ITF vs. WTF

[Jared Sutton]

I have read many histories of TKD on the internet and I'm wondering if anyone can tell the real issues that broke up the two and today, what the major differences are(and I don't want to see "WTF is widely concerned with the sport aspect of Tae Kwon Do).

[kodanjaclay]

Well.. first they were never together. Choi founded the ITF after being forcibly removed from the KTA. This was for two reasons. 1) he went to the DPRK against orders (he was a major general) and 2) he forced the name change from Tae Soo Do to Taekwondo. So word has it that Master Uhm and some of the other seniors helped him set up the ITF with the priviso that he would be done with TKD in the ROK.

[MstNestor]

Master Clay is giving you good information.
There are some elemental differences between kicking applications within ITF and WTF, at least from what I have seen. Additionally, ITF forms resemble Shotokan (to me) and they seem to place more importance on the hand techniques than the WTF does.

[Kyuusaku]

In an interview long ago, Choi said that he had felt that the Korean government was trying to control him and putting pressure on him, so he put his ITF headquarters in Canada, out of Korea.

Korea, not happy with that, made their own organization, headed by Kim Unyong, and this was the WTF.

In Choi's point of view, it appears that the ITF was first, and the WTF second.

Unfortunately, ITF practitioners apparently cannot participate in the Olympics (in Japan, one very good player did not compete as a result). I guess they are completely different then?!

ITF apparently has a sine-wave movement theory that they try to apply to add power.

WTF has the 'walking stance', a lot of hopping, and a lot of new innovations (mostly new kicks like the double roundhouse, etc.) that are often used in sparring.

Edward Cha

[oneinchpunchmaster]

Master Clay is giving you good information.
There are some elemental differences between kicking applications within ITF and WTF, at least from what I have seen. Additionally, ITF forms resemble Shotokan (to me) and they seem to place more importance on the hand techniques than the WTF does.

I have to agree with you.My taekwondo academy is under the ITF and we Learn to perfect both hand AND foot techniques.Believe it or not but in my TKD academy we learn about 40 hand techniques like punches,strikes etc and around 33 foot techniques.We learn 20 stances..Thats more use of hands than foot :eek:

[Eliz]

I have to agree with you.My taekwondo academy is under the ITF and we Learn to perfect both hand AND foot techniques.Believe it or not but in my TKD academy we learn about 40 hand techniques like punches,strikes etc and around 33 foot techniques.We learn 20 stances..Thats more use of hands than foot :eek:


20 Stances? :confused: Are you serious?

[kodanjaclay]

If I might... don't get wrapped up in specific techniques. Any art should be a living art and once it stagnates it is dead. ie... stance training IS important... but what is beyond it?

[oneinchpunchmaster]

Yes i am and here they are :)


1 - Soojik Sogi- Vertical Stance
2 - Nacho Sogi- Low Stance
3 - Yongsok Sogi- Consecutive Stance
4 - Dwitbal Sogi- Rear Foot Stance
5 - Kyocha Sogi- X Stance
6 - Gorburyo Junbi Sogi 'A'- Bending Ready Stance 'A'
7 - Moa Junbi Sogi 'A'- Closed Ready Stance 'A'
8 - Moa Junbi Sogi 'B'- Closed Ready Stance 'B'
9 - Moa Junbi Sogi 'C'- Closed Ready Stance 'C'
10 - Gojang Sogi- Fixed Stance
11 - Niunja Sogi- L Stance
12 - Gunnon Sogi- Walking Stance
13 - Annun Sogi- Sitting Stance
14 - Narani Junbi Sogi- Parallel Ready Stance
15 - Charyot Sogi- Attention Stance
16 - Waebal Sogi- One Leg Stance
17 - Sasun Sogi- Diagonal Stance
18 - Narani So Hanul Son- Parallel Ready Stance With Heaven Hand
19 - Moa Sogi Hanulson- Close Stance with Heaven Hand
20 - Guburyo Junbi Sogi 'B'- Bending Ready Stance 'B'

[Eliz]

Thanks for spelling it out for me. :) Some of the stances you have listed seperately, we more or less lump together. As for the different 'ready stances' you have listed, I never knew there was more than one.

As to M Frank's post, you are exactly right. Technique is not the "be all and end all" of Martial Arts training. However, it's an important teaching tool and an important resource for learning. I think most instructors strive for that perfect balance between combat and technique.

[oneinchpunchmaster]

My TaekWon-Do academy is very interesting. We concentrate on self defence and grappling aswell. :bow:

[Spookey]

Kodanjaclay,

Please do not forget that the ITF was formed in South Korea in 1966. Choi Hong Hi and the ITF didnt leave the country until 1970-71. That disputes
your comment...

"word has it that Master Uhm and some of the other seniors helped him set up the ITF with the priviso that he would be done with TKD in the ROK."

Furthermore, I dont believe that General Choi Hong Hi travelled to DPRK (North Korea) before moving the ITF Headquarters to Canada.

TAEKWON!
Spookey

Michael Bateman

[Alexjohn]

They're's an unbelievable difference!!! While WTF focuses on full contact free sparring (and not much else), ITF is a far more balanced style, with more of an emphasis on the practical application of the art. I do ITF Taekwondo and it's great! You learn great self defense techniques and blocks. The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi six years before his exile from South Korea. After this, the WTF was founded to promote the art. However, in WTF accounts of the beginning of Taekwondo, General Choi Hong Hi is left out entirely. It is my opinion that ITF and WTF Taekwondo are two completely different arts. They have different forms and sparring. ITF uses a technique called Sinewave to generate power in hand strikes and blocks which is not used by the WTF. WTF focuses more on kicking techniques, while ITF is more balanced, using lots of hand strikes. Because of this, ITF Taekwondo is more of a realistic defence system
..We have to understand that TKD primarily is use too defence system (build not only physically but also internally-mind and soul)not only for winning in competition/scoring or just to get medal..
ITF kicks are characterized by a wide trajectory with maximum reach (the classical or traditional technique). The movements and the exercises are performed with the typical ITF "sine wave" (an up-and-down body movement aiming at the increasing of power). When executing a technique, a characteristic hissing sound made by a sudden breathing out through the teeth to tighten the abdominal and protect inner organs in case of counter-attack..
ITF Taekwondo seeks self-development and spiritual improvement, while WTF Taekwondo seeks superiority over an opponent—winning.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.

ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

ITF Taekwondo is formalized, WTF Taekwondo is not..
It's better to practice ITF style sparring because quite simply it is safer and we have very few injuries as a result
WTF concentrates on the sport element of Taekwon-Do whereas ITF concentrates on all areas of self-defence. ITF is concerned with enabling people to be able to defend themselves against an attack, where WTF is more concerned with performing well in competitions. Competition is a small part of ITF ideology.

[AndrewSimonsen]

Alot of that is subjective and not all is true across the spectrum. Ms. Eliz for example is with the WTF yet her group does ITF style point sparring. While you do bring up could points in the differences in ideology, they don't hold true across the board. You will see many WTF schools that put hardly any emphasis on competition and there are most certainly ITF schools that stress the sport aspects.

[Jonathan Randall]

Alot of that is subjective and not all is true across the spectrum. Ms. Eliz for example is with the WTF yet her group does ITF style point sparring. While you do bring up could points in the differences in ideology, they don't hold true across the board. You will see many WTF schools that put hardly any emphasis on competition and there are most certainly ITF schools that stress the sport aspects.

So true.

I do agree that ITF and WTF are, in many ways, different arts, though. When I considered returning to a stand-up traditional style it was either ITF TKD or Shotokan. The WTF schools I visited, while of good quality, were completely foreign to me.

It is NOT true, though, that WTF schools do not work on self-defence. One WTF school I visited was working the entire class on self-defence drills. I learned something just from watching.

There's no way to avoid the fact that the current ITF does have some political liabilities that the WTF doesn't (such as having the ITF founder declare Kim Il Sung the head of TKD in the world, IIRC).

[Eliz]

They're's an unbelievable difference!!! While WTF focuses on full contact free sparring (and not much else), ITF is a far more balanced style, with more of an emphasis on the practical application of the art.

:puke: Perhaps I might suggest you spend a little more time learning WTF TKD before posting outlandish remarks such as the above.


I do ITF Taekwondo and it's great! You learn great self defense techniques and blocks.

I have been in both WTF and ITF schools and I think they BOTH are great! You learn great self defense techniques and blocks in both. PRACTICAL sd, not sport defense.


ITF uses a technique called Sinewave to generate power in hand strikes and blocks which is not used by the WTF.

Not all ITF schools use it either. Of the schools that do use it, it is frequently not taught properly.


WTF focuses more on kicking techniques, while ITF is more balanced, using lots of hand strikes. Because of this, ITF Taekwondo is more of a realistic defence system

See my first reply. Same goes here.


ITF Taekwondo seeks self-development and spiritual improvement, while WTF Taekwondo seeks superiority over an opponent—winning.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.

ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

ITF Taekwondo is formalized, WTF Taekwondo is not..
It's better to practice ITF style sparring because quite simply it is safer and we have very few injuries as a result
WTF concentrates on the sport element of Taekwon-Do whereas ITF concentrates on all areas of self-defence. ITF is concerned with enabling people to be able to defend themselves against an attack, where WTF is more concerned with performing well in competitions. Competition is a small part of ITF ideology.

You know, I generally try to exercise a little patience and understanding as I know how much generalizing goes on between the two federations. This is the biggest bunch of bunk I have read in a long time. Please don't post comparisons on things you have limited exposure or knowledge of.

[TEA]

Great response, Eliz. You just saved me a lot of time.

[D. Palmer II]

Just thought I'd share my personal experience.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.
My WTF TKD master Binh Mai trained soldiers in his home land in the Korean war, so I'm not so sure about western values being integral to his art. He teaches his students how to hurt people or immobilize them without hurting, and does not emphasize competition. He's also an Aikido master, so he most likely abhores the very concept of competition. What he teaches is not fit for competition anyway. The techniques I learned under him are designed to cripple an opponent, not score points. Perhaps the competition aspect depends on the individual instructor, and not the style ( WTF / ITF ) ? Maybe? Could your ITF instructor be Korean while the WTF instructor, from which you draw your conjecture, is American?

One more thing.
ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

Process and results are inseperable parts like action and reaction, potential energy and kinetic energy, yin and yang.

[WMKS Shogun]

Let me start off by saying, I am biased towards ITF based TKD, though I have done a miniscule amount of training in WTF TKD. I understand where the generalizations come from, but I agree that it does not hold up all across the board. In my time training at the WTF dojang, we worked very little competition sparring, but spend considerable time on basics, cardio/endurance building workouts, forms, and self defense. This was essentially the same kind of workout I had gotten from my primary instructor (ITF based TKD) and my earlier (now retired) Karate Sensei, as well as my later Tang Soo Do instructor. Hmmmm....interesting. Same kinds of training in what is essentially 4 different styles. Basics, forms, self defense were often similar, but not the same. Each had a different emphasis on hips, weight distribution, stances, philosophies of self defense , etc.
Now, I will be honest, I still generally do not like the walking stances of the WTF, but that is because for my first several years of training I was indoctrinated that stance training should also provide a leg workout, (and it was just plain odd after doing the low karate front stances when iI first started and the slightly higher ITF walking/front stances). However, I recognize that from a self defense point of view, you are more likely to be attacked in a more natural stance and therefore, should practice being able to throw techniques from a natural stance. Before I go and say something like "WTF does not teach/use any/many hand techniques" (which I know are taught in forms and sometimes in basics) I would like to hear from a WTF stylist about how much of your training is in hand techniques. Like I said earlier, I only have a miniscule amount of training in the WTF style and we worked few hand techniques, but then again, I only trained for a summer (and was a mid-gup in ITF TKD, but away from my primary instructor that summer). The only could base a hand-techniqueless WTF on is that I have done some sparring with a buddy of mine who is a 1st Dan in WTF TKD and he did not use his hands much at all (though I know the Olympic sparring rules are really really picky about hand techniques, and he was brought up through the ranks sparring Olympic style) (the other alternative is he personally could have just been crappy with his hands or preferred his feet). My final verdict is that both have their merits, but neither is perfect. I still would be interested to know what kinds of hand strikes are learned/practiced later on. (I do not get so see or talk with my WTF 1st Dan friend, hense why I am asking you all, plus it would likely politely shut the mouths of style-centric ITF stylists who say WTF uses all kicks).

[D. Palmer II]

In my time training at the WTF dojang, we worked very little competition sparring, but spend considerable time on basics, cardio/endurance building workouts, forms, and self defense. My experience exactly.


You provide a very good point. For a long time, we trained the walking stance, and I NEVER got a leg work out. In fact, there was very little emphasis on stance training. Since I’ve been learning kung fu, I’ve been coming home from class often with my legs so sore I have to sit down very slowly. (I love it!) The stance training comprises a good 40% of class time.

Most of the techniques we learned at my dojang were actually aikido-esque or judo-esque. (My TKD master is also an aikido master and basically taught both simultaneously.)


I still generally do not like the walking stances of the WTF, but that is because for my first several years of training I was indoctrinated that stance training should also provide a leg workout,
I was not indoctrinated in the importance of low stance, low center of gravity until later, at which time I stopped practicing the long, walking stances I began learning ten years ago. However I still practice them in my hyungs.

[Eliz]

Now, I will be honest, I still generally do not like the walking stances of the WTF....

Nor do I. The first WTF school I was in did not use a walking stance. I have been in TKD for 19 years and I was first introduced to the walking stance only 8 years ago.



Before I go and say something like "WTF does not teach/use any/many hand techniques" (which I know are taught in forms and sometimes in basics) I would like to hear from a WTF stylist about how much of your training is in hand techniques.

We do a lot of hand conditioning. We do not do any Oly Sparring. It is all either point or continuous contact (hands and feet). To teach proper control on head shots - ridge hands, back firsts, etc. - we work the hands. We also work a lot of jab/fakes. We do a lot of breaking down on crosses, speed drills, etc. In all, for every kicking drill, there is a hand drill in between. First, it gives the lower body/upper body a rest period in between. But most important, hand techniques are part of the curriculum. How can you practice a fighting style without using your hands?

[rouse]

I would have to say that the students in any TKD school that don’t get a full dose of hand techniques is really getting short changed.

All of this talk about Olympic style not incorporating hand techniques into their curriculum always strikes me as a misnomer; it’s not the style per-se but the instructors range.

For Example: Yung In University most certainly teaches Olympic style TKD and there are definitely plenty of hand techniques in their curriculum. One way is by including a basic 10 motions of hand techniques that is practices like poomsae drills, different set for each grade level.

I agree with Eliz, there is no way to practice any fighting style without good hand technique being involved. The distance plays a big part in just what hand techniques are required, but there is no way to stay outside forever.

As far as the WTF/ITF question don’t be surprised if there is some “BIG NEWS” on that subject in the next couple years.

Johnnie Rouse

[TEA]

Big news as in this?


2 Taekwondo Bodies Hold Talks on Integration in Beijing 29 Nov 2006

The World Taekwondo Federation and the International Taekwondo Federation held working-level talks in Beijing, China, on Nov. 24-25, 2006, for the formation of a coordination committee to discuss integration matters of the two bodies.

At the Beijing talks, the two sides exchanged opinions to produce a final agreement on the establishment of the proposed coordination committee.

Mr. Manseek Choe, deputy secretary general of the WTF and Mr. Seok-jae Kang, director of the WTF's PR Division, represented the WTF, while Mr. Yong-son Ri, deputy secretary general of the ITF, led the ITF contingent.

For the formation of the coordination committee, delegates of the two taekwondo organizations met in Beijing on four occasions.

The presidents of the WTF and the ITF are expected to sign a mutual agreement on the establishment of the Coordination Committee for Taekwondo Integration in early December during the 15th Asian Games in Doha, Qatar. North Korean Ung Chang, member of the International
Olympic Committee, leads the ITF.

On Sept. 20, 2006, the two presidents and Dr. Jacques Rogge, president of the IOC, met at the headquarters of the IOC in Lausanne, Switzerland, where the IOC president coordinated the ongoing talks between the two taekwondo organizations. The IOC president proposed that an agreement on the integration of technical rules be reached
before any decision can be taken on administrative integration.

Maybe if they integrate, the Oly sparring rules will be changed to allow for punches to the head? :rolleyes: If I were in the ITF, I'd make that a precondition.

[MadMonk108]

Hell, I'm a Kukkiwon practitioner and I'd make that a precondition!

[rouse]

Thank's Joe:

I didn't post that because chances are good that there will end up being an impass between that group of folks( Look at their history ) but you never know!:confused:

Ko, Eui-Min will have his work cut out for him on the technical committee:eek:

I'm glad its not me.

Johnnie Rouse

[TEA]

Yeah, I'm not very optimistic about them making much progress towards unification. As you said, too much bad blood between the top dogs over the years. However, since the IOC seems to be behind this latest effort and TKD has had a somewhat rocky history with the IOC, perhaps the WTF will be more willing to negotiate than in the past. The biggest sticking points will be rules for sparring and forms - especially forms, as this was one of the biggest bones of contention all the way back to the first attempts to unify all the kwan. Since the Kukkiwon has only really just now standardized its forms, I don't see them wanting to throw them out (although I would not be too sad to see the Taeguks go away) and adopt a whole new set of forms.

[rouse]

With the exception of two of the original people, the original unification passed.
There are some chances now for a new unification effort, but just how unified that will really be is yet to be seem.

I think there are too many folks out there doing their on thing and calling it TKD, yet not affiliated with any recognized National or International organization, and I would think most of them will probably stay that way.

I whole heartedly agree that the big turning point will revolve around any common ground the technical committee’s can find.

Johnnie Rouse

[coralreefer]

For what it's worth, a few years ago, I had a conversation with my master concerning this. He is a well known Korean, and involved in many circles. He has had meetings with both the president of the ITF, and the IOC. Years ago, he told me in a conversation, that he had heard from such meetings, that some of these changes were being discussed. While he didnt specifically mention unification, this is what he did say.

He mentioned, that he would not be surprised, as being part of some discussions with such individuals, that...

The WTF will eventually allow punching to the head

Also, that the WTF competition ring, would be changed from a square, to a circle

That a jumping kick to the head, would score 3 points(in an attempt to make the match more exciting)

He said, that perhaps in the next 5 years, some of these changes may begin to take place. That conversation was 3 years ago. Whether or not they actually happen, remains to be seen. But those were some things that he said were being discussed at that time.

Todd

[TEA]

Thanks, Todd. Thats some interesting insight. I think scoring the jump kicks to the head higher than a punch or a kick would mitigate the tendency to punch to the head more than kick.

Here's what was in the Dojang Digest today on the subject.


WTF, ITF Agree on Formation of Taekwondo Integration Coordination Committee
The Seoul Times

DOHA, Qatar —- The World Taekwondo Federation and the International
Taekwondo Federation agreed on the establishment of a coordination
committee to discuss integration matters of the two taekwondo bodies
here on Dec. 2, 2006.

The agreement was signed between WTF President Chungwon Choue and ITF
President Ung Chang, the North Korean member of the International
Olympic Committee.

Under the pact, the two parties will set up the Coordination Committee
for Taekwondo Integration, which will start on simultaneous
discussions regarding the integration of technical and administrative
aspects of the two taekwondo bodies.

Both parties, however, agreed to first reach an agreement on the
integration of technical matters before any decision can be taken on
administrative integration, in respect of their initial agreement on
June 28, 2005.

The committee will consist of one co-chairman at the vice-presidential
level and three to five members, including the chairman of the
Technical Committee, from each party.

The two sides also agreed that the operations of the committee will be
decided through consultations between the two sides.

The two sides met on four occasions in Beijing, China for the
formation of the coordination committee. The first round of
working-level talks took place on June 28, 2005, with the second and
third rounds of talks on Aug. 30, 2005 and Feb. 24, 2006,
respectively. The fourth and final meeting was held on Nov. 24-25,
2006.

The integration talks between the two taekwondo organizations
restarted after the meeting among the presidents of the IOC, the WTF
and the ITF, at the IOC headquarters on June 3, 2005.

On Sept. 20, 2006, the three met again at the headquarters of the IOC,
where the IOC president coordinated the ongoing WTF-ITF talks. The IOC
President proposed that the coordination committee start
simultaneously discussions on technical and administrative aspects of
the two bodies "under the condition that an agreement should first be
reached on the subject of integration of technical rules before any
decision can be taken on administrative merger integration."

The talks on integration matters between the two taekwondo
organizations date back to January 1982, when the two sides held their
first round of talks in Vancouver, Canada. In 1980, the IOC recognized
the WTF as the sole international body governing the world's
taekwondo.

On Aug. 20, 2003, the WTF and the ITF announced a mutual agreement on
the integration matters of the two bodies during the 2003 Universiade
in Daegu, Korea, but failed to materialize because of former WTF
President Un-yong Kim's scandal.

[rouse]

The political divide between the North and South is a big factor when conversations on this subject come up.

I ask a friend of mine (former National Demonstration Team Member) and the expression on his face said a lot as to how most S. Koreans view the idea.

I see some mighty tall hurtles to cross and Their're not only the technical aspect.

Johnnie Rouse

[TEA]

The political divide between the North and South is a big factor when conversations on this subject come up.

I ask a friend of mine (former National Demonstration Team Member) and the expression on his face said a lot as to how most S. Koreans view the idea.

I see some mighty tall hurtles to cross and Their're not only the technical aspect.

Johnnie Rouse

Not to mention that the ITF itself is split into three competing camps between the DPRK, Canada/USA and Europe. Seems like the current talks are with the DPRK's ITF. If (big if) the DPRK ITF does unify with the WTF, will the other two ITF organizations follow suit, or will they remain independent?

Something else to think about, if the talks go badly, will Kim Jong-il launch a nuke at the Kukkiwon to take out the opposition? :rolleyes:

[Eliz]

I do not have a problem with TKD split between the ITF and WTF. As stated, they are two entirely different styles.

How did the IOC get involved with this one?


Something else to think about, if the talks go badly, will Kim Jong-il launch a nuke at the Kukkiwon to take out the opposition?

:laugh:

[rouse]

Something else to think about, if the talks go badly, will Kim Jong-il launch a nuke at the Kukkiwon to take out the opposition? :rolleyes:


If he does lets hope it's a dud like the last one. Maybe even a demonstration team menber would just catch it with a 540 kick, mid-air and send it right back home.

Johnnie Rouse

[TEA]

How did the IOC get involved with this one?

I'm guessing its becuase:

a. The IOC only recognizes the WTF;

b. The ITF (DPRK camp) is the govering TKD body in the DPRK; and

c. The DPRK and ROK want to field a single national team for the next Olympics.

[rouse]

That about sums it up Joe. You hit the nail on the head.

Johnnie Rouse

[TEA]

As for the history between the ITF and WTF and unification of the kwans, this article, which I posted a while back but had a hard time relocating, gives a pretty good overview, albeit a bit onesided.

The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do (http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html)