Why can't you ask?

[Kumbajah]

I guess I may be just playing devil's advocate here - But thought I'd just throw this question out.

*** Why do we put martial arts masters in a position that is beyond reproach? ***

I don't see any other profession that garners this type of "respect". You can ask even the President of the United States any question - (probably won't answer - but you can ask)

I can respect a position, accomplishments and a body of knowledge but ultimately it is still just a person. Still squats to s**t.

Some of the graces seem to boarder on cultish in my option.

[Mark Barlow]

I obviously need to change my students out for some of those mindless, brainless ones you're acquainted with. :wink2: My students ask questions all the time and the ones involved in law enforcement/military/security often try to throw monkey wrenches in the techniques I'm teaching just to guage my reaction and the effectiveness of the technique. I get quizzed on everything from my training history to when was the last time I used Jujutsu in "real life".

Is there some reason you feel confrontational to instructors as a group?

[Kumbajah]

Is there some reason you feel confrontational to instructors as a group?

Nope - Just playing devils advocate as I said. I am an assistant instructor and I enjoy questions. There was a question asked recently about a prominent GM and people jumped all over the person for asking. The basic attitude "who are you to ask these questions?"

[Mark Barlow]

''The basic attitude "who are you to ask these questions?"

That does smack of cult behavior but I've never run across that type of attitude in Jujutsu or Judo. While it's not exactly "first among equals", the camaraderie among students and instructor tends to be more casual than most Korean styles, at least in my experience.

[Erik]

Mark, you seem quite alright from your posts. I think the asker was referring to other coaches.

I've seen MA "cults" and lots of "don't ask me questions" types and it's annoying. I don't think you fall into this group, of course.

My theory is that this dynamic comes from several sources, any of which could be sufficient and several together even more so. Forgive my lack of eloquence today, please. Nothing is coming out right (including at the board meeting I just came from!)

- Any teacher in front of a class has a certain amount of authority and grandeur, of sorts. I experienced this as a university instructor - all these stary-eyed undergrads who thought I was something special whereas in different context we wouldn't notice each other.

- MAs are often about taking people who feel weak or scared and who want to feel safer and more potent. Anyone who makes himself the focal point of these feelings of empowerment becomes a priest of some sort.

- Many MAs deal in a limited domain. Judo (one of my favorites!) is takedowns and grappling, BJJ is grappling, kickboxing is just striking from standing, etc. It seems natural to me that some students would be thinking outside these domains and want to know how, say, judo would handle a kickboxer.

Also, a lot of MAs that do cover a wide range of techniques such as takedowns, jointlocks, punching, kicking, pressure-points, etc., don't have the same flow as the more sport-like MAs like BJJ or judo or kickboxing. Consequently, they don't know much about flowing from one move to the next. They seem to implicitly expect a series of techniques to go to completion without being interrupted and forced to change.

- I think many instructors are not used to thinking outside of their styles. Were they so, it would be easier to respond to questions like "what if he does this while I'm doing that?" by saying, "then you change your technique and try something else." Or for the grappler, "what if he strikes like this while we're trying to tie them up?" which is a legitimate question.

Such questions also make an instructor feel awfully naked and inadequate when they are asked such a thing while trying to address a crowd of people and teach them to fight without getting so amped up that they start hurting each other in class.

My BJJ coach has an answer for such questions. It's either "then you do this" or "come over here and try it with me."

I respect coaches who can admit that they don't know or that the right response is to hit the other guy faster and harder and that the techniques rarely look this clean in the real world, that the student should expect messiness and chaos, not just beautiful, fluid, flowing art.

[Patrick Hayes]

''The basic attitude "who are you to ask these questions?"

That does smack of cult behavior but I've never run across that type of attitude in Jujutsu or Judo. While it's not exactly "first among equals", the camaraderie among students and instructor tends to be more casual than most Korean styles, at least in my experience.
This has been my experience as well. Jujutsu and Judo, as well as Aikido, seem to lend themselves well to a particular blend of casualness and discipline. The only exception I've seen to this was one Daito-ryu dojo I visited, but it was the black belts who seemed offended by questions, not the instructor.

[Erik]

One more thing - it's the student's responsibility to ask these questions. In life, it's the student's responsibility to fight, not the class's. As such, the student must be critical of what he is learning as he will ultimately be alone in applying it.

He must understand and be responsible for himself.

A competent coach must be ready to accept and answer these questions. If he cannot, then it seems that he is not very secure in his skills, either as a fighter or as an instructor.

It is only through challenging ideas that they stay honest and real. Otherwise, without checking, it's like playing telephone (that game where people sit in a circle and whisper around a message that invariably gets twisted unrecognizably by the end of the circle.) Then we get some idiot who believes that this distorted body of knowledge and skills is some Ancient Sacred Truth.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Erik,
I couldn't of said it better myself..good post...
Michael Tomlinson

[Eliz]

I agree with Patrick's comment about the black belts. In my experience, the most "holier than thou" attitudes seem to come from the lower ranked dans. This really is not an ALWAYS statement. In Hapkido, I am a lower ranked Dan. :D

[Mark Barlow]

Erik,

Excellent post!

I often tell students that class is like a buffet and it's up to them to fill their plates. If they leave with empty bellies (or heads, as the case may be) it ain't my fault. My sensei told us that it was our duty to wring as much info out of him as we could and urged everyone to visit other dojo and study books and video in order to know which questions to ask.

Mark

[wab25]

Here is a bizare analogy, that makes sense to me any way.

I took a Lindyhop workshop from Frankie Manning. For those of you who don't know, Frankie invented swing/lindyhop at the Savoy ballroom and made it famous. He is the skinny black guy in those old black and white movies, throwing the girls up in the air and doing all sorts of crazy stuff with them. Anyway, taking a Lindy workshop from Frankie is about like taking a Judo class from Kano. Anyway, Frankie was teaching a very common move, a texas tommy. Everybody there knew texas tommy. The problem was that Frankie was teaching the hand change on step 3 and 4 when everyone else knows that it happens on 4 and 5. (its an 8 count dance) One guy, stopped the whole class to correct Frankie. When Frankie wouldn't budge, the guy went on to show how it works better on 4 and 5, and how it is easier to do and wanted Frankie to prove that it was better on 3 and 4 instead of on 4 and 5. At this point, Frankie just moved on, this guy did it his own way, and Frankie moved on with the lesson. As it turns out, Frankie taught a move to follow the texas tommy. This move used all of counts 4 through 8. If you did the hand change on 4 and 5, there is no way you would have time for this second move. We all got both moves. The guy who insisted on changing hands correctly, had a very hard time with the second move.

So, bringing this back to martial arts.... Neither way to do the texas tommy was right and neither was wrong. They were simply different. Each worked better in a particular situation. Many times we get taught moves, from a certain set up, where people react a certain way. If the situation is slightly different, the end result may be very different. Many times, doing something this way, may not make sense, till we see whats coming up next. When we find out what it leads up too, it may make perfect sense.

Questions are great. You can learn a lot from asking them, and I would never suggest that you don't ask them. But, be careful on judging the response. I think that too many times we get caught up in our "knowlege of fighting" and think we know better. Especially, if we can prove we are right in a sparring/sporting environment.

I think that the more experienced the teacher is, the more slack I cut him. Meaning, I will simply do what he asks, and trust that he has reasons which I will eventually understand. I know this sounds like the cult worship thing, but its not. See, if I never get a better understanding of what I am doing, if the reasons don't start to present themselves, then I start going to that class a lot less frequently. I go to classes where things do make sense. We translate the word "sensei" to mean "one who has gone before." Sensei's job then, is to guide us down the path to becoming a martial artist. Since they have been down the path before, they know the way better. When a sensei gets lost, I stop following them. But, when a sensei can consistantly get where he said he was going to go, I trust him more. As this trust develops, I will not worry quite so much about where he is leading, because I trust that he knows where he is going. I still ask questions, a lot of them actually. But I also have developed a certain sense of trust. I accept his answer, even if it is "wait and see."

[tkdcanada]

*** Why do we put martial arts masters in a position that is beyond reproach? ***

I don't see any other profession that garners this type of "respect". You can ask even the President of the United States any question - (probably won't answer - but you can ask)

I can respect a position, accomplishments and a body of knowledge but ultimately it is still just a person. Still squats to s**t.

Some of the graces seem to boarder on cultish in my option.

This is certainly an irritation of mine, that I've had to come to terms with. I have often been given the impression that many things shouldn't be questioned out of 'respect' and I think it's a load of you know what. As Erik said, "it's the student's responsibility to him/herself to ask questions and understand, and it's the instructor's responsibility to patiently respond" without being defensive and raising issues of 'respect.' Of course questions should be asked in a respectful manner, but too often, very legitimate questions are taken as a challenge to the knowledge and authority of the instructor. To me that just deomonstrates insecurity on the instructor's part and a need for control. Personally, I see questioning as a demonstration of mental processing and an opportunity to help a person learn and understand better.

[American HKD]

Nope - Just playing devils advocate as I said. I am an assistant instructor and I enjoy questions. There was a question asked recently about a prominent GM and people jumped all over the person for asking. The basic attitude "who are you to ask these questions?"

Greetings

I think Brian's refering to me so I'll be glad to respond.

I think it's great to ask questions, I encourage it with all my students or anyone else interested enough to ask. I think what some of you are saying is out of context to my response to one poster.

With that being said there are some things that are simply none of someone elses business, I don't think anyone has to be a rocket sciencist to know that.

Also some people have earned the respect and do have the status that they should be approached in an appropriate manor. Teachers, School principle, Corporate heads, President, Mayor, Community leader, and any respectable person.

With-in context! I don't know anyone who just goes up to someone of any status or even a stranger and asks about personal issues, so on and so forth, to me it's plain rude.

We don't walk up to stranger and say why did you split up with your wife, or how much money do you make, etc.

Lastly I forgot to mention for me it's not what you ask but how you ask it, that's what I notice.

:bow:

[Tony Dismukes]

I've seen instructors who were casual about rank and questions, and ones who were little wannabe dictators. As a generalization, those who had the most ability and knowledge were most open and casual about it. Renzo Gracie brushes aside titles like "sensei" and "master". "My name's just Renzo," he says. In contrast, I've had 1st degree black belts in tae kwon do insist that I owe them unquestioning respect because of their rank.

There are doubtless some "masters" who insist they are beyond reproach, but I would be extra-skeptical of their actual abilities based on their attitude. Most of the best martial artists I've met are constantly learning, even from their juniors.

Of course, as wab25 points out, there is a time and place for questions. If the teacher is trying to teach lesson "A" and you disrupt the class with an endless series of "what-ifs" that are more properly addressed in lessons "C", "Q", and "Z", then you really aren't helping the learning experience.

[Erik]

Good post, William. That made good sense.

I would have suggested to that teacher, though, to simply explain that there is more coming to this specific sequence and that doing it such-and-such a way sets that up. Then I would have shown the sequence, let the class water at the mouth a little in anticipation, and kept up with the part they were doing.

Its also incumbant upon the students to question when they question, as opposed to challenge. There's a difference and if we want a healthy relationship with our coach, we should do our part to try to get information transferring between us as opposed to making the other guy wrong.

[Kumbajah]

Not just you Stuart it was the whole thread I found a little off putting.


"Also some people have earned the respect and do have the status that they should be approached in an appropriate manor. Teachers, School principle, Corporate heads, President, Mayor, Community leader, and any respectable person."

What is a appropriate manor? Hello my name is x and I would like to know y.

What is inappropriate about a question? It was questions about a public entity and public figures in that public entity.

You can ask me any question - I may not respond or respond in a way that doesn't answer the question. But there is nothing wrong with the question in itself.

We are supposedly studying a way, a "DO". A thing that entails some commitment. So for someone to ask some questions -even if they are tough questions shows intelligence - "hmmm - before I commit to x number of years studying this "do" maybe I'd like to know more about it"
So asking the leader of that "way" what am I getting into doesn't strike me as rude but prudent.

Maybe I'm Just too American and believe in the equality of all people.

[wab25]

I would have suggested to that teacher, though, to simply explain that there is more coming to this specific sequence and that doing it such-and-such a way sets that up. Then I would have shown the sequence, let the class water at the mouth a little in anticipation, and kept up with the part they were doing.

Not to get too far off..... He had shown the whole sequence a few times, before he began breaking it down. And in all fairness to him, I have seen other teachers fail to get their message across as quickly, to as many people as he did. He lost one, bull headed student, out of the 150 that were there. Had this guy swallowed his pride, he would have learned as well. The 149 of us that humbled ourselves enough to learn from him, learned a very lengthy, very advanced, sequence that would have taken months, if not years to learn, in one afternoon, due to this guy's communication abilities.


Its also incumbant upon the students to question when they question, as opposed to challenge. There's a difference and if we want a healthy relationship with our coach, we should do our part to try to get information transferring between us as opposed to making the other guy wrong.

This is so true. The teacher and student relationship requires active participation of both. It is the teachers responsibility to gain the trust of the student. It is the students responsibility to gain the trust of the teacher. It is the students responsibility to learn and the teachers responsibility to teach. Both must work to find the best means of communication, from teacher to student and from student to teacher. The hardest part for both sides is realizing that even though the teacher is teaching, he is still learning as well. Both are moving down the same path together, helping each other. Maintaining a flow of infomation, is the responsibility of both parties.

[American HKD]

Not just you Stuart it was the whole thread I found a little off putting.


"Also some people have earned the respect and do have the status that they should be approached in an appropriate manor. Teachers, School principle, Corporate heads, President, Mayor, Community leader, and any respectable person."

What is a appropriate manor? Hello my name is x and I would like to know y.

What is inappropriate about a question? It was questions about a public entity and public figures in that public entity.

You can ask me any question - I may not respond or respond in a way that doesn't answer the question. But there is nothing wrong with the question in itself.

We are supposedly studying a way, a "DO". A thing that entails some commitment. So for someone to ask some questions -even if they are tough questions shows intelligence - "hmmm - before I commit to x number of years studying this "do" maybe I'd like to know more about it"
So asking the leader of that "way" what am I getting into doesn't strike me as rude but prudent.

Maybe I'm Just too American and believe in the equality of all people.

Greetings,

Maybe I over reacted at the time I felt the way a couple of the questions asked were inapropriate.

Your right everyones equal as human beings and have should have the same basic rights.

From there certain things change it's the way of the world some people are high status and some arn't. I don't see the problem with that it's always been and always will.

I don't think everyone can possibily see themselves equal to all under varying circumstances.

You call you parents mom and dad not Bill and Mary, or some people Mr. or President or Senetor, or Father or Rabbi.

Were not all on a level playing field at all times.

[Patrick Hayes]

"All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others."
-- George Orwell

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

[TonyU]

Coincidently myself and some other seniors with our karate sensei were recently discussing the same subject.
We want and support questions, but felt that students are not asking as much. We've noticed that the students that do not ask question don't fare as well in the performance of their techniques.
Granted there are some techniques that you can explain untill your blue in the face and are not goint get the feel untill you work it repetitiously.
We're not also talking about the constant "waht if's" questions that you get oncve in a while from that one annoying student, but legitemate questions.
When I use to teach I felt my training has improved from questions being asked. It made sure I knew my material and made me think for myself..

[Kumbajah]

I am not against showing respect for a office or position. I wouldn't think of addressing a priest with out adding Father before his name or addressing the president other than Mr. President.

What I am reacting to is the cult of personality. In the case of a MA leader I do believe in showing respect for their knowledge and dedication to the art. We all humble our selves so that we may learn from them. They know more than I and have been doing a heck of a lot longer than me. But that is as far as I believe the respect needs to go. Just because someone excels in one field doesn't give them carte blanche in all realms. There are some Hapkido offshoots that have creative lineages. Rational people jump all over it. Those who are in the system "true believers" sometimes play the " disrespectful " card when people question the validity of their claims. It all about perspective. It seems to be ok to question others just not my GM. Certain leeways are given because of their position.

My perspective is at a base level we are all equal and no one is above scrutiny. As accomplished as anyone is we are all fallible human beings. To allow one person the leeways sets a precedent and a culture of misinformation. It was ok for this person to blur the truth or be cryptic about certain things so now I'm in that position I should be afforded the same leeways. It is this mode of thinking that gave us things like the "old boys club" , clergy sex scandals, Enron and Haliburton.

When it comes to learning technique - my opinion do it the way you are taught and if you need clarification - ask. This was once also considered disrespectful but in the western scientific model of learning it is the way to make progress.

[American HKD]

I am not against showing respect for a office or position. I wouldn't think of addressing a priest with out adding Father before his name or addressing the president other than Mr. President.

What I am reacting to is the cult of personality. In the case of a MA leader I do believe in showing respect for their knowledge and dedication to the art. We all humble our selves so that we may learn from them. They know more than I and have been doing a heck of a lot longer than me. But that is as far as I believe the respect needs to go. Just because someone excels in one field doesn't give them carte blanche in all realms. There are some Hapkido offshoots that have creative lineages. Rational people jump all over it. Those who are in the system "true believers" sometimes play the " disrespectful " card when people question the validity of their claims. It all about perspective. It seems to be ok to question others just not my GM. Certain leeways are given because of their position.

My perspective is at a base level we are all equal and no one is above scrutiny. As accomplished as anyone is we are all fallible human beings. To allow one person the leeways sets a precedent and a culture of misinformation. It was ok for this person to blur the truth or be cryptic about certain things so now I'm in that position I should be afforded the same leeways. It is this mode of thinking that gave us things like the "old boys club" , clergy sex scandals, Enron and Haliburton.

When it comes to learning technique - my opinion do it the way you are taught and if you need clarification - ask. This was once also considered disrespectful but in the western scientific model of learning it is the way to make progress.

Greetings

I agree with most of what you said.

I guess the questions is, what's appropriate to ask whom, how to ask, when to ask, and what crosses the line?

In Korean tradition my master always taught that there are social boundries.

Peers are around the same age and social status, then you have little brothers or sisters, older brothers or sisters, Masters, Elders, and the social limits that separate them.

I'm personally very comfortable with this kind of social boundries.

[Patrick Hayes]

There isn't really any cut-and-dried answer to this question. It just depends on what kind of relationship you have with your sensei. I lived with my two jujutsu sensei for awhile, they were like parents to me, so I never felt awkward taling to them about anything (off the mat, of course). When I train with new sensei, I'm much more deferential to them, but no more so than I would be with anyone I don't know well and whose house I am a guest in. When I was teaching, most of my students were around my own age or slightly older, so I kept our relationship very casual (I was more comfortable being addressed as Sempai then Sensei, when I was addressed by a title at all).

Not every sensei wants to be a father-figure or a buddy to their students, and that's just as well. There can be a professional aloofness/distance between teacher and student, but if the instructor is so unapproachable that the students are afraid to talk to them or ask them questions, then I wonder how well their students are actually able to learn.

My two cents, anyway.

[Erik]

Peers are around the same age and social status, then you have little brothers or sisters, older brothers or sisters, Masters, Elders, and the social limits that separate them.These come from Confucious. He described seven specific relationships. It works alright if everyone knows his/her place. If not, then confusion.

[American HKD]

[QUOTE=Erik]These come from Confucious. He described seven specific relationships. It works alright if everyone knows his/her place. If not, then confusion.[/QUOTE=]

Dear Erik

I guess your right Americans or westerners are not exposed to these concepts.

I use the and they seem to work for me even if the other guy doesn't know them.

Still a lot of trad MA do teach the ideas to the students so it should be fairly well known with Trad Ma circles.

I dont' think the new systems developed by westerners teach them.

[Erik]

Most of the Western systems have Western culture. It only makes sense like that, right?

As they are more used to it, people seem to grasp more intuitively their relationship with their coach than with, say, a sensei, sifu, guru, or whatever.

But these systems are not necessarily new - Greco-Roman wrestling, boxing, etc., have been around for over 2,000 years, far longer than many Asian systems. Western fencing for over 1,000 years (though its form has changed in the past 150 years, so I guess it's no older than judo, if you look at it that way).

[Kumbajah]

This has strayed from what originally sparked it - but in the general realm

I guess that is where I differ in my outlook. I guess I'm a product of modern American culture. I am not trying to replicate Confucian Social structure. The idea of social status sticks in my craw. I don't think feudalism should make a comeback either.

I have learned things from people much younger than me and I have also learned things from people that were on society's fringes. All valuable information.
I have been corrected by people younger than me and a position lower than me in the same regard I have corrected those older and a position higher than me. (delicately granted) but both were warranted.

We have all met people that are not as mature as their chronicle age or position. Just because they hold some perceived status doesn't warrant respect imo. So I think that respect must be earned and warranted not given blindly. In the same regard every human being is entitled to a level of respect. We are all riding on the same rock hurling through space :)

This is again imo one of the valuable lessons in the MAs self discipline. Discipline yourself or eventually someone will do it for you. No one is above a lesson if they stray from the path.

[Jumper53]

When students meet a powerfull MA Master many have a natural fear of questioning their teaching, partially born of a fear of the Master. I am sure most Masters welcome questions as my instructor does, but the students have the impression that it would be rude to ask. A Master should have an answer for almost every question, so why would they discourage them.

If a student has a fear of offending their Master and it is never broken by the time they are Black Belt it is likely that they will tell junior students that questioning anything is wrong. But hopefully most students get rid of this fear within the first couple of belts.

The only time it would be improper to ask a question challenging a technique is when the instructor is in front of the whole class. Mostly because it can disrupt the flow of the lesson, and the answer may be a more advanced concept than some of the students are ready for. Save your questions for when you have your instructors direct attention.

I agree with what American HKD was saying about the "appropriate way" to ask a question but I think he was misunderstood. When asking a Master about anything you should use GOOD MANERS. Remember your please and thankyou's and use his/her title and name. It is not that you should treat a Master special because of his Rank, you should treat anyone the same way.

Confucious ideals are that you should treat anyone of higher age, knowledge, and authority with EXTRA GOOD MANERS, and use more polite language when talking to them. They should also treat you with good maners... just not EXTRA good maners. But with the Western idea of equality, you should treat everyone with the same good maners. So when you ask a MA Master a question about their technique, use the same good maners you would use if you asked your Doctor about your blood pressure, and the same ay you would ask a small child to pass the salt at a family dinner.

:bow:

[American HKD]

When students meet a powerfull MA Master many have a natural fear of questioning their teaching, partially born of a fear of the Master. I am sure most Masters welcome questions as my instructor does, but the students have the impression that it would be rude to ask. A Master should have an answer for almost every question, so why would they discourage them.

If a student has a fear of offending their Master and it is never broken by the time they are Black Belt it is likely that they will tell junior students that questioning anything is wrong. But hopefully most students get rid of this fear within the first couple of belts.

The only time it would be improper to ask a question challenging a technique is when the instructor is in front of the whole class. Mostly because it can disrupt the flow of the lesson, and the answer may be a more advanced concept than some of the students are ready for. Save your questions for when you have your instructors direct attention.

I agree with what American HKD was saying about the "appropriate way" to ask a question but I think he was misunderstood. When asking a Master about anything you should use GOOD MANERS. Remember your please and thankyou's and use his/her title and name. It is not that you should treat a Master special because of his Rank, you should treat anyone the same way.

Thank You that's what I was trying to get across!

Confucious ideals are that you should treat anyone of higher age, knowledge, and authority with EXTRA GOOD MANERS, and use more polite language when talking to them. They should also treat you with good maners... just not EXTRA good maners. But with the Western idea of equality, you should treat everyone with the same good maners. So when you ask a MA Master a question about their technique, use the same good maners you would use if you asked your Doctor about your blood pressure, and the same ay you would ask a small child to pass the salt at a family dinner.

You got it IMO.

:bow:

Greetings,

[dao]

In MA, the only time I felt stupid after asking a a question was when I asked about BJJ promoltion protocols which are so informal that there basically are none. I asked because I didn't want to unintentionally offend anyone because of ignorance. But, in general I'd reiterate that asking questions is a good thing and most insturctors appreciate it if you do respectfully but, I'd also add that you have to ask at the right time - which I guess is part of being respectful.

Timing is everything. For example asking lots of questions in front of the class about the instructors fee schedule or the instructors personal life during the warm-ups or while he/she is demonstrating a technique is probably a REALLY bad idea while asking about the fee structure privately before class or after class is dismissed is a good idea. For technical questions about how to do a technique, the only bad time I can think of to ask is during a test be it your own or someone else's.