Koryu JJ is ineffective and gentle???

[chrismoon]

I have been reading through several of the threads in this forum over the last few nights and some things have caught my eye. I have seen koryu jujutsu
or jujutsu in general being described as peaceful, gentle, and non-violent way to end fights. It has been described as un-armed grappling lacking punches
and kicks. Some members have described koryu jujutsu as having techniques that have no bearing or place in modern day self defense. Just where exactly did all of this come from? I am not sure if my experience with koryu jujutsu has been drastically different then others but I do not see this in the particular school I study or several of the other koryu schools that I have witnessed. So I am pretty sure my experience is not a one-off situation.

I think back on my own training and I am wondering what is peaceful or gentle about slamming someone headfirst onto the ground and stomping on the back of their head or neck? More then just a few kata are designed to end that way. I can think of many more unhappy endings. There are techniques I have been taught/shown that if I were to use them in a self defensesituation on the street I would probably be facing felony charges unless I had a really good reason for breaking someone's neck.

Yesterday I had a nice discussion with an old friend, that does BJJ and some other modern creations, about this site and he was surprised to learn that jujutsu has punches and kicks, he learned the hard way when we went to his backyard. He was also surprised to learn that it can include small bladed weapons. Yes I know that technically we call it kogusoku koshi no mawari but it still involves jujustu like techniques. He was even surprised to learn that his blessed BJJ is not the only system to have a detailed and extensive set of groundfighting techniques or that some koryu jujutsu schools have sparring. he is not the only person that incorrectly thinks this.
As far as koryu jujutsu not being street effective, what idiot came up with that? I have extensive contacts with pals on the police force and they tell me they cannot use much of what is taught at my particular school because it would cross the line of brutality and would have the ACLU all over them. One of my training partners was recently in bootcamp and has virtually no experience beyond koryu had a ball with some self-proclaimed tough guys that had backgrounds in the more modern arts.

Does anyone know where all this comes from? Is it a from a generation of Aikido and George Kirby's Gentle Art books? Are people confusing different systems and creations withwhat really is koryu jujutsu? Before anyone gets their panties or spandex tights in a knot I am not claiming koryu jujutsu as an ultimate art, I just think that SOME people have no clue of just what it can do.

[Rasputin]

I can see the cadre massing to shout "Troll" as I type this.

But I love a good debate, so I will bite.

To sum it up simply, there are those in the world who believe that a martial art must be practiced against a resisting opponent at full speed in order to be "street effective". The traditional method of jujutsu instruction uses paired kata against a non-resisting partner in order to drill the techniques, and randori against a designated attacker at less than full speed without the attacker resisting what is done to them, all for safety's sake.

The translation of "ju" to mean "soft" has connotations to our western ears, as well, which color people's perceptions of the art.

Oh well, their loss. Between those who cannot handle the pain, those who are unable to learn how to fall, and the very few who think it is all either soft or unrealistic, only the very dedicated are left on our mat.

[TonyU]

I can see the cadre massing to shout "Troll" as I type this.

Yeap. Uh, huh.

[jwinch2]

I guess I'm stupid enough to jump in here also.

For anyone who thinks jujutsu is a gentle non-violent art, I invite them to take a good look at the bruises on my arms, legs, and feet. Also, they are more than welcome to spend some time with me while I ice my wrists, elbows, and ankles after every class. They are also invited to follow me around the next day and listen as I try to pick things up and my arm almost gives out because my joints hurt so much. It is also a good time to watch me try to workout. Let's just say that Advil has become a very good friend of mine...

Gentle my a@s...

[chrismoon]

I can see the cadre massing to shout "Troll" as I type this.

.

I have some pretty well known and highly respected teachers, I count Russ, Jay, and Steve Delaney as friends, and I have been on some serious threads on E-budo. I think any charges of trolling are groundless and I would hope my mates would go to bat for me on that one.

[Chris Wade]

I think some of it is probably just publicity. Since most of the hype is about MMA, BJJ, etc. there is almost an inference that the old stuff must not be effective if everyone is flocking to the new stuff.

There are certainly old style schools that do not teach effective techniques. But there are just as many that do teach the effectiveness of jujutsu.

Funny story: last fall, in one particular class, we were working on some groundfighting techniques and were working on a particular strangle. One student, green belt, said "Hmm, I think I could just power out of that". So, one of the instructors asks him to show how he would do that. The instructor applied the technique, the student struggled, and the student went to sleep. :D

I think the opinion you describe is often the result of a lack of information. I love having new students, even those with other training, come train at the dojo. I love asking them at the end of class "so is it what you expected?". The answer is almost always "no".

[Webmaster]

I have some pretty well known and highly respected teachers, I count Russ, Jay, and Steve Delaney as friends, and I have been on some serious threads on E-budo. I think any charges of trolling are groundless and I would hope my mates would go to bat for me on that one.
Christopher:

Dave is probably not familiar with your background or your previous postings over at E-Budo. I am, and I know you are not a troll. However, when one makes a post that is designed get an emotional reaction from folks (basically accusing the folks here as being idiots) it is reasonable that someone might make that assumption.

I am not sure where you got the impression that folks here think of Jujutsu (koryu or otherwise) as peaceful, gentle or all "sweetness and light", but I can assure you that I do not, and those that actually practice the art here on BudoSeek! do not either.

[jwinch2]

I think any charges of trolling are groundless and I would hope my mates would go to bat for me on that one.


Don't worry about it Chris. We have just had a Trolling epidemic on here recently and a few of them surrounded BJJ and the Aikido threads so some of the moderators are a little amped up about it right now.

Just about everyone on here that I have met especially the moderators are very fair and willing to listen to rational and intelligent discussion, even with someone who disagrees with them about their own arts. Discussions have gotten sprited from time to time and nobody seems to mind.

The problem is that a few have gone personal and it happened recently on the BJJ and Aikido threads. Not to mention another guy who just got banned who thought he knew everything about everything. You know the type right, the guy who insults you but thinks its OK because he was smiling while he said it :D .

I guess when someone new comes in and people on here see those arts, (BJJ and Aikido) come out right away they just think, uh oh, here we go again.

Anyway, i understand your point about JJ but I don't think you will find many on this particular site who suffer from the misunderstanding that you mentioned. The peope on here are too knowledgable to have that type of notion. Plus there are too many Jujustaka on this site to allow any of that type of nonsense to be spread without jumping in to correct them :wink2: .

Welcome, Chris. I sounds like you have alot of knowledge about JJ that you will be able to share. I'll personally be looking forward to seeing more of your posts! :bow:

Jason

[chrismoon]

Christopher:

Dave is probably not familiar with your background or your previous postings over at E-Budo. I am, and I know you are not a troll. However, when one makes a post that is designed get an emotional reaction from folks (basically accusing the folks here as being idiots) it is reasonable that someone might make that assumption.

I am not sure where you got the impression that folks here think of Jujutsu (koryu or otherwise) as peaceful, gentle or all "sweetness and light", but I can assure you that I do not, and those that actually practice the art here on BudoSeek! do not either.

Hi Robert,

I guess I should apologize if I came across as calling people on this site idiots. I guess over the last few days between this site, some other sites, and my BJJer friends discounting something they have no clue about just took its toll on me. My impression is from a combination of sources including a few comments on a thread about what jujutsu is to them or something like that. I will write more when it is no longer 4:30am. I honestly was not trying to spark a reaction, I just wanted to see where some of these ideas come from. Happy Aloha Friday.

[KIT]

Chris-

You kind of answered your own question.

Russ, Steve Delaney, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill and some others with extensive trad. JJ/koryu JJ experience post here, and are typically well received.

I should point out that most of them also, like yourself, have experience in modern expressions of JJ like Judo and BJJ, and all have also noted at one time or another the absolute necessity of extensive realistic randori training to develop practical grappling skills. Other friends who have similar experience in koryu JJ also have said the same to me often in conversation.

The difference is that many people outside of koryu don't understand that some koryu jujutsu traditions do have randori, or that many are practised alongside judo so that a heavy randori element is involved in regular practice.

Then again, I know from personal experience that some of these folks will also point out other systems and groups of both modern and koryu jujutsu, that are mired in lifeless forms, there is no vital energy to what they do, and where they would be clueless in a real altercation because they don't practice against realistic resistance ever. In personal conversations with one or two of these folks that fact has been bemoaned about certain of these attitudes or systems - the "we are too deadly to randori" types - and the example of performances of these types are noted to underscore their belief in a steady diet of randori practice.


Don't base your view of the board on a few posters, just as you should never base your view of an art (like BJJ) on a meeting with someone who was unaware BJJ (or JJ in general) had striking techniques. That says a lot more about that practitioner than it does the art.

I think you'll find here that for the posters that really have anything to add its about the training method, not the tradition. We don't accept that just because a koryu practices with strikes, bladed weapons, and police say that it would get the ACLU all over them (something I always find interesting
:confused: ) that it is a de facto "effective" system, or that it necessarily translates to practical modern application. Its all in how you train those factors. I don't think you'll find a one of us that would tell you to practice solely judo or BJJ randori and "call it good," either, especially those of us that do this kind of thing for a living.

BTW, good to hear Joel is doing well! Any idea if hes going to the sandbox?

[KIT]

I should also add this: If you do judo, BJJ and Takenouchi-ryu, you should really do some randori/rolling with the BJJ friends you mentioned - but with a training knife.


That should show them how effective many koryu methods can be when done with real resistance. I have found when you bring a weapon into the mix, like a training knife or a gunbelt and work weapon retention - a lot more of the "koryu-esque" stuff starts to come out.

It would also be a real education for them of how some of their stuff really is descended (sp?) from armed arts.

I have trained with cops and others who are quite surprised how much the grappling based stuff could save their bacon(did I say that?) in a real world weapons encounter. And likewise, I have I think surprised one or two koryu guys (and people from other traditional weapons systems) by showing them how a judo and BJJ base really works well paired with the weapons awareness of a traditional system.

[chrismoon]

Chris-

BTW, good to hear Joel is doing well! Any idea if hes going to the sandbox?

Hey you know him too! He is doing really well, he is starting his language traning school soon. I do not think we have to worry about him going to Iraq anytime soon as his specialty is Chinese. I was hoping he would be back for Wayne's wedding this weekend but it was not meant to be. I might go to Monterrey soon to see him and get some training with him.

[chrismoon]

I should also add this: If you do judo, BJJ and Takenouchi-ryu, you should really do some randori/rolling with the BJJ friends you mentioned - but with a training knife.


That should show them how effective many koryu methods can be when done with real resistance. I have found when you bring a weapon into the mix, like a training knife or a gunbelt and work weapon retention - a lot more of the "koryu-esque" stuff starts to come out.

It would also be a real education for them of how some of their stuff really is descended (sp?) from armed arts.

I have trained with cops and others who are quite surprised how much the grappling based stuff could save their bacon(did I say that?) in a real world weapons encounter. And likewise, I have I think surprised one or two koryu guys (and people from other traditional weapons systems) by showing them how a judo and BJJ base really works well paired with the weapons awareness of a traditional system.


Hi,

Thats kind of what I do now. When I practice with my judo and BJJ friends it is not so much to learn what they do but to apply what I have learned. I treat it as an experimental lab to test and validate. Joel was really good to do that with, which is one reason why I miss him. K, I am really going to get some sleep now and give your replies the justice they deserve when I am rested.

[KIT]

Chris

Unfortunately I only know Joel online - we were supposed to hook up once in Honolulu, and then once up here in the Pac Northwest, and it never came to pass.

Nighty-night, and tell him I said "Ni Hao" when ya see him.

[Fletch1]

A big ditto for Kit.

Coming from a Traditional JJ background before starting BJJ, I can say that neither has the monopoly on self defense effectiveness.

[Mekugi]

Does anyone know where all this comes from? Is it a from a generation of Aikido and George Kirby's Gentle Art books? Are people confusing different systems and creations withwhat really is koryu jujutsu? Before anyone gets their panties or spandex tights in a knot I am not claiming koryu jujutsu as an ultimate art, I just think that SOME people have no clue of just what it can do.

The word "Yawara" being translated into "gentle", sprinkle in some aikido and esoteric philosophy regarding technique over strength, microwave and serve.
Viola! "It's cute-and-fluffy". Incidentally, I do think you are a troll Chris(but looks aren't everything ;)) ! Didya get that yoroi doshi from Steve??

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

I'll Yoroi Doshi you ya git!

[Mekugi]

Promises, promises. You　will have your chance sooner than you think!
I'll Yoroi Doshi you ya git!

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Just to get back on track, and away from the banter,

Koryu jujutsu is gentle on the practicioner using the techniques, since economical, simple techniques are used, but not gentle on the person who is on the recieving end.

Techniques, like kicking the enemy's testicles while breaking his wrist/elbow, or clawing the eyes while effecting a takedown illustrate this quite well.

Physical & technical differences aside, mindset is one of the real main differences between koryu and gendai jujutsu systems. A lot of koryu jujutsu ryuha still retain a rather combative and aggressive mindset which is not usually found with modern, generic self defence oriented jujutsu styles. Ryuha like Takenouchi-ryu, Araki-ryu & Sosuishi-ryu after taking down an enemy make use of short bladed weapons to slash arteries in order to finish the aggressor. Almost predatory in nature.

Gentle? You be the judge.

[Mekugi]

Now that is a lovely way to put things, Steve. I wonder how anyone can even think of the word gentle in this context. I do believe there is far more "gentleness" to be found in modern schools and ideas than older ones. Somehow,the philosophy may have crossed Westward before any real contact or experience was to be had with the techniques of the ryuha; whereas reading material about the subject is readily available and easier.

-R




Techniques, like kicking the enemy's testicles while breaking his wrist/elbow, or clawing the eyes while effecting a takedown illustrate this quite well...
after taking down an enemy make use of short bladed weapons to slash arteries in order to finish the aggressor. Almost predatory in nature.
Gentle? You be the judge.

[nicojo]

Mr. Delaney, Russ,

I really like your interpretation of koryu JJ being gentle/yawara for the practitioner and not so much for the victim. It helps quite a bit! This has been one of those "lost-in-translation" things for me.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Now that is a lovely way to put things, Steve. I wonder how anyone can even think of the word gentle in this context.
-R

Well as a lot of us know, there is more than one meaning to the Kanji for Yawarakai （柔かい）. Supple, flexible and soft are other meanings for yawarakai. I think it's best left open to interpretation.

My personal interpretation is flexible art. You have to have to be flexible to practice the art, learn the principles and adapt them. It can also refer to having a flexible mind in alertness, which can adapt to different situations that arise, just like the situations that you are put in when training in certain different kata, so you don't get that "deer caught in oncoming headlights" look and freeze when something unexpected happens. But that's just my take on it.

[Lee82mark4]

My personal interpretation is flexible art. You have to have to be flexible to practice the art, learn the principles and adapt them.

I would add "yielding" as a decent adaption or translation. I think the word "flexible" reflects an eventual, wide knowledge of technique and when to use them, but "gentle" is just fine when used in the right context. There are many less than appropriate translations of things budo, such as "Martial arts," but the main complaint I hear is about those who refer to themselves as "martial artist," a bad term according to many for something at which you train for a lifetime.

There are many people who train in what may be "out of touch" if the sole idea is self-defense and/or killing. Most of koryu contains a majority of waza with a katana, some freely admitting it is worth keeping around for what it was, nearly all with a jujutsu syllabus either not taught or practiced much anymore, but is usually known by its masters. TSKSR is a good example.

Just to add to Robert's ID of Chris from E-budo, I know him well, generally from the Koryu general forum and jujutsu. He just had a "moment" something I am well known for taking out on lurkers.


For anyone who thinks jujutsu is a gentle non-violent art, I invite them to take a good look at the bruises on my arms, legs, and feet. Also, they are more than welcome to spend some time with me while I ice my wrists, elbows, and ankles after every class. They are also invited to follow me around the next day and listen as I try to pick things up and my arm almost gives out because my joints hurt so much. It is also a good time to watch me try to workout. Let's just say that Advil has become a very good friend of mine...

Gentle my a@s...

Perhaps you are not doing it correctly.;)

Also, watch your Advil (Ibuprofen) intake. Not only is it hard on the digestive tract, it is closely-related to Vioxx, Celebrex, and naproxen.

Joint problems at your age has a bleak future and drugs just are not enough. Let's see, Robert has a new hip and is ten years younger than I am. Rory Miller has blown out his knee and is, I think, about thirty-nine (he did this in 2001 or 2002), and I am looking at shoulder and elbow surgery soon (my knees are still good for an old judo player, however).

Mark

[tsurashi]

Ryuha like Takenouchi-ryu, Araki-ryu & Sosuishi-ryu after taking down an enemy make use of short bladed weapons to slash arteries in order to finish the aggressor. Almost predatory in nature.
Gentle? You be the judge.

Q; How do you escape a BJJ rear naked choke??

A: Stab him in the leg.

[KIT]

LOL -

IF you don't go out before you can even get to your knife. IF you can get to the knife at all because his legs are wrapped around your hips. IF he doesn't happen to see you going for your knife and trap your knife hand. And IF you have practiced getting to your knife while the guy on your back is actually doing his utmost to put you out...

Let's skip the simplistic "XYZ beats BJJ" stuff, shall we? One nice thing about this forum is that it is wonderfully free of the insecure style-bashing found on so many other forums.



Now, to get back on track, I am with Steve and his interpretation. I see it much more as flexibility/pliancy. I always liked Draeger's take:

"...Inasmuch as the emphasis on realism in combat dominated the teachings of most ryu, it is also quite clear that the principle of ju, which underlies the operation of many of these "empty-hand" methods, likewise contained a practical bias.

The principle of ju underlies all classical bujutsu methods, and was adopted by the developers of the budo disciplines. Acting according to the principle of ju the classical warrior could intercept and mementarily control his enemy's blade when attacked, then, in a flash, could counterattack with a force powerful enough to cleave armor and kill the foe. The same principle of ju permitted an unarmed exponent to unbalance and hurl his foe to the ground.

Terms like "jujutsu" and "yawara" made the principle of ju the all-pervading one in methods catalogued under these terms. That principle was rooted in the concept of pliancy or flexibility, as understood in both a mental an a physical context. To apply the principle of ju, the exponent had to be both mentally and physically capable of adapting himself to whatever situation his adversary might impose on him."

- Classical Budo, p. 121.

[DuckofDeath]

Could the gentle art have been given that name in a tongue-in-cheek fashion?

[Mekugi]

It sure seems like it. I believe it was a translation thing within the context of the word and use. For example, when you get down to it yasashii ( 優しい ) is gentle also, but more like nice, kind, polite, etc. Yawara　or "ju-" 柔 on the other hand, levitates towards a soft, pliable, flexible description of things. Like Steve said, it could be a mindset or ideal. A strategy (pull/push/turn for instance) with a poetic personafication, reflecting a litererary concept rather than a down and dirty/ spitting out your teeth description.


Could the gentle art have been given that name in a tongue-in-cheek fashion?

[Rasputin]

I have always thought of "ju" as relating to the practitioner's attitude towards the attacker's energy. A jujutsuka does not stand as a mighty oak before the hurricane, he yields to the energy of the winds, allowing them to pass by him.

Many ostensibly "hard style" practitioners will stand firm before an attacker and meet force with greater force. This runs counter to "ju".

Flexible, as a reed.

Yielding, as kelp before the tides.

Gentle, as in quicksand, which gently envelops and entraps without any force.

[Dan Harden]

Hi Chris and Steve

Chris, you a troll? That’s a laugh. Well..... maybe the way you look....cough

The entire take on Koryu jujutsu is from whom about what. I would venture to guess that if you asked for specifics most people simply don't know why they have the opinion other than they heard it some where. Stop and think Chris...just how many have experience with it?
I tend to dismiss the "opinions" altogether. First from asking certain questions, then I get them to change ther minds after playing together for a while.
Jujutsu and new arts
The entire notion of Ju with these new ring arts reminds me of the "bad" judo (there is good judo still out there to be had) practitioners-all muscle. And while they talk of "street effectiveness" all the day long- they dismiss the parent arts that have weapon based finishes, seizing techniques, deception strategies, breath and body control to de-escalate a situation until you are ready to strike, neck cranks, foot stomping, face stomping, myriad chokes, throws that are very difficult to take ukemi from, carotid strikes that black out people while standing, significant head and neck controls (so goes the head -so goes the body) and some of the best kicks and punching techniques I've seen; particularly soft punches and controlling kicks. For those that like anecdotal experiences, I’ve knocked out jujutsuka on the ground, with a punch from about 5”…. to the right place, with the correct movement. From the experiences I have had with this new breed of jujutsu player I see and feel all muscle with nary a relaxed player anywhere. They are most assuredly missing out on skill sets they could truly make good use of were they to bother to take the time to learn them.
ANd the new craze of freestyle is mising out on some fundemental truths about the street fight they extoll. Fighter-to-fighter ring style training- is an exercise that grows increasingly narrow and artificial as it “evolves.” All while the inexperienced kids who “view it and do it” claim its superiority. There is oh so much more to training then spending all your time training freestlye with another fighter. Freetyle Which I still do every week has serious weaknesses and is quite artifially morphing, in and of itself.
Training is training. And there are many ways to train for different things
fight'n is fight'n and you absolutely need to do it as well.
I hope people do not bother to train to understand the deeper aspects that are avaliable. That they do not train to fight with a relaxed smothering feel, nor to absorb deflect and move one way while being pressed another, nor to capture the bag of sand feel in their bodies that can whip, nor to develop what feels like an iron bar -which is almost dead soft- response, nor to learn to NOT to BE thrown.

So, again Chris....the criticisms are- from whom, about what? Let them think we cannot "roll and bang." The more convinced in a vaccum they become- the happier I am.

And what's even funnier is to now hear the younger men slamming Judo- all the while extoling BJJ (which is a fine art). But I for one, cannot help but to sit hear laughin my butt off watching them all do Judo ne waza based techniques. And the ring craze crowd with their now famous "BJJ triangle choke"...invented by?
The Kodokan's "Judo Master"....Mifune.
Oh well.

Cheers
Dan

[Jeff C.]

Dan,

The first time I was choked out with sangaku jime (triangle strangle) was in 1979 - by a judo godan. ;)

I think I am pretty lucky. The BJJ folks I have trained and hung out with are VERY respectful of judo. My BJJ instructor, Charles Dos Anjos (formerly a Barra Gracie instructor) holds dan rank in judo and karate (Shotokan) as well as BJJ. Many of the students, myself included, hold black belt rank in judo, as well as aikido, jujitsu, karate, TKD, etc. I have found this to be true at every BJJ school I am familiar with. Fortunately the only young BJJ guys I have encountered who say derogatory things about judo have ONLY been on the internet. I would guess that they are very low ranking, or not even training, in BJJ. I surely hope you don't think that is an unprofessional trend in the active BJJ world.

I will also loudly say again: judo and BJJ are the best things to have happened to each other!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[TonyU]

Jeff I agree with you.
While my experience in BJJ is limited as opposed to yourself, I find the same to be true. The BJJ guys I train with respect and cross triain in Judo.
Also, my BJJ sensei was originally a Judo practitioner and ranked before going into BJJ.


judo and BJJ are the best things to have happened to each other!
I know it's the best thing that's happened to me.

[Moon dog]

I think the Idea that the things Done in soft styles is ineffective comes from people that see a few beginner classes. The initial foot work that frequently must be taught to allow a person to use their center rather than say, thier shoulders seems by itself to be ineffective. Its not until a student learns to use this foot work with other technique that it becomes appearent how powerfull this footwork and gentle re-direction of Uki can be. Its hard to explain to someone inexperienced how by extending thier wrist or shoulder before applying a twisting motion amplifies the effectiveness. So they continue in their muscle intensive ways never knowing how easily and brutilly they might be overcome.

Today I routinely take in a few extra Judo classes after training the Jujtsu. It allows me to heal up a bit and still work on good body motion and balance issues as well as good tough grappling and submiision techniques. Simply stated the submission techniques though they can be painfull do not seem as intense of pain as finding yourself stuck on your toes in pain with no way to get away from the pain except maybe do a roll 5 Ft off the ground. which comes close to dislocation of the joint from the hold and means you hope for the best as you try to roll out from the fall.
I suppose part of this is that you are readilly able to tap out before bad injury with a submission hold. Where, when you get caught in forward attack motion and find yourself suspended in a painfull hold with Jujutsu your own body wieght and motion becomes a big problem even if your opponent stops. Gentle brutallity. You have to love it!!!