on factors that are common to both genders; missing the part that is unique to women who have suffered sexual assault and/or domestic violence. Women want and need the company of other women to be able to open up fully and share their experiences and achieve some catharsis if not healing. That WILL NOT happen in a mixed gender class, and very often won't happen with a male instructor. I don't care how bad a breakdown you men think you have seen; you haven't seen what can happen when women are alone together. They need this and we shouldn't deny it to them because of some ego-driven, testosterone-poisoned need to get "revenge" for Title IX.

[bloodymonkey117]

understood, and duely noted. My annoyance isn't so much that there's a women's class so much as that there isn't a men's class, and the stigma associated with it. Like i said, i don't understand gender lines. An assaulted person's an assaulted person. :bandit:

[DragonMind]

Like i said, i don't understand gender lines. An assaulted person's an assaulted person. :bandit:
I think that's where the disconnect is coming from. An assaulted woman is quite different from an assaulted man. A raped woman is very different from a raped man. They have different tools and approaches to dealing with what happened. If you are interested in exploring this further, talk to some folks who deal with domestic abuse and rape victims, maybe volunteer at the local crisis center. It will change how you look at the world forever. It's not for everybody and if you decide it's not an area you're comfortable working with, that's cool too, but you'll have a better understanding of the folks who do and why they are so passionate about doing it right. I liken it to the McDojo reaction of serious martial artists. It's hard enough to do it right without having to deal with the fakes, charlatans and blissfully ignorant too.

[corsarius]

understood, and duely noted. My annoyance isn't so much that there's a women's class so much as that there isn't a men's class, and the stigma associated with it. Like i said, i don't understand gender lines. An assaulted person's an assaulted person.

A fair point that an assaulted person is an assaulted person, but consider these two thoughts:

1) The kinds of attacks faced by a male in a self defence situation are generally widely varied from those a female would face. Most martial artists are taught in class the defence against the ubiquitous "haymaker", though is this the most relevant attack for a womens' self defence class focusing, say, on rape-defence?

2) Self defence actually begins before the assault necessarily occurs - awareness of dangerous situations, habits to avoid looking like an obvious victim, self-defence psychology/mindset. All of these relate to self defence, yet not necessarily to physical techniques.

Interestingly, the second point does, however, point to the fact that self defence classes for men are not a bad idea. More men, for example, may find themselves in a self defence situation in a bar. A self defence course for men, should therefore include methods of defusing potentially violent encounters - using appropriate tone of voice etc (much like elements of the Australian police training methods, for example).

Just my thoughts

(sorry - not trying to hijack the Women and the Martial arts forum and make it all about men! :t2: ).

[dao]

Just my thoughts

(sorry - not trying to hijack the Women and the Martial arts forum and make it all about men! :t2: ).

Yah, suuuure you aren't :wink2: Rape and physical assault are not just women's issues, they are people issues which can potentially affect everyone. So it's appropriate.

I truely think the world would be a better place if there was more support for males who have been assaulted.

I've read somewhere that women are far more likely to be assaulted by someone they know. And serious assaults on women usually are from the back whereas men are more likely to be assualted in face-to-face situations.

[wingchundo.girl]

The only problem I have with the certification process is who is doing the certification. Because it is so easy to set up your own organization or association these days. But usually the first person to think of it, puts together an application process, maybe a seminar or two and offers certification has set themselves up as the final word for the rest of the industry.

I have to look hard at what they consider effective, practical, and simple survival techniques. I have seen several seminars that were totally inappropriate, techniques that the women (especially if they are unexperienced) could not or would not perform.

Certification looks good to the customer, probably makes local law makers that want to regulate our industry a little more comfortable because it looks like we are self regulating, and I guess if you look to get certification, it means you care about good service to your customer and legitamizing the self defense taught. In the long run, it probably will do our industry good.

But if there are more than a few organizations that certify, who has the expertise, the most effective techniques, and does the most to promote good self defense in our industry?

Liz Ambrose

[James O'Neill]

I interpreted the question as mandatory certification and I was against that on principal. A bureaucracy responsible for certifying instructors is the last thing we in the martial arts community need IMO.

On the other hand, I think that specialized training is a huge benefit for women's self defense instructors - certification in such training is excellent and would tend to make one more attractive to potential students - I say let the free market dictate the need for certification as opposed to making it mandatory. I'd rather see us rely on that to seperate the wheat from the chaff before I'd rely upon another government bureaucracy to "fix the problem". The cure would likely be worse than the disease.

[Crane]

Seems typical of organizations selling generic certifications. Hardly cutting edge, they appear to be designed as a package to market to non-Martial Arts personal trainers looking for another angle.

A video and a book for 150 bucks and you are set.

I agree Fletch. But I think the problem with self-defence courses in general whether they be for mixed or female groups, is that they can lull people into a false sense of security. A quick 3-month course, showing a few fix-all techniques is what I am weary of, because they tend to be too presumptuous.

I do agree on the other hand that they can help to instil a certain level of confidence and general awareness, and are helpful if they are taken at face value.

However, in my honest opinion- the best way to learn self-defence is to train seriously in a traditional martial art. We all know the saying about learning principles over techniques. Even then, you cannot be arrogant about how you think you can handle a dangerous street situation. In most cases, MA help not because of a certain technique you have mastered but through the qualities they give you as a person- for example the way you carry yourself down the street. Like wolves, humans too can sniff out victims.

Just my thoughts.

[Fightback2]

Crane:

There are people who for reasons of their own; money, time, etc.; have no desire to learn a "true" martial art style. Would you have them learn nothing at all because they would then have a "false sense of security"? Or would you have them learn a few basic tools, taught by instructors experienced in self defense?

There are good programs that instill not only real confidence but real skills as well. Granted there are fly-by-night courses that offer a one solutions fits all program. We all know those don't work. You are correct in that sense.

If a self defense program, especially one designed for women, is handled correctly the students take away a great deal. The instructors must teach the students that every situation is different, every body type and fighting style is different. Which means that there is not one solution that will work all the time. It is up to the student to learn and practice the techniques that work best for her.

Food for thought.

[DragonMind]

Although this has been discussed at length, I have to interject. Martial arts is one subject, self protection is another. While there is some overlap, martial arts is not the best answer if you want to learn practical self protection in the shortest time frame and have the greatest chance of success. The assumption that you are starting out empty-handed is the first serious -and potentially fatal- flaw in your whole perception of the subject.

[Carol Kaur]

"Certification" seems to be available for everything from IT geeks to a boarding kennel for my beloved kitty cat. Certifications have the potential to provide training benchmarks and methods of comparison. Or, they can be nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the analytically-challenged. Either way...they tend to be a dandy source of revenue for the certifying organization. :D

I think they can be of value if the certifications have some meat behind them...and aren't just some worthless form of eye candy like a "New and Improved" sticker on some kind of soap. :rolleyes:

It could be argued that it may be best for women to study MA, I agree. I also think it's best if MA teachers improve their generally disappointing track record in attracting and retaining female students.

But, since we gotta deal with reality even though reality bites...I think the women's self protection programs are generally more beneficial than they are harmful. I know one woman at my school said she got interested in MA after taking a self protection class. :karate:

[Crane]

Theresa:

I was not suggesting that all self defence courses are pointless. I take issue only with the way I have seen many marketed to the public today. I was also not advocating that everyone take up MA as he only way to be safe in terms in terms of self defence. Plenty of people get through life perfectly well without ever having studied a MA or been to a self defence class in their life. I just advocate caution, because learning a small repertoire of techniques or skills in the test tube of a class does not mean you will be able to pull any one of them off at any given time. It takes at least 100 repetitions of a movement just to have them stored in muscle memory, let alone react correctly to the right situation. What I am trying to emphasise, is not that there is no way of learning self defence in a self defence class. Just that it takes continuous practice- preventive therapy is not preventive if you only have it done once. There is no vaccine for shaky situations.

But again, self-defence classes are very beneficial if they promote awareness, confidence and correct attitude. The skills gained however, in my humble opinion, are not akin to learning how to ride a bike- where you learn once and never forget.


The instructors must teach the students that every situation is different, every body type and fighting style is different. Which means that there is not one solution that will work all the time. It is up to the student to learn and practice the techniques that work best for her.


The fact that you use the term “fighting style” here, suggest that you see things from a MA point of view. I am sure you will agree that self defence is not about fighting, but about getting home to have dinner with your family at the end of the day.

I don’t quite understand what you mean by “instructors experienced in self defence”. By this, do you mean they have plenty of experience on the street? (In which case I would have nothing to do with them) Or do you mean in the sense of the original post? (i.e. certification)

Respectfully.

[wac61]

Hi,

I have taught women who have suffered degradable attacks, domestic violence, mental abuse and self worthlessness. I have not used the term self defence instead I use Survival skills, self defence conjures up all different ideas and may seem unachievable to certain people who are already under pressure but everyone wants to survive. The term is used everyday we are short of money, lost my job, partner left me but don’t worry I will survive or it is ok I’m a survivor so I think subconiously we are already on a positive foot.
The system is called WAC (hence my nick) “Women Are Capable”.

As far back as cavemen, we as humans already know how to fight and survive. In our lives today, there are far more things than can cause us harm. We need to be able to develop our natural skills, control our thoughts, our emotions and most of all control “OURSELVES” in order to survive.

I could go on and on and you would tell me to shut up (ha-ha) but in the end I want to install confidence and enhance their awareness and reaction time through basic strategies, with some survival techniques I can only hope to empower them as to get control back in their lives.



If we run, hide or defeat the threat so we survive
That is self-defence!

THIS SI ONLY MY OPINION
THANKS MAL

[DragonMind]

Hi,

I have taught women who have suffered degradable attacks, domestic violence, mental abuse and self worthlessness. I have not used the term self defence instead I use Survival skills, self defence conjures up all different ideas and may seem unachievable to certain people who are already under pressure but everyone wants to survive. The term is used everyday we are short of money, lost my job, partner left me but don’t worry I will survive or it is ok I’m a survivor so I think subconiously we are already on a positive foot.
The system is called WAC (hence my nick) “Women Are Capable”.

As far back as cavemen, we as humans already know how to fight and survive. In our lives today, there are far more things than can cause us harm. We need to be able to develop our natural skills, control our thoughts, our emotions and most of all control “OURSELVES” in order to survive.

I could go on and on and you would tell me to shut up (ha-ha) but in the end I want to install confidence and enhance their awareness and reaction time through basic strategies, with some survival techniques I can only hope to empower them as to get control back in their lives.



If we run, hide or defeat the threat so we survive
That is self-defence!

THIS SI ONLY MY OPINION
THANKS MAL
Out of curiosity, humans are, by nature, tool users. Do you teach your survival skills based on tool usage? Specifically, do you advocate tools when situations become physical/violent?

[Crane]

"...I want to install confidence and enhance their awareness and reaction time through basic strategies, with some survival techniques I can only hope to empower them as to get control back in their lives.

THANKS MAL

I think what you are doing is great. These are worthy motives and one of the best ways I have heard them presented.

[wac61]

Good question Barry.. But what do you class as tools in earlier tools were made from bone, stone etc and were used for everyday chores and protection so when does a tool become a weapon.

What tools do women ( I used the term women as this is the subject) use today, as you and I know society has changed a lot and not all for the better. But something’s stay similar yes I definitely teach awareness of weapons, be it in the home, car etc there are many things that can be weapons. Do they need to be bladed or deadly to classed as a weapon, would you say a spray pack of cooking oil is a dangerous weapon maybe not but sprayed on the floor or body parts maybe give that opportunity needed.

Even empty handed, no purse, umberealla she still has weapons Imagine this she is aware someone is following her, tries to avoid or lose the aggressor and cant gets cornered no weapons right.. as he approaches she lift her top exposes her breasts to the aggressor as his attention is distracted she delivers a kick to the groin, eye gouge, throat slap etc she now has the opportunity to escape and survive. This is could happen so what do we really class as weapons or tools or when does a tool become a weapon.

Thanks Mal.

[dao]

I have a friend whose always saying everything is "WAC". As in that's WAC (W)eird (A)nd (C)razy.

It came from a conversation between me and a friend of mine. It was the only way to describe me.

"You're wac man"

:laugh: :laugh:



Bad Moderator, Bad

But, seriously...

I love your idea of teaching survival skills vs. teaching self defense. I think it would make the class less threatening to newbies as well. Do you ever have anyone show up who is expecting something different than what you are teaching?

[wac61]

haha some of my advanced student who have been with me for 8yrs call me Weird and Cranky. WAC is course that runs over a 12 weeks period and then a refresher course 4 weeks later. Wait I hear the screams you can’t learn self defence in 12 weeks I have been studying for years etc... maybe but you have been learning for different reasons. So yes ladies do come along and expect different things and sometimes it is just for someone to genuinely listen to them talk. But as educator or instructor is it my job to find what they really need and not what they think eg; my husband always berates me when he is angry and after I am an emotional wreck, I want to stand up to him and put him on his bum then he will stop. Does she need to be taught steps to achieve this, I don’t think so we have other choices. I also find that that few want to join the school on a fulltime basis. I love teaching women and I believe it is all about the approach women and men are not that different, the way I see it is Men are hunters and Women are the protectors and nurturers hurts a women baby and watch out. So with that protective energy already.. what a start to build on.

Women lose confidence in many ways:

Stay at home may feel:
I could not hold down a job
At the kids school I’m Jessie mum
At the husbands work show : This Bill’s wife
Just a few but overtime they lose their Identity and confidence

Do we realise as men what our actions can do eg:

I’m going to spoil my wife:

Take her to a beautiful restraint
Order her favourite meal
Great bottle of wine

Ahhhhh Good job hey !!

But she is a little cranky mmhh why ?

I told her where we going to eat
What we were going to eat
What we were drinking

We need to be aware how our actions affect others and know the signs to protect ourselves getting chinks in our armour. Martial arts is a way of life that pertains to every aspect of our lives. We need to educate ourselves and our partners that communication and understanding are way better than anger and frustration. It may not be easy but little steps at a time and eventually all things are possible.

Mal

[DragonMind]

Good question Barry.. But what do you class as tools...when does a tool become a weapon.
A tool is any device used to amplify the person's innate physical abilities. Some are multi-purpose and a few are single purpose. In the arena of self-protection or self survival (I really like that concept by the way), some are better suited than others. I tend to deal with the end of the spectrum where violence is happening so I see tools like knives as absolutely essential starting points. I have gotten on my soapbox about the mindset of empty-handed training being used to teach "self-defense" before so no need to repeat it.

A blade is designed specifically for cutting things. When cutting a chicken for dinner it is a tool. When cutting an abusive individual intent on harming you, I still consider it a tool. It is doing the job for which it was designed. "Weapon" is a legal definition, not a functional one. One must be aware of the use of force rules, etc. when using any empty-hand technique or tool so when something becomes a weapon is not really a useful exercise. Suffice it that the real issues are reasonableness and impression. The fact that a 120 lb woman using a Terminator 2000 Battle Blade to stop her 200 lb husband from pounding her skull into the concrete repeatedly may be reasonable force from a legal standpoint, but the DA is going to try to create the impression of evil intent by the nature of the blade's marketing campaign. We need to teach women how to use tools effectively and how to deal with the legal system afterwards.

[dao]

I apologize that this is an aside to the main topic of certification but, sometimes I wonder if we worry too much about the legal system afterwards. A couple years ago now, a young women and her boyfriend were walking home after some time in a bar and a group of three or four young 'thug' men attempted to rob them and then beat up the young man. The young women stabbed and killed one of the thugs and then the other thugs scattered. The young women was taken to jail and held for about a week then the DA refused to prosecute the case and she was let out. And this was in San Francisco which probably has the most draconian knife and weopon laws imaginable.

Of course, domestic situations are completely different. And I've heard but, not sure if its true that women who are charged with killing their husbands have higher conviction rate and on adverage serve more time than men who are charged with killing their wives. Does anyone know where this statistic comes from?

[littlecelt]

Of course, domestic situations are completely different. And I've heard but, not sure if its true that women who are charged with killing their husbands have higher conviction rate and on adverage serve more time than men who are charged with killing their wives. Does anyone know where this statistic comes from?

I've checked with several sources and while there is quite a bit of information out there on female inmates (as well as teens and children), I haven't been able to find anything specific on abuse victims who have been convicted. I'll keep looking, it just means that my normal resources will have to be expanded; which is always a good thing::grin::

[wac61]

Barry.. you bring up a great point "We need to teach women how to use tools effectively and how to deal with the legal system afterwards." I believe I teach a very effective method self preservation which could be deadly in certain circumstances or traing the wrong person. I try to empower and get some normality or control back into their shattered life, but maybe I am leading them into more trouble in the end. So THANKS !!! I have had a little look into but thought well justice wins out, but these days so crims have more rights. I will educate myself fully in this area and raise awareness to this in the WAC workshops. Thanks Again Mal.

[DragonMind]

Mal, please go into the Articles section and read Rory Miller's pieces.

[freedomfighter04]

I would think that a certified black belt in any art would be qualified enough to teach the course.

I don't see a green belt teaching the course.

[CDunn]

I would think that a certified black belt in any art would be qualified enough to teach the course.

I don't see a green belt teaching the course.

Unfortunately, due to lack of centralized bodies, a 'certified black belt' doesn't really mean very much, unless said certificate comes from one of a recognized list of institutions - And creating that list would be a mess. Further more, we've spent a lot of time showing that martial art is no guarantee of modern self defense applications. Self defense curriculums need to be about awareness, descalation, and quick, effective strategems for when the above break down, not techniques, and a ranking in an MA has little to do with these.

[Defined]

Although at first glance, certification does sound like a good idea, realistically I am not sure it would work.

Firstly, how could you tell if someone was worthy of the certification. Would you have tests for it?

After they have the certificate, does that mean they have to follow a certain curriculum that would be predetermined by the organisation beforehand? I am saying this, just because it is believed someone can teach a women's self defence class, does not mean that they will.

How would you create a curriculum or know who can teach a class if the applicants come from so many different styles of martial arts? It may not be best to have a TKD instructor teaching ground fighting, or a Judo instructor teaching strikes. For a well rounded course (I believe) you would have some of both. I have seen advertised a few different self defence courses for women and all that I remember advertise it coming from a certain angle of martial arts.

For example, they went along these lines...

Self Defence Class For Women
We well show you the best proven techniques from [insert martial art here] for your use in self defence.

And not all of them sounded so commercial.

So, it may be great, but very hard and likely to cost a lot of money. I'd just be happy to get an instructor I know instructs at a martial arts school as well. Personally I like the idea of courses that have included someone from law enforcement present to have there say. So, they may cover what is legal but more importantly, what are the most common situations and such.