View Full Version : Prison Guards Forbidden To Wear Protective Gear.
I found this yesterday in another forum.This is so f***ing ridiculous it's insane.
What is this world coming to.
What's next, remove the concertina wire and wall, remove the weapons from the towers because it give the impressions that your'e dangerous and belong in jail.
For God sakes this is bullsh*t.
Wed, March 17, 2004
Prison guards forbidden to wear protective gear
By DOUG BEAZLEY, SUN MEDIA
EDMONTON -- Corrections Canada won't let guards at maximum security prisons wear stab-proof vests because it sends a confrontational "signal" to prisoners. "If you have that kind of presence symbolized by (a stab-proof vest), you're sending a signal to the prisoner that you consider him to be a dangerous person," said Tim Krause.
"It interferes with what we call 'dynamic security.' We want staff to talk to prisoners, to see how they're doing."
Last month, Sun Media reported a guard at the Edmonton Institution was threatened with disciplinary action several times by prison brass for wearing a self-purchased stab-proof vest on the job.
The guard, who asked not to be named, said he intends to keep wearing the Kevlar vest.
"Yes, I'm violating the rules. But management is stepping on my right to defend myself," he said.
Kevin Grabowsky, of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, said the notion that inmates might be "offended" is a "complete crock."
Tree Huggers. The same people who treat/ reason with their kids like adults from age seven and then wonder why their kids are running the house at 13.
Andrew Green
04-25-2005, 09:36
you're sending a signal to the prisoner that you consider him to be a dangerous person," said Tim Krause.
*Scratches head*
Imagine that, dangerous people in jail.... who would have thought?
I'd "hope" this is more about uniformity then anything else.
The problem for me is that it's in maximum security prisons. People get sent to maximum security prisons because a judge has felt that they pose a significant danger to society, the prison system, fellow prisoners, and often themselves that warrants them being kept in the highest level of security available.
Not everyone that gets locked up is especially dangerous, but these people are specifically thought to be, and should be treated with caution.
Gene Williams
04-25-2005, 10:13
It is Canada, for Christ's sake! I'm surprised they don't make the guards wear knickers and beanies and carry fru fru cheerleader batons. :D
A stab vest sends a signal that they are "dangerous"? Really? Huh.
I guess not letting them out of their cages without a few pounds of chains just sends a signal that they need to "accessorize" more?
Does the Canadian corrections system also offer shiv making workshops? I dont see why not? They arnt going to use them anyway... They arnt really dangerous people right?
Tree Huggers.
Hey, I'm a tree hugger!
I believe strongly that people should be given appropriate and proper tools to do their jobs. I'm an American and so it's not appropriate for me to critisize (sp?) another contires government but, I think that it is insane for correctional officers to not have protective vests.
Cliff Hargrave
04-25-2005, 11:36
I'm an American and so it's not appropriate for me to critisize (sp?) another contires government .....
Warning, thread drift..........
Why not? Other countries don't mind criticizing us. What about countries that are horrible on human rights? Will you criticize mass executions, torture, starvation, and abuse of citizens. I believe we have the right to speak up about anything, no matter where it happens.
As for the original article, just goes to show how far the leftist mind set has ingrained itself in the west. We have plenty of examples of this here in the USA. The current campaign against the Taser and before that against OC spray are prime examples. Some believe that if we are just nice to predators that they will not hurt us. A serious, flawed, utopian idea.
I could see point on discussions about chemical Mace, or Taser, or firearm, or any (possible) weapon limitations, registration, carry or use (you know, I'm just soft-hearted European ;)).. but safety vests are, as said, projective gear .. you really can't use them as weapon, or can you :confused: :confused: ?
With respect,
Riku Ylönen
If you want to badly enough you can change just about anything into a offensive weopon. For instance one could probably smother someone with a protective vest or course one could also do the same thing with a pillow...
Cliff Hargrave
04-25-2005, 12:55
My partner at work sells black leather police gloves on the side. One model has kevlar lining to help prevent pokes and cuts by sharp objects like needles and blades. Several of the jailers purchased them since they spend a large amount of time searching prisoners, especially when they first come into the jail. Then some boss at the jail decided the black gloves looked too intimidating and banned the jailers from wearing them. We certainly wouldn't want to intimidate a criminal entering a correctional facility, it might hurt their feelings.
Gene Williams
04-25-2005, 13:22
We need to do away with the electric chair and have electric bleachers. We could tell all the felons they were going to a ball game. :)
I found this yesterday in another forum.This is so f***ing ridiculous it's insane.
What is this world coming to.
What's next, remove the concertina wire and wall, remove the weapons from the towers because it give the impressions that your'e dangerous and belong in jail.
For God sakes this is bullsh*t.
Wed, March 17, 2004
Prison guards forbidden to wear protective gear
By DOUG BEAZLEY, SUN MEDIA
EDMONTON -- Corrections Canada won't let guards at maximum security prisons wear stab-proof vests because it sends a confrontational "signal" to prisoners. "If you have that kind of presence symbolized by (a stab-proof vest), you're sending a signal to the prisoner that you consider him to be a dangerous person," said Tim Krause.
"It interferes with what we call 'dynamic security.' We want staff to talk to prisoners, to see how they're doing."
Last month, Sun Media reported a guard at the Edmonton Institution was threatened with disciplinary action several times by prison brass for wearing a self-purchased stab-proof vest on the job.
The guard, who asked not to be named, said he intends to keep wearing the Kevlar vest.
"Yes, I'm violating the rules. But management is stepping on my right to defend myself," he said.
Kevin Grabowsky, of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, said the notion that inmates might be "offended" is a "complete crock."
Abbax8's simple solution to the prevention of STUPIDITY
No person is permitted to make any rule whatsoever until they have personally worked under the conditions they are attmepting to enforce, NO EXCEPTIONS!
Peace
Dennis
Stupid quesion of the hour: is it possible to make such gear less conspicuous? Like brown or tan gloves, for example?
Gene Williams
04-25-2005, 16:57
I think some bone colored gloves with heels to match and a textured clutch purse in the same tones would be nice.
Gentlemen,
While as a martial artist I can see your point and outrage. the use of leather gloves with kelvar lining is about the only sane choice.
As for body armor.
I was a prisoner in a federal prison for a decade. I have seen everything from the USP to the FCI low. I am not a "convict" and those who are in this field will understand what that means. I was independant.
Now, at a medium I spent a few years at the SORT (special operations response team) all wore the same uniforms and even austrailian outback hats when the weren't in riot gear. It was to send a signal to the institution. That is the key thing here, EVERYTHING the staff does sends signals to the inamtes be it intentional or not. Prisoners read motive and intent in every action by staff. This wardrobe choice only singled them out as combatants and created an air of challenge even in the most timid of inmates.
The use of body armor by staff would have possibly provoked me in several situations where I was at conflict with staff to respond with equal force. I will commend the federal bureau of prisons as while they did screw the pooch on occasion, they did maintain control of some real A@@holes and using fair and respectful methods. And I am not a cop lover. I have no complaints about the use of violence by guards having been in three institutional and race riots.
Everytime they first tried to work it out.
No, at the USP level (max security) you are often dealing with the insane. I have been there and yes, I will assure you, tasers and pepper gas would be justified at times.
The thing is, while inmates will always "run" prisons, the guards are the landowners. Inmates at all levels (with exception of Florence ADX) are allowed to make most of the daily decisions. It is a part of the school of thought that prison is meant to rehabilitate and not punish. Which yes, is arguable both ways. It is also a trade off, a signal. Inamtes are allowed a degree of self determiniation in excahnge for reasonable behavior.
For staff though, and I say this as evenhandedly as I can.
It is best not to be confrontational as the average unit hack migh be walking amongst a few hundred inmates with only 3-4 other guards in the immediate area. Body armor will not save him against those numbers. Not even a stun grenade.
Yes, it is reasonable that guards have access to such equipment. But in the feds they won't hesitate to call in the military who has far worse toys.
I end this with this thought.
Everyone here is hopefully a man trying to better themselves and better the world in the process. We hopefully learn there are battles you fight and ones you pass on. You don't need to respond to every challenge, only the ones that matter. By guards taking such an offensive posture they will leave themselves prone to respond with the tools at hand, violence and do it everytime. This response will only beget more violence; often when it was avoidable. But, yes there are times when you must fight.
I hope someone reading this who is a leo or guard will realize, short of the truly crazy, most of the people they are dealing with are more afraid of them than they are of the criminal.
With respect,
brad "g2" groceman
Ok maybe I read you wrong.
You're telling me that wearing a stab/puncture resistant vest, which are just as thin, as a regular vest and worn underneath the uniform, gives the wrong image.
That's a crock of sh*t.
We're not talking about walking into a day room in full SWAT/SORT gear.
We're talking about the safety of officers on a daily basis.
When it come to the safey of LEO's, the hell with what the prisoners think. On second thought I want them to know that if they f*** with me there will be hell to pay.
It f***** amazes me that prisoners are giving more rights than the victims they attacked to get in there in the first place.
Dennis Monk
04-25-2005, 23:06
Several of the jailers purchased them since they spend a large amount of time searching prisoners, especially when they first come into the jail. Then some boss at the jail decided the black gloves looked too intimidating and banned the jailers from wearing them.
That guy got fired a few years ago. When the new captain came in we all had our gloves back. No one told him that they had been dis-allowed in the past. :D
The use of body armor by staff would have possibly provoked me in several situations where I was at conflict with staff to respond with equal force.
I can only respond by saying that your words speak about your character.
If an inmate feels threatened and intimidated by any safety gear, special munitions or specialized training that correctional officers have at their disposal, GOOD! Sometimes the fear of having your *** whipped keeps you from doing things that you know you shouldn't. If that alone is reason enough for an inmate to keep in line, then that is fine with me. I work with inmates everyday. I deal with some of our county's worst people and get along just fine; not because we have a friendly relationship with the residents of the "cross bar hotel" but because they know when we are treated with respect they will get it in return. Our inmates also know that if they feel the need to threaten or assault staff, or engage in acts which tend to disrupt the jail climate; they will be treated in a less than respectful manner. The mere fact that our inmates know that we have "special" tools with which to deal with disturbances keeps us from having to use them most of the time. Some of our best tool are the safety gear items themselves. Impact and stab resistant vest are a great idea, and I like the idea of the kind that fits under the uniform. As I said, we have some of the worst come through our doors, and we are a county jail. I think every state and federal C/O's uniform should include a stab resistant vest. I don't care if that offends some felon, because he made the choices in life which got him there in the first place.
Sir, I am clear of the system and in truth could care less what happens to guards or inamtes that are still there. I am just an observer at this point. I have no real interest in the matter either way and was contributing to YOUR forum so all voices and angles could be heard. I can say I see your perspective but I can also say I have seen many guards who took such perspectives and they often created more problems than they solved (no inference upon you, just in general). As for establishing dominance in the criminal justice system I am personally a libertarian/facist. I just want one method. Either rehabilitate or punish. Either way, stay consistent. I can only recommend that what ever society deems the right choice, that they look down the road a generation or two and envision what they will have when they reach that goal. I have been to gladiator school and came out in one piece. I also, for the record see nothing wrong with under the shirt conceable vests- as far as a negative impact upon the stability of a prison-- but as for your "fu#k em atttude." well, I agree. F#ck everyone. that willingly or unwillingly works or stays in such a place. It is a lair of misery and dispair and it takes a sick mind to thrive in there. Thankfully I "escaped" with some humanity intact. If it's a job, I respect you and wish you well. We all are just trying to make it. If it's a recreational thing, then you are no better than the criminals who reside in there. Predators come with and without badges.
In the end, I know that some of the guards there actually had a positive impact upon life. By showing reason and compassion at such times they reminded me that the entire world wasn't sh!t. That has no small effect upon my release and reintegration into society. I thank them for that.
I hope to continue an intelligent dialogue in this forum (budoseek) and show respect to all who post and read here.
thank you.
Brad "g2 groceman
Dennis Monk
04-25-2005, 23:14
F#ck everyone. that willingly or unwillingly works or stays in such a place.
I willingly work in such a place. So F#ck me huh?
The thin ice on which you stand is melting. Keep it up, and you will find yourself gone.
I am going to retire from this thread as there is too much testosterone present. If you wish to hunt the pin stripped convict, I wish you good hunting. Most of your brethern though just want to make it through the shift and get home to their families and to them, I wish them luck. And yes, we all made choices that put us there, even the guards my friends. Put yourself in danger and eventually lady fortune frowns upon you. We all do what we do for a reason and will live with the consequences whether we want to or not.
repsectfully signing off,
Brad "g2" groceman
Dennis Monk
04-25-2005, 23:32
You say you have retired from this thread, howver you have been looking at it waiting for another reply for 10 minutes now. OK here goes. You say, "If you wish to hunt the pin stripped convict, I wish you good hunting."
Is that to mean that I, or any one of the other C/O's here go to work looking for a reason to harass inmates? If so you are sad, and sadly mistaken. The thread has drifted way off from its original topic, and for that I have to admit partial responsibility. I will not, however listen to an ex-con spouting off at the mouth about how if he saw a prison guard wearing a stab resistant vest, that would have provoked him into using force against an officer. And as far as lady fortune finally frowning, her face has changed expression with me many times. I have had everything from stiches to broken bones. Yes, it has a tendency to go with the job. If it weren't for those of us that were willing to to do this, people of your ilk would have free reign on the rest of society.
Sorry, was washing clothes and left my browser open. Just got back it is quite closed now as is this thread. Your humanity and intelligence only reinforces my opinion of those here. Signing off this thread and in truth this forum as you people truly scare me.
respectful as i can be,
peace out.
g2
Dennis Monk
04-25-2005, 23:37
Good riddence.
ninjandrew
04-26-2005, 03:50
Its called a paradigm people. Sometimes we need to shift it to see where other people are coming from.
I can see where g_2 is coming from. Consider this...
In an attempt to reduce groping occurences on Japanese public trains, women only cars have been introduced to several lines. These groping occurences happen most frequently during rush hour, when the trains are so full that `people pushers` are needed to help squeeze as many passengers into the cars as possible.
Last week a Japanese man was arrested for groping a women on the train. In his defense he stated:
If she didnt want to be groped, she would have boarded the women only car.
Thats what a criminal said.
David Craik
04-26-2005, 04:58
Anything that can make the officers safer, I say give it to them. That article is the most outrageous thing I've read in a while.
RA Miller
04-26-2005, 15:06
Couple of things-
I do this for a living and I do see where Brad is coming from. If only one officer wears a vest, he's doing it because he's scared and he will be marked as a victim.
If everyone wears it, it becomes a uniform issue and the people who do their job well and without fear will also be safer. I do think Brad was very polite in his first post, offering a perspective that officers need to hear (and evaluate sceptically) and was aware that he might upset some people. I thank him for it.
I am pissed that any safety gear would be outlawed, especially if someone on the line feels it's necessary. Their dynamic model or our direct supervision works very well, but the cost is very high when it doesn't.
I'm even more pissed because there was a big furor a couple of years ago when a Canadian court ruled that an inmate couldn't be disciplined for carrying a shank "for his own protection". The combination of giving inmates a right to weapons (if the ruling wasn't overturned) and denying officers a right to armor is truly insane.
Rory
John Lucas
04-26-2005, 17:49
Just my Opinion...
It seems pretty unlikely that the gear is whats causing the prisoners to become violent. But even if it was, Not wearing it is not going to stop the violence, so shouldnt the people risking their lives to keep them inside have everything available to protect themselves?
I am shocked that stab-proof vests arent provided. Maybe we should stop locking up non-violent criminals (Which makes them become violent) And use the billions of dollars we would save to better protect and outfit our officers who are risking their lives daily.
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