New Info Hapkido History

[American HKD]

Greetings

This was on another forum I saw today.

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:39:56 -0800 (PST)
From: tkd net mailing list admin <tkdnet2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: tkd-net: Fw: Hapkido History Revealed by James Garrison

The following appears in the March 2005 issue of Taekwondo Times
Magazine:

*****

Hapkido History Revealed

Since "The Background of Hapkido" by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung
(September 2004 edition) was circulated, I have been inundated with
e-mail. It is clear that many students and instructors are confused
about Hapkido's history.

Having met Grandmaster Myung in the early 1970's in Korea, I found
him to be a very gracious individual. During our first meeting, he
presented me with an autographed copy of his then newly published
Hapkido text written in Korean. At that time, his book was used as a
test for many of the Hapkido programs in Seoul. In his book, he
outlines the history of Hapkido, which is significantly different
from that which is presented in the TKDT article.

For over thirty years, I have researched martial arts systems. The
majority of my research has been studying the origins of Hapkido. I
have been able to interview many of Yong Sool Choi's (the founder of
Hapkido) original students. I have also been granted access to
original documents that pertain to Hapkido during the years prior to
its final name designation. The accuess includes written documents by
the founder himself.

In addition to my research in Korea, I trained and received black
belt rank at the headquarters for Aikido and the Kodokan (Judo
Headquarters) as well as SJJK (Jujitsu system). It is well known that
the Japanese are precise in their record keeping. They keep records
on every aspect of training.

It is unclear why the Grandmaster would choose to ignore and discount
the Hapkido connection with the Takada family or with Aikido and its
founder Ueshiba Morihei. It is common knowledge, and well documented,
that when Yong Sool Choi decided on the name "Hapkido" for his art,
and present this art, he invited the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba
Morihei, to attend his demonstration in Korea. During this
demonstration, Choi publicly thanked Morihei for being his friend.

Authentic reporting of history is imperative. This is especially true
for martial arts sytem in order for student to understand the
philosopy and psychology of the system, and also to authentically
learn the technical aspects of the system.

Regardless of what cultural insecurities one might possess, the true
origins of martial arts systems must be reported accurately and
without bias. The preservation of any system depends on accurate
reporting. This is especially true since some charlatans are using
the name Hapkido as a "catch-all" term for something they have made
up. Hapkido is a truly complete martial art and its quality can only
be preserved by understanding its origins.

James R. Garrison, Ninth Dan
Vice President World Oriental Martial Arts Federation
Portland, OR

[sidekick]

This site may be of interest to some, especially the first paragraph.

http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/james_garrison.html



Mike Dunn

[iron_ox]

Authentic reporting of history is imperative.

James R. Garrison, Ninth Dan
Vice President World Oriental Martial Arts Federation
Portland, OR

Can anyone verify this rank? 9th dan? Really? And from Sang Cook Kim? Who? Any details would be great...

[American HKD]

This site may be of interest to some, especially the first paragraph.

http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/james_garrison.html



Mike Dunn


Very different veiwpoint from the rest of the Hapkido world, what do I know.

From His Site

Master Garrison holds a 9th Degree Black Belt in Jul Sool Kwon Hapkido, 8th Degree Black Belt in SSJK Jujitsu, 7th Degree Black Belt in Chung Do Kwan TaeKwonDo, 7th Degree Black Belt in Kodokan Judo, and 6th Degree Black Belt in Aikido. He has written extensively and has contributed to every martial arts magazine as well as to various martial arts books. One example is Martial Arts Teachers on Teaching by Carol Wiley. He also has a series of instructional tapes on Hapkido and a Knife Certification course.

[howard]

1. (From the above link - interview of james garrison by dick morgan) "Dick Morgan: You were recently promoted to 9th degree (October, 1997) by Grandmaster Kim, Sang Cook, the man who is generally considered by those in a position to know as the number-one man in Hapkido in the world today..."

generally considered the number one man in hapkido? by whom?


2. "It is unclear why the Grandmaster would choose to ignore and discount
the Hapkido connection with the Takada family or with Aikido and its
founder Ueshiba Morihei. It is common knowledge, and well documented,
that when Yong Sool Choi decided on the name "Hapkido" for his art,
and present this art, he invited the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba
Morihei, to attend his demonstration in Korea. During this
demonstration, Choi publicly thanked Morihei for being his friend."

if this is "common knowledge and well documented", can anybody cite any verifiable documentation of such a demonstration taking place, and of ueshiba attending it?

[kodanjaclay]

Guys,

Remember the prohibition against demeaning someone else or their credentials.

Thanks.

[rupertmja]

It is unclear why the Grandmaster would choose to ignore and discount
the Hapkido connection with the Takada family or with Aikido and its
founder Ueshiba Morihei. It is common knowledge, and well documented,
that when Yong Sool Choi decided on the name "Hapkido" for his art,
and present this art, he invited the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba
Morihei, to attend his demonstration in Korea. During this
demonstration, Choi publicly thanked Morihei for being his friend.

Authentic reporting of history is imperative. This is especially true
for martial arts sytem in order for student to understand the
philosopy and psychology of the system, and also to authentically
learn the technical aspects of the system.


I would say it is very clear - either, he does not know, or it is an intentional distortion of history. But beyond that, what documentation exists that Ueshiba Morihei visited korea and met with Choi Yong-sul?

[klaasb]

Master Garrison holds a 9th Degree Black Belt in Jul Sool Kwon Hapkido, 8th Degree Black Belt in SSJK Jujitsu, 7th Degree Black Belt in Chung Do Kwan TaeKwonDo, 7th Degree Black Belt in Kodokan Judo, and 6th Degree Black Belt in Aikido. He has written extensively and has contributed to every martial arts magazine as well as to various martial arts books. One example is Martial Arts Teachers on Teaching by Carol Wiley. He also has a series of instructional tapes on Hapkido and a Knife Certification course.

All alarm-bells are ringing at my house :)

[rupertmja]

Klass,

If Ueshiba did visit Korea, Myung Jae-nam would have known about it, right?

[klaasb]

Klass,

If Ueshiba did visit Korea, Myung Jae-nam would have known about it, right?

Depending on when the event took place, yes.

[moksha]

Rupert,

I have also heard of Ueshiba visiting Korea. Although I have not seen any proof as far as pictures etc. I do in my own opinion believe that he did. When GM Chang opened our HQ he asked for Ueshiba to attend the ceremony. Ueshiba declined, and sent in his place Seijuro Masuda sensei as a representative of the Aikikai Hombu. This was in 1968. However, I don't think GM Chang would have asked for Ueshiba to attend unless he knew that he had been to Korea before. So, I believe that Ueshiba did visit Choi. Also if you take in consideration the letter Choi sent to Ueshiba's son regarding the passing of his father, I think that might also explain a possible deeper relationship between the two.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I was visited by the ghost of bruce lee last night and he had Choi, ed parker, takeda, elvis, and tupac with him in his posse,,, so will someone promote me to ninth dan in any-kwan-will-do hapkido....NOW...
Michael Tomlinson :laugh:

P.S....Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix were there too playing my theme music in the background...

[Michael Tomlinson]

just kidding guys now will someone give me a hug...
Michael Tomlinson

aka, the most important person in Hapkido :D

[klaasb]

Print your own 9th dan at http://www.hapkido.nl/?mode=dancert :)

Morihei Ueshiba coming to Korea just seems inprobable.
Most Koreans didn't want to have anything to do with Japanese anyway in the sixties.
There are no pictures.
If Ueshiba would have visited Korea then by now at least a few masters in Korea would mention this event, and tell you they attended it and that Ueshiba taught them aikido.
For as far as I know, nobody does....
Also I think there would be mention of it, in the aikido archives. So somebody in Japan, please look up the dates.....

[mateo]

Reading the post carefully it does not expressedly say that Ueshiba attended, merely that he was invited and thanked publicly for his friendship by Choi at the demonstration.

This could also just as easily be untrue but it is something different.

[mateo]

This is something that I've posted elsewhere but I thought it might be germane here:

Stanley Pranin, then of Aiki News and now editor of the Aikidojournal.com, at the behest of people like myself who had asked similar questions, asked Ueshiba Kisshomaru about Choi Yong Sool and hapkido:

“ AikiNews: It is true that a Korean named “Choi” who founded ‘hapkido” studied Aikido or Daito-ryu?

Doshu:I don’t know what art it was but I understand that there was a young Korean of about 17 or 18 who participated in a seminar of Sokaku Takeda-sensei held in Ashikawa City in Hokkaido. It seems that he studied the art together with my father and would refer to him as his “senior”.

AikiNews: If that’s the case the art must have been Daito-ryu.

Doshu: I’ve heard that this man who studied daito-ryu had some contact with my father after that. Then he returned to Korea and began teaching Daito-ryu on a modest scale. The art gradually became popular and many Koreans trained with him. Since aikido became popular in Japan he called his art ‘Hapkido’ (Written with the same Chinese characters as Aikido). Then the art split into many schools before anyone realized it. This is what my father told me. I once received a letter from this teacher after my father’s death.”
- Aiki News Magazine No. 77

This is one of the few things that I have found affirming the existance of Choi in Japan by a person who was actually in a position to know.

You would think that there would also have been some "institutional memory" expressed here if his father had actually once attended a demonstration in Korea.

[rupertmja]

Print your own 9th dan at http://www.hapkido.nl/?mode=dancert :)


Nice one - just tested it out. I am now 10th Dan so respect me or else :D

[Eliz]

Hey, I didn't spill my food - I am now a 6th dan. :laugh:

http://www.hapkido.nl/?mode=dancert

[well rounded fighter]

Can anyone verify this rank? 9th dan? Really? And from Sang Cook Kim? Who? Any details would be great...
I trained with Mr. Garrison. He is legit. He also was awarded the hall of fame master instructor award. His credentials are all verifiable.

[Hapkiyoosool]

Mike Merchant said:

When GM Chang opened our HQ he asked for Ueshiba to attend the ceremony. Ueshiba declined, and sent in his place Seijuro Masuda sensei as a representative of the Aikikai Hombu. This was in 1968.This is true and you may view the pics on our website. I do know that GM Chang travels to Japan from time to time to train with the Aikikai and Daito-Ryu. This why our style has such a more Daito-Ryu influence in these later days.

I know that I had to prove my rank when I first came back to the US in 2000.
I "magically showed up" as a 5 Dan and many people called me out because they had never heard of or trained with me or my instructor. I can understand that. If a guy is certifiable and there is a REAL paper trail or proof, he's legit.

I have heard of people who jump form one organization to another to get more rank and never train after 1 Dan. Then they become "overnight Grandmasters" and begin their own organization. If it makes you happy, this is America. Golden land of opportunity. Most of us are on the level.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Hey man I got to get me one of those 9th or 10th dans!!! Does it come with Fries, a burger, and a new toy????? We could call it the Happy Dan....just add money...
Michael Tomlinson :t2:

[klaasb]

don't know if you will be that happy after you get your @55 kicked by a true 9th kub :)

[Michael Tomlinson]

They can kick my butt, just don't spill my drink and eat my fries.... :t2:
Michael Tomlinson

[aplonis]

What is history except a fable, agreed upon. -- Napoleon

[Getonthematt]

I have trained with Master Garrison, Master Dick Morgan and Sang Kim Cook they are no joke, no jumping ranks try one of his seminars or contact him reguarding your questions, but dont disgrace us by saying childish things.
You MAY have to explain your actions to a WOMAF or PRMAA student some day and then will be unable to hide behind the anonimity of the web.
If you would like more info....
Greg Hindley

[HapkidoTeacher]

I trained with Master Garrison for 15 years. His organization is small but that's because most people can't tow the line that he requires.

His Hapkido rank is legitimate. His Chung Do Kwan AND Master Certifications through Korea are legit, I have seen them personally. I also know that his Judo rank is legit and he trained in Japan for many years.

His Aikido instructors were primarily Fumio Toyoda and Prof. Walter Todd. Aikido and Judo legends who are now deceased. I had the pleasure to train with both of them at Seminars at Mr. Garrison's school for several years before they passed.

I understand the "fear" in looking at multiple ranks. Some arts are easy to bridge the gaps, some degrees are more honorary and given for a lifetime of study and dedication to. He definitely fits the bill.

Should be cautious about talking about people you do not know too much about.

And, to help you even more. He pretty much booted Mr. Pelligrini out of WOMAF when he wanted rank and Mr. Garrison would not promote him. And yes, he did manage to jump 2-3 ranks under Mr. Myung's organization shortly thereafter. Not a shot at Master Myung, probably hard to have such quality control over a large organization.

Just my .02c

Jeff Hindley
WHA Representative
Oregon State Rep.

[Getonthematt]

Mr. Hindley,

How long did he train with WOMAF?
Do you know his rank at the time and what he was looking for?
I heard a story about Mr. Garrison and Mr. Pelligrini a long time ago?
Just sad people say such things without investigating or being respectful.
Greg

[DragonMind]

Gentlemen, the only thing that has been called into question is the lack of verifiable documentation of the claims being made. Saying you've seen some piece of paper proves only that you claim to have seen a piece of paper. If you expect us to take you for an expert witness, you're going to have to provide your credentials as well.

I find it ironic that someone would comment on investigation and respect while gossiping about someone else second hand.

[HapkidoTeacher]

I'm not gossiping about anybody secondhand Mr. McConnell. I was there during the Flordia seminar with JP many, many years ago. He couldn't hack it in the organization, period and he left.

The other comments were regarding Jim Garrison's apparently bloated rank. Simply put, they are not bloated at all. Some of the latter ranks are very likely honorable but he has a lifetime of study in said arts nonetheless.

Personally, I find it refreshing that two GM's really don't find a need for bloated self-importance to the point that they really don't care about providing documentation. If people want documentation, they can always join WOMAF I guess. I've seen it.

The particular TKD Times piece that was posted in the letters to the editor section (quoted early in this thread) was posted by the TKD Times hierarchy because they know who he is and the lineage behind him.

Not sure what the problem with that is.


And I hope everyboyd has a very Merry Christmas.

Jeff

[Hapkiyoosool]

On the lighter side of the news.

We are having our Winter Semniar in February this year as usual. The First weekend of February to be exact.

If anyone is interested. let us know.

Where you ask? At our USHQ of course! You can get more info from the website.

This is the link for more information so just click here!!!!! (http://www.hapkiyoosool.com)

[DragonMind]

...Personally, I find it refreshing that two GM's really don't find a need for bloated self-importance to the point that they really don't care about providing documentation. If people want documentation, they can always join WOMAF...

Jeff
See, that's a problem. Anyone can claim anything. That sort of argument is usually the first line of defense for frauds who CAN'T prove what they say. We require providence on things to weed out the charlatans. That attitude plays right into their game. Proving who and what you are is not "bloated self-importance" unless you are bragging about it or expect people to kowtow to you because of it. I have a Florida driver's license. That isn't self-importance, simply documentation that I have been judged sufficiently qualified to operate a motor vehicle in Florida. I have several teaching certificates. Again, nothing to do with self-importance, merely documentation that I do, in fact, possess a skill I claim to have. Nobody is going to be awed by the fact that I'm licensed to drive or to teach, but when a LEO wants to know what I'm doing behind the wheel, I better prove I have the right to do so. When a parent wants assurance that I can teach their child, they have a right to demand I prove it.

[Getonthematt]

Barry wrote:

See, that's a problem. Anyone can claim anything. That sort of argument is usually the first line of defense for frauds who CAN'T prove what they say. We require providence on things to weed out the charlatans. That attitude plays right into their game. Proving who and what you are is not "bloated self-importance" unless you are bragging about it or expect people to kowtow to you because of it. I have a Florida driver's license. That isn't self-importance, simply documentation that I have been judged sufficiently qualified to operate a motor vehicle in Florida. I have several teaching certificates. Again, nothing to do with self-importance, merely documentation that I do, in fact, possess a skill I claim to have. Nobody is going to be awed by the fact that I'm licensed to drive or to teach, but when a LEO wants to know what I'm doing behind the wheel, I better prove I have the right to do so. When a parent wants assurance that I can teach their child, they have a right to demand I prove it.
__________________
Barry McConnell


Barry,
I guess its only a problem for you, or the others who must put 10 different arts on their bio and have nothing to do but make some of those idiotic remarks and comments. Stick there thoughts in. Create some controversy or whatever reason.

Really go back and read the thread.

It was insulting to GM Garrison and Mr. Kim.

Whose "WE" and is it your job to weed out the charlatans?

I agree we all keep an eye on the new teachers around and they usually fade from sight given time. Seen many come and go.

GM Garrison has been at the same location for a lifetime.
Giving everything to the MA
No chain schools
no buying rank
NO game playing
No BS.
He is as hardcore as they come.
I am very proud of my rank from WOMAF and it was earned. Not bought like others have done in other organizations..

I'm sure if Mr. Garrison had a free moment from teaching and counseling and giving of himself he would be more than happy to discuss his charlatanic paper with you in a respectful and honest manner.

He is easy enough ti find if you want to!

Would you then come back after you demanded satisfaction and write an apology on BUDO or say something to the nay sayers on this thread.

I bet not.

For people to say such crazy things about Mr. Garrison shows their jealousy and that they are intimidated and ignorant.

I believe if you read the statements you will see. I know that I have NEVER heard of you and don't go around saying stupid comments about your lack of skill, your rush to judgment or you must provide documentation to ME because I am weeding out the charlatans. lol

That is perhaps one of the dumbest egotistical things I have heard for a while.

I don't believe there are any laws regarding providing documents when you sign at a school.

Drivers license?????
How does that relate. PLEASE.

Ill be in Orlando in a few months for a Hapkido tournament maybe we can get together and have lunch and discuss this further?

Greg Hindley Douglasville, GA USA
(kicking and punching and fighting anyone anytime anywhere for 25 plus years.)
I dont have any documentation but Ill get on the mat with anyone.

Tae Kwon Do
Hapkido
KIckboxing
Judo
Jujitsu
Mixed Martial Arts

I HAD always respected the thoughts and writings of Michael Tomlinson, Klaas Barends, Stuart Rosenberg and Rupert Atkinson.

Shame on you all.

What goes around comes around.
You cannont take your words away from the minds of others and others will remember.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I didn't comment on Garrison I commented on the automatic dan rank generator that everyone was talking about..never mentioned you or Garrison and I don't know either of you...nor you me..were you in attendance a million years ago in Orange City for the JP debacle? You mentioned being in Florida and seeing him not hack it,,maybe we have met before? If so I don't remember. For some reason you have taken this thread as an insult somehow? I don't see after rereading the threads why you got so upset.. What Barry is saying has some merit and what you say does also..I really didn't feel Barry was being disrespectful and I understood the driver liscense analogy...dude you mentioned you didn't need to list 25 arts as a snip to Barry but then you listed six and then jumped to the conclusion of wanting to meet someone and fighting anyone anytime for 25 years??? Shame on you for that one...I think if you calm down and give those in question some good info they can respect your side of the coin...heck I am promoted by Ji Han Jae...you don't think he gets any flack on the internet for some of his promotions do you... bottom line is that I know who I am and who I train with so I have to laugh at some of the nay sayers with him who couldn't even train with him two days in a row without quitting and running home to get on their computer and talk about him or the guys who have been in Hapkido for twenty some odd years and talk bad about him but have NEVER been on the mat with him or even met him,,, but that is THEIR problem and has nothing to do with the many many lessons he has taught me..Hapkido and otherwise.. one time after training during lunch he told me I was like a big kid and I liked to laugh and have fun...then he said that was good Hapkido....IF you lose your center so quickly when being questioned what lessons can be learned from that???
Michael Tomlinson :bow:

[American HKD]

Greetings

I didn't comment either, I just posted the article because I read it and never heard of him!

[Jeff C.]

Alright children, let's not let this get out of hand.

Discussion and speculation concerning an ambiguous history of martial arts is perfectly acceptable, if it remains respectful. Asking for verification of rank is acceptable, if done respectfully.

Making sarcastic remarks about high ranks without proof, one way or the other, of legitimacy is unacceptable. Overreacting to a request for more proof of a claim is unacceptable.

Making veiled threats is unacceptable, immature and potentially unhealthy.

Jeff Cook

[SinMooCT]

Looks like some great Holiday Spirit from Greg. Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah. Mike T is a great martial artist that tries to keep things in perspective. He has a good heart but don't be so quick to throw out challenges. Everyone's background will come into question from time to time especially if you're doing something right. It's the true martial artist who is comfortable with who they are and their spirit that ignors insignificant comments. Train, focus, and remember what is really important.

[howard]

...Making veiled threats is unacceptable, immature and potentially unhealthy.
...Not to mention potentially illegal...

Assault: the threat or use of force on another that reasonably makes that person fear bodily harm

[DragonMind]

Barry,
I guess its only a problem for you, or the others who must put 10 different arts on their bio and have nothing to do but make some of those idiotic remarks and comments. Stick there thoughts in. Create some controversy or whatever reason.
Fascinating. I list four arts; two that I have recently retired from and two (actually aspects of the same art) that I actively practice. I don't even list arts I have dan rank in but haven't practiced for years. You deride me for my listing but immediately proceed to try and impress someone with your list. As for idiotic remarks, I've insulted no one nor made unsubstantiated claims. Please have the courtesy to do the same.


Really go back and read the thread.

It was insulting to GM Garrison and Mr. Kim.
Asking questions is hardly insulting; particularly when claims are being made that seem far afield from already established events and documented lineages. The virulent attack reaction you've shown is a common tactic of the frauds and charlatans I mentioned earlier. In fact, my earlier post was pointing out the fact that such behavior only makes people more suspicious. An honest person has nothing to fear from legitimate questions, respectfully submitted. Frauds live in constant fear of exposure.


Whose "WE" and is it your job to weed out the charlatans?

I agree we all keep an eye on the new teachers around and they usually fade from sight given time. Seen many come and go.
We is the responsible teachers and leaders of the MA community. If we fail to police our own ranks, we may wake up to find someone else doing it for us.

Strange, you ask who'se job it is to weed out charlatans in the first sentence and then take on the job yourself in the very next breath. I'm beginning to see a pattern of you trying to take both sides of an issue to avoid dealing with it directly.


GM Garrison has been at the same location for a lifetime.
Giving everything to the MA
No chain schools
no buying rank
NO game playing
No BS.
I don't knoiw him or anyone who does know him. When someone starts claiming extremely high rank from somewhere off the radar, and making claims about events that no one else seems to know about, they have to epect to be asked to back up those claims. Responses like yours that effectively say 'you should believe me just because I say so' is not going to cut it. You don't have to like it, but only a fool would not expect it.


I am very proud of my rank from WOMAF and it was earned. Not bought like others have done in other organizations..
That is irrelevant. The fact that some people in some organizations may have bought unearned rank doesn't prove anything. People with legitimate ranks from respected organizations are generally happy to provide documentation when asked. Now, if you are just trying to be a smart-*** and backhandedly insult anyone on this forum, I will warn you that such behavior will not be tolerated.


I'm sure if Mr. Garrison had a free moment from teaching and counseling and giving of himself he would be more than happy to discuss his charlatanic paper with you in a respectful and honest manner.
If someone had actually called him a charlatan, I would be happy to let him know so that he could respond without being attacked from the shadows. We had a similar situation not long ago with people attacking Julian Lim and that is how it was handled then. Once again, I was pointing out that your behavior follows the pattern of them and was warning you that your actions did not help make your case. Your subsequent response calls your case even further into question.


Would you then come back after you demanded satisfaction and write an apology on BUDO or say something to the nay sayers on this thread.

I bet not.
I have made pubic apology when I've been wrong. There is certainly no need to in this case. I haven't demanded anything of anyone. I have defended the right of people to ask questions without being attacked for the asking. I make no apologies for that.


For people to say such crazy things about Mr. Garrison shows their jealousy and that they are intimidated and ignorant.
For people to ask questions about claims that run contrary to common knowledge and documented fact is not crazy or jealous, nor does it imply that they are ignorant or intimidated. To make such claims only displays a lack of maturity and character. Attacking them for asking questions only highlights the suspicion that you have something to hide.


I believe if you read the statements you will see. I know that I have NEVER heard of you and don't go around saying stupid comments about your lack of skill, your rush to judgment or you must provide documentation to ME because I am weeding out the charlatans. lol

That is perhaps one of the dumbest egotistical things I have heard for a while.
Had you asked, I would have been happy to do so. In fact, the last blow-hard that did ask got my credentials. If you'll do a search on BudoSeek you'll see them as well. For the record, I never said a word about anyone's skill or lack of skill, did not judge anything but your choice of tactic, and never asked anyone for documentation. My issue was with your insulting of people asking legitimate questions. McCarthy-style tactics won't fly here.


I don't believe there are any laws regarding providing documents when you sign at a school.
Yet. Several states have attempted to license MA teachers/schools. If we don't police our own ranks, we give the politicians ammunition.


Drivers license????? How does that relate. PLEASE. That's called an analogy. If I claim to be a driver, I have to provide documentation. If someone claims top rank in a MA style, they are going to be asked for documentation. Both are reasonable and legitimate situations.


Ill be in Orlando in a few months for a Hapkido tournament maybe we can get together and have lunch and discuss this further?

Greg Hindley Douglasville, GA USA
I live in Tallahassee, 250 miles each way is a bit far for lunch. I wasn't aware of any HKD tournaments coming up. Might be a good idea to start an announcement thread to let folks know.


I dont have any documentation but Ill get on the mat with anyone.

Tae Kwon Do
Hapkido
KIckboxing
Judo
Jujitsu
Mixed Martial Arts
There are a number of folks here that have open invitations to train. If you get near Tally, I'll be happy to train. These days I only do Arnis so bring some sticks and blades.


I HAD always respected the thoughts and writings of Michael Tomlinson, Klaas Barends, Stuart Rosenberg and Rupert Atkinson.

Shame on you all.
Totally uncalled for. Are you man enough to apologize to them?


What goes around comes around.
You cannont take your words away from the minds of others and others will remember.
Yes it does. In fact, we have a short edit window on this forum because people should stand behind their words. I do regularly. I suggest you start considering yours more carefully.

[TonyU]

...Not to mention potentially illegal...

Assault: the threat or use of force on another that reasonably makes that person fear bodily harm

*Temporary interruption*

Howard, in the state of NJ that is incorrect. A threat under your definition falls under "terroristic threat" contrary to N.J.S. 2C:13-3, a crime of the 3rd degree.

* Now back to your regular scheduled program*

[James O'Neill]

...So what's this about a Hapkido Tournament in Orlando?!?!

[howard]

*Temporary interruption*

Howard, in the state of NJ that is incorrect. A threat under your definition falls under "terroristic threat" contrary to N.J.S. 2C:13-3, a crime of the 3rd degree.

* Now back to your regular scheduled program*
Hi Tony, if you go a little farther up in the statutes...

"2C:12-1. Assault. a. Simple assault. A person is guilty of assault if he:

(1)Attempts to cause or purposely, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or

(2)Negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon; or

(3)Attempts by physical menace to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily injury."

What I posted here previously was not taken from the NJ statutes, but item (3) above looks similar in meaning to the more general post I made earlier.

I suppose lawyers can debate exactly which statute applies, state by state, when one person puts another in reasonable fear of harm by their conduct, but I think we'd agree that it can constitute a crime, depending on whether the conduct creates a reasonable fear of harm in the person at whom it's aimed. That's all I was trying to convey. :bow:

Regards, Howard

[TonyU]

No problem Howard,
Just tryin to clarify for people that are less knowledgable. You right, its how prosecutors and judges define ro apply the statutes.

I happen to work for them and let me tell you they don't necessarily think along the same plane. :D

Either way a threat should not be taken lightly and it's against the law.

Edit: BTW 3 is more a "physical threat", for example, someone waving a bat implying that they are going to hit you with it.
The statute I posted applies more for verbal or written threats.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Wow you all are "crazy" with the lawyer speak....cool stuff to know and learn about...keep it coming guys...I love to learn more stuff...my noodle hasn't even begun to fill up..as if some of you didn't know that already... :o

Mike M. thanks for the good words brother...Merry Christmas to you...next year I should be river dancing and hapkidoing enough to make it up....

I didn't know about any Hapkido tournament in Orlando...that would be cool to check out...someone post some info if possible if you don't mind....

Michael Tomlinson :bow:

[RA Miller]

Not to throw any fuel on the fire, but if SSJK is the Sosuisi-ryu Jujutsu kai, which I know Garrison has studied briefly, there is no such rank.

Rory

[howard]

Wow you all are "crazy" with the lawyer speak....cool stuff to know and learn about...keep it coming guys...I love to learn more stuff...my noodle hasn't even begun to fill up..as if some of you didn't know that already...
Hey Michael, Merry xmas (late) and Happy New Year.

Actually, the main reason I even brought this subject up is because a few years ago, when I learned that you could be charged with a crime just for verbally threatening to harm somebody, I didn't know the law worked like that. I figured, like I bet a lot of other people still figure, that you had to physically strike somebody to be charged with anything. So, I just posted that as kind of general info, so that nobody gets themselves in trouble for only talking. :)

Tony's post explains why we hear about knuckleheads getting arrested up here in NJ for making "terrorristic threats". I remember when I started hearing about situations involving that charge on the news, I thought it was strange that lots of dummies who were basically just threatening thug-types or barroom brawlers were being charged as "terrorists", but now I understand. (Actually, they weren't charged as terrorists, I was just misunderstanding the law.)

Moral of the story for me: when in doubt, keep your mouth shut. (LOL)

[pmooney_52]

info on tournament here

http://www.pro-hapkido.com/

[Eliz]

This tournament announcement was already moved once to the competition section of the forum. Please keep posts relavant to the discussion.

[pmooney_52]

umm... sorry. I thought it was relevant, 2 people asked above.


Again, sorry...



(head down, shoulders drooped, shuffling back to my corner... )

[Eliz]

umm... sorry. I thought it was relevant, 2 people asked above.


Again, sorry...



(head down, shoulders drooped, shuffling back to my corner... )

:laugh: Not to worry. You can come out of the corner! Your funny. :) Actually, I just checked the post that was moved earlier this week (same tourny), and there was no "post moved" notice left. Usually that alerts members that a subject has been moved to another part of the forum. You had no way of knowing.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Cool stuff Howard...reminds me of the old Zen saying I have posted all over my art room that I teach in High School:

Control your thoughts, they become your words,
Control your words, they become your actions,
Control your actions, they become your habits,
Control your habits, they create your character,
Control your character for it determines your destiny...


If you try to follow this easy plan you can nip most problems in the bud...yes???
Michael Tomlinson :bow:

[sidekick]

Hey Mike, that's kinda along the same lines as what my uncle Guido said...

Control your thoughts, so they don't ruin your pants, :p
Control your words, so you don't get punched in the mouth, :up:
Control your actions, so you don't become a parent, :eek:
Control your habits, they cost to much money, :cool:
Control your character, there's only one Mr H... :laugh:


Safe and Happy New year to all..... :bow:


Hope the knee is doing good.

[Michael Tomlinson]

LOL....one is almost two too many.... :laugh: Happy Holidays Mike....
Michael Tomlinson

[spud]

Guys & Gals Marry Christmas to one & all, be safe in the New Year.

As for the history of HKD, their never has been or will be 100% agreement & guess what that’s fine, the history is such a tangled web that it’s a waste of time even trying to work it out. At the end of the day you really are only relying on this person or that person’s interpretation of what was said or done first by this one or that one. Does it matter anymore to what we do on the matts No, we do what we do & we love it, yes it would be nice to have the entire history wrapped up in a neat package but its not so lets move onto making the future more positive than the past.