Founders Or Restructured?

[sidekick]

Since we were graciously stimulated to allow the other thread to dissipate, this is an off shoot and in no way inter-related to the subject matter of said thread.

Bruce Lee, Gracie, Ji Han Jae, Uyesba, Kano, Funikoshi, etc. these are true Founders!

OK, Founders of what?

Bruce Lee had some formal training in Kung Fu and he did nothing more than delete things he felt were of little use - Keep what works / discard the rest.

The Gracie's were training in JJ and restructured(?) things that they felt were important to them, nothing more.

Ji Han Jae was trained in one thing and added aspects from something(s) else. Nothing of which was new or never seen.

Uyesba also eliminated things from the system he already studied and to talk to some people, did a dis-service to the original art/discipline.

Kano also removed aspects of a discipline he was training in and made it softer. Nothing new, just a reformation and deletion of techniques.

Funikoshi = Karate. Just what did he bring to the table that wasen't already there?

All these people were trained and decided to venture off on their own and project something that they felt was different. In reality, anything that they decided to show was based upon the principles and techniques they were taught by someone else. They either added or subtracted to what was already being taught/used and what they added they learned again from someone else.

Mike Dunn

[DragonMind]

The folks you mentioned created a subdiscipline out of the greater whole of human combat. The only true "inventors", which is what I'm interpreting you to mean as your definition of a founder, were Oog and Moog. Oog smacked Moog upside the head and invented unarmed combat. Moog picked up a stick and stabbed him back, inventing weapons combat. Everybody after that is a derivative. OK, with the possible exception of Boog who sat on Moog to keep him from poking him with that blasted stick and created grappling.

What seems to be everyone's hang-up is how much deviation is required before you say you have created something new as opposed to simply rearranging the old. We will never find a measurable criterion for that and should stop trying. Mathematicians call this fuzzy logic (in contrast to Aristotelian logic http://www.abelard.org/category/category.htm) and it has no single answer. For example, we can look at a real apple and a wooden apple sitting side by side. At what point does the wooden one stop being an apple? Fuzzy logic talks in terms of degrees of "apple-ness". I'm afraid when it comes to this topic, the best we're going to be able to do is try to settle on an art's degree of foundation-ness and leave it at that. We will never get agreement at where the point is that it stops being whatever the base was.

Frankly, is it really that important? Kano founded judo on the precept of creating a subset of JJ that could be practiced safely and competitively by school children as a way of teaching them a healthy lifestyle and self discipline. What he created was a curriculum and procedures that supported that goal. Judging by what has happened since, I'd say he succeeded admirably. Is it really beneficial to berate him for naming his creation judo as opposed to calling it JJ-lite or judo-JJ?

We're seeing the same silly stuff in Hapkido. Does it really matter if Ji added to Choi's material and called it Sin Moo Hapkido? Does it really matter that Pellegrini made his changes and called it Combat Hapkido? The real issue seems to be the degree of Hapkido-ness each person ascribes to the new form and a subjective judgement of when it stops being Hapkido. Instead of putting down folks who do that, why aren't we trying to show by example what the best of Hapkido looks like? That's what I think folks like Ji, Chang, Lim, Timmerman, West, Booth and others are trying to do. Instead of attacking Lumpkin and telling him he's 'not one of us', maybe we should be extending a hand and finding out where on the Hapkido spectrum he is and talk about what he wants to do. You might find that he could want to add to his style if we shared with him what the "Hapkido-ness" is that we practice instead of outright rejecting him. Maybe what scares some folks is that we may have to refine our definition of Hapkido-ness because of what he show us.

Whatever the reasons, let's stop all this crap about who can and can't call something Hapkido. Negative actions will not resolve the issue nor will they create the shining example of what Hapkido is. There's no trademark on the name, so quit playing lawyer with it. Let the world see what Hapkido is and judge for themselves on the newcomers.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Interesting topic. I think that the one thing that strikes me is that, especially in America, there are so many "Founders" that have a black belt here and there, and maybe a few under black belts, "combine" this all together and "poof" 10th dan of a "new" martial art.

With very few exceptions, "legitimate" new martial arts seem to be founded by those that have long term study - not just bits and pieces - further, in general, new arts were given new names - or at least were so different from the original that real differences in theory and technique are evident.

I rarely see that in the new breed of arts here in America...

Barry, in a real sense I agree with you, except, and I point no fingers here, I have had in the last few days people come into my Dojang to see what is "different" in what I teach compared to other Hapkido schools in my area. The biggest problem comes from the fact that if we all use the name "Hapkido" without a real common sense of technique and lineage, I am not surprised when I hear "I've seen Hapkido - " , you can fill in whatever you want here. But if the end is negative, and they have only seen a Hapkido dervative, all of us have been done a disservice.

[Kumbajah]

I'll agree that nothing comes from a vacuum. We are influenced by things and people that came before. But I think that you are over simplifying the contributions of these men.

In short:

Bruce - studied multiple arts and took what he found useful from them. (ex studied fight films of Muhammad Ali and took from his technique, high kicks form Jhoon Rhee ) Didn't just dumb down Yip Man's teaching. See Tao of Jeet Jun Do

Gracies - Learned Judo not JJ - Adapted techniques to be more useful to smaller men. Hard to deny that their ground game exceeds that of present day Judo. See any graciephile site.

Ji - cane and spinning heel kick - Koreanized DRAJJ

Aikido - far different approach to self defense - not trying to injure opponent. Also tried to eliminate use of strength in techniques. See Aikido and Dynamic Sphere.

Kano - Structured JJ to be practiced "live". Also stressed importance of Kazushi - concept was there but not stressed. Belts and testing structure - gave training more academic flavor. see Kodokan

Funikoshi - adopted belt structure and made system more palatable for masses.

The advancements that these people made were not necessarily in technique but in how the arts are practiced. How the arts were viewed. (practiced by perceived thugs- to practiced by masses) They brought the arts from Jitsu to the Do. There influence is definitely felt in the way MAs are practiced today.

Brian Beach

[American HKD]

I'll agree that nothing comes from a vacuum. We are influenced by things and people that came before. But I think that you are over simplifying the contributions of these men.

In short:

Bruce - studied multiple arts and took what he found useful from them. (ex studied fight films of Muhammad Ali and took from his technique, high kicks form Jhoon Rhee ) Didn't just dumb down Yip Man's teaching. See Tao of Jeet Jun Do

Gracies - Learned Judo not JJ - Adapted techniques to be more useful to smaller men. Hard to deny that their ground game exceeds that of present day Judo. See any graciephile site.

Ji - cane and spinning heel kick - Koreanized DRAJJ

Aikido - far different approach to self defense - not trying to injure opponent. Also tried to eliminate use of strength in techniques. See Aikido and Dynamic Sphere.

Kano - Structured JJ to be practiced "live". Also stressed importance of Kazushi - concept was there but not stressed. Belts and testing structure - gave training more academic flavor. see Kodokan

Funikoshi - adopted belt structure and made system more palatable for masses.

The advancements that these people made were not necessarily in technique but in how the arts are practiced. How the arts were viewed. (practiced by perceived thugs- to practiced by masses) They brought the arts from Jitsu to the Do. There influence is definitely felt in the way MAs are practiced today.

Brian Beach


Brian
You hit the nail on the head.

Barry
good points

Kevin
these founders are a far cry from the ones who mix a few techniques together and call it Hapkido/combat hapkido or whatever.

[starkjudo]

Barry, I think you've got it exactly right.

Let's face it: There are always going to be those who A) don't practice an art in what you consider to be a correct manner, B) practice it exactly the way you think it should be, or C) are inept/crooked in the manner they handle it.

TKD has pretty much learned at this point that its good instructors can only distance themselves just so far from the bad ones. What it ultimately going to matter is a combination of the quality of the instructor and the quality of the art. Unless you have a viable combination of both, you need to keep looking.

[iron_ox]

Kevin
these founders are a far cry from the ones who mix a few techniques together and call it Hapkido/combat hapkido or whatever.

Hello Stuart,

Absolutely true, I am only really interested and concerned with Hapkido, so didn't address the listed group. On my list, however, I would not mix the group that was listed, there were martial artists and "others" in that group...trying to be positive here.

[sidekick]

The only true "inventors", which is what I'm interpreting you to mean as your definition of a founder, were Oog and Moog.

Youse guys talkin about Vinny Oog from Brooklyn and Tony Moog from Jersey City?........... :cool:

The problem that I profess to have is the deification that is bestowed on anyone from oriental heritage, that constructs, in Barry's words - a subdiscipline. I understand that the foundation(s) of the arts, in general, are derived from the orient, but that does not give them or should it give them card blanche to be "all everything". Even in todays society, an American attempts to "redesign the wheel", he gets pummeled by almost everyone. Dosen't matter if what he has formulated is good or not. Granted, if it's bad he deserves to get what he gets, but if it's good - just a different take on things, that dosen't matter. But let someone from the orient do the same thing and it's accepted with open arms by the martial arts world in general. The Gracie's seem to be the exception to the rule, and that unto itself is strange, since as was pointed out, they did Judo but it became JuJitsu.

According to the history channel, the French are credited with the first automobile. Do we offer homage to them and except any and everything that comes from them, auto related? Of course not, for the U.S. became the automotive industry leader because we saw it, embraced it, perfected it and did our own thing with it. So it seems OK for Americans to delve into everything, but martial arts?

I'm not trying to discredit any of the people used as a reference. What Kano, Ji and company have done was to open different venues of the arts and empower more people to become involved. This was good, but why does this have to be limited only to them. In essence, they did the same thing(s) that some of our American counterparts are attempting to do. Reformulate something to appeal to a broarder segment of our society.

Mike Dunn

[DragonMind]

Barry, in a real sense I agree with you, except, and I point no fingers here, I have had in the last few days people come into my Dojang to see what is "different" in what I teach compared to other Hapkido schools in my area. The biggest problem comes from the fact that if we all use the name "Hapkido" without a real common sense of technique and lineage, I am not surprised when I hear "I've seen Hapkido - " , you can fill in whatever you want here. But if the end is negative, and they have only seen a Hapkido dervative, all of us have been done a disservice.
A valid concern. Since we can't enforce a copyright on the name, there is nothing we really can do except show them a good version of Hapkido. The average consumer isn't going to know one flavor from another or even Hapkido from Judo without a map anyway. If you consider it, how is that question any different from someone saying "I saw Judo/Karate/Kung Fu/BJJ/Style-X and what makes you different"? We have to simply trust that what we put forth will rise above the rest because we produce students who are capable, competent and honorable. If we work to make ourselves the best we can be, we shouldn't worry about the wanna-bes. Show them what is different and trust them to judge which is better suited for them. Not everyone will want what you offer, but that's ok, so long as you can hold your head up knowing you are true to your ideals.

[DragonMind]

Youse guys talkin about Vinny Oog from Brooklyn and Tony Moog from Jersey City?........... :cool:

Mike Dunn
So you knows T'ree Finger Vinny and Tony Peanut Brain?!? :eek:

[jakmak52]

I know Oooog :eek:

[Kumbajah]

I think it has to do with nomenclature -

BL- renamed his art Jeet Kun Do
Gracies - Kodokan Judo became Gracie JJ
Ji Han Jae - (warning controversy) yusool or DRAJJ became Hapkido
Aikido from DRAJJ
Judo from JJ
Karate from Te

They set out to make a new thing and called it a new thing. They didn't just add "combat" or some other qualifier to the beginning of an existing art. They changed enough to be something different.

And as americans go - Ed Parker's American Kempo seems well established.

Brian Beach

[American HKD]

The only true "inventors", which is what I'm interpreting you to mean as your definition of a founder, were Oog and Moog.

Youse guys talkin about Vinny Oog from Brooklyn and Tony Moog from Jersey City?........... :cool:

The problem that I profess to have is the deification that is bestowed on anyone from oriental heritage, that constructs, in Barry's words - a subdiscipline. I understand that the foundation(s) of the arts, in general, are derived from the orient, but that does not give them or should it give them card blanche to be "all everything". Even in todays society, an American attempts to "redesign the wheel", he gets pummeled by almost everyone. Dosen't matter if what he has formulated is good or not. Granted, if it's bad he deserves to get what he gets, but if it's good - just a different take on things, that dosen't matter. But let someone from the orient do the same thing and it's accepted with open arms by the martial arts world in general. The Gracie's seem to be the exception to the rule, and that unto itself is strange, since as was pointed out, they did Judo but it became JuJitsu.

According to the history channel, the French are credited with the first automobile. Do we offer homage to them and except any and everything that comes from them, auto related? Of course not, for the U.S. became the automotive industry leader because we saw it, embraced it, perfected it and did our own thing with it. So it seems OK for Americans to delve into everything, but martial arts?

I'm not trying to discredit any of the people used as a reference. What Kano, Ji and company have done was to open different venues of the arts and empower more people to become involved. This was good, but why does this have to be limited only to them. In essence, they did the same thing(s) that some of our American counterparts are attempting to do. Reformulate something to appeal to a broarder segment of our society.

Mike Dunn

Greetings,

Mike try to think of a few native Americans (not Indian per se) but people who founded a universally accepted MA system. I think this will be real hard, but easier if we include Asians it may become a little easier after all MA is part of the Asian culture forever.

So far I only have,

Ed Parker ( father of American Kenpo ) a MA genious by all accounts.

My point is "real founders" are so few and far between even counting the Asians it's hard to name more than a handfull.

Today every guy who gets a black belt is making up a new system and becoming a founder.

[American HKD]

The only true "inventors", which is what I'm interpreting you to mean as your definition of a founder, were Oog and Moog.

Youse guys talkin about Vinny Oog from Brooklyn and Tony Moog from Jersey City?........... :cool:

The problem that I profess to have is the deification that is bestowed on anyone from oriental heritage, that constructs, in Barry's words - a subdiscipline. I understand that the foundation(s) of the arts, in general, are derived from the orient, but that does not give them or should it give them card blanche to be "all everything". Even in todays society, an American attempts to "redesign the wheel", he gets pummeled by almost everyone. Dosen't matter if what he has formulated is good or not. Granted, if it's bad he deserves to get what he gets, but if it's good - just a different take on things, that dosen't matter. But let someone from the orient do the same thing and it's accepted with open arms by the martial arts world in general. The Gracie's seem to be the exception to the rule, and that unto itself is strange, since as was pointed out, they did Judo but it became JuJitsu.

According to the history channel, the French are credited with the first automobile. Do we offer homage to them and except any and everything that comes from them, auto related? Of course not, for the U.S. became the automotive industry leader because we saw it, embraced it, perfected it and did our own thing with it. So it seems OK for Americans to delve into everything, but martial arts?

I'm not trying to discredit any of the people used as a reference. What Kano, Ji and company have done was to open different venues of the arts and empower more people to become involved. This was good, but why does this have to be limited only to them. In essence, they did the same thing(s) that some of our American counterparts are attempting to do. Reformulate something to appeal to a broarder segment of our society.

Mike Dunn

Greetings,

Mike try to think of a few native Americans (not Indian per se) but people who founded a universally accepted MA system. I think this will be real hard, but easier if we include Asians after all MA is part of the Asian culture forever.

So far I only have,

Ed Parker ( father of American Kenpo ) a MA genious by all accounts.

My point is "real founders" are so few and far between even counting the Asians it's hard to name more than a handfull.

Today every guy who gets a black belt is making up a new system and becoming a founder.

[sidekick]

My point is "real founders" are so few and far between even counting the Asians it's hard to name more than a handfull.

Stuart, I totally agree with this statement. It very hard to reinvent the wheel after it's been initially invented. But that has not stopped people from taking the wheel and making it better, fancier, bigger, etc. I personally don't consider Ed Parker or any of the other referenced names Founders. Perhaps were dealing with semantics here. Do I consider them innovators? Without a doubt. Did they invent something totally new, unseen, unheard off, NO! They formulated aspects of physical combativeness and gave it a facelift so to speak. That in a nut shell is my point on contention. 40+ kwans in KHF Hapkido, Upteen Ryu's of Goju/Shoto/Isshin, Kung Fu white crane, Tiger, Monkey, Drunken, Snake and so on. The listings can go on, but you see the point. No one said Oh no, they can't do that, but as we have seen they did do just that........started their own interpertation of previous training and everyone accepted it because it was fronted by someone of asian heritage. As an example, lets take Mr. Chuck Norris and this is one of the exceptions. He started his own organization with his own recipe of TSD, some Judo, a little BJJ and a sprinkling of Hapkido. I have never heard anyone say, where does he come off starting his own style/kwan. I personally don't see anything different between what he did and what all the other's before him have done.

Now as for every BB that takes some techniques and forms his own system, I agree in principle that the vast majority - like at least 97%, are full of themselves. They are only trying to milk the system. On the other hand, I have no reservations of looking at someone who has 20 to 30 years of training and teaching under their belt and feel that they have hit upon a different or alternative way of doing something. Krav Maga was accepted, BJJ was accepted, Systema was accepted. Are these something brand new? No, just somebodies accessment of doing something different.

Mike Dunn

[American HKD]

My point is "real founders" are so few and far between even counting the Asians it's hard to name more than a handfull.

Stuart, I totally agree with this statement. It very hard to reinvent the wheel after it's been initially invented. But that has not stopped people from taking the wheel and making it better, fancier, bigger, etc. I personally don't consider Ed Parker or any of the other referenced names Founders. Perhaps were dealing with semantics here. Do I consider them innovators? Without a doubt. Did they invent something totally new, unseen, unheard off, NO! They formulated aspects of physical combativeness and gave it a facelift so to speak. That in a nut shell is my point on contention. 40+ kwans in KHF Hapkido, Upteen Ryu's of Goju/Shoto/Isshin, Kung Fu white crane, Tiger, Monkey, Drunken, Snake and so on. The listings can go on, but you see the point. No one said Oh no, they can't do that, but as we have seen they did do just that........started their own interpertation of previous training and everyone accepted it because it was fronted by someone of asian heritage. As an example, lets take Mr. Chuck Norris and this is one of the exceptions. He started his own organization with his own recipe of TSD, some Judo, a little BJJ and a sprinkling of Hapkido. I have never heard anyone say, where does he come off starting his own style/kwan. I personally don't see anything different between what he did and what all the other's before him have done.

Now as for every BB that takes some techniques and forms his own system, I agree in principle that the vast majority - like at least 97%, are full of themselves. They are only trying to milk the system. On the other hand, I have no reservations of looking at someone who has 20 to 30 years of training and teaching under their belt and feel that they have hit upon a different or alternative way of doing something. Krav Maga was accepted, BJJ was accepted, Systema was accepted. Are these something brand new? No, just somebodies accessment of doing something different.

Mike Dunn

Innovator is a very good word here I like it alot, however not to many real innvators found out there either. Alot of mix and match fellows for sure, and we all know by now what I think of that.

1. Why then is there so many founders popping up all over the place rather than just Instructors? I only consider myself an HKD instructor and that will always be good enough for me, I know it's alway been good enough for my Master.

The rest is wanting to be top dog, give orders rather then take except for the few acceptions of course.

2. Must clarify, 40 plus KHF Kwans are accepted traditions only. No one is considered a "founder" in the KHF accept Choi #1 and Ji #2 and I agree with that 100%.

[sidekick]

Stuart, we may approach aspects of the discussion from different venues, but we are closer to being in agreement than being opposed to each other.

We agree on not many if any "Founders" are out there.
We agree on the term Innovator.
We also agree that there are not many true innovators, but there are some.
We agree that Choi was the inseption (new word here) of what went on to become Hapkido.
We agree that Ji is the artisan of the modern version of what is considered Hapkido and also the author of the accepted name - Hapkido.
We agree on the "Top Dog" reference of those that want to be something their not and not really entitled to either.
We also agree on finding and using "what works" and not belaboring what dosen't.

I understand there are no founders of Hapkido in the KHF, but only Kwan leaders. The reference was to point out that 40+ people decided to interpret similar concepts differently or actually made adjustments/changes to perceived protocols.

See, were so close we could be family..... :eek:

Respectfully
Mike Dunn, 2nd cousin, twice removed,,,,,, :wink2:

[American HKD]

Stuart, we may approach aspects of the discussion from different venues, but we are closer to being in agreement than being opposed to each other.

We agree on not many if any "Founders" are out there.
We agree on the term Innovator.
We also agree that there are not many true innovators, but there are some.
We agree that Choi was the inseption (new word here) of what went on to become Hapkido.
We agree that Ji is the artisan of the modern version of what is considered Hapkido and also the author of the accepted name - Hapkido.
We agree on the "Top Dog" reference of those that want to be something their not and not really entitled to either.
We also agree on finding and using "what works" and not belaboring what dosen't.

I understand there are no founders of Hapkido in the KHF, but only Kwan leaders. The reference was to point out that 40+ people decided to interpret similar concepts differently or actually made adjustments/changes to perceived protocols.

See, were so close we could be family..... :eek:

Respectfully
Mike Dunn, 2nd cousin, twice removed,,,,,, :wink2:


Mike

I guess we are very similar in our beliefs at the end of the day.

Somehow I'm still very traditional when it comes to Hapkido or protective maybe a better word when wantabe founders try to name thier new system Hapkido.

I don't know if I can ever handle that with grace.

[Michael Tomlinson]

No offense to anyone but my biggest problem with all these "new" so called founders is not so much why but how they do it... I know of several "founders" to new Hapkido orgs. that weren't even a Hapkido black belt long enough to understand basic movement... so what do we do then?? They pay someone money..get easy ranking and then by pass the major chunk of mat time.. and then sprinkle some incorporation papers and a "cool" name on it and now they are somehow pioneers and on equal ground with all those mentioned before??? I can't buy in to that guys...sorry... if you want to know which apple has the most "appleness" the wooden one or the one off the tree..simple just bite the dang thing...
Michael Tomlinson

[Spartan]

...... if you want to know which apple has the most "appleness" the wooden one or the one off the tree..simple just bite the dang thing...
HAHHAAHAHHAHHA!!! Bravo! Bravo! :D

[DragonMind]

No offense to anyone but my biggest problem with all these "new" so called founders is not so much why but how they do it... I know of several "founders" to new Hapkido orgs. that weren't even a Hapkido black belt long enough to understand basic movement... so what do we do then?? They pay someone money..get easy ranking and then by pass the major chunk of mat time.. and then sprinkle some incorporation papers and a "cool" name on it and now they are somehow pioneers and on equal ground with all those mentioned before??? I can't buy in to that guys...sorry... if you want to know which apple has the most "appleness" the wooden one or the one off the tree..simple just bite the dang thing...
Michael Tomlinson
You can't stop fraud and continuously railing against it is pure Quixote.

As for the apple, how about I add a wax one? How about an apple-pear cross? At what point does it stop being an apple? Your biting test is still trying to use Aristotelian logic and it just won't work. It is impossible to define all the characteristics that make an apple to come up with a binary decision.

Apple Computer has tried for years to stifle others trying to make Mac-like computers. They're a niche player in the market. IBM realized that was tilting at windmills and just focused on building the highest quality machine. Today, 9 out of 10 machines on people's desks are IBM compatibles while Apple is now selling music players.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Yep BUT there is still a big difference between a Dell and a Packard Bell...even if they are both IBM knock offs....

Barry,, you are getting pretty deep on here lately brother... you better check those mushrooms on your pizza!!! Ha Ha :cool:
Michael Tomlinson

[sungjado]

I am a bit biased toward Shinsei and GM Lumpkin and Master Daryl Covington. I believe they are teaching Hapkido, no matter what it is called. Just as I teach Sungjado (and add hapkido to the name when I do the hapkido I learned back in the 70's.) I also add Taekwondo to Sungjado (when I do the taekwondo I was taught back in the 60's.)
Someone once asked me if I was teaching JKD and my answer was yes and no. Yes, because what I teach is eclectic and no because it is not part of Bruce Lee's JKD.
But I do teach Hapkido, even though I wasn't taught by Choi or Ji. I don't teach Shinsei either, because I have not learned all that entails the Shinsei style.
Now, after 40+ years of teaching Hapkido and Taekwondo, and holding the ranks of 7th Dahn in Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido and 8th dahn in UTB Taekwondo, I feel qualified to teach some beginners, no matter what their rank.
I am 60 years of age and feel that this question of what is the "true art of hapkido" is a silly question.
Hapkido is based on Aiki-Jujitsu and other arts (when you add Ji's curriculum) and Taekwondo is based on Shotokan Karate. So what!

Now a shameless plug for me: February 18th I will teach in Kenner, LA and February 25th I will teach in Bonham, TX. I will teach Sungjado Hapkido!!!

Of course all this is just in fun for me as I know I will never meet any of you, like I have met with my friends Lumpkin and Covington.

Keep the faith boys and girls----John 3:16

George Petrotta (in case my sig doesn't appear) :)

[sidekick]

Nevermind................ :embarrass


Mike Dunn :bow:

[American HKD]

I am a bit biased toward Shinsei and GM Lumpkin and Master Daryl Covington. I believe they are teaching Hapkido, no matter what it is called. Just as I teach Sungjado (and add hapkido to the name when I do the hapkido I learned back in the 70's.) I also add Taekwondo to Sungjado (when I do the taekwondo I was taught back in the 60's.)
Someone once asked me if I was teaching JKD and my answer was yes and no. Yes, because what I teach is eclectic and no because it is not part of Bruce Lee's JKD.
But I do teach Hapkido, even though I wasn't taught by Choi or Ji. I don't teach Shinsei either, because I have not learned all that entails the Shinsei style.
Now, after 40+ years of teaching Hapkido and Taekwondo, and holding the ranks of 7th Dahn in Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido and 8th dahn in UTB Taekwondo, I feel qualified to teach some beginners, no matter what their rank.
I am 60 years of age and feel that this question of what is the "true art of hapkido" is a silly question.
Hapkido is based on Aiki-Jujitsu and other arts (when you add Ji's curriculum) and Taekwondo is based on Shotokan Karate. So what!

Now a shameless plug for me: February 18th I will teach in Kenner, LA and February 25th I will teach in Bonham, TX. I will teach Sungjado Hapkido!!!

Of course all this is just in fun for me as I know I will never meet any of you, like I have met with my friends Lumpkin and Covington.

Keep the faith boys and girls----John 3:16

George Petrotta (in case my sig doesn't appear) :)

Greetings,

What is your Hapkido background and from who?

What is the World Moo Sul Kwan conection to any known Hapkido roots,?
Who taught the Master of Mu Sool Kwan Hapkido?

I'm just trying to get an idea of your Hapkido lineage.

[Jeff C.]

http://www.itbf.de/html/BiographyGMPDP.htm

American College of Martial Science. Ouch. Run by "Dr." Jason Hunt, the "founder" of this business - whose age is only in his twenties.

Do a search on e-budo of Jason Hunt. Good stuff!

Mr. Petrotta, has Mr. Hunt overcome some of his "difficulties" yet? If you are not aware of them, you may want to check into it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[sungjado]

I have not conversed with "dr" hunt in a couple of years. I agree with all that you find wrong with him and what he does. Enough said.

I received my 7th Dahn from the World Moosul Kwan Federation and personally from GM Derman B. Hodge, Sr. He is my senior in Hapkido and is very knowledgeable in his Hapkido.

My own background in Hapkido is suspect at best because the person who taught me is not to be found. I was working at a paper mill in the early 70's in Oklahoma and he was on one of the construction crews that were sub-contractors on the building site. He attended one of my TKD classes and after class began throwing me around with ease. I had already studied Judo, and so I made him look real good. He was of Korean descent and did not speak very good English. He left the job site and the city after about two years. I did a search in 1997 after I got on the internet, but couldn't find him or any record of him with B&R Construction.
Then I received instruction from Master Wayland Lacy in Texas, who was a 4th Dahn at that time. Like I said before I have not trained under Choi or Ji or anybody who claimed to have trained under them.
I have been accepted by the World Kido Federation as a 7th Dahn though, just waiting to see if it is worth the money to join.

Thanks for asking,

[sungjado]

http://www.itbf.de/html/BiographyGMPDP.htm

I hadn't seen that page in a long time. Back in early 2002, I publicly denounced all rank above 8th Dahn in TKD and 8th Dahn in SJD. As far as the doctorates, well they make good toliet paper. The professorship was real though.
I publicly and privately told all who promoted me to 9th and 10th degree that I would not accept the rank. The above URL was done by one of my members from Germany and he basically copied it from a page I made that embarassed me a few months later. We all make mistakes, and I sure did on accepting those rankings.

[Spartan]

Your total membership due must be astronomical.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I'm now anouncing my new style of Hapkido is called the "Ultimate Hapkido of the Martial Tao", it incorporates every style know to man since the Cain killed Abel.

My certificates are comming from the printer tomorow endorsed by the New World Federation of all Martial Arts, all signed by GM Moe, Larry and Curly and the Soke board of the Marx Brothers.

You all must call me "Supreme Grandmaster the highest of the high" from now on.

I will certifiy anyone who wants it for money, however you have to watch and memorize the entire Kung Fu TV Series and every Bruce Lee movie.
The test will cost $100.00 per Dan rank, cash or MO only.

Good night all you foolish people who actually wasted years learning a Martial Art and earning a real rank. :laugh:

[American HKD]

I have not conversed with "dr" hunt in a couple of years. I agree with all that you find wrong with him and what he does. Enough said.

I received my 7th Dahn from the World Moosul Kwan Federation and personally from GM Derman B. Hodge, Sr. He is my senior in Hapkido and is very knowledgeable in his Hapkido.

My own background in Hapkido is suspect at best because the person who taught me is not to be found. I was working at a paper mill in the early 70's in Oklahoma and he was on one of the construction crews that were sub-contractors on the building site. He attended one of my TKD classes and after class began throwing me around with ease. I had already studied Judo, and so I made him look real good. He was of Korean descent and did not speak very good English. He left the job site and the city after about two years. I did a search in 1997 after I got on the internet, but couldn't find him or any record of him with B&R Construction.
Then I received instruction from Master Wayland Lacy in Texas, who was a 4th Dahn at that time. Like I said before I have not trained under Choi or Ji or anybody who claimed to have trained under them.
I have been accepted by the World Kido Federation as a 7th Dahn though, just waiting to see if it is worth the money to join.

Thanks for asking,

Greetings

You must be one of the best MA in the world with your resume, it's so unbelievable that a man can completly Master so many styles in only 40 years in the Arts I commend your efforts.

A 7th Dan in Hapkido from who again and please list your instructors Hapkido resumes and thier lineages.

[sidekick]

Excuse me oh SGMOTHOTH, what can I get for a $1.49 and a couple of free training coupons from Ralphs carpet installations and self defense emporium?

Do I have to buy a dobok or can I rent one?
If I train twice as hard, say 1/2 hour in the morning and another 1/2 hour at night, every other day, when could I expect to be promoted?

Thank you your GrandPooBaaness
Mike "The Pontificator" Dunn

[iron_ox]

Like I said before I have not trained under Choi or Ji or anybody who claimed to have trained under them.


Hello all,

I would dare say with this statement that if this is the case, then you have not trained in Hapkido.

Just my humble opinion.

[sungjado]

You are entitled to your opinion.

[American HKD]

Greetings

Todays Hapkido special,

2 Ranks for the price of one, or 10% off of any GM certification.

Hurry while supplies last!

Please send cash or MO to:

Ultimate Hapkido of the Martial Tao
Attn: Supreme GM Stuart Rosenberg
123 Doju Drive
Highrank NJ 67890

P.S. Please watch for our weekly specials

[sungjado]

I've heard all this before from lesser and greater individuals than yourselves. My "hapkido" has worked for me as a nightclub bouncer in Oklahoma and in the security business at Myrtle Beach, SC. So you are also entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that it works for me and I call it "hapkido" because my instructors called it "hapkido."

[American HKD]

You are entitled to your opinion.

Dear George,

All I asked for was your hapkido lineage and teachers that can trace to the founders of the system to give you claim of 7th dan some credibility.

Regardless of your skills which may be very good the only way I know for anyone to actually receive or earn a legitimate Hapkido rank is from a legit HKD Master.

If not, it's just unfounded claims on as you said a peice of toilet paper.

BTW you can join my new system Ultimate Hapkido of the Martial Tao it's only for $1000.00 for a GM certificate it's totally legit.

[sungjado]

Dear Stuart,

I received my 7th Dahn from the World Moosul Kwan Federation and personally from GM Derman B. Hodge, Sr. He is my senior in Hapkido and is very knowledgeable in his Hapkido.

My own background in Hapkido is suspect at best because the person who taught me is not to be found. I was working at a paper mill in the early 70's in Oklahoma and he was on one of the construction crews that were sub-contractors on the building site. He attended one of my TKD classes and after class began throwing me around with ease. I had already studied Judo, and so I made him look real good. He was of Korean descent and did not speak very good English. He left the job site and the city after about two years. I did a search in 1997 after I got on the internet, but couldn't find him or any record of him with B&R Construction.
Then I received instruction from Master Wayland Lacy in Texas, who was a 4th Dahn at that time. Like I said before I have not trained under Choi or Ji or anybody who claimed to have trained under them.
I have been accepted by the World Kido Federation as a 7th Dahn though, just waiting to see if it is worth the money to join.

As far as my background, I searched my files last night and here is what I came up with:

1963--Started playing Judo while in the USAF
1963-1973---rank in Judo, and Aiki-Jujitsu from various instructors.
Hapkido rank:
1973--1st Dahn from the Korean construction worker.
1977--2nd Dahn from Master Bob Ware and Ken Womack.
1983--3rd Dahn from Master Ken Womack and Master Wayland Lacy.
1988--4th Dahn from GM Jong Bo Kim
1990--5th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge
1994--6th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge
1998--7th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge

I have also studied with Master Dave Weatherly and received a ChoDan Bo from him in his KukSool Hapkido.

I have not attended any seminars by GM Ji, GM West or GM Whalen.

All the higher ranks were awarded to me but I denounced them, all except one from the KFCI.
:bow:

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart,

I received my 7th Dahn from the World Moosul Kwan Federation and personally from GM Derman B. Hodge, Sr. He is my senior in Hapkido and is very knowledgeable in his Hapkido.

My own background in Hapkido is suspect at best because the person who taught me is not to be found. I was working at a paper mill in the early 70's in Oklahoma and he was on one of the construction crews that were sub-contractors on the building site. He attended one of my TKD classes and after class began throwing me around with ease. I had already studied Judo, and so I made him look real good. He was of Korean descent and did not speak very good English. He left the job site and the city after about two years. I did a search in 1997 after I got on the internet, but couldn't find him or any record of him with B&R Construction.
Then I received instruction from Master Wayland Lacy in Texas, who was a 4th Dahn at that time. Like I said before I have not trained under Choi or Ji or anybody who claimed to have trained under them.
I have been accepted by the World Kido Federation as a 7th Dahn though, just waiting to see if it is worth the money to join.

As far as my background, I searched my files last night and here is what I came up with:

1963--Started playing Judo while in the USAF
1963-1973---rank in Judo, and Aiki-Jujitsu from various instructors.
Hapkido rank:
1973--1st Dahn from the Korean construction worker.
1977--2nd Dahn from Master Bob Ware and Ken Womack.
1983--3rd Dahn from Master Ken Womack and Master Wayland Lacy.
1988--4th Dahn from GM Jong Bo Kim
1990--5th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge
1994--6th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge
1998--7th Dahn from GM Derman B. Hodge

I have also studied with Master Dave Weatherly and received a ChoDan Bo from him in his KukSool Hapkido.

I have not attended any seminars by GM Ji, GM West or GM Whalen.

All the higher ranks were awarded to me but I denounced them, all except one from the KFCI.
:bow:

George

Thanks for the info.

My main point is so many people say that they hold rank in Hapkido from someone. To hold rank in Hapkido you must come from true Hapkido lineage meaning your ranks must come from someone who also has the lineage.

If you instructor's don't have the lineage either regardless of what Dan you get promoted to it's still NOT legit Hapkido rank.

I don't know the background of your instructor's nor do I really want to, but if you or anyone is going to claim a certian rank Hapkido you should be able to account for it or it's simply fraud.

Good luck to you.

[Mst Whalen]

I have also studied with Master Dave Weatherly and received a ChoDan Bo from him in his KukSool Hapkido.

I have not attended any seminars by GM Ji, GM West or GM Whalen.

All the higher ranks were awarded to me but I denounced them, all except one from the KFCI.
:bow:[/QUOTE / ]

I have some time so I thought I would add my 2 cents or with inflation $1

I noticed that you mentioned Dave Weatherly , kind of interesting years ago around 1985 I met Dave when he taught Hapkido in Flint Michigan . And he was the self appointed president of the North American Hapkido Federation (AKA Weatherly enterprise's) He appointed me as the Vice president sigth unseen , as he thought my Korean link and the fact I was a 4th Dan from the KHA it could or would benefit his group. This also happened to another Friend Whom watches this list was made the Secretary General ,Because his Father in law is korean and is also A Hapkido Master.

When we were in Flint we conducted a large Demonstration . It drew about 400 or so it was impressive to say the least ( we were All younger)

In order to promote the seminar / Demonstration they did several articles in the local newspapers about the instructors and guests . It was somehow felt they needed some pictures for publicity they improvised and used some guys picture and said it was me , It wasn't he was much better looking and it was a disappointment to my fiance at the Time hahaha.....

At this time Dave had stated his instructor was the younger brother of Ji Han Jae . Actually his Master was Jae Son Ji . And he had been his only Student . The real kicker is because of his superb Hapkido skills and Value to his native korea was being held in a monastery in korea and never allowed to leave and only Dave knew how to contact him.

I contacted Ji.Han jae and asked about this and he laughed and stated his younger Brother had minimal training in Hapkido and his teacher Was Yu.Chun he the head of chundokwan to which i belong .

The funny thing is Master Ji said : That Weatherly was lying that if his brother did teach him He would be a Hotel manager because this is what his brother does not only that there is no such person as Jae Son Ji .

It is not as difficult as one might think to verify claims of ranks in Hapkido even before the internet People heard through the Grapevine who was who and someone somewhere would Know something or someone whom could verify claims or such .

One last thing What does KFCI stand for ? First thing that came to Mind was KFC ? Sorry I could not pass this up.....

HAPKI.........

[iron_ox]

Mr. Petrotta,

Just a few questions if you will indulge me please.

http://www.sungjado.org/george_petrotta_certificates.html

According to this site, with some of your impressive collection of certificates on it, it lists November 1, 1996 as a particularly tough day for you as you sat for both your Hapkido 7th Dan and Chang Hun Taekwondo 7th dan on the same day - this must have been a challenge, was that tough?

Also, as you are listed with rank in Chang Hun Taekwondo, the style of now dead Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, which ITC organization will I find your rank listed with?

Finally, and just a bit of a puzzle to me, as I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, you are the founder of Sungja-do, so why is it that Derman Hodge appears to hold higher rank than you in this style?

See: http://www.worldmoosulkwan.com/GMBio.htm

Sorry to ask, but I only claim rank in a single style and this is all quite dizzying for me.

[sungjado]

I knew a long time ago that Dave was a fraud. He learned Kuk Sool Won and started promoting it as Hapkido. Dave was the complete egotist. That is one of the reasons I didn't stay with him too long.
I once asked around on the Dojang Digest about this other Ji fellow but nobody had heard of him. In the manual that Dave gave out to his NAHA and SunMooKwan members he had a picture of his GM. I believe it was one of the Moon brothers from the Michigan area. I just mentioned his name as I was trying to be truthful.
KFCI is Karate For Christ International under Joseph Lumpkin and Daryl Covington.
:bow:

[sungjado]

Mr. Petrotta,

Just a few questions if you will indulge me please.

http://www.sungjado.org/george_petrotta_certificates.html

According to this site, with some of your impressive collection of certificates on it, it lists November 1, 1996 as a particularly tough day for you as you sat for both your Hapkido 7th Dan and Chang Hun Taekwondo 7th dan on the same day - this must have been a challenge, was that tough?

Also, as you are listed with rank in Chang Hun Taekwondo, the style of now dead Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, which ITC organization will I find your rank listed with?

Finally, and just a bit of a puzzle to me, as I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, you are the founder of Sungja-do, so why is it that Derman Hodge appears to hold higher rank than you in this style?

See: http://www.worldmoosulkwan.com/GMBio.htm

Sorry to ask, but I only claim rank in a single style and this is all quite dizzying for me.
Yes, it was tough and was very challenging as you might assume.
The Chang Hun Taekwondo Association is not the Chang "Hon" Taekwondo.
The Chang Hun Taekwondo Association was formed by GM Hodge. It has nothing to do with the ITF, ITU, ITC, WTF or any other TKD organization.

That was an error on GM Hodge's webmasters part. During my few months of ego driven grab the rank, I promoted GM Hodge and GM Humesky to 1oth Dan because they were my seniors. After I came to my senses, I recinded their rank to equal mine within my organization, which is my perogative.
:bow:

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

To take this in another direction. I think we have all found a wacko instructor or two in our day. OK, enough said. But, if you know full well that an instructor is dubious, do you still list him in your credencials and show his rank certificate as part of you "collection"?

I know that for me, when I found one of my instructor's to be lacking, I still list them in my "list" of instructors, but use his rank cets. at my dojang to demonstrate that anyone can hand out worthless paper...

What are others experiences with this.

[iron_ox]

Greetings,

I'm now anouncing my new style of Hapkido is called the "Ultimate Hapkido of the Martial Tao", it incorporates every style know to man since the Cain killed Abel.

My certificates are comming from the printer tomorow endorsed by the New World Federation of all Martial Arts, all signed by GM Moe, Larry and Curly and the Soke board of the Marx Brothers.

You all must call me "Supreme Grandmaster the highest of the high" from now on.

I will certifiy anyone who wants it for money, however you have to watch and memorize the entire Kung Fu TV Series and every Bruce Lee movie.
The test will cost $100.00 per Dan rank, cash or MO only.

Good night all you foolish people who actually wasted years learning a Martial Art and earning a real rank. :laugh:

Hello Stuart,

Here is your target audience: http://www.worldmoosulkwan.com/GMBio.htm- with 67 listed dan ranks, this could bring you, what $6700 - wowza! :laugh:

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Before this thread was hijacked to drag us back into the fantasy world of the mega-ranked...we were discussing the role of founders versus innovators. Clearly from the last few bits of info here, "Founders" in America see mega-rank as a core of their authority. Oddly enough, it seems in Asia, "founders" base their authority on training - and rarely seem to take any rank at all - lets get back to this discussion please!! I hope I'm not the only one tired of the "rank like poker chips discussion..."

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I just don't get it, you guys all want to be truthfull and you list a bunch of wacky Hapkido ranks from anybody just cause they offer you a rank?

Stop making up crazy claims of Hapkido ranks it's that simple, either you have it or you don't, stop telling people you are Hapkido Masters when your not.

Stop making up new Hapkido systems based on questionable rank in the first place.

The Karate for Christ people should make an extra effort to be truthfull and accurate since you minister right in the Dojang from my understanding its part of your requirements.

My only reason for saying this stuff is because too many people make false claims of being HKD teachers/Masters with new system which hurt the real system and real instructors and present a false truths to the public.

[starkjudo]

The Karate for Christ people should make an extra effort to be truthfull and accurate since you minister right in the Dojang from my understanding its part of your requirements.

My only reason for saying this stuff is because too many people make false claims of being HKD teachers/Masters with new system which hurt the real system and real instructors and present a false truths to the public.

The Karate for Christ people are being truthful. They're doing a legitimate, effective art, and have made no uber-dan claims. Jumping through hoops to please others should never have to be part of the requirements for "legitimacy." While I'm a student of Judo and Jujitsu first, I find your attacks on a legitimate instructor such as Sensei Lumpkin to be tired and tedious. Give it a rest.

[Mst Whalen]

Have you ever thought when reading all of these Adds in the magazines for the ,Soke, Founder, guru ,Doju nim That these groups they were for real ? Or the magizine was now a Martial Joke book ?

I know I laugh like hell when I see them and Ask myself WHO in their right mind would want anything from them or who in the REAL world would Recognize them without laughing or whacking you in the Head for being the Village idiot.

I answered all of my own questions some people have no integrity, And to assume everyone will acknowledge these Wanna bees like they are your long lost cousin is just as embarrassing as having these ranks. Or the courage to show them while you are sober or at least having the Courtesy to Say "APRIL FOOL.... Or just kidding.

It is kind of funny when you step back and look at the big picture We as Americans believe almost anything that is what these Knuckle-heads would have you believe After all there are more founders of martial arts in the US than any asian country. This is why the Masters form the Orient journey here so we can enlighten them . I THINK NOT........ To them we are just a bad penny that they can't get rid of.

To those that hold rank in two arts KNOW how difficult it can be just trying to teach and do the right thing .

It must be tough when you hold several 8th Dans a couple of ninth Dans and a few 10th Dans . These guys are so Deadly they scare me i would be afraid to get on the mat with them in fear they may hurt me or call me a failure because I only hold rank in one Art.

This is why I have come to the conclusion I must have a learning Disability or some sort of personality flaw. Or i simply Do not play well. No one has ever asked me to be cross-promoted from them . I hold no PHD's no Minister-ships No Do ju nim papers No soke titles.

Kind of makes me feel my whole career has been a waste and the journey I have walked and have shared was a sham . I do not know what to say , For once I am speechless...... I am very sensitive and my feelings have been hurt .

Tonight I will call my Master in Korea and tell him I am his failure and he is also a Failure only being an 8th Dan after being in Hapkido for 47 years minus three years while serving in The korean Army . Running his own Dojang for over 35 years.

I am so hurt and ashamed it makes me want to put my head in the oven but I have an "electric stove"

Oh, Well 38 years in the Martial Arts and only one art I have yet to Master it I am a failure.... And I apologize and beg Forgiveness

HAPKI......

[Kumbajah]

The Karate for Christ people are being truthful. They're doing a legitimate, effective art, and have made no uber-dan claims. Jumping through hoops to please others should never have to be part of the requirements for "legitimacy." While I'm a student of Judo and Jujitsu first, I find your attacks on a legitimate instructor such as Sensei Lumpkin to be tired and tedious. Give it a rest.


This may be the case but these inbreeding cross rankings give the impression of some strange goings on. Just because people belong to the same org doesn't mean there was some sort of mind meld and now everyone has the same knowldge.

I do think that the Karte for Christ people should hold themselves to a higher standard (pun intended) or it gives the impression that the ministry is just another marketing tool. "Here's your black belt want some Jesus with that"

Personaly if I thought I needed a preacher as a teacher when it came to martial arts I would rather have humble low ranking dan that was committed to Christ than some one that came across as a Cadillac Driving Super Soke Holy Roller.

Brian Beach

[sidekick]

Gentlemen, If I may............ The gate to the minefield was opened and someone walked in. Suffice to say that the point of contention has been made.

My only comment on this situation is that whatever one calls themselves or whatever ranking is posted, I hope the student(s) that are trusting are being cared for. Whatever is being taught, must be legit, from a pragmatic position, regardless of the label. Those that take umbrage to the posturing of other's, have their rational for doing so and are intitled to voice their opinion(s). It has been accomplished, so I feel it's time to adjourn and return to the original context of this thread.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[Jeff C.]

I nominate Mike for Moderator status. Anybody want to second that?

By the way, Mike, when are we getting together for coffee again?

I do want to thank Mr. Petrotta for being forthcoming in his answers. That is refreshing. With that said, I think there is some merit to the criticism, but enough is enough. I would like to see the critical opinions put forth in a non-sarcastic manner. Anything less is juvenile.

Time to move on, but Mr. Petrotta, if you want to address the latest criticisms that you have not responded to, let myself or one of the other moderators know, so that we can check with Mr. Carver to decide on the most appropriate way for you to do so.

Moving on....

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[sidekick]

By the way, Mike, when are we getting together for coffee again?

Jeff, you have any plans for coming up to the base? If not then perhaps I can come down and drop in on you. Be good to see you again, we didn't have that much time the last time.

Mike Dunn

[Mst Whalen]

Mike is a good man and I consider him a friend, He has the guts to call it like he sees it and having been on the mat with him i know him and he knows me .

(Plus he said he would buy me a coffee if he had my vote) Just kidding .

If I am one of the Sarcastic people you mentioned I apologies if not I feel guilty anyways i am a catholic and i always feel guilt . After several failed relationships I have found the line 'I didn't Do it "" only goes so far.

My last Post was meant to be funny in my demented way I meant No offense to any one group there are to many to list and i would hate to leave anyone out.

I also Lied my stove is Gas not Electric :wink2:

If we cannot laugh at Life or at ourselves what can we laugh at ?

Life is too short to be taken seriously laugh when we can and love often keep our anger to a minimum .

Until the 24th of feb when they finally cut me i am just having fun well sort of, Today i wore my dobok all day since this is as close as they will let get to the mat....

Hapki......

[sungjado]

What type of surgery are you having?

I have had 5 in 5years (two total hip replacements, two lower lumbar diskectomies and one on the left shoulder.)

To all:
I take what you have said and do understand your way of thinking. In fact I used to think that way too, until I saw that one art does not encompass all. We all learn our own way and what we learn has a bearing on how we act and how we react. My reaction to what you have said about me and the others like me, is :laugh:

Master Whalen, I gave up my guilt trip after I switched from being a Catholic to being a born-again, bible-thumping Southern Baptist. Now I have eliminated the middle man and do my talking straight to God.
:bow:

[Mst Whalen]

The surgery is for a Mitral Valve prolapse with a regurgitation on a six tier scale i am at level Five. If I cannot go rigth to the Top I won't play

I am loosing about forty percent of what is pumping in is leaking out ,with about Five times the pressure Which is not good according to the people that know. And I am not one of them all I know is that when I do A spin kick I feel it . When I pump out 50 fast kicks I am gasping . No more 1000 kicks a nigth for some time.

When asked when did it affect me I told them when i move. they do not appreciate my humor oh well..... neither did my ex wife I showed her she got the house I got my Doboks . I think i won ??????

If I did not fix this they gave me less than a year That blew me away no pun intended .

Mike Tomlinson will fill everyone in after the Surgery he and my significant other are close ....

a very tired
HAPKI....... :wink2:

[Michael Tomlinson]

I'm always close brother... must be my early ninja training with Stephen Hayes.. I bet you guys didn't even know I was here.... :bow: ... Still looking for Steve Mortell by the way??
Michael Tomlinson

[Mst Whalen]

Mike I am terrible with phone numbers

Send me yours in private email so i can touch base,

[sungjado]

You are on my prayer list and will stay there until I hear that you are on your feet again.

:bow:

[Jeff C.]

Mike (Dunn), I don't have plans to come up to the base any time soon; come down this way though and I would be glad to take you out to lunch! Just give me at least a week's notice.

Hal, I'm sorry you are Catholic. I won't hold that against you. ;) By the way, I've known a few people have MV replacement/repair, and they all did VERY well. Good luck with your surgery and rehabilitation. Stay away from the skirts for awhile...

I'm glad to see you old guys finally getting along now. You folks are pretty tough on each other. It has been said you eat your young - is that true?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[American HKD]

Greetings

I'm sorry if I offended anyone FWIW it's not personal.

I sometimes can't control myself regarding my "Pet Peeve" of you all know what. :bow:

[MstNestor]

Have to agree with you and Kevin Stuart. This is sad and hurts us all.

[American HKD]

I nominate Mike for Moderator status. Anybody want to second that?

By the way, Mike, when are we getting together for coffee again?

I do want to thank Mr. Petrotta for being forthcoming in his answers. That is refreshing. With that said, I think there is some merit to the criticism, but enough is enough. I would like to see the critical opinions put forth in a non-sarcastic manner. Anything less is juvenile.

Time to move on, but Mr. Petrotta, if you want to address the latest criticisms that you have not responded to, let myself or one of the other moderators know, so that we can check with Mr. Carver to decide on the most appropriate way for you to do so.

Moving on....

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

I agree Mike would be a good moderator esspecially in the 3 ring Hapkido Circus.

[sidekick]

Moderator???????? Stuart, Jeff, I thought we were buds.....Why you want to do me like that? :laugh: :laugh: I'm more than content to lurk :up: and throw my 2 cents in every once-n-awhile.

Hal, appriciate the good words, but if you would have said more, you could have gotten milk and sugar and a donut with that coffee. :D

Mr. Petrotta, thank you for offering your good wishes and prayers for Hal. I'm sure he along with his friends and family appriciate the good intentions. :bow:

"Life is too short to be taken seriously laugh when we can and love often keep our anger to a minimum".
Hal, I tried your suggestion on the love often. The doctor said that the shots should get ride of it. :eek:

Jeff, first opportunity I get, I'll come on down for a visit. Thanks for the invite.

With respect to all
Mike Dunn

[Michael Tomlinson]

Jeff asked if we eat our young???

Depends on the garlic salt, pepper, and carbohydrate grams!!! :bandit:
Michael Tomlinson

[Rudy W. Timmerman]

I knew a long time ago that Dave was a fraud. He learned Kuk Sool Won and started promoting it as Hapkido. ...
:bow:

Greetings everyone:
According to GM Suh (told during a WKSA seminar that Master Weatherly and I both attended), Master Weatherly never earned rank from WKSA. In fact, GM Suh rediculed him in front of everyone that day, and he told him that he was a fraud. He (GM Suh) also said that GM Ji was going to kill him for claiming that he (Weatherly) named him as his teacher (which GM Ji denied). I believe Dave has worked with the Mah brothers who now work out of the Chicago area.

[Mst Whalen]

Mike (Dunn), I don't have plans to come up to the base any time soon; come down this way though and I would be glad to take you out to lunch! Just give me at least a week's notice.

Hal, I'm sorry you are Catholic. I won't hold that against you. ;) By the way, I've known a few people have MV replacement/repair, and they all did VERY well. Good luck with your surgery and rehabilitation. Stay away from the skirts for awhile...

I'm glad to see you old guys finally getting along now. You folks are pretty tough on each other. It has been said you eat your young - is that true?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

I really did not have a big choice in the whole catholic thing .It was decided by my parents whom are not what I would call GOOD catholics.

For the most part we all get along , Maybe over protective comes to mind.I have been around long enough to see almost every art have their problems And Good knows we have had our shares.

As far as the skirt chasing goes My girl friend is 31 and very good looking .It leaves me NO reason to chase . And she is also a martial artist.

As far as the rumor we eat our Young, Hmm.... (she is 31 )I will not go any further on this forum . :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am sure i will pull through operation just fine. If not i will come back and let everyone know who is the Real founder of Hapkido after I have a sit down with the man.

HapKi.....

[sungjado]

Greetings everyone:
According to GM Suh (told during a WKSA seminar that Master Weatherly and I both attended), Master Weatherly never earned rank from WKSA. In fact, GM Suh rediculed him in front of everyone that day, and he told him that he was a fraud. He (GM Suh) also said that GM Ji was going to kill him for claiming that he (Weatherly) named him as his teacher (which GM Ji denied). I believe Dave has worked with the Mah brothers who now work out of the Chicago area.
Thanks for the input Rudy. If anyone knows, you should. I really don't know what Dave learned originally, but he called it Hapkido, and his uniform was closer to KSW. I know that James Allison studied with him too.
:bow:

[Rudy W. Timmerman]

Hello George:
I have had a few more encounters with Master Weatherly, but somehow I feel it is not appropriate to mention them here lol. Maybe someday we can all compare notes over a cup of Starbucks (to keep Hal happy) :)

[Mst Whalen]

Count me in even if it is DECALF


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Rudy W. Timmerman]

Hal, when you are back on your feet again, we should make a serious effort to get a group of us together to do something:) Problem for me is that you folks are all so far away, and it takes me a long time to drive anywhere. Example, I go to Jackson, and it takes me a couple of days to get there. So, one weekend of seminar in Jackson turns into one week of being away from my school. Perhaps we can find a place where most of us can get to in a reasonable time.