LE Martial Art Question.

[Ice_storm]

Hello Everyone. This is my first post here so please bare with me. What styles are best for Law Enforcement? I've been doing American Karate for about six months now. However I'm thinking about changing to just Kick boxing, and Jujutsu.

Thanks for your opinions.

-Jake West

[Fletch1]

Few, if any martial arts comprehensively address the needs of Law Enforcement and Corrections. Anyone that tells you that their "art" is perfect for LEOs is usually trying to sell you something (IMO).

The benefit to martial arts is that they can generally teach you how to deal with contact, pain and fear associated with violence. For specific Law Enforcement/ Use of Force related issues however, there is no substitute for seeking out qualified trainers who have experience or at least have qualifiable LEO research to back up what they teach. This is above and beyond having an occasional cop coming in for lessons.

[RA Miller]

Jake-
A big question.
The first thing that you need to realize it that martial arts are designed to do what they do. They have a goal (or idea of a win) that is normally set. A KO is a win in boxing; ippon in judo; a tap in submission....

Because of the nature of the job, sometimes the win is getting handcuffs on. Sometimes it's talking the threat down. Sometimes it's doing so much damage that the damage to you stops and sometimes its creating just enough space to get to your radio, weapon or to get enough air to scream.

No MA covers all of those goals, though many try to stretch to reach them.

Then there is the environment: slick rainy concrete or blood and OC covered separation cells or rat-nest filthy and hypodermic filled shooting galleries. Maybe even a sunny day on soft sand at the beach.

The tools- knowing how and when to access the right force option at the right time; how to move in armor and gear (I look like an idiot getting out of the car with the seat belt hanging up on my weapon, radio or mike); when and how to call for help and how to work and fight with other people without time to plan.

It's complicated.
American football or rugby or judo are excellent for getting you used to contact and impact.
Small Circle JJ is wonderful for cuffing and level four situations.
Far too many striking arts rely on gloves- and I have to send officers to the hospital for broken hands.

If you are looking for a MA, pick one first because you enjoy it. Then lean on Fletch's advice about job specific skills.

Rory

[Ice_storm]

I understand what both of you are saying. I really don't believe there is anything that can train you for what you could and will run in too.

I just ask because I know each style offers different things. I only seen hand full of arts and have a general idea of it focuses on. Thanks for your advice

Jake West.

[Fletch1]

There are a handful of really good defensive and control tactics out there that are designed specifically for police. They are based on sound athletic training principles, tactical mindset and the Law Enforcement mission. I am a little biased but my favorite is the ISR listed in my signature.

The SPEAR program is another outstanding system that adds behavioral research to the mix and makes whatever you are already doing, more comprehensive and effective.

These are not MA programs however. They are a different animal.

[TonyU]

Hi Jake,
Nice to see you on the forum. (We met the other night in the chat room).
Listen to Rory and Fletch, they are giving you some good sound advice and opinion.
Let me add, right now concentrate on your studies and continue to train.
Like it has been mentioned before there is no one art or style that's going to cover or address the concerns of LEO.
But what you can do is train and get yourself a core then build upon that core.
Ironically I'm looking into the 2 programs that Fletch mentioned. Even though I've been training for a long time I'm still looking to build on my core.

[KIT]

Jake-

The tools- knowing how and when to access the right force option at the right time; how to move in armor and gear (I look like an idiot getting out of the car with the seat belt hanging up on my weapon, radio or mike);

Rory

I just want to know how to keep the seat belt from sliding under the pen clip and sliding the pen out of my pocket. So that when I go to take my pen out to write some info down, I don't have to go back to my car to recover my pen hanging off the seat belt...

That has happened to me at least a half dozen times.

I would add to Rory's comment, though, that even when you aren't using your weapons, you have to train with weapons in mind. Where you carry them, how they are deployed, retained, etc. "Martial arts" do not adequately address this for the modern context, or don't even address it at all.

[KIT]

Tony also makes a good point. Those in LE that are constantly improving are those that are always looking for training that can be applicable.

If you stick with one "system" or "doctrine" as the be-all and end-all, you are limiting your options and total skill development. You have to look at both ancient knowledge and modern methods, and training methodologies, in order to address the vast array of real world confrontational dynamics that LEOs face.

If you are overly committed to a particular theory, or tactic, or even LACK of tactics by being overly concerned with "principles" to the point that you don't practice technical mechanics, you are limiting your performance potential. At the same time you have to do this critically. Some stuff won't work, or will only work in X type situations for which they may be suited, but not for others for which they may not be suited at all.

[Ice_storm]

As far as Weapons are concern I shoot IPSC, IDPA, and play tactical paintball(Type of game develop by a trooper who lives down the street from me to help train SWAT). Hey Tony ya I remember ya. I also agree with your 100%. I'm always trying to find ways to improve. However I do not understand when you said "you are limiting your performance potential" Kit. I just wonder about other styles is all. No one style is perfect. Like I said in my before post I was wondering about what other styles may have to offer. IPSC and Tac paint won't perpare you for every thing either. However aren't you most likey to get in a ditch fight then a shootout? Or when someone trys to resist arrest and wants to take you around a bit.

I know there is so much more then MA or whatever in LE. What I am trying to do is put tools in my tool belt. You can't hammer a nail with a tape measure right? You need different tools for different problems. No style or training or even acadmey is going to teach you everything.I am not looking at MA to have all these answer. Just as a tool.

- Jake West

[KIT]

Jake-

I should have been more clear.

By working with weapons, I mean hand to hand contact work with weapons in the mix. For instance, working with low level use of force/arrest and control but while wearing weapons and developing habits of protecting them so that the situation does not turn into a weapon takeaway. Weapon retention, standing and on the ground, fighting over the gun on the sling, in the holster, in the hand - practicing with simunition marking rounds so that you can actually inject projectiles into the mix - or transitioning from a guns up challenge situation to a no-shoot, hand to hand encounter in which your gun is out but you must use lower levels of force. And doing all of these in a resistive, force on force manner that simulates the dynamics of various types of encounters.

You won't find that in martial arts schools, or even in some LE related DT systems that don't practice with realistic dynamics or with weapons involved. The typical "oh, its DT class, I won't need my gun belt..." attitude.

Within the LE training community there is still a divide between firearms instructors and DT instructors. This is counter-productive to overall LE training because guns are ALWAYS involved in our hand-to-hand encounters, and firearms encounters typically develop during hand to hand confrontations, or at the very least at "DT range." They are simply different facets of the same encounters.

We agree with each other re: doing one system. You are better off exploring various systems and strategies in order to address the range of elements you might encounter. NOT doing so is what will limit your potential.

[Cliff Hargrave]

.......
Within the LE training community there is still a divide between firearms instructors and DT instructors. This is counter-productive to overall LE training because guns are ALWAYS involved in our hand-to-hand encounters, and firearms encounters typically develop during hand to hand confrontations, or at the very least at "DT range." They are simply different facets of the same encounters.


I agree, check out this thread of mine from a few years ago:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3851

[Fletch1]

Within the LE training community there is still a divide between firearms instructors and DT instructors. This is counter-productive to overall LE training because guns are ALWAYS involved in our hand-to-hand encounters, and firearms encounters typically develop during hand to hand confrontations, or at the very least at "DT range." They are simply different facets of the same encounters.



Kit,

You are stealing my best material. :D

[KIT]

Kit,

You are stealing my best material. :D

:bow:

There is a core group of training-oriented folks out there bridging the gap. Some have done it for a long time, but it is not yet the standard in LE training. I see it going that way, though. I just try to push it along.

First thing we have to do is get the shooters on the mats, the DT guys on the range and in the shoot house, and get ALL LE instructors OUT of the "agency" training mentality and have them attending DT, martial arts, shooting schools and, oh yeah, how about the gym, for professional development on a regular basis.

I am flabbergasted to still see people get "qualified" and "certified" to teach DT or firearms based on a 40 hour (or less) class and one day a month (if that) on the range/mats.

These same folks end up running local and state DT and firearms programs and perpetuating the very problems we are talking about. Some of them even invent their own systems based on this stuff, get them accepted as POST or training commision or whatever doctrine, and succeed in pretty much screwing another generation of academy recruits who will again be told, once they graduate and get back to their agency: "Forget what they showed you at the academy, here's what you REALLY need to know."

[TonyU]

We are all in agreement, but ironically we are a minority in the grand scheme of things.
I am also a DT, firearms guy that tries to incorporate all aspects of DT, from awareness, to weapons to unarmed defense and the explanations of how to write a report (even though report writing is taught by someone else).

But I have question for all. How do you fight the system?
Here it seem to be an uphill battle to get scheduling for these recruits. It appears everytime they make a schedule we're (DT) are second class citizens, from scheduling DT through holidays when many of us take off or cutting the hours of the program beacuse they want to incorporate some new PC program.
I understand it is just a rhetorical question and some venting, because everytime I'm scheduled to teach I have to battle with the administration and I didn't even cover in-service. I just go to keep fighting.

[Fletch1]

I can see that you guys are in the same boat as I am. Adminsitrators see training (especially DT) as a necessary evil that drags officers away from their real jobs. They think that training forces officers to jump thru meaningless hoops to satisfy some office in the state capitol that doesn't do anything but count beans all day.

The trick is to get them involved and fired up enough that they see training as a solution and an asset rather than a problem and a hinderance.

[Ice_storm]

Fletch1-

I took alook at your DT websites listed in your sig. Pretty cool stuff. However where I live I am very limited in MA or any DT schools. I live in a very rural part of the state. The closest DT school is 2 hours away in Oklahoma City. There 2 I know of Kali, and Krav Maga.

Jake West