Video/Book instruction - good or bad???

[CelticWarrrior]

Hey there everyone!

I am really interested in learning Ninjutsu but the only school closest to me is one of Wayne Roy's (I've heard that they arent all that good. Can someone explain why, if not here than in a PM or email?). I was wondering what people think about learning off a video and if they are aright what ones are the best and where i can get them?

Thanx guys, I know its a lot but i really appreciate it!!

[Don Roley]

I will be the ogre and tell you quite honestly that your situation is not good. I would neither reccomend you train at a Wayne L Roy dojo or train exclusivly by video.

I have written this time and time again, but you just joined so I will do so again. The problem with starting off with a video course is that there are things you will do that are wrong, but you don't know are wrong. This might be through an ignorance of the subject matter (and as a beggining student you are ignorant- not stupid, ignorant) or just because it is part of your blind spots. A blind spot is something that you can't see and you are not aware that you can't see.

It is not the mistakes you know if that will cause you problems. When I know I have made a mistake I work on it. It is the stuff that you think is great but is a bad habit that you drill into your automatic relexes that should scare the hell out of you.

I have seen this time and time again. Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent!!!! And if you drill into yourself something that you do not know is a bad habit, you will have a devil of a time getting rid of that habit. Please, please trust me when I say that I speak from bitter experience here.

Is there a tai chi school near you? I would reccomend starting off with something like that any day over a video course. I have found that a lot of what I find in good tai chi does not clash with what you will learn later when you find a decent ninjutsu teacher. And you can find it a lot easier than honest ninjutsu classes. But notice that I underlined "good." Go over to the Internal Chinese Section here and find out just how many bozos are teaching who should be put up against a wall and shot.

If there is something we can do to help you, most of us will. You may not like us shooting down your plans and such. But please remember that we are experienced in these things. And some of us may get testy. I am not the only one who has seen several people get damn good advice only to reject it because it does not fit with what they want to do or their image of martial arts. Some people have little patience after all the times that has happened. But if you understand that some of the good guys around here may be harsh, but are being honest based on their experience, then you can avoid many of the mistakes we had to make.

[CelticWarrrior]

Wow that was brutal wasnt it? But i do thank you for your honesty. May i ask a general question to anyone why its not good to train at a Wayne L. Roy place? I cant find anything on this site other than things saying thats it bad....

Thanks for lettin gme know about the videos. Looks like i'll have to go with some other martial art :( Can anyone recommend one? One that uses actual objects/weapons?

Thanks!

[CelticWarrrior]

Just an add-on to my previous post, what about this guy? I am absolutely NO expert in this and the titles mean nothing to me. Can anyone help and see if this guy is legit?
http://www.shinbukan.com.au/default.html

Cheers

[Dennis Monk]

From their website:
Kuden Jikiden: All Iga Ryu Ninjutsu members receive "techniques and methods" printed in name only for reference purposes. The application and content of each technique is transmitted from master to student by way of "Kuden Jikiden" (oral teachings). There are no "textbooks, manuals or videos" and only members of the ryu are granted access to the knowledge that comprises Iga Ryu Ninjutsu.


When I read statements such as this, flags go up and alarm bells sound in my head. That whole "what we teach is secret and no one but us shall know it" mentality is usually indicative of a place to stay away from. The next thing they will tell you is that what is taught there, is so deadly, that it can't be used on the street because you would kill someone. Be wary of places like that. The school may be legit, but it is hard to get past statements like the above for me.

[Don Roley]

May i ask a general question to anyone why its not good to train at a Wayne L. Roy place? I cant find anything on this site other than things saying thats it bad....

As I said, the owners of budoseek do not like us slagging other people on their boards. But ask yourself if you would want to train in an orginization run by someone who would write this kind of letter.

http://www.bushinbooks.com/Royletter.jpg


Just an add-on to my previous post, what about this guy? I am absolutely NO expert in this and the titles mean nothing to me. Can anyone help and see if this guy is legit?
http://www.shinbukan.com.au/default.html


Don't waste your time with him. Read the following thread for more details as to why.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13602

[The Nephilim]

Thanks for lettin gme know about the videos. Looks like i'll have to go with some other martial art :( Can anyone recommend one? One that uses actual objects/weapons?

Thanks!

Tai Chi videos use weapons. I will post again on some videos I picked up cheap. One video is of this grandmaster with a bladed weapon and it snaps off in his hand due to either force or a fault in manufacture. Looks impressive though.

But ask one thing about learning weapons: What is it you wish to learn, and what instructor you want to learn from. Most, if not all MA teach weapons. If you walk into a kan dojo, you will be taught at some point. So decide on what you wish to learn and what skills you wish to aquire.

and yes Mr. Roley is brutal in his reply. Just be glad he said it in a nice way. :D

P.S. If you are wanting to learn in this system, look into winjutsu.com for some local dojo's in your area. It may help you some way to learning.

[Kiwi]

Celticwarrior, where approximately do you live in Australia?

[CelticWarrrior]

and yes Mr. Roley is brutal in his reply. Just be glad he said it in a nice way. :D

P.S. If you are wanting to learn in this system, look into winjutsu.com for some local dojo's in your area. It may help you some way to learning.

Awesome, thanks for that. And i am VERY glad that he said it in a nice way :)


And to Kiwi - I live in Sydney, in the Sutherland Shire. Wayne Roy is the closest one to me for ninjutsu, but i found another place in Sutherland that I am going to look into.

Thanks for all your help people! I REALLY appreciate it! Now im off to look at the above mentioned letter/thread....

[Dale Seago]

I live in Sydney, in the Sutherland Shire.

Laura, would Petersham work for you? Gillian Booth (10th dan last I heard) teaches there. You'd never even dream she was a budoka if you saw her on the street, but she carries this invisible huge can of highly compressed whup-arse. :D

I know her personally, have trained with her in Japan; and she's very, very good.

She gives her location info in response to an inquiry regarding Sydney-area Bujinkan training, here:

http://duncan.suddenlaunch2.com/index.cgi?board=dojofind&action=display&num=1092448298

[CelticWarrrior]

Damn, Petersham is bit to far away for me to get to, especially since i dont drive yet (I'm getting there finally) and i work till 5pm in the city. My sister is also thinking of starting wth me and she drives, so I'll ask her, but I'm not holding my breath :D

Good to know she is there though..... I'll definatelykeep her in mind!

[Dale Seago]

If you'll notice from Gillian's post linked above, though, she does teach on Saturday mornings. It would be worth getting in touch with her regardless, as she probably knows who else is around the area and, if there's anyone closer to you, she might be able to hook you up.

Please don't forget that this art is still relatively new outside Japan. If there's a dojo within a couple of hours, you're far luckier than many who want to learn.

[Mr_Sprinkle]

I read this thread and don’t think Don Roley has any position to make comments about any Ninjutsu instructor to whom he has never meet or trained with personally. You base your case Mr Roley on a simple letter which in fact is a fake, designed to discredit Wayne Roy, it isn’t even his signature. The truth of the matter is, Wayne Roy has not been directly apart of the Bujinkan since the late 1990’s. I have along with many people personally trained with Mr Roy and other instructors under him, across Australia. The level of professionalism and skill in Ninjutsu is very high under Mr Roy, along with developmental programs etc, which Mr Roy has developed over time in Australia & New Zealand.

If the Soke felt so lowly of Mr Roy & his performance, why does the Soke gladly and unquestionably many times a year accept students from Mr Roy’s schools in Australia for training in Japan? Why is it the Soke still validates all certificates on behalf of Mr Roy to date? Why is it that any student under Mr Roy is welcomed at any other Bujinkan / affiliated to the Bujinkan dojo to undertake training, at the same grade with Mr Roy internationally? Mr Roy has been highly regarded amongst the martial arts community and highly awarded (internationally) for his contributions over the many years. He has been sort by many government military, law enforcement, and security agencies in developing training programs.

The other fact is, over the years, many Ninjutsu schools have come and gone, yet Mr Roy is still going strong. So what if Mr Roy is critical, he is no more critical then you Don in this forum, exposing the truth of the unethical behaviour and conduct that goes on in the Bujinkan, especially in regards to belt buying scams. He has on many times along with other instructors of the Bujinkan internationally, made it quite publicly known such activities which discredit the face and name of the Bujinkan system. It is because of such things like this, that Mr Roy like other instructors like him chose to distance them selves of the Bujinkan. If you are such an expert on Japanese culture, you would know the Japanese don’t like people talking the truth. Your comments stem from arrogance & ignorance.

If I had a choice, and I give you credit, I would join something else like JKD, Wing Chung, Tai Chi etc, because you will learn more then what you would from any Bujinkan school & save money too. However, there is really not much choice out there in regards to Ninjutsu training then the Bujinkan, because you can’t trust any of theses other players (“Kevin Hawthorn Ninja Schools” for example, who operate in Australia). If the person in question here wishes to train in Ninjutsu and under another Bujinkan dojo besides Wayne Roy or his affiliates, there is also Goshu Bujinkan Dojos who are directly linked to the Soke or pick any one from this search link I included below, which I done on their behalf.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=bujinkan+dojos+sydney&btnG=Search

In closing, the letter you refer to is not Mr Roy's style and if you had known him as long as I have, you would have known this.

[Dennis Monk]

Mr. Sprinkle, Welcome to Budoseek. As per forum rules, each post must be signed with your real, full name. It is easiest to modify your signature by clicking on the User CP tab at the top of the screen.

[Kreth]

You base your case Mr Roley on a simple letter which in fact is a fake, designed to discredit Wayne Roy, it isn’t even his signature.
Strange that ROy's mouthpiece, Dean Whittle, failed to mention this when the letter was originally being discussed...

Why is it the Soke still validates all certificates on behalf of Mr Roy to date?
I'd love to see proof of this. Please scan and attach a certificate from the Bujinkan honbu that has been issued to one of Roy's students in the past year.

Why is it that any student under Mr Roy is welcomed at any other Bujinkan / affiliated to the Bujinkan dojo to undertake training, at the same grade with Mr Roy internationally?
Are you saying that a Bujinkan instructor has accepted a former Roy student and ranked them at the same level in the Bujinkan? Please provide proof of this as well.

Mr Roy has been highly regarded amongst the martial arts community and highly awarded (internationally) for his contributions over the many years. He has been sort by many government military, law enforcement, and security agencies in developing training programs.
Again, proof? I've had NY State Troopers and West Point cadets in my class, but I don't claim to be an official source of training for those organizations.

He has on many times along with other instructors of the Bujinkan internationally, made it quite publicly known such activities which discredit the face and name of the Bujinkan system. It is because of such things like this, that Mr Roy like other instructors like him chose to distance them selves of the Bujinkan.
Unethical things like trying to install himself as chairman of a government body overseeing martial arts?

In closing, the letter you refer to is not Mr Roy's style and if you had known him as long as I have, you would have known this.
As I said, it's strange that Dean Whittle didn't know...

Jeff

[Dean Whittle]

Unfortunately it appears that ‘Mr Sprinkle’ is misinformed on a number of issues.

Firstly, the letter from Mr Roy to Hatsumi-sensei is authentic, whether Hatsumi-sensei gave approval for a private letter to be posted on a website is another matter though…..

Secondly, Mr Roy’s organisation distanced itself from the Bujinkan in late 2000, early 2001 and we haven’t obtained any grading certificates from Japan since that time.

It is true that a number of our students have trained at the Bujinkan hombu dojo with no questions asked by any of the administrators. This most recently happened late last year when two students were in Tokyo visiting friends and took the opportunity to experience a lesson at the hombu. They even spoke briefly to Nagato-sensei who became aware that they were Mr Roy’s students but made no comment other than “that’s ok … it’s just politics.” However, it’s certainly not a regular thing for our students to visit Japan and train.

It is also true that a number of fomer students have been accepted at Bujinkan schools with their existing rank. Some of whom were subsequently promoted to black belt. I’m not too sure what ‘proof’ you’re looking for Mr Velten on this matter, but I can provide the names of some of the students and the instructor they went to by PM if you wish to ‘check’.

It is not true the Mr Roy tried ‘to install himself as chairman of a government body overseeing martial arts’. Mr Roy did establish a Ninjutsu Association, in conjunction with a Bujinkan judan (Mr Mike Hammond), in response to on-going changes in Australian legislation relating to teaching martial arts and owning various ‘prohibited’ weapons. This Association was established to assist Ninjutsu/Bujinkan instructors and students in becoming accredited in accordance with proposed government legislation but it is not a ‘government’ body. The last I heard a number of Bujinkan instructors were looking at establishing a similar Association catering specifically to those Bujinkan instructors that did not wish to be ‘associated’ with Mr Roy or Mr Hammond.

I trust this clarifies the matters raised.

With respect

[Kreth]

It is also true that a number of fomer students have been accepted at Bujinkan schools with their existing rank. Some of whom were subsequently promoted to black belt. I’m not too sure what ‘proof’ you’re looking for Mr Velten on this matter, but I can provide the names of some of the students and the instructor they went to by PM if you wish to ‘check’.
"Mr. Sprinkle" made it sound like Roy's student's walked into a Bujinkan dojo and were granted equivalent licenses in the Bujinkan. That's quite different than training at a Bujinkan dojo. Of course, I think if you walk into a dojo outside your own style, you should have the common courtesy to throw on a white belt, but that's another matter...

It is not true the Mr Roy tried ‘to install himself as chairman of a government body overseeing martial arts’. Mr Roy did establish a Ninjutsu Association, in conjunction with a Bujinkan judan (Mr Mike Hammond), in response to on-going changes in Australian legislation relating to teaching martial arts and owning various ‘prohibited’ weapons. This Association was established to assist Ninjutsu/Bujinkan instructors and students in becoming accredited in accordance with proposed government legislation but it is not a ‘government’ body. The last I heard a number of Bujinkan instructors were looking at establishing a similar Association catering specifically to those Bujinkan instructors that did not wish to be ‘associated’ with Mr Roy or Mr Hammond.
I direct your attention to this thread (http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=659&forum=7&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=10). Apparently the NITAA was not itself a government body, but several non-members were not pleased with the way Roy misrepresented the organization as having control over all Ninjutsu dojo, not just his own.

Jeff

[Don Roley]

You base your case Mr Roley on a simple letter which in fact is a fake, designed to discredit Wayne Roy, it isn’t even his signature.

The letter is not a fake. Or are you saying that Hatsumi himself is lying?

Wayne wrote the letter and sent it to Hatsumi. On another forum many of Roy's students screamed about how Hatsumi let a private letter be published. They did not at first try to claim that the letter was a forgery. That is a recent invention by the cult that follows Wayne L. Roy despite all the sins he has committed.

It all come down to the idea of- do you want to follow a guy that would do this, and then have his orginization deny a basic fact like this?

Oh, and let us just set the standards here. Until Wayne L. Roy chooses to deny this himself, let us treat this letter as fact. Gee, doesn't that change the strategy of deception we see? Roy (as a native English speaker and with access to the internet) could make a claim on- line to deny this. But he has not. Thus we are dealing with underlings trying to defend their cult leader without statements by the cult leader to back them up.

[CelticWarrrior]

THAT'S ENOUGH!! I started this thread to get the opinion of so-called experts on video and book instruction and you turn it into a slagging competition about Wayne Roy!! :mad: If you can't keep to the topic or do not have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say regarding the actual topic, then please STAY OUT!

[Webmaster]

THAT'S ENOUGH!! I started this thread to get the opinion of so-called experts on video and book instruction and you turn it into a slagging competition about Wayne Roy!! :mad: If you can't keep to the topic or do not have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say regarding the actual topic, then please STAY OUT!
Bravo Laura!

The rest of you, knock it off. I got tired of dealing with the Hapkido folks ripping each other apart and now I am starting to get sick of the Ninpo folks doing the same.

Keep this up, and you may find that this forum goes the way of the dodo along with several memberships. :mad:

[Don Roley]

I am really interested in learning Ninjutsu but the only school closest to me is one of Wayne Roy's (I've heard that they arent all that good. Can someone explain why, if not here than in a PM or email?).

I think the above is the reason we spent so much time talking about Wayne L Roy rather than video instruction. Some of us thought you were interested in the reasons and tried to answer as best we could.

I hope you got some answers and took my advice to look onother forums. This subject always ends up in flame wars and they do not like them here.