Karate Punch

[Good advisor]

In Karate kumite do you clench the fist throughout Kumite, The instrutor said to me, I should clench my fist but is karateka supposed to be realx until the moment of Impact?

My Instrutor post this
''Yes you should keep a full contact mentality but never follow through when with a partner only in a real SELF DEFENCE situation. Also any Student below 3rd Kyu Should always keep there fists clenched during Kumite this prevents fingers and thumbs from being broken (Trust me I know from previous experience! ). Also No spinning or sweeping techniques are to be executed by students below 3rd Kyu during Kumite and no shuto strikes or nukite are allowed at any level during kumite.

Snap Kicks do hurt and any tecnique that you practice has the potential to Injure or seriously hurt wich is why we should have a more mature attitude when writing about training as well as training in the dojo. ''

[gakusei]

Your hands should be closed but not tight during kumite. Especially for lower ranks as indicated by below 3 kyu. Tighten on impact.

[CEB]

The KarateKa will be totally relaxed once he is knocked out. Otherwise probably not.

Ed Boyd

[Gene Williams]

A proper fist is a proper fist. If your fist is closed, then it is closed properly. Playing around with your fist position is like cocking and uncocking your weapon during combat. If your fist is closed, you are always in the process of punching, even if you never throw the punch. Think about it.

[potentpoefie]

Your sensei knows what he is talking about.

I can tell you from experience that a not properly closed fist allows your thumb to get cought in either a gi or just because it protrudes it gets jabbed into a body part.

That hurts.....it hurts a lot and you could break your thumb.

It is very much the same sensation when you inclose your thumb with your fingers of the same hand and puch down on it. That joint where the thumb and hand connects.

So keep your fists properly closed and safe your thumbs.

[KyokushinGuy]

Sounds like you sensei has summed it up pretty well. I kinda like the idea of people under 3rd kyu being required to keep their hands in a fist all the time. That probably would have saved me a lot of pain. I had a very bad habit of leaving my thumb hanging loose while blocking, and I would get it jammed just about every time I fought. I'm lucky I didn't break it. Finally I had to actually tape my thumb to my hand whenever I fought. Maybe a little unorthadox, but at least it broke me of the habit.

Now that I've advanced a little further (not much further, but a little bit at least!) I've started fighting more open handed. Most of my blocks are open handed parries and I tend to use the ridge hand a lot (not exactly an open handed strike, but more open that a punch).

If you want to fight with your hands open, I would recommened practicing going from a relaxed open hand to a tight fist as quickly as you can. You don't have to do this during "practice time": just do it whenever your hands are free. You want to make sure that when your fist connects with their body that your hand, and esp. your wrist, are tight and strong.

[CEB]

More to it than just not hurting your fingers.

Ed Boyd

[Luar]

In Karate kumite do you clench the fist throughout Kumite, The instrutor said to me, I should clench my fist but is karateka supposed to be realx until the moment of Impact?


In my style, the reason you do not clent your fist until impact is to gain speed. When you are relax, you will execute your strikes much faster and much more powerful.

[CEB]

In your style what part of the fist do you hit with and how is the fist aligned with the forearm bones? Just curious.

Ed Boyd

[Aefibird]

We hit with a horizontal fist which connects primarily with the first two knuckles.

My Sensei usually tells beginners and lower grade students to keep a closed fist (correct postition, natch) most of the time. It helps them to get a feel for what a correct fist postition is like and also helps prevent injuries (from sticking out thumbs and the like).

We keep a relaxed arm and hand when punching until the moment of impact when the body is tensed quickly.

[Gene Williams]

Fist should be properly and tightly closed when in chambered position. Shoulders, body, etc. relaxed until impact when everything focuses. If you don't train with proper fist, you won't close it properly in combat. Makiwara should be used frequently to train yourself.

[Ayla]

In Karate kumite do you clench the fist throughout Kumite, The instrutor said to me, I should clench my fist but is karateka supposed to be realx until the moment of Impact?

My Instrutor post this
''Yes you should keep a full contact mentality but never follow through when with a partner only in a real SELF DEFENCE situation. Also any Student below 3rd Kyu Should always keep there fists clenched during Kumite this prevents fingers and thumbs from being broken (Trust me I know from previous experience! ). Also No spinning or sweeping techniques are to be executed by students below 3rd Kyu during Kumite and no shuto strikes or nukite are allowed at any level during kumite.

Snap Kicks do hurt and any tecnique that you practice has the potential to Injure or seriously hurt wich is why we should have a more mature attitude when writing about training as well as training in the dojo. ''
I don't like it when people say "under 3rd kyu" or whatever, a 9th kyu could be better than a 5th kyu but just have less experience but still be able to execute all the movements.

[CEB]

Does your Mom and Dad know your are on the internet talking to strangers?

I don't let my children on the net unsupervised.

[G Hendrix]

Emily, you are welcome to post at the forum. Just remember NEVER to give out your phone number NOR your address. If anyone on the internet or anywhere else, ask you for your phone number or address or to meet up with them, DON"T!! Contact the moderators/webmaster of the forum at once.

Some forums are not only filled with people who pretend to be somebody else, but are also set up by known bad people. I know of at least one such martial art forum. This forum is be staffed with honest and decent people.

If anyone approach you to ask for personal information, please contact the moderators/webmaster here. Remember, the bad people may pretend to be your friend at first. Don't trust anyone.

This is also a safer forum because there are quite a few of real life cops here. They seem to be very caring too. That kind of keep the bad people away. But you still have to becareful. While I don't think there is any fake cop here, there are plenty of people pretending to be a police or in the military over the internet.

[potentpoefie]

What are you on about?

If you are truely concernd about this person send them a private message.

Don't flame them with off topic stuff. You didn't actually say one on thread thing through that whole post of yours.

I don't mind the off topic thing as much as the fact that you flame somebody. As far as I am concerned this is one of the coolest forums because we do not allow flaming.

Seeing that you would likely come and kick my behind I would just like this suggestion. Nothing more and nothing less than a suggestion. Please don't flame people. Thanks. Use it don't use it.

Maybe I misunderstood the post completely and I humbly apologize.

[TonyU]

Okay everyone,
Lets get back on board.
It ends here.
Let's move on.

[muken]

although many will disagree with me....I believe that the true punch is not clenched until it touches the target...the degree of clenching depends on what kind of impact that you wish to have....for a "whipping"/ "shocking" impact...you shouldn't tighten up that much on impact....for a "knockdown" punch you clench your fist more and drive it through on impact.
Interestingly enough, many high level practicioners in okinawa and japan (as well as in chinese arts..at least bagua and tai chi) punch this way...the late great Sensei Shigeru Egami said something to the effect.."tsuki isn't tsuki until the moment of impact" and Kiyoshi Arakaki in his excellent technical book "The Secrets of Okinawan Karate" also mentions not clenching until impact.
Clenching before you punch or even during, is too slow and you can lose speed and power.
Many will disagree, perhaps, because their instructor never showed them this.
That all being said, you do have to be real careful or you could damage your wrist and the carpal bones that make up your wrist as well as damage your digits.
Just my humble opinion born of experience.

[Gene Williams]

Hi Joe, Why don't you tell us what art you study and a little bit about it? Everything focuses on impact, breath, punch, spirit, etc. Just don't let beginners get the idea that they are supposed to be running around with half closed fists. :D

[muken]

As requested...the art I study...karate...through shorin ryu forms...I focus on naihanchi shodan, gojushiho and to a lesser degree, the pinans. I have studied tai chi chuan (yang style) and also experientially researched other arts including hsing i, bagua and systema. I also attend a lot of seminars and am always looking for common threads based on anatomy, kinesiology and newtonian physics. I do not claim any special knowledge but I practice, research and experiment constantly. I hope I am not boring anyone..anyway, the short answer is shorin ryu though I admit that I use much less overt tension in my kata and kihon waza practice than many other stylists. Please read the works of Sensei Shigeru Egami and Kyoshi Arakaki as well as Miyamoto Musashi for more on this. Musashi hated "stiff wrists and heavy hands". I have found that it works for me. I seem to have more speed, power, endurance and feel generally better after practicing.
I don't mean to lead anyone astray....though I have learned much from going astray myself...
Ultimately, to me, karate is about becoming a better person and seeing beyond good and evil...beginer or expert.

[Gene Williams]

I think most of us have read those books. So, you are an eclectic martial artist...sort of Shorin ryu, sort of Tai Chi, sort of Shoto Kai who reads a lot and goes to seminars. Okay....

[muken]

I believe all martial artists are eclectic...I consider myself a shorin ryu stylist...I don't practice any other arts anymore...though they obviously have influenced my practice. I am not sure how to take your tone. You seem to have an edge. I am not inflicting my beliefs on anyone. This is an open board and I merely posted my beliefs on the topic and you asked me my background and I answered honestly. As for those books...I am glad others have read those books. I found them very helpful.
Enough about me. If you have anymore questions regarding my practice please private message me and I would be glad to answer.
If I misunderstood your tone I apologize in advance.

[Gene Williams]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Rasputin]

You seem to have an edge.

You have absolutely no idea how reserved Gene is being right now. The Mods are sitting back in their seats, shocked.

[Gene Williams]

Awwww...shucks!! :bandit:

[potentpoefie]

Gene, I don't know how to read that last statement.

It sounded very dismissive. :)

[De_Franza]

Recall that in written communication such as these boards, the spoken voice and friendly smile are missing, so misunderstandings can happen.

Back on topic, this thread brings up a classis question: do you remake a style to suit the individual practicioner or remake the practicioner to suit the style? Is one of these approces "right" or "wrong"?
I don't pretend to have an answer.

Didn't this start about punches? I don't have nearly the experience that some of the others have, but I always was taught to keep my fist tight ALL THE TIME. But with practice one learns to keep everything else loose so speed is not lost. And I was taught to tighten everything at the instant of impact... and to immediately relax and retract. Loose loose loose, except that fist and at the moment of impact.

I almost broke my left wrist once doing Down block with a loose fist... rattled everything around and that wrist has never been the same. So it's more than the thumb and fingers at stake. Like Gene and Ed alluded to, a lot of training is about forming good habits. If you're in the habit of keep ing a good fist, you'll have it when you need it and don't have time to think.

Fight how you train and all that.
Just my $0.02.

[Gene Williams]

The ryu and the dojo do not change. The individual conforms to the ryu. Lots of modern types don't like that. Too bad.
Yes, the fist should be tight all the time. There is focus at the point of impact, and the fist may harden some, but basically...tight fist. That doesn't mean tense arms and body, however. There are a lot of Johnny-come-lately philosophical types that theorize themselves into bad habits. They make it harder than it is.

[Black Fox]

I try to stay off the sight – my life gets too busy and you people have too many interesting topics. I agree with the above posts to an extent.

If you do not know the truth of your karate punch - make sure you get into a stable, correct and safe habit that works well before you decide to ‘break it’ with creativity and ‘go beyond’. A good technique and strategy base gives you a foundation of resources to use. First you apply these resources to the maximum possible effect and then you ‘go beyond’.

When you know the Truth you don’t need a style.

Like using the process of the mind: first you apply all your faculties of reason to a problem and when you reach a limit you shift into a ‘beyond mode’ called intuition. Some people think that they do not need to apply what they already know. In the providence of the mind this gets called stupidity: not using your faculties of reason to their fullest and jumping to the use of intuition makes the intuitive leap far less accurate and if reason within your limits did hold an answer – you just short circuited that.

The same holds true for using a technique base in a style. Use it to maximum effect and then go beyond. If your technique base isn’t stable – this means you still need to work on technical, and strategic issues and will become unstable when using these applications – the result will come to no beyond at all – just vulnerability and ‘bad technique’.

Most styles do not mesh well with anyone except the founder and a few rare types who happen to match up with it by accident. A style of a founder is found ‘within’ and often through the great sacrifice such knowing oneself requires.

Musashii came out of a time of violence and had no formal training – not even from his father. He killed a veteran of a respected fencing school brutally at the age of thirteen. He did not propose he had a ‘little of this style or that style in this manner and mixture – and he never claimed to adopt the falsity of a static and established system ‘designed for the modern time’ of his day by respected sword masters. His secret and he states it plainly: seek out truth.

Most people in his time and even now fear the truth. Musashii studied arts, and carpentry. He took up the sword and found not just ‘what worked’ for having no style – but with a deep love for truth sought out the depth of truth to every movement and application and trained this sight constantly. He faithfully sought out the truth to fighting with the sword and nothing else.

He did not seek trophies, the attention of women, the praise of others or acceptance by his people, he did not even seek out great wealth, and he never even had children – all these pursuits take time and effort and are fostered by all societies as important – the values these pursuits impart are by definition exist superficial to the pursuit of truth.

Musashii cultivated all the faculties he could in the pursuit of truth in overcoming men with the sword. When the limits of his experience and faculties were reached – he went ‘beyond’ and could do things no other could do.

If you know the truth already about your punch – why do you seek affirmation at an internet discussion board that mostly involves ‘social’ interactions and no proof beyond the courteous addition of another thought?

[Gene Williams]

I swear Russell, have you ever tried just working out without all of that gobbledy-gook running through your head? "If you know the Truth, you don't need a style." That will be the dojo humor story this evening. :D

[Black Fox]

I swear Russell, have you ever tried just working out without all of that gobbledy-gook running through your head? "If you know the Truth, you don't need a style." That will be the dojo humor story this evening. :D

Cool. Internet discussion board topics and the conceptual basis for action have little to do with the contents of an active mind or what I or anyone may personally do during the execution of movement. I simply refer to a framework that works. 'No-thought' and doing with mindfulness what one does in action produces the best results in use and in practice.

In construction of a house you think, plan, and redistribute resources. In your execution of hammering a nail - you think only of hammering that nail. The framework still exists.

When Karate punching - punch and nothing else.
When thinking on fighting, think deep on the Truth of it.
When thinking on punching, think deep on the Truth of it.

To discus the design of a house or how a doorway gets built when sitting having tea or while on a discussion board could promote actual accomplishment in a particular project. To have another employee working on the same project ask whether you go through all that design 'gobbledy-gook' while you hammer your nails only confuses things for the others at the table and shows the perspective he uses. This is not a man you would want at your design and planning meetings – unless his question was there to remind the simple workman to not think of these things ‘while he worked’.

If you find such a concept funny - I applaud you. Humor and surprise often precede learning. Laughter at least brings some extra oxygen to the nervous-system. I would laugh with you.

Your style that you promote so dedicatedly is Japanese, right:
When the body is still the mind must be in action. When the body is in action the mind becomes still. With practice they combine and: the activity of the mind becomes the activity of the body with no separation.

You give up 'style' and obtain Truth or you retain a lie.
Action will follow your thoughts and internal set-up.

I hope at least someone can understand the difference between the Truth manifest and it’s superiority over style and the inverse: belief over Truth yielding superiority over the truth on terms generally superficial and usually social - producing a lie. On terms of Truth manifest a lie will always fall short once it's 'limit' has been reached.

[Rasputin]

Your style that you promote so dedicatedly is Japanese, right

Unless I miss my mark, Shito Ryu is Okinawan, not Japanese:

http://www.all-karate.com/shito_ryu_karate.php
http://www.shitokai.com/

Right, Gene?

[Chinto01]

Well I do not know about you guys but I got my philosophy lesson for the day. I think. Can you please maybe just get to the point of your posts? Russell what is the truth then? :bow:

[Gene Williams]

Unless I miss my mark, Shito Ryu is Okinawan, not Japanese:

http://www.all-karate.com/shito_ryu_karate.php
http://www.shitokai.com/

Right, Gene?

Shito ryu is Okinawan. Mabuni moved to Osaka in 1927 and became a very popular teacher. Shito-ryu exploded and became one of the big 4 styles in Japan. But it is an Okinawan style and is still taught on Okinawa. Russell reminds me of Beavis after too many cups of coffee and too many Hostess Ding Dongs :laugh:

[Black Fox]

The Truth may only be alluded to.

You obtain Truth by acting on knowledge, not getting 'stuck' on what you think you know, and really going after Truth.

I only know everyone who posses a true sincerity beyond mere beleif and obsession may get a chance at it. It transforms you. It is never the same for everyone or anyone - so anothers path may mislead you.

Teachers exist.
I am not a teacher.

Basic instincts run counter to it's obtaining.

Some basic information may be neccesary
before one can obtain a teacher in any form.

Sorry, I can provide very little else -
all other work involves identifying falsehood.

[Gene Williams]

Well, there is Truth....that is my right fist, and then there is Beauty...that is my left fist. Truth/Beauty, Truth/Beauty...my one/two punch. All else is Falsehood. I hate Falsehood. I found it hiding in my closet last week and, Boy, did I Truth/Beauty it!!! :mad: I also found Falsehood in the glove box of my car (I think I have a car) yeah, it was in the glove box of my car. Man, it made me so mad. I just closed my Truth tightly and let him have it. Falsehood is bad and it sux. Now, Truth, well, that is really Good...did I mention Good, well, see, Good is sort of like Truth, but not exactly, well, I mean, it is a lot like Truth, but not just the same sort of thing. Good is like cake and pie, but girls are good, too, boys, well, maybe, I'm just not sure. Anyway, Good is not just like cake and pie, I mean, karate is Good, too, but if karate is Truth can it be Good, too. This is very deep. I must go ponder.

[Black Fox]

So, your punch is not 'Okken-Noggin'?

It manifests truth.

The truth comes from an anchored place 'within' you, by your action and current aprehension of truth in relation to changing conditions.

This is good. This is deep.

Then how do we obtain Truth in every punch?

[Gene Williams]

I think Black Fox is just playing games with everyone and is some kind of weird Troll. I certainly hope he isn't that psychotic. Of course, he is from Seattle... :D

[Black Fox]

hah, maybe...

Could it be all the coffee I drink? Shake... :eek:

Maybe your right. :rolleyes:

[Gene Williams]

I like the Starbucks Espresso, but Jamaican Blue Mountain is the best coffee I ever tasted. It is rather expensive. I got two pounds of whole bean Blue Mountain for Christmas from my son. I still have a pound left. Most restaurants mix it with something else.

[potentpoefie]

No talk about getting off topic. I actually enjoyed the ravings of Black Fox. It made me think.

Wasn't it Bruce Lee who also said that he his goal was to have no style. (and no, i am not talking fashion here) Strip out all the formal brown smelly stuff that didn't do anything in the way of winning your openent.

I recon the truth of combat is to defeat your enemy at all costs. Even if that means giving your life in the process. If you hold styles up to that how many martial arts really teach the truth?

I mean don't get me wrong. I am training a traditional style myself and enjoy it very much. I think there are a lot of things we do in Goju that really is outdated and is only there for the traditional side of it and because of respect for the founder.

Sometime I wonder if the founders would be happy about this. I mean the reason they started their own styles were because it had (in their opinions) short commings. Would they not have changed the styles they created if they could see us train reduntent techniaques?

That is my 2c worhts. Which is a lot less seeing that my currency isn't that strong against the US Dollar. :)

[Gene Williams]

I understand what you are saying, but sometimes we "think" too much and theorize too much. You practice the art you are in. If you want to sample other things, fine, but you need an anchor. The "truth" of combat is indeed to defeat your enemy at all costs, but the "truth" of the martial ARTS is deeper and more complex than that. For defeating my enemies, I carry a firearm.
The ryu doesn't care if new students and young guys think a lot of what is done is outdated. The ryu does not change to meet the whims of would be Bruce Lee's. You stay or you leave; the ryu continues.

[Rasputin]

And the simple fact, though a bitter pill to swallow, is that one's viewpoint will change after faithfully studying a traditional art for the 20, 30 or even 40 years that it takes to truly understand it. It seems a platitude to tell someone "just keep training", but it's the truth.

You did not mention specifics, Lin, but odds are that the things you would strip from Gojo Ryu will only gain meaning much later.

[Gene Williams]

Lin, Founders did not "create their own styles" because they thought there were "shortcomings." The original founders were attempting to integrate techniques, concepts,and history (lineage) into an organic entity. Many of the ryu simply evolved from what the originators began. Mabuni Kenwa "founded" Shito ryu because he wanted to honor his two teachers, Itosu and Higaonna by bringing both their teachings together in one synthesis. He wasn't a disgruntled malcontent like some today who think they can do it better. Such attitudes are not generally characteristic of the Okinawan founders. Many ryu were passed along in a hereditary manner (soke). Some of the more recent ryu, or branches of ryu, may have been formed for political reasons. As with any human endeavor, conflicts will arise. But, I believe the evolution and development of the major traditional ryu was much more organic and subtle than you are imagining. BTW, there is nothing redundant in a ryu. Everything has a purpose, even what appears redundant. You are still a young chicken, don't be so impatient. If you just want to learn to fight the quickest way, take up boxing or BJJ. Otherwise, back to the dojo with you :D

[potentpoefie]

Hehehe. That would put me in my place. Thanks for the insight. If I weigh up my options I think back to the dojo is the option I would take.

I have tried many Martial Arts but I must say nothing will ever get me away from Goju. No BJJ or boxing.

[Gene Williams]

You are in a good place. Goju is a fine art. I have always told my students that if I ever had to switch arts, I would choose Goju. I encourage them to visit Goju dojo when they are out of town and want to train. I wasn't trying to "put you in your place," but there is a lot of distraction out there and on these internet forums. I hate to see young students leave the traditional ryu because they get mislead. The old ryu aren't for everyone, but there are treasures to be found there if you want to dig.

[potentpoefie]

Don't worry. I didn't take it as a reprimand. See tone is lost on an internet forum.

I can see how that happens. I have been in Goju now since 1993 so I don't think I will be mislead but I always do try and keep an open mind and I so do like to play devil's advocate whenever I can. Nothing like a good debate.