Kongo Zen

[RickMatz]

I am quite familiar with Rinzai and Soto Zen practice. What dintinguishes Kongo Zen practice? Is Kongo Zen practiced outside of Shorin Ji Kempo?

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hi Rick

I'm not sure why everyone has been so shy about answering your question :o , perhaps they feel they may not have the skills needed to put EVERYTHING into words. But I think maybe we can start off with a basic answer, then if more detail is needed there can be more posts (from the people who know more about the subject).

I DON'T know about "Rinzai and Soto Zen practice", so I'll just say what I know, to get the ball rolling.

In Shorinji Kempo, we perform Zazen meditation for a few minutes during each training session. This is primarily as an exercise in breathing control and "emptying the mind", without any attempt to answer the questions of the universe... ;) . We learn the principles of Buddhism, starting with Gautama Siddarta's enlightenment, the 4 Noble Truths, etc. These are explained in short lectures during class, to help introduce the teachings of Kaiso (SO Doshin), our Founder.

Kongo Zen teaches of a gradual improvement of the self and others in the "here and now", by developing mind and body together. "Living half for yourself and half for others" is one of the key phrases. The hard physical exercises in class will benefit the Kenshi, but also make him/her a more useful member of their own society. By teaching ethical and moral values in class, Kaiso found he could encourage people to be stronger people, kinder, more reliable and trustworthy. In this way he hoped to help rebuild the community he found "in chaos" on his return to Japan after WW2.

So that's a general intro, the like of which can be found on many local club websites. If that has answered any of your question, great! If not, ask some more and we'll try to oblige.

[The Dude]

I dont know as much as I would want about Kongo Zen or Zen in general but I will try to add to Davids answer since I think this a really interesting subject.

To my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) in Soto Zen meditation you try to calm your mind and let go of all thoughts. Enlightenment is considererd to be reached in small increments rather than as a "big bang" which is the Rinzai Zen take on enlightenment. In Rinzai Zen meditation you meditate over a certain koan or subject. By trying to find the answer to a koan that can not be answered be using the logical intellect you will eventually abandon all attempts to try to find an explanation with the logical part of the intellect and you will be able to see the true state of things. Eventually you will reach Enlightenment.

Kongo Zen leans more towards the Soto Zen. In meditation we try to empty the mind, we do not use koans. And I think that Kongo Zen teaches us to not be too concerned with enlightenment. Kongo Zen is also very practical, we are supposed to act, not just think.

I dont think Kongo Zen is practiced outside of ShorinjiKempo.



Disclaimer: My understanding of Zen is only limited and I might very well have misunderstood some things. If so please enlighten me :)

[Jeff C.]

Do you try to "empty" the mind, or "relax" the mind?

I know certain sects consider a concious effort to "empty" the mind as being opposite to actual "sitting" - if you have to force yourself to have a "natural mind," it is not natural because of the nature of your forceful sitting.

The Rinzai method seems to use the apparent paradox of koan to implode the mind against itself by pondering an apparently unsolvable dilema by using normal conventional though processes - an impossible task, thus resulting in implosion and a direct way to "seeing reality as it really is." Sitting calmly with a relaxed mind can achieve the same result for some.

Not trying to muddy the waters; I am fascinated with this topic!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Louie Dickens]

I think it is important to understand that just because we don't know much about it or teach it, it doesn't mean that it isn't all there. Kongo Zen is bigger than Shorinji Kempo, it encompasses kempo. Shorinji is just the way, the path for our Kongo Zen, or at least this is what I understand from what I was taught at hombu. The act of sitting, I believe, is for enlightenment. That is a very important part of our practice. Sitting for enlightnement. Suzuki sensei was telling us about meditation in the old days at Hombu Do-in in Tadotsu. They were supposed to meditate for the length of one of those inscense burners, about 15-20 minutes. Now daily ponderings on the nature of self, and perspective, and the universe for 15 minutes would lead to huge changes in understanding of self and behaviour (I think) but this is what they would do. Break the top off, and stick it really deep into the sand, so that they would only meditate for a few minutes. During this they also said the prayers, so by the time they started being aware, it was almost time up!

I don't think that the current length of time was what Kaiso intended, but hey, things change. The sitting in Kempo is only a small part or the path to enlightenment, or ningenkansei, or jikokakuritsu, the perfect human, living in utopia. The practice of sk techniques teaches kenzenichinyo (body and mind are one, you are not your body, nor your mind) , rikiaifuni (love and intellect/strength go hand in hand), fusatsukatsujin (helping others not hurting with the techniques), and so on. All of the principles reflect the universal truths of balance/harmony, ect...

Enlightenment is the only true goal (all men having enlightenment=utopia), and I believe that it is possible for every single one of us, and that truly, it is our true purpose in life. But that's just me ;) Understanding what enlightenment is about has given me much greater understanding of the role of sk and its teachings, it has changed my technique drastically as well.

This is one of the sites that really changed my life forever.

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/ZenEnlighten01.html

No I am not a zen master or enlightened at all, but reading and sitting has really helped my diminish the negative aspects of my life.

When I was at busen, they didn't teach us ANYTHING (pretty much) about enlightenment or how to sit, what to do with the mind. Kawashima sensei says you can review your day, or plan, but I do not agree. As far as I can understand, we are supposed to be aware, aware of our breathing and aware of our thoughts, coming and going, with the object of not becoming the thoughts, just watching them. Once concentration is developed, I think you contemplate Koans, or just comtemplate the nature of self. Who am I? Who am I? I tell you that after 20 minutes of this, it is really interesting. Of course I cannot explain it in words, but looking at yourself...what am I? is more like that.

Anyways, once we see that there is no "I" and that the universe has been perfect all along, and that we are all of one (dharma) is when we gain enlightenment, and break out of the loop of rebirths. There is a flash or whatever, profound everlasting peace and understanding. It is really interesting how everybody's experience is more or less the same, with the same understanding. I seriously cannot understand why everybody is not all over this enlightenment thing, science, tv, everybody. But that is just me. ;)

[Louie Dickens]

And, you don't have to know anything about enlightenment to gain enlightenment. Is not something logical, the nature of self. Maybe that is why we don't have to know about it! If we truly practiced the things we say in the prayers with our hearts, yeah totally we would be enlightened. I mean, I think that is what living half for yourself and half for others truly means. Realizing that we are inseperable, as one, all one family. Yeah I know this is like new age stuff.

But for me at least it has really helped me to understand what enlightenment and zen is really about. I am not the time to just blindly put my heart into something, so for me, it really helps me to understand the process and goal a bit. Now I love sk more than ever.

[Jeff C.]

Louie, what you describe is "following the breath" (I think that is the proper term) of the Rinzai school - done prior to beginning koan training. Did So Doshin follow the Rinzai method at one time?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Tripitaka of AA]

The topic is interesting, but can lead to disappointment for some. I met people who were very turned on by the thought of Zazen meditation, but found its place in the Shorinji Kempo world to be less than they had expected.

For the most part, as Louie described, even at the Hombu (headquarters), the emphasis is on Zazen as a "Quick Wash", a mind cleanser in preparation for the next part of training. People who are fixated on Zazen as the "key to the locked cabinet of Universal Truth", can be feel let down by this... but it all fits with Kaiso's pragmatic approach to Life. Get on with it! Fix it! Don't just sit there waiting for it to happen!

[tracethebass]

It is difficult to fit zazen into a normal training session, certainly in Bournemouth, our sessions only lasting an hour and a half, we are pretty pushed for time. Sensei does emphasise the importance of meditation and the need to pursue in your own time. I try to do some Kempo practice everyday, in between my other commitments (a toddler and a new baby) and regard this as a form of meditation. It certainly sorts my head out and hopefully makes me a bit more chilled. Finding the time to do more than this ie. actual Zazen seems quite daunting, but the benefits according to Louie sound quite attractive.
Louie Dickens writes:
Understanding what enlightenment is about has given me much greater understanding of the role of sk and its teachings, it has changed my technique drastically as well.

Can you elaborate on how it has impacted on your techniques? Do you have to sit to attain enlightenment?

Good discussions on here at the moment, I'm not missing EBudo quite so much
Regards Tracey

[Louie Dickens]

Well, I think the breath method is also used in the beginning to build concentration. Buddhists also concentrate on different things at different sessions, like building love, compassion, empathy. Other guys say, just ask the question "Who am I?" So yeah, lots of paths lead to the top of the mountain.
I mentioned the breath as a way lots of people use in the beginning, you can use your pulse whatever. It is something to keep you in the present moment. Your mind finds it difficult to play and be aware of the breath at the same time. Koans and stuff are probably good, but again, its hard to concentrate on a koan when you can't even stop to think about it. Or not think.

So no I don't think I have read about these specific techniques in the Kyohan or from what Kaiso wrote, although I guess he knew most of this stuff anyways. But it is all the same in essence to me, zazen.

Or kodozen (movement zen, did I make that up, I don't think so?)

From what I understand, you don't have to sit to attain enlightenment. Lots of people have experience enlightenment through different means, like praying, getting on the bus, almost dying, whatever. Enlightenment is just seeing yourself for what you are, part of the universe, not separate. So, it can be in any situation.

A couple of ways it has affected my technique. Well, getting rid of the ego helps in so many ways. I have been able to open my eyes ears and mind to people who I would have thought "bad", and gained lots of insight. Most of the stuff I talk about is all connected and whatnot, so it is hard to link specifically enlightenment to technique, but...
You can get enlightenment from technique! Neato! Read stuff by Ueshiba, he talks about it. There are different levels of enlightenment, and he had two spiritual experiences.

The nature of my technique has changed. I am trying to stop doing it to be cool, or get girls, or whatever, and truly practice without any desire. Ideally my only desire is to have no desire in my technique. Practically, this means being aware of when your emotions come into play, and you try to do a technique on someone, rather than perform a technique together. You catch yourself when you are punching someone, rather than acting as an appropriate kosha/foil/partner. Lot's about the intention behind the movement, but it reflects directly. You practice slower, you get better every class, because the teamwork helps so much, and you become more aware or your breathing, body weight, muscle, because of your practice from zazen, awareness.

It also helps when I am having a 'bad' day or doing 'bad' technique. Understanding enlightenment helps me truly understand that there are no bad days. Positive outlook.

Because in enlightenment you look for peace and THE answer within, in practice you look at yourself and your movements, your form. You quit blaming the partner, and try to find out the reason it is 'not working' within yourself.

I dunno, did I answer the question at all? It is all connected, and part of it all (dharma) so yes, hard to talk about and logically understand.

[David Dunn]

I stand to be corrected in this.

Soto Zen was brought to Japan by Dogen Zenji. He was interesed in self-discipline, and making your life through your own efforts. He wrote a book for the cooks in his monastery, explaining how to approach their cooking. It is a metaphor for life: you need to cook your life by selecting the right ingredients and preparing them properly according to a plan. (Look up Dogen Zenji, or Tenzo Kyokun on google). In other words, work is the key. He taught that zazen is the correct way to enlightenment, because we already have Buddha nature, we only need to sit quietly to realise it.

Rinzai Zen is the 'enlightenment in a flash' school, that uses Koans. The idea is that by contemplating illogical ideas you can realise the nature of everything.

Kongo Zen is closer to Soto than it is to Rinzai. Incremental improvement is the method (zenzen shugaku), and self-discipline in daily life (samu etc). Enlightenment is something in the distance. It is more important to plan your life day by day, to do what needs to be done, to make yourself into a particular type of person: i.e. work. Zazen is a small part. The techniques are as Louie says, moving zen. Same goes for samu.

Mizuno Sensei reports that Kaiso used to tell the story of a monk who sat in zazen for many years, and became disillusioned. He left the monastery, and as he was walking away he saw a leaf falling, and got enlightenment. "So what? Who has he helped?" This is the point of Kongo Zen. It is a unique form of zen, because it looks not only inward, to the individual's enlightenment, but it also looks outwards. The 'particular type of person' is someone who is self-confident and reliable. It is not just a selfish pursuit, but aims to improve the lives of other people around you. "Half for yourself and half for others" is a summary of the two motivations: jiko kakuritsu (self-establishment), jita kyoraku (enjoying things with other people). Again, as Louie alludes, this is based on us all being offshoots of Dharma. Suzuki Sensei gave a lecture at Kyoto in 1997, where he said that being sensitive to yourself is the beginning of understanding Dharma, and to complete it, you need to be sensitive to other people.

I don't know if these have any precedents in Soto or Rinzai Zen. Sometimes when we look for the 'zen' of Kongo Zen, we overlook this central tenet of Kaiso's thought. It is a humanist and practical philosophy. All you need to do is train properly, and with right attitude. All this discussion about the deep meanings is not necessary. Mizuno Sensei says the same thing as Kawashima: plan your life, don't complain that other people or circumstances are to blame. Just keep training in the kihon, hokei, randori and embu :)

[Louie Dickens]

Hey gang,
I agree that in its original form, you didn't really need all the deep talk. From what I understand, it is because of the situation Kaiso felt when he started. Many of us are familiar with the story about how when he first came back, he faced dire times. At first he tried only talking, but after a few classes, people would stop coming. I think that the reason for this was because in those times, people were busy with the basic survival needs. They didn't have the luxury to talk philosophy, whatever. They wanted something they could use now. Then Kaiso has the dream about the monk "hey follow my way" and decides to teach Kempo, with the philosophy. Because the people were not looking for spiritual guidance, but rather moves they could learn in a week to beat up gangsters or get tough, I think there is a strong emphasis on the action, not thinking. It is true, Kaiso talks a lot in howa about useless monks who help nobody when they meditate. However, things change. Near the end, all Kaiso talked about was "genten ni kaeru" return to the origin/source. He always talked about the same thing, how and why he started sk, and the essence. He kept saying "there's not enough time, not enough time" near the end, and even when he was dying, he went up to speak, saying the same thing. Maybe he thought they were not thinking enough?

I think that today, people are kind of different. We have material weath, more than we need. Rotting, I think. We don't need martial arts for self-defence, we are looking for health, mental and physical. Tired with the empty TV (survivor, jerry springer, and all of that other fake stuff), I think people are looking for substance. People are pretty smart these days, and I for one am totally interested in the subject, and I think others, too. And I think first you have to understand the principles, then forget about them and move towards satori. This may also help with motivation, knowing the why and the how of what we are doing.

Ummm....

That was a great read David. Karate...who knew? ;)

[tracethebass]

I dunno, did I answer the question at all? It is all connected, and part of it all (dharma) so yes, hard to talk about and logically understand.
Yes Louie, I think I understand.

I prefer Mizuno Sensei's take on things rather then the sitting and waiting approach, ascetism sounds boring :wink2: Actually it sounds like a surefire route to depression. Life is meant to be lived and we need to interact with others to remain healthy, and also if we are to make a difference
Regards Tracey

[David Dunn]

Tracey, are the two things mutually exclusive? "Shugyo" is sometimes translated as 'ascetic training'. I think samu is the epitome of asceticism. You clean somewhere that is already clean? Must have some kind of deeper meaning. As far as I understand it, doing things that aren't for your own satisfaction is ascetic. At risk of sounding like a geek, the etymology of 'ascetic' is the Greek word for work or labour. I think shugyo is about labouring hard to change things.

Of course if you go and live on a mountain I'd agree with you :)

[David Dunn]

I knew somewhere on my bookcase were Kaiso's words on the subject. Maybe Kyohan has more, but anyway:



In the light of the close connection in earlier times between kempo and Zen, it seems strange that the self-defense art was not introduced to Japan with the religious philosophy. This did not happen because, after Chinese Zen split into northern and southern schools, doctrinal differences arose. The schism took place during the time of the fifth successor of Bodhidharma, Konin; and following it, the southern schoool, the line that later entered Japan, taught that all men are born with a Buddha nature and can therefore reach enlightenment intuitively, without the benefit of the gradual process of ascetic training. For this reason, the southern school did not recognize kempo as a necessary technique to the attainment of a higher level of insight.

Modern Shorinji Kempo is the work of Doshin So, who before the Second World War traveled in China and studied the scattered remnants of Chinese kempo. In Peking, Doshin So studied under Wen-Laoshi, the head of the North Shorinji Ihermen-thuen (a school whose techniques center on embu)

From What is Shorinji Kempo, Doshin So, 1974.


Another link:
http://www.ozarkzen.org/history.html

[sean dixie]

posted at 4:21, being kept awake mate? :eek:

hope all is well for you and Nat.

[David Dunn]

Sean, there must be something up with your clock/region settings. It says 11.21am for me, which is about right. I've been having Zzzs at 4.21am :)

[tony_leith]

and why it still worries me that Kongo zen is in the process of being extirpated from the formal instruction of Shorinjikempo outside Japan. It's clear from the Tokuhon that even shorn of any overtly 'religious' elements, as a mode of training Shorinjikempo still aspires to be a 'gyo' i.e aimed at improving societies by enabling individuals to improve themselves.

However, I think that as far as Kaiso was concerned Shorinjikempo was above all an 'access point' for a - for want of better term - spiritual way of life for individuals who after all have to continue living in modern globalised societies (i.e. by and large, retreating up a mountain will not be a viable option, nor as others have pointed out is it likely to make that much difference to the world at large).

As far as I understand it Kaiso also wanted to revitalise Buddhism, and get it away from being a ritualised/formalised concatenation of superstitious practices. He's prety vituperative in the Kyohan about many aspects of tradaitional Japanese religious practices. I think he wanted to get back to what he perceived as the original significance of the message of Buddhism - ie directed at the manner in which people live and experience their lives in the here and now - and discard the several thousand years worth of mystical excrescences.

This mission may never have been likely to succeed totally, but it's difficult to see abandoning Kongo Zen per se as anything but a partial retreat from the extent of Kaiso's intentions/ambitions for ShorinjiKempo as a 'revitalised philosophical martial art'. I may not have a formal syllabus to learn from, but I still consider myself to be (to the extent that I can identify myself with any body of thought I did not personally originate) an adherent of Kongo Zen. It's the glue which has stuck me to ShorinjiKempo for fourteen years, and I'm not capable of being such a hypocrite as to now say that it doesn't mean anything to me now.

Tony Leith

[Louie Dickens]

That made me think about the goal, risoukyou...

Is is possible? I have not studied anything on utopia or whatever, but to me, it means heaven/peace on earth, no? But what does it mean practically? Is there no anger? No fighting at all?

Are we really going for world peace, or for a more peaceful world? My instructor at busen told me flat out that no, it was impossible, but we had to try. Ha ha, but he is a cynic, can you guess which instructor? :rolleyes:

I don't know, but it seems to be that part of the reason the organization is changing so rapidly and letting go of many things is that we are running out of time. People are really harming the earth, and something has got to give. The wars, the weapons... A lot of books (it seems) like The power of now by Eckhart Tolle talk about the need for a change worldwide to stop from blowing this world up. He calls everyone insane ;)

Anyways, it seems to me that yes, it would be nice to keep all the old traditions but by being "religious" they are maybe being held back. I think the huge changes in busen in the recent years is a neat example. After the year I graduated, I think they changed it so you didn't even have to practice kempo (or have a white belt or something) to get in. Basically they were trying to increase the access.
By "letting go" of these "attachments" (hey, Kaiso is dead!) the organization can get to schools etc easier, I am guessing. Again, by changing ourselves, we can be like water, and get in through the cracks.
Maybe the top is considering that at the rate of war/destruction/blah right now, we have to ACT lots and fast.

So, again, I agree with the changes. I mean, all of the Kongo Zen stuff is fluff anyways, trying to explain the unexplainable, unthinkable. I think it is all just manifestations of dharma, which is unity. All we have to do is live half for others and half for ourselves (or is it the other way around?) ;)

In the end, any attachment to a religion (kongo zen or whatever) will be a barrier to enlightenment. Attachment is one of the big sins, I think? But hey I am no buddhism know it guy. ;)

Very interesting post by the way, Tony, it was greeeeeeeeaaaat!

[David Dunn]

(In case not everyone knows what "risokyo" is, it's 'utopia' or 'ideal world' :) )

I think it's the same as enlightenment and daily practice. The goal is way in the future, but it is important to make daily efforts towards it.

[tony_leith]

By "letting go" of these "attachments" (hey, Kaiso is dead!) the organization can get to schools etc easier, I am guessing. Again, by changing ourselves, we can be like water, and get in through the cracks.
Maybe the top is considering that at the rate of war/destruction/blah right now, we have to ACT lots and fast.

So, again, I agree with the changes. I mean, all of the Kongo Zen stuff is fluff anyways, trying to explain the unexplainable, unthinkable. I think it is all just manifestations of dharma, which is unity. All we have to do is live half for others and half for ourselves (or is it the other way around?) ;)

In the end, any attachment to a religion (kongo zen or whatever) will be a barrier to enlightenment. Attachment is one of the big sins, I think? But hey I am no buddhism know it guy. ;)



Sorry for editing your post, Louie. You make some interesting points, but I think miss mine (which is no crime, and may be mostly attribuitable to me not making it very clear in the first place).

Firstly, I pretty strongly disagree about Kongo zen being 'fluff', much as would object to it being characterised as a religion in the sense of say Roman Catholicism or Islam. For me the journey of self exploration that Shorinjikempo implies includes (but does not necessarily prescribe ) addressing the most profound existential questions, and I think retreating from this is pandering to some of the more profoundly destructive forces at work in our society/culture - the relentless drive towards homogenization/commodification endemic in globalized capitalism.

I'm personally less worried about us blowing up the earth than us just chewing it up and spitting it out. Trying to produce people who might be capable of resisting the programming we all get all the time to go along with this (or any other dominant assumptions of our societies, and pace Marx their ruling elements, at least to the extent of being able to question it/them, is no easy thing.

Eliding Kongo Zen - and I think by implications it's still there, 'between the lines' - is not doing either us or this ultimate aim any favours IMHO. If Shorinjikempo is going to end up down the route of becoming a fighting sport a la much of karate/judo, I for one wouldn't see the particular point of practising it - there are any number of effective fighting systems, some of them much more immediately useful in terms of inflicting harm on opponents/assailants.

Tony leith

I'm not saying this is inevitable, but it does strike me as a very real possibility.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Last edited by tony_leith : Yesterday at 20:23. Reason: clarity


I loved that one ;) ... please make more posts Tony, they brighten up this forum as they did on E-Budo. My vocabulary is increased each time I read one.